*Triggers Possible* Is it normal to believe that only males are abusers and only females are victims, even as a male victim of female abuse?

[Syans]

This was something I realize that I struggle with. I instinctually believe that only women can be victims of abuse and only men can be aggressors even though I have been taken advantage of in the past by women

I was just recently reading a short story about a male abuser and the plot twist was that his wife was the actual abuser who would call the police on him if he retaliated. I was doing annotation on the story and had to re read it several times before I realized the point was that he was completely innocent.

I have an issue with that a lot in real life as well. Women will take advantage of me or lie to me and even though I realize they are being dishonest I still feel like I have to do what they say because I am a male and in my mind males are inherently predatory and females are inherently victims.

Even when I post stuff on this forum my main audience I have in mind is not men who are members of this forum, but women who will find the posts off of Google searches and then take screenshots to discuss on reddit and the like. I am always afraid that my posts will be screenshotted and women will turn it into a copypasta or something to make fun of me.

Is this normal? I try to think of men as being victims of abuse by women and I just can't. I am sure if I believed that then I would see myself as a victim of abuse by females. It is like there is a wall in my mind. I don't see any value in seeing myself as a victim of female abuse because the whole point of the world is to make sure that women get better. If men get better then that is a waste of resources because there is no point. I don't understand how the world could be a better place if I realized I was mistreated. That would involve implicating women in my life and I don't want to do that because they would get upset.

 

[Strangeways]

The conditioning from society and from our own female abusers is so strong that yes, it is perfectly possible for us to deny our own victimhood. I did it myself for years. My own abuser, my ex-wife, drilled it into me over and over that I was a rapist and an abuser. I was not. It was very much the opposite - she was the only rapist and abuser. I was the victim.

You can't think of men as victims because that would upset the worldview that you have worked so hard to create - one where you are solely to blame and your abusers are not evil. But they are. And while you deny your own victimhood, you are denying the victimhood of every other man who has ever been abused by a woman.

My friend, it really happens. It happened to me. I thoroughly reject your attempt to deny my experience. Furthermore I am not an abuser nor a rapist, I never was, and I never will be, and I reject your accusations that I and all men are inherently predators.

I believe most men are good people. You won't hear that from society, and you won't hear that from abusers, but it is true. You are a good person, whether you believe it or not. And I think if you can manage to get out of your relationships with abusive women, it will be much easier for you to realize the good in yourself.

 

[Wharf_Rat]

I have no difficulty seeing that men are sometimes the victims and women are sometimes the abusers. I've seen it throughout my life with my own eyes. The trouble is, most people I know won't believe it because they weren't there to see it themselves.

 

[WanderingSpaceTurtle]

Could it be heavy social pressure and clinging to normality in order to avoid the notion that any woman could be an abuser, and you wouldn't know it. Comfortable lies.

I'm the opposite; more prone to trusting men and have a mild issue with even going to public places; often seeing women as a whole as abusers. My history included mostly women within family, friend groups, teachers/faculty, and even random strangers. One man (school principal) groped, and did the least physical damage, but probably the worst social damage.

I struggle in public because I automatically view women all as potential rapists. Irrational, but there's a real fear after random strangers do it in broad daylight and I'm banned from a store which automatically assumed the woman was in trouble, and called the police on me while her hand was still in my pants. I struggle because the abuse came from all sides for years as a toddler, child, and teen.

When I've tried coming forward with the issues, especially in a legal sense, it was always met with incredulity or outright dismissal including the police (who called me a "lucky boy.") After contacting literally hundreds of lawyers in the state, none of them willing to take my case at all (mostly because it was against a school - nobody cared about incest problems and often mocked me for bringing it up). "Just move on," or the police told me to vacate and started pulling their weapons, refusing to take any form of statement because they saw it as impossible and offensive that I'd suggest a woman could drug and rape a man.

Those are things I've dealt with in life. Speaking out about it cost me all but 2 people who I thought were friends. Being socially labeled as a deviant when I was the victim is beyond infuriating, and the law's complacency and allowance of women to rape and abuse with impunity kinda puts it over the edge for me. The best perpetrator is the one nobody suspects.

 

[Gsnymede]

My two cents - the general public will find the concept of a male victim easier to accept than the idea of a female abuser. Stereotyping and wrong-thinking on the part of the general public on the topic of female abusers is very strong.

 

[Syans]

My two cents - the general public will find the concept of a male victim easier to accept than the idea of a female abuser. Stereotyping and wrong-thinking on the part of the general public on the topic of female abusers is very strong.

In my view, the general public seems to reduce sex abuse into an active / passive binary: when I talk to other people about sex abuse they seem to view it as a problem that can only be solved by restricting/ punishing etc. The perpetrator, with the victim not really needing to change their behaviour because they are seen as completely disempowered and weak and whatever.

I think people will accept male victims but not female abusers because the motivations for sex abuse perpetrators are commonly perceived to be related to power, lust control etc. That are all traditionally considered male traits. And the aspects of a victim are seen to be passivity, fear, helplessness, which are usually considered female traits.

I don't know if this view is backed up or not, but my opinion is that excessive feelings of victimization, helplessness, loss of control can drive perpetration of sex abuse just as much as power and domination feelings can. with the cause being that a person feels so helpless and out of control that they see people with less power as them as aggressors and then sexually abuse them as revenge for perceived inequalities that are not actually there

I don't like handling of sex abuse that treats victims as completely powerless and without help because I think that too much dis-empowerment can justify negative treatment of weaker people

 

[Syans]

The conditioning from society and from our own female abusers is so strong that yes, it is perfectly possible for us to deny our own victimhood. I did it myself for years. My own abuser, my ex-wife, drilled it into me over and over that I was a rapist and an abuser. I was not. It was very much the opposite - she was the only rapist and abuser. I was the victim.

You can't think of men as victims because that would upset the worldview that you have worked so hard to create - one where you are solely to blame and your abusers are not evil. But they are. And while you deny your own victimhood, you are denying the victimhood of every other man who has ever been abused by a woman.

My friend, it really happens. It happened to me. I thoroughly reject your attempt to deny my experience. Furthermore I am not an abuser nor a rapist, I never was, and I never will be, and I reject your accusations that I and all men are inherently predators.

I believe most men are good people. You won't hear that from society, and you won't hear that from abusers, but it is true. You are a good person, whether you believe it or not. And I think if you can manage to get out of your relationships with abusive women, it will be much easier for you to realize the good in yourself.

I feel like sometimes the idea that the victim is a rapist/abuser comes from a feeling of excessive feelings of victimization from the perpetrator.

I used to see myself as a bad person rapist/whatever and you're right I do think it was because they explicitly told me that.

At one point when I was a teen I suddenly started believing there was a "rape epidemic" that could only be solved by surgically altering males at birth to lower their testosterone by removing one of the testicles. I have no idea where this idea came from or why I suddenly believed it so strongly

 

[Syans]

Could it be heavy social pressure and clinging to normality in order to avoid the notion that any woman could be an abuser, and you wouldn't know it. Comfortable lies.

I'm the opposite; more prone to trusting men and have a mild issue with even going to public places; often seeing women as a whole as abusers. My history included mostly women within family, friend groups, teachers/faculty, and even random strangers. One man (school principal) groped, and did the least physical damage, but probably the worst social damage.

I struggle in public because I automatically view women all as potential rapists. Irrational, but there's a real fear after random strangers do it in broad daylight and I'm banned from a store which automatically assumed the woman was in trouble, and called the police on me while her hand was still in my pants. I struggle because the abuse came from all sides for years as a toddler, child, and teen.

When I've tried coming forward with the issues, especially in a legal sense, it was always met with incredulity or outright dismissal including the police (who called me a "lucky boy.") After contacting literally hundreds of lawyers in the state, none of them willing to take my case at all (mostly because it was against a school - nobody cared about incest problems and often mocked me for bringing it up). "Just move on," or the police told me to vacate and started pulling their weapons, refusing to take any form of statement because they saw it as impossible and offensive that I'd suggest a woman could drug and rape a man.

Those are things I've dealt with in life. Speaking out about it cost me all but 2 people who I thought were friends. Being socially labeled as a deviant when I was the victim is beyond infuriating, and the law's complacency and allowance of women to rape and abuse with impunity kinda puts it over the edge for me. The best perpetrator is the one nobody suspects.

I used to see all women as sexually abusive too and was uncomfortable around them. I am still kind of uncomfortable around women but I think I feel a lot safer around ones that I am not physically attracted to/envious of.

I used to think that I was attracted to women but now I think I am attracted to guys. I think my desire to be heterosexual allowed me to be taken advantage of. I am now cautious of what I consider to be "attraction towards women" because I have no idea if those feelings are legitimate or not.

My view of what men are has been very negative and scary for a long time. My view of what "gay sex" is has also been very repulsive and unwanted. I think I kind of hold on to the all men are abuser idea because it keeps me away from them and in denial about my sexuality. I've kind of started to realize that men do not act the way I was afraid they do and that makes me feel strange.

 

[WanderingSpaceTurtle]

I feel like sometimes the idea that the victim is a rapist/abuser comes from a feeling of excessive feelings of victimization from the perpetrator.

I used to see myself as a bad person rapist/whatever and you're right I do think it was because they explicitly told me that.

At one point when I was a teen I suddenly started believing there was a "rape epidemic" that could only be solved by surgically altering males at birth to lower their testosterone by removing one of the testicles. I have no idea where this idea came from or why I suddenly believed it so strongly

Most US males are already surgically altered without their consent...usually at birth. It's culturally acceptable, but men (IMO) are not even given the chance for their natural body. I wonder if the mass cutting has an effect in the background. We know that trauma in early, formative years, causes future responses. The whole procedure of cutting is not regulated at all. Anyone (literally) can do it without repercussions.

EDIT: I'll add that if the same procedure done to an infant were done to an adult without consent, I've had attorneys claim it could be seen as rape by an instrument, sexual assault, genital mutilation, and otherwise abuse with the man able to file civil and possibly criminal lawsuits. This is not afforded to *any* male baby. The choice is given to the male baby's parents, while females are protected from any form of cutting (breaks 14th amendment). "Intersex" kids have it every bit as bad, if not worse, than the typical male infant. Cosmetic surgery has no place, but we have conned ourselves into believing it. I have confirmed nerve damage (amputation neuromas on the scar) as well as other nerve damage at the frenulum area (where it would be) due to cutting too deep. I survived blood-soaked diapers and infection, UTIs, stenosis and had to have the opening cut open (more surgery). It's horrible, what I'm left with is difficult to even look at most days. I hate what my parents did, and it was done on purpose even when they knew it caused damage and wasn't needed. Sorry for the diatribe/soapbox, but that one is a horror show I wake up to every morning, and is an unfixable, unacceptable problem in my life.

I can also speak to having low T as a teen, and in late childhood. I spent 30 years dealing with it because doctors outright refused to look at the damage. I was repeatedly kicked at age 10 until my left testicle ruptured. This happened in school, and because it was a girl doing it (while wearing steel-toed boots on purpose) she was blessed by the school system, faculty, etc. I was told that I deserved it for being a boy, and if it causes damage, good. Low-T, numbness, nerve damage and a nasty varicocele are all part of that. It caused sporadic episodes of puberty afterward. I'd have about 6-9 months of feeling "normal" followed by about 1.5 years of depression, numbness, absence of libido. My parents condemned me for not dating instead of asking why.

After literally 30 years of trying to get help, a urologist *finally* tested my T levels and realized that I basically had none. One might be working, but it wasn't great, and the adrenals provided about as much. I went on replacement, which caused another bout of puberty. Physical changes have taken, and are still taking place from that.

I've lived with that, and I will tell you that it's hell. The depression is so dark that most days I fought eating a bullet, and it went on like that, hidden, for decades, until I had a plan and started following through with it, which resulted in some nasty backlash. My sister broke contact with me during this time, and a lot of friends abandoned. Basically had my family, and a couple childhood friends who knew the damage. I don't wish that on anyone. I know you may have delusions about how damaging males are, but I will say that I personally survived views like that, and all it left with me is unadulterated hatred for 99.99% of the world. There is no justice to make me whole, and there is no repair. All I can do is live with the pain and now live on Testosterone replacement for however long I have left. It's miserable. It's embarrassing, demeaning to live this way, but that's all I have.

End the male hatred. We are not the problems; we are most often the victims, from our day of birth until we die...we don't have rights to our own bodies (or genitals in particular), and the law upholds that. When our society recognizes the damage caused to men by treating them this way, we may see some change. Don't count on it in the next 50 years, IMO. Society is not ready to see men as humans in my experiences.

 

[Syans]

Most US males are already surgically altered without their consent...usually at birth. It's culturally acceptable, but men (IMO) are not even given the chance for their natural body. I wonder if the mass cutting has an effect in the background. We know that trauma in early, formative years, causes future responses. The whole procedure of cutting is not regulated at all. Anyone (literally) can do it without repercussions.

EDIT: I'll add that if the same procedure done to an infant were done to an adult without consent, I've had attorneys claim it could be seen as rape by an instrument, sexual assault, genital mutilation, and otherwise abuse with the man able to file civil and possibly criminal lawsuits. This is not afforded to *any* male baby. The choice is given to the male baby's parents, while females are protected from any form of cutting (breaks 14th amendment). "Intersex" kids have it every bit as bad, if not worse, than the typical male infant. Cosmetic surgery has no place, but we have conned ourselves into believing it. I have confirmed nerve damage (amputation neuromas on the scar) as well as other nerve damage at the frenulum area (where it would be) due to cutting too deep. I survived blood-soaked diapers and infection, UTIs, stenosis and had to have the opening cut open (more surgery). It's horrible, what I'm left with is difficult to even look at most days. I hate what my parents did, and it was done on purpose even when they knew it caused damage and wasn't needed. Sorry for the diatribe/soapbox, but that one is a horror show I wake up to every morning, and is an unfixable, unacceptable problem in my life.

I can also speak to having low T as a teen, and in late childhood. I spent 30 years dealing with it because doctors outright refused to look at the damage. I was repeatedly kicked at age 10 until my left testicle ruptured. This happened in school, and because it was a girl doing it (while wearing steel-toed boots on purpose) she was blessed by the school system, faculty, etc. I was told that I deserved it for being a boy, and if it causes damage, good. Low-T, numbness, nerve damage and a nasty varicocele are all part of that. It caused sporadic episodes of puberty afterward. I'd have about 6-9 months of feeling "normal" followed by about 1.5 years of depression, numbness, absence of libido. My parents condemned me for not dating instead of asking why.

After literally 30 years of trying to get help, a urologist *finally* tested my T levels and realized that I basically had none. One might be working, but it wasn't great, and the adrenals provided about as much. I went on replacement, which caused another bout of puberty. Physical changes have taken, and are still taking place from that.

I've lived with that, and I will tell you that it's hell. The depression is so dark that most days I fought eating a bullet, and it went on like that, hidden, for decades, until I had a plan and started following through with it, which resulted in some nasty backlash. My sister broke contact with me during this time, and a lot of friends abandoned. Basically had my family, and a couple childhood friends who knew the damage. I don't wish that on anyone. I know you may have delusions about how damaging males are, but I will say that I personally survived views like that, and all it left with me is unadulterated hatred for 99.99% of the world. There is no justice to make me whole, and there is no repair. All I can do is live with the pain and now live on Testosterone replacement for however long I have left. It's miserable. It's embarrassing, demeaning to live this way, but that's all I have.

End the male hatred. We are not the problems; we are most often the victims, from our day of birth until we die...we don't have rights to our own bodies (or genitals in particular), and the law upholds that. When our society recognizes the damage caused to men by treating them this way, we may see some change. Don't count on it in the next 50 years, IMO. Society is not ready to see men as humans in my experiences.

I don't think sex abuse and genital surgery are interchangeable in their impact

Sex abuse is more direct trauma, it is one event that is traumatic. genital surgery gets more trauma due to complications in the long term, it's not the procedure itself that is traumatic it is the experience afterwards

the experience of sex abuse causes the trauma, with less impact after the fact. the trauma related to genital surgery isn't the procedures themselves, it's the complications afterwards that are the problem

 

[TalentedMasker]

I believe this is completely normal. I’m a gay man and was forced to have sex with a female hooker due to my sexuality, and to this day it’s almost impossible for me to see her as an abuser or perpetrator. In my mind she seduced me, lured me, provoked me, whatever you say; but she didn’t abuse me.

I believe society conditions us to think this way and also, biologically, we are generally stronger than women so it’s hard to think of them as “capable” of such thing. But they are.

 

[Syans]

I believe this is completely normal. I’m a gay man and was forced to have sex with a female hooker due to my sexuality, and to this day it’s almost impossible for me to see her as an abuser or perpetrator. In my mind she seduced me, lured me, provoked me, whatever you say; but she didn’t abuse me.

I believe society conditions us to think this way and also, biologically, we are generally stronger than women so it’s hard to think of them as “capable” of such thing. But they are.

I consider myself a gay male too and I struggle with the idea that I am broken if I do not show attraction to women. I think I was more likely to be okay with sexual activity with women because I thought it would prove I was straight. If you don't mind me asking, did sex assault leave you with any lingering feelings that could be mistaken for sexual attraction?

 

[TalentedMasker]

I consider myself a gay male too and I struggle with the idea that I am broken if I do not show attraction to women. I think I was more likely to be okay with sexual activity with women because I thought it would prove I was straight. If you don't mind me asking, did sex assault leave you with any lingering feelings that could be mistaken for sexual attraction?

Yes, I’m still just as gay, but it left me with certain “erotic longing” towards the female body in general. It doesn’t really individualize itself into any one specific woman, but rather the female figure you could say.

That and the fact that the woman who assaulted me was very beautiful, so even when it comes up and I discuss it with someone, generally the answer is “oh well, at least she was hot”, as if that made her intentions / actions any better. Though, she was paid to do her job and was probably a victim of trafficking so I can’t really blame her either. She was just trying to follow orders and survive.


I understand your repulsion towards homosexuality may also come from cultural influence, so it’s totally comprehensible. If you ever want to talk, my messages are always open, I don’t mind

 

[WanderingSpaceTurtle]

I don't think sex abuse and genital surgery are interchangeable in their impact

Sex abuse is more direct trauma, it is one event that is traumatic. genital surgery gets more trauma due to complications in the long term, it's not the procedure itself that is traumatic it is the experience afterwards

the experience of sex abuse causes the trauma, with less impact after the fact. the trauma related to genital surgery isn't the procedures themselves, it's the complications afterwards that are the problem

I used to think so, too, though after looking into the topic more, and into early brain development with infants, I would say it can (and does) cause effects. As we haven't fully studied it, and the whole procedure is unregulated with very little study into long-term issues (none are studied) - that alone can cause mental health issues related to the trauma. Even if they don't remember it directly, that's not a great excuse since we don't treat date rape victims that way.

At the least, it is something we *must* as a culture look into. When one of the side effects is literally death (and yes, I've known of a couple kids who died from the operation) and we're operating on boys without their consent (leaving them to whatever results happen)...it's not much different treatment than being told we deserved to be abused, or that our personal choices and consent don't matter. If it happens to be called sexual assault on an adult without consent, and we recognize potential mental issues, then we should do the same for infants (but we don't).

I know for fact what mine has caused, and I'm not the only one who feels sexually abused by it. That the repeating nightmares/memories of it are intertwined with slightly later memories of toddlerhood sexual abuse cements the notion. I see no difference. Not everyone feels that way, but as I've looked into this topic for ~25 years and (re)read everything I can on it (both sides) I feel confident in my conclusion.

 

[Gsnymede]

When the American medical institutions introduced male circumcision it was explicitly as a form of sexual abuse meant to "cure" masturbation by inflicting trauma - as was their use of the procedures for severing the dorsal nerves and attaching needles to the foreskins of boys who masturbated. Dr Kellogg who also invented cornflakes was an advocate of this form of cruelty:

Dr. John Kellogg Invented Cereal. Some of His Other Wellness Ideas Were Much Weirder | HISTORY

Patients—including presidents and famed industrialists—flocked to his Battle Creek Sanitarium, where treatments included electrical currents to the eyeballs and 15-quart enemas.

www.history.com

"...he recommended circumcision without anesthetic—"as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind,” he wrote in his book, Plain Facts for Old and Young. Kellogg had an even more gruesome set of treatments for girls, including the application of pure carbolic acid to the clitoris or, in more extreme cases, surgical removal."

I am a circumcised man and I have no hesitation comparing male circumcision to the procedure for severing the dorsal nerve. However, different factors do complicate the topic of male circumcision that do not apply with the procedure for severing the dorsal nerve. For one thing, circumcision is sacred to certain religions and doctors who follow those religions are categorically not impartial about it. Also, it can be observed that some doctors who are circumcised men might show a psychological need to justify the procedure by attributing far-fetched benefits to it.