Who's fantasy is it anyway?

Who's fantasy is it anyway?
L

Lloydy

Registrant
"men who fantasize boylover or pedophile scenarios are framing their conceptualizations from the adult perspective.
With a boylover,he sodomizes a boy and turns the kid into a homosexual slut. The pedophile sexualizes a little girl and she becomes his slave mistress slut. This is dreamland stuff,not reality."


This is a small part of an email I recieved from a Survivor friend of mine, and it's part of a discussion we're having about "does man - boy abuse make you gay?" , which we both agree it doesn't.

So how come we grow up believing our abusers fantasies?
As my friend says, what we went through was THEIR adult fantasy, it wasn't ours, but they are often so clever that they transfer their fantasy to us, and we believe it.

Dave
 
Dave, do you really think we bought into our abuser's fantasies? I know I didn't. I didn't even know what their (his) fantasies were. I still don't. Nor do I care.

Quote:

"and it's part of a discussion we're having about 'does man - boy abuse make you gay?', which we both agree it doesn't."

I don't know if it makes you gay, but it sure doesn't promote healthy heterosexual behaviours.
My guess is that it triggers inappropriate behaviours both gay and straight.
Just my thoughts on it. Peace, Andrew
 
***TRIGGERS***

Painful as it is to admit it, I have to say I did buy into my abuser's fantasies. By the age of 12 he had convinced me that my own father didn't love me and considered me a failure as a son. During sexual encounters he got me to call him "Daddy", tell him "yes Daddy", and other things I will leave to the imagination.

It didn't happen overnight of course. But as your own sense of worth and self-respect is eroded away it is easy for the perp to replace it with whatever he wants. What else, if not his own fantasy, whatever that happens to be?

Larry
 
Triggers

I am not very familiar with this discussion, but I can share my feelings in the same vane. Sometimes, I feel like a good man and I stop self-destructing. However, I maybe easily triggered by the TV news discussing pedophiles. Also, I can be triggered by real life content. Then I just start to think differently, feel arousal, sexual feelings, and became sick. I have figured out recently that there is something in my mind very sensitive to such information, related to pedophiles. I feel constantly balancing between these feelings, and normal ones.

I think the idea of believing in the feelings of the perps is not based upon facts. However, I could by the power of will, and reason, stop the sexual arousal when I worked a lot on the issue of the perps' actions. If I deal with the pain I got in the childhood, and especially brought by the perps, I can control my sexual feelings. The point is that as the time passes, the feelings return.

Alexey
 
Originally posted by roadrunner:
***TRIGGERS***

During sexual encounters he got me to call him "Daddy", tell him "yes Daddy", and other things I will leave to the imagination.

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That's tough. It's triggering something in me. I don't know what. I need a break, some room to breath. Fck.

Sorry. I'm glad you said that. Just need to go.
 
During sexual encounters he got me to call him "Daddy", tell him "yes Daddy", and other things I will leave to the imagination.
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Wasn't that the abusers fantasy?

I guess each abuser has their own fantasy, or at least one particular type of abuser is fantasy driven.

Some are driven by the abuse of power, and their kicks come from having control, the older boy who groomed me initially then passed me onto his friend. His kick had been fulfilled, and although he did have sex with me again it wasn't regular, and he certainly showed no imagination as far as sex was concerned.

The older boy who took over however was a 'fantasy merchant' and made me enter his fantasies, and he was sexually and fantasy driven. He showed imagination ( I'm sorry, I can't think of a better way to describe it )towards sex.

Guess which of them had the greater influence on me?
The second one, because my young mind was an enquiring one that was looking for excitement in the tightly regulated boarding school environment, and he gave it to me. I've been trying to shake free of it ever since.

Dave
 
Dave - It wasn't a fantasy at all, was it? Fantasies may have precluded their actions, but it was reality we lived through. That reality involved inappropriate, damaging sexual actions and physical arousal. Right or wrong, obviously wrong in our scenarios, erotic feelings and actions that cause arousal are stamped on the psyche at the moment they happen. We're supposed to learn about sex with our peers, usually later in life than when the abuse occurred (I was 9 years old when it started). And, depending on our sexual orientation, we learn it with the gender we are attracted to, hopefully. I hadn't had sex yet, with a boy or a girl. I got aroused by my male abuser's touch, despite my fear and confusion. This lead to further confusion, in life and in fantasy. I am not gay, though I acted out with men.

The more I write in this post the more I feel my anger building. This was no fantasy at all, if only it had been, none of us would be here trying to sort these things out. I think your survivor friend is having some sort of delusional episode (no disrespect intended). And what is the difference between a 'boy-lover' (disgusting term to begin with) and a pedophile? Child predators, whether they are male or female preying on boys or girls don't need to be distinguished, they are one in the same. - John
 
John
Of course I was never suggesting that what happened was fantasy, only that fantasy fueled the actions of my one abuser, and I sometimes wonder where he gained such vivid fantasies at that age?

The original point I was trying to make is that what happened to us - stayed with us in some form or another. And some aspects are so deep rooted we don't seem able to shift them, I'm wondering why they're so deep rooted?

And why as a 52yo married man who has never looked at another man in any kind of sexual way i still have fantasies about giving bj's.

That train of fantasy has possibly gone through generations , and by that I mean it's been passed on in the wrong manner, and at the wrong time - abusively.

As you say "we're supposed to learn sex from our peers, usually later in life", but the whole process was shifted backwards and became indelibly set in our minds. And I think that's why it's so hard to shift.

Dave
 
***More triggers, I'm afraid ***

What Dave means, if I have understood all this correctly, is that when an abuser engages in acts of abuse he often tries to hide the fact that what he is doing is brutalizing an innocent frightened child. He covers this up by seeing his abuse or "performing" it in terms of some meaning or fantasy that he invents for himself. So he figures that he isn't really raping a child, or if he is, it doesn't matter. Why not? Because the child is already a homosexual slut anyway (example given by Dave's friend). Or because the child wanted it or liked it, whatever. We all know the drill.

This is on Dave's mind because he is wondering about this big question:

So how come we grow up believing our abusers fantasies? As my friend says, what we went through was THEIR adult fantasy, it wasn't ours, but they are often so clever that they transfer their fantasy to us, and we believe it.
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I guess this brings me back again to my own childhood, which I mentioned briefly on this thread. This is more of the same, for those of you who may not want to continue. Posting what I said already made me physically ill yesterday, but maybe it is something I need to get out. I could not include it all in the survivor story I posted awhile ago - wonder why?

My abuser was a Boy Scout leader and his fantasy was clearly something about a sick world in which boys exist to serve the sexual needs of "father" figures and should be grateful for the attentions of "Daddy". I was asthmatic as a child (and still am), and as the abuse continued my abuser gradually shifted from explaining how special I was in general to the revelation that my own father really didn't love me. I was too sick too often and was never going to be the macho sporty kid he wanted. My Dad was a tough guy who was disgusted that his only son was a bookworm who loved school. Blah blah blah. But HE of course loved me to bits, and that's why we were doing all these things. And for that I should of course be grateful - after all, it was for me, not for him. I should call him "Daddy", say "yes Daddy" when he asked did I want it, tell him "f*ck me Daddy" when he was in me, ask "Daddy" for more, and so on.

Why I bought into all this is still a huge question for me. One part of it was that my perp was clever and cruel. On scout outings the fathers would sometimes sit around in the evenings and chat, and I guess a lot of that would have been about their sons. So he would have had a framework of true things that would be enough to trick an 11-year-old kid into believing all the garbage he hung on it. I now know I wasn't the only one he hooked.

I guess the other part comes down to Dave's question. I was 11 and in those days a kid that age knew nothing about sex and really wasn't interested all that much. By the time I was 12, however, I had a full range of sexual experiences, all justified in terms of my perp's fantasy. I had no explanation of my own for what was happening to me. I was ashamed, frightened and alone, and I had to have something to believe in. Nothing from my experiences with my family or in the rest of the world helped me, and I had been warned that if I told my parents they would be furious and put me in an orphanage. So Dave, I guess I believed him because that was all there was to believe. I knew there was something very wrong about the whole mess, but by the time I got that figured out I was already feeling worthless and unloveable. Maybe it was all sick, but I didn't deserve any better. If my abuser wanted me only for sex, okay, at least someone wanted me for something.

On why this junk is so difficult to shift, maybe this is an area where the idea of the inner child is useful. As an adult I have gradually been able to rebuild a great relationship with my father. He is one of the few people I can hug, and I tell him I love him every day we are together. It tears me to pieces that I was never able to tell him what happened. But "Little Larry" looks at the situation with horror and wonders how he got tricked so badly. He is absolutely consumed with guilt and shame and wants "Big Larry" to forget any idea of telling Dad what happened.

Recovery is a path rather than a destination I guess. So even when Little Larry knows and accepts that none of this was his fault, he will still recall how it felt asking "Daddy" and will sometimes rehearse the fantasy that was imprinted in him, and maybe "Little Dave" will always recall how it felt out on the street and relive that from time to time. Maybe these things are just part of our trauma history as individuals, like fighting in a war or going through a catastrophic relationship. Maybe we are just on the sharp edge of the argument that life isn't fair and have to learn to move on and keep that fact from dominating everything we do and think and are.

I would love to replace that with a more optimistic outlook, if anyone has suggestions.

Take care,
Larry
 
POSSIBLE TRIGGERS

The three guys who raped my repeatedly were using me, I think, as a surrogate female whore. It was at Military College and I was 16. It started as hazing and wound up in a full blown sexual thing. I wll never forget one of them saying. "Boys come to this school become men. We are going to make you our Bitch". And they did with every sick cruel and painful thing they could think of. While under this control for 9 months I learned that I was really good at being a sex toy and that I was not much good for anything else.
AND DAMMIT I BELIEVED IT. I bought they whole damned thing and I still have trouble accepting that it had nothing to do with me.

As a child my life was abusive and college was just taking it to a higher level (i dont know what else to call it).

This followed me for 40 years being 1. am prostitute for 3 years and by acting out till I was 56.
Was it their fantasy I bought into . Or were they just amoral and needed sexual gratification and I was better than an knothole in a fence and warmer. Fantasy or not it influenced me all my life and it still does to a certain exent. Pedolphiles, boy lovers, perverts!! I dont give a shit. They fucked with me and my life and like Dave I still feel the pull even though I have been married to a wonderful woman for 38 years.
 
Those f*ck*ng pigs raped me, and they made my life what it is. I feel like one of them, a soldier who is not going to show any weakness, but he does, he wnats to rape or kill some kid. I live a life where I show I am OK. Everybody, I am OK!!! That is what I vigorously try to say. I feel that I am a little pervert or an empty space, or a d*ck. I am this peverted but straight soldier in my feelings. In reality, I am not. Maybe I bought into this image, and probably I continue to cultivate it inside day by day. Those pigs, moral perverts, pieces of sh*t harmed all my life. I hate them. I hate them for teaching me how to turn your life into a piece of toilet paper. Pigs.
 
Alexey,

I am glad you can express your rage. But remember, please remember, that the heat of your anger does not validate any of your negative feelings about yourself. Your post shows a lot of conflict in dealing with this problem, and yes, blame them and rage against them. Yes, they were pigs and perverts.

But part of saying no is to reject the fantasy. You are nothing like them. You are okay. What is fucked up is what happened to you as a boy; as Alexei you are okay - you did nothing wrong. No, your life now is not toilet paper. You are not perverted. Try to see the difference between the reality of who you are and the sick fantasy that your abusers imposed on you.

Take care,
Larry
 
Larry
You've understood EXACTLY what I'm getting at, thanks for adding your painful story to this discussion.

At 52yo I have had sex with more men than women, but I know that I'm not gay in as much as I never actually fancy other men.
Up to the age of 16 I think I had sex with 13 or 14 different older boys and adult males, and since then 'only' about 6 or 7.
The driver in every case since I left school at 16 was my fantasy, and although I know that the fantasy is a direct result of my abuse I'm wondering how come it's so deep rooted and difficult to overcome?

After all, I have reduced my fantasy to an extent that I can usually switch it off fairly quickly, and I don't ever act out any more. So some degree of success is possible - I know that - but is this inherited fantasy always going to remain with me?
I don't know the answer, and I don't suppose anyone else does. And the truth is that if this is as good as it gets then that's OK with me.

My fantasy is however based on the actions, and obvious fantasies, of the abuser who was sexually aware rather than the initial predator.
This second boy at the age of 13 had the knowledge and confidence to engage me in his fantasies.
Very like Larry's scoutmaster this boy had me 'work to a script', not actually read one, but all his questions were leading ones that only allowed me to answer with what he wanted to hear.
"Yes, can I .......?" "will you ......?" "can we try .....?" these were the kind of things I said to his seemingly innocent remarks such as "what are you doing after games?" I knew the answer was "Nothing special, would you like to ....?"

From there it progressed, and if he happened to mention that he also had 'fun' with another boy I immediately suggested a threesome. By the time I was 14 or 15 I was actively seeking him out and becoming, no - I had become, exactly what he wanted me to be.

This was clever stuff on his part, he knew exactly how to play his game and ensure he got what he wanted. And what he got was exoneration, he remained guilt free because I was his slut. I fed his fantasies, wherever he got his sick fantasies from I don't know or care, but I doubt that they were all his own creations.

But he passed them on, and I picked them up and ran with them.
For many years I used the memory of that sex as fantasy either when having sex or masturbating, and it was nearly always tightly focused on me and him, the other boys and the adults rarely featured.
Was that because they were opportunistic and only had sex with me because he let them? I think so. They have very little importance to me, I barely mentioned them in therapy because they had very little INFLUENCE on the whole abusive scene that I was in.
The next most popular fantasy person was the initial boy who groomed me, and therefore also had influence.

These two fuckers changed my life, and in ways I'm still coming to understand.
It was, as I've often said before, more to do with power and control over another person rather than sex, they both had that need for control.
Yes, they did show it in different ways but using sex as the 'weapon' of control.
The first boy went on to groom more and more boys, and continued to do so as a young adult. The second boy took his control once sex was established between us ( and others )and apparently he's very active in the swinging scene to this day. Isn't that all about control through sex?

We were kids, it's a fact that imprinting of young minds goes on and we learn so many important things at that time, we also learned our abusers fantasies.

Dave
 
Alexey
Larry's right, they're the 'pigs' not you.

You are so much better than they are, you care about yourself - why else would you be here?
And you care about others, we can see that.

Take care.
Dave
 
2 days and I hav'nt been able to get this thread out of my head - must mean it's something important to me I guess...

I guess I can start by saying that abuse by my Uncle did'nt make me gay (it's kinda made me shy away from sex altogether - though I have had 3 girlfriends in my life - 2 of those were set-up's by other friends though)

I was 4 and he was 12 when it started - it went on for about 5 years - he was unable to get any girlfriends - I guess I sort of fulfilled a 'need' for him - but I have never known if it was any sort of actual 'fantasy' for him or not

To be honest - a part of me prays that it was no fantasy invovled for him

I have always looked at it from a logical perspective as him having 'needs' that I was used to take care of...

I guess I am the one left with the question "Was there any fantasy involved?" and "How would I know if there was fantasy involved?"

I can never expect my Uncle to answer those questions...
 
At the age of 18 while in the US army I was raped by a superor and it has not turned me gay or caused any sort of sexual pervresion . my wife has tolf be that I was a little kinky a couple of times but that is it .
I do believe that child molesters and rapests should not have a stature of limitatins on there crime
The state of Texas and the US Army refuse to even let me file charges and presue the person that raped me because of the stature of limitations .
People need to start contacting there lawmakers and have the law changed so that thease peopple can be arrested and tryed for there crimes no matter how long ago that they happened . My rape happened in 1977 and if I could ever find the SOB that raped me what the law would to him would be nothing comparied to what I would do to him .
Sory for the out burst But the law does need to be change to find thease people and have them pay for there crimes .

Plaese Excuse my typeing and spelling
 
***More triggers I guess***

Just responding to where this thread has gone since yesterday, and specifically to Jeff's comment about his abusing uncle:

To be honest - a part of me prays that it was no fantasy involved for him.
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I think there must always be some kind of fantasy involved. Not "fantasy" in a cute comedy sense of course, but in the sense that the abuser must surely be asking himself what is going on and what the whole business means. What is he chasing? What does he want? What is he doing? Sexuality is an area of such huge importance in any society. How can these questions not arise? That said, the abuser's answers to these questions must be fantastic in some way or another, unless his answer is something like: "I'm raping a child. Oops." And the chances are that this fantasy will somehow pass on to the child, who is also wondering what the hell is going on. Isn't that what the self-loathing, fear and acting out are all about?

So Jeff, I would just ask this: Can it be that your uncle at 12 would not even wonder about servicing his "needs" with his 4-year-old nephew? He was a child himself, so perhaps his fantasy was something as simple as: "This is okay. No one will ever know."

This thread has encouraged me to face some things that I had thought I would never be able to admit, much less discuss or cope with (well, assuming that this is coping). That is, I don't think this is me inventing my own little counter-fantasy. We all know that childhood is the crucial time when we are imprinted with all sorts of things that will define who we are. That would include all sorts of experiences, even those we wish had never occurred.

That doesn't mean we are what our abusers created. Once we realize that our abusers were "performing" or acting out a fantasy, we can also realize that a fantasy is exactly what the word means: an unreal and false explanation for something. Mike was no one's "bitch" or surrogate whore. Dave was never a homosexual slut. I never owed four years of sex in return for the "affection" of someone pretending to replace my supposedly unloving father. It was all tricks and lies.

That's as far as we need to go. The whys and hows beyond that are endless and unanswerable. There's only one thing more I think we need to remember and to me this seems crucial. In my own case and others mentioned here where abusing adults are concerned, yes, I think behind the fantasy the reality is somehow all about control. The need to reduce a victim to utter powerlessness and worthlessness seems to be a common thread that runs through all these examples. And that's exactly why we can't shift the whole stinking thing. Our abusers DID reduce us to nothing, they DID render us helpless, they DID treat us as if we weren't worth a thing. All that actually HAPPENED. Just as we don't get to forget all that, we don't get to forget the fantasy attached to it. Perhaps walking on the path of recovery involves allowing ourselves to admit that.

Maybe this isn't so grim as it sounds. For one thing, if I can't forget my abuser's fantasy I sure can reject it and deny responsibility for it. I know I will always remember how he messed with my head and ruined my relationship with my father for years. But I can also see that the reality behind this was all about a sick adult controlling and manipulating an innocent and trusting child. It wasn't my fault.

For another thing, remembering that crap for what it was makes me appreciate my Dad even more today. I love him to bits and he knows it. We are like best friends and every moment we have together is special. I know I have years of work still ahead of me, but one of the most important things my abuser took from me I already have back.

As I write this it suddenly strikes me that no therapist gave that to me or figured it out for me and no pills made me brave. I just wanted it back and I took it. Not bad. I must remember this.

I hope this makes sense. I know I have been talking myself through this as I go.

Larry
 
I was pretty young when the SA started, and I was set up by my family to believe I was unloveable. So I'd have to say that if there was any fantasy involved in my uncle's SA of me, it was probably my own. I don't think I could make sense of what was being done to me without believing a whole bunch of fantasies like: This is my fault. He's actually loving me. It's because I'm blonde. I could stop this if I just did the right thing. This is all I'm good for.

I don't know about perp fantasies. It's my own attempts at making myself feel safe by fantacising my own way through the SA that stayed with me. And I can't seem to shake them. The fantasies seem reversed now, though. I mean, if I feel extremely unsafe and out of control, I think about highlighting my hair again. If I can be that blonde boy, only better, then I can control how people treat me. That's what the fantasy is. The problem is that it's not reality and never will be. I end up flirting and f****** myself and porn and all this stuff that part of my brain still holds onto. But after it's all over, I'm still out of control, feeling powerless, and stressed out of my mind. Only now, I have guilt and worthlessness and emptiness and feel dirty and ugly, the same feelings I had 30 years ago.

So, I'd ask Dave's question this way. "So how come we grow up believing the fantasies of a child?" And how do I convince my own mind that those fantasies don't work anymore?
 
Something else I've thought since reading these replies is the use of fantasy as an escape from reality.
For me certainly, fantasy was a normal part of my life so it was natural that I used it as a coping statergy during the abuse.
As a small boy I lived out in the country with no other kids close by, so I used my imagination when I played, I was the cowboy and the indian as I chased myself around the woods.

I did the same thing at boarding school to escape the rigid life we led, I would escape through fantasy - daydreaming.
So when these older boys introduced me to their fantasies, and they became real, it has to be said that because they contained a big element of physical pleasure and the excitement of secrecy, this sudden rush of new emotions and sensations became very deeply imprinted.

It's been proved with experiments on animals that the most effective way of changing and influencing behaviours is by rewarding the animals with either food or sex, so it's hardly surprising that as a boy I bought into their fantasy / behaviours because for the most part I was rewarded for sex. Even if it was only cigarettes or a 'show' of friendship, however false that might have been.
Even after a beating and gang rape by these two ringleaders and a few others under their influence I 'overlooked' that because they said 'sorry' and became 'my friends' again.
I basically bought into their lifestyle, and inevitably adopted their fantasies - to a large degree.

I have never abused or even fantasised about sex with young people, but the sex acts and the dynamics of the abuse of power that happened back then have lived with me ever since the day the abuse stopped, and I then dressed them up in new fantasies in such a way that I thought I was reclaiming my power back, the power I lost to them.

My fantasy is a tight and specific one, and the more I think about it the clearer it becomes.
It involves me giving bj's to other men, and sometimes recieving anal sex. Basically both acts of submission to another person, they certainly were for me as a boy no matter how well I was groomed to act as the slut and ask for sex.
So, as an adult I somehow thought that if I could re-create these acts but do them on MY TERMS then I could exorcise them from my mind.

Which led to my acting out.
But because I was so focused on doing these sex acts on my terms and having total control of a submissive act, the whole process of engaging in sex with other men actually became impossible, and ultimately so frustrating ( without me realising any of this ) that it led to more and more futile attempts.
How could I possibly take full control and be submissive?
This generally led to bizzare situations where I would flee halfway through the act because the other man said something, or asked me to do something that instantly put them in control. I even ended up fighting with someone to get away.

My fantasy does go back to my abusers, or at least one of them. He praised me constantly for my 'skills' and was a very verbal person during sex.
That's where I learned ALL my sex education, the school taught us fuck all except how frogs reproduce.

From somewhere he knew about sex, I'm 99% sure it was the teacher who also abused me for a brief time that 'taught' him.
This sequence of abuse through generations created a monster in the form of introducing sex into the minds of impressionable boys, who processed it in the only way we knew how. The wrong way.

I'm convinced that fantasy was their driver. They lived in their fantasy and firmly believed that what they were doing wasn't wrong, it did no harm, we enjoyed it and it was of benefit to us.
Thankfully my fantasy evolved in a different way, but evolve it did.

At it's worst about 6 or 7 years ago I was driven in a way I can barely imagine now. I had no control of the fantasy - acting out sequence, so I know how powerful these things are. I also firmly believe that the only difference between my fantasy and theirs is the actual direction each took. In that respect I'm sure that I have a common link with my abusers, just through the unstoppable force that can be attached and involved in fantasy, especially when it takes on a life of its own.

I'm not saying this to justify their actions, far from it. But just to try and understand the force of the drivers behind their actions, and then to break that force that they passed on to me.

Dave
 
Larry, Dave, thank you. You have said very kind words. Good luck to you.

Alexey
 
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