Who is he? Anyone going through this?

Who is he? Anyone going through this?
I

Iwanttohelphim

Registrant
I have another thread going where I am deciding how to let go or whether to let go...and I talked about the conflict of dealing with a polarized person- the angry and dangerous man, the scared little boy, the loving soul.....

And so this is my question..many of us assume that we are dealing with great guys who have "issues".

One thing that keeps praying on my mind is this- what if his issues are an "excuse" ?

There are people out there who are just horrible- there are people with Narcisiistic personality disorder and deviants and sociopaths...(my guy is NOT a sociopath) ..

But how do I know that the behavior (which is very narcisistic) is "borderline" stemming from child abuse- what if he really is a bad guy and I am making excuses for him to see what I want to see? (I don't think I am)

I don't know who he is. i don't know what reality is anymore. I don't know what is going on....

Anyone else feel like this?
 
Boy is that a loaded question and one that I'd be willing to bet many of us have faced. I'm sorry, but I can't possibly answer it for you as it relates to your guy - only you can. No pressure. ;)

What you and all of us want is a guarantee that our guys will get better. They'll realize that we, who stood by them and loved them are the most wonderful person in the world and they will love us for all eternity. They don't have any personality flaws at all that s/a can't explain or that time, love and therapy can't cure.

Wouldn't that be the most wonderful ending to our stories?

Of course it's not and while each of us here encourages and supports the others, none of us really KNOW if what we are opining is the right thing or not because we don't know the real players in real life. We have to rely on what we read on these boards and make a very quick judgment.

I'm afraid that only you have the necessary information to decide whether your guy has "just" been harmed by s/a or if there are other forces at work that would make him a bad guy.

I'm sorry it's so hard. I understand it too. I've questioned my own judgment a million times. But I keep on believing; the alternative is really not an option for me as long as he's working even harder than I am.

This isn't what you were looking for I'm sure, but I it's all I've got.

ROCK ON.......Trish
 
Thanks Trish,

Actually, no- I don't need a gaurantee about him getting better anymore....

I need to understand who he is so I can give myself permission to leave him in the past. I am finding it very hard to do that when I think of him as a wounded soul.

There are many times a day I flip from utter disgust at his behavior and then sob for his pain-

It's like being sczitso-

I need to understand him and I feel guilty for thinking he might just be a bad guy - I feel like a really terrible person- but a friend of mine said she thinks it's more than his being a survivor (she is with a survivor) she thinks he has another kind of flaw (jerkface) - I just don't know-

Is my confusion normal? Do other people feel totally confounded by trying to know who we were living with because it turns out to be such a tremendous lie? The reality distortion- the gaslighting that we go through with the survivors is totally hellish and I found myselof thinking today that there is nothing wrong with him and that I made it all up and that I abused him so he left - But I DIDN*T make it all up and he did hit and scream and meltdown and throw things and bully and intimidate and threaten to take my children away of he didn't like my attitude about his descisions...and all the rest...he accused me of being an addict (never did drugs), he accused me of never being able to be a mother and ruining his dreams and all kinds of crazy crap- he refused to let me have a toothbrush or clean clothes at times....

I DIDN*T do those things....

I feel totally crazy....Help!
 
Iwant,

It sounds complicated, "to understand who he is so I can have permission to leave him in the past."

You have permission to leave him in the past. It takes two to make a relationship work; it only takes one to end it. People don't only leave relationships when their partner is terrible or abusive, and they don't always stay in them because the other person is hurting.

It sounds like there was a lot of abuse in the relationship. I guess I am wondering what more you would need to see in order to feel justified about letting go of it.
 
Iwanttohelphim,

I need to understand who he is so I can give myself permission to leave him in the past. I am finding it very hard to do that when I think of him as a wounded soul.
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But you can't "fix" him; only he can do that. He will benefit if he has support, of course, but ultimately the decisions to do the hard work of recovery and to stick with it rest with him alone.

And you also can't be his caretaker. If you do that you enable him to lean and focus on you rather than deal with his own problems. Your well-intended ministrations to him can easily distract him from his task if, at the same time, you are not keeping your own house in order - demanding respect and ensuring that your own boundaries are observed. Rather than helping him to recover, this could simply produce another victim - you!

Much love,
Larry
 
Thanks you guys,

SAR- what more would I need?

I need to know who I left. I feel like I either "made" him abusive because I wasn't good enough at being an understanding partner...that if I had done everything differently, that I somehow provoked and triggered him- Intellectually I know this is not true. I know the choices to behave the way he did were his. But then I think, he doesn't have skills- he was doing the best he could with what he had..I should have been more understanding...I should have been able to manage this...

But I can't. Like Larry said, if I had given in on my boundaries, it would have been enabeling and he would have continued to abuse me.

It is so hard when they blame us for everything. In that relationship "everything" was my "fault". I was in hospital and he screamed at me because I was "selfish" to get sick because I never "considered how it affected HIM"!

I sent him dozens of letters explaining that I fely controlled, bullied, and that we both needed help. I went to get help. He didn't. I told him that the abuse in his family- they still hit eachother was unacceptable to me and that seeing his family hit him shattered my heart. I don't know what else I could have said. he told me he wanted that part of his life to be over, that he wanted a peaceful home and a family- but he was so angry all of the time, and alternatively clingy like a child.

What was I supposed to do?

I need to know what happened. I need to know what the truth is. Maybe I am so in shock about what really went down that I have not been able to process it yet (I have been in a lot of therapy, maybe it just takes time). But I can't help but feel like I made it all up and that he is just a "normal", regular guy and I concocted all of this to make an excuse to hide the fact that I can't keep a relatiuonship. Maybe I was the crazy one--I can't imagine that someone could start throwing furniture because they feel abandonded because the TV is on. I MUST have done something to provoke him. This is not normal behavior. I keep asking myself what I did wrong.

I am scared that I ruined a good thing by having delusions and taking things too personal or taking them too hard...or just plain making them up. Could all of the really have happened?

I read over our e-mails and I talk about my feelings a lot and talk about what I need and his responses are reassuring "I love you, it's ok, you can do it" - but his actions were not like that- he would tell me face to face that I am genetically flawed and all kinds of other things- he would tll me where to sit, who I could sit nxt to, how close to another person I could stand, when I could go to sleep...

I need to understand who he is so I can know what I did, so I can know who I am.

I used to laugh all the time- since meeting him, I can barely get out of bed and I wish I were ...not alive. I used to work and play hard and have adventures and be curious- I can barely get into the shower now...there was so much anger and pain all of the time with him.

He was like a joy vaccuum- sucked it right out of me...Or was that my fault? Did I do that to him?

But he was screaming at me that the no one was ever going to control him again and I was not going to get away with being like his father! (in response to my watching TV- for half hour in the entire 4 weeks we first lived together) and all kinds of other crazy things -

He blamed me for his behavior over and over again- I 2made" him scream at me, I "made" him lose control, if I used his full name instead of his nickname I "purposely disrespected" him, I didn't "understand marriage" and he is therefore "against norway" and can't marry me ummmmmmmmmmm. WHAT???????

WHO IS HE? Is he a survivor who needs to be understood or is he an abusive jerk? Is he a little bit of both? Or is he a really nice guy with a ouple of problems like the rest of us, that I drove to abuse? Or was he a normal, nice guy that I abused and I am convincing myself that he abused me, when in fact I am the monster?

I read and re read all of the "important" leters I wrote to him- the one's he never answered because they were so "awful" - and I was politely asserting boundaries and telling him I love him and making plans for the future and our wedding. Over and over again - he said if we were not one person, I was disrespectful of marriage-

I need to know who he is and that I am not totally crazy. I feel extraordinarily crazy some days-

Thank you for reminding me that I have permission to leave him in the past. It probably is what I have to do and I need some help getting there.
 
I was in hospital and he screamed at me because I was "selfish" to get sick because I never "considered how it affected HIM"!
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i heard similar words once; an office employee's friend had been shot, the employee furiously complained at how much trouble it meant for HIM - the employee was a clerk, this was over a decade ago, in the midst of the crack epidemic in nyc, the senior partner in the office was trying to help this guy out by giving him a job, and yes, this guy did drugs, everyone in the office knew it.

the point is, i can confidently say i've heard more than my share from a lot of people in my time, but the only time i've ever heard something even remotely similar to what your SO said was from an undoubtedly very messed up person.

am not sure anything else needs to be said. he's bad news, hon, i'm truly sorry because i know you want to have some hope otherwise. :(

moreover, a relationship cannot truly be defined by one person simply because it's more than one person who makes up a relationship. therefore, you need communication from him - HEALTHY communication - in order to define what happened before if you want input other than what you recall. unless and until that can occur, well, you have to decide for yourself just how much energy you want to put into trying to understand what perhaps, is not easily explained. quite possibly that's because it was irrational and erratic behavior; triggered perhaps by csa as the root cause but nevertheless acted out by a grown man who MUST take responsibilty for his own actions.

hard words for me to write right now, i think i need to take some of my own advice :eek:

all the best,
indy
 
The permission you seek can only be granted by you and from what I've read here, you have every right to grant that permission to yourself. Your relationship sounds like it was horribly toxic and abusive. No one thrives or even survives for very long in that that environment. Isn't that what this whole site is about? Coming to grips with the horrors of the past in order to survive and thrive in the future?

You don't need to know and understand him in order to let him go; you need to know and understand yourself and the life you are entitled to.

ROCK ON........Trish
 
Thank you so much, I know I have been asking a lot of "opposite" questions in the past couple of days and asking for a lot of support.

I am having some PTSD problems (probably obviously)and as I said, the reality of the abuse is trying to sink in. I am having a hard time understanding what reality is concerning my X. And as Indy said, I think I am looking for a "mirror" to I can understand my experience- which is pretty normal human behavior-

I need to trust myself that things were abusive. I need to trust my memory of the violence and manipulation and crazy behavior and find my own way to accept it and greive it, without looking for an external mirror. I just don't know how.

I don't know how to let go of the guilt of having survived (and for the most part thrived) CSA myself...not being able to be there for another person.

Maybe I need to know he can see hope because I need to know that there will always be hope. Maybe I am scared to demonize him because in doing so, I would be demonizing myself - I was pretty awful before I found recovery.

I am so grateful for the responses and the fact that you all take the time to read. I really appreciate and value your input.
 
and now I know why I don't know how to do it without a mirror of my experience and then grieve- that was the one step I never made it to in recovery about the childhood. It is where UI am stuck about my family and the CSA-

How do I get the skills? Because it feels like it wants to come out- but if it does , I will fall apart....the panick attacks are increasing to a couple a day- it feels like I am going backwards.....

What are some of the skills I need to move through this?
 
Hi,

It sounds like you are having a terrible time right now. One thing that has been helpful to me when dealing with overwhelmedness is what my therapist calls "ABC," or "A Bigger Container." I don't know if I can explain this quite as well as my T does, but he always reminds me to check in with my throat, my chest, and my belly and breathe. And then, to make more room (ABC) within myself to "contain" (embrace?) the feelings that seem to be overwhelming me. In other words, it is the contraction against the feelings that make them seem overwhelming. I don't know if this is at all helpful, but as someone who also suffers from PTSD (and one step forward, two steps back syndrome) sometimes it is helpful to reassociate our feelings with our bodies and not just our minds activity.
Love and good thoughts will flow from me to you today.
Cecilia
 
iwanttohelphim,

remember not everyone goes thru recovery the same way, or with the same attitude. that's not just for survivors of sexual abuse, either. it's the same for alcoholics, drug addicts, survivors of physical abuse, all of the above. and unfortunately, sometimes people don't even succeed at recovery. you seem like you are trying extremely hard to succeed and deserve a lot of credit for that.

you can't tie your recovery and growth to his - it's simply not realistic or practical. maybe you are feeling guilty because you are getting better and you don't want to "leave him behind?" is that what you are talking about?

in some ways, i can identify with this - i lived in nyc during 9/11, in manhattan, and let me tell you, the entire populace was suffering tremendous survivor's guilt. for me, i'd even had the intuition to walk out of a job interview in 1998 at a very respectable firm in the wtc but my inner voice said "don't do it!" and i turned and walked away. they begged me to come back and interview and i refused, saying i just couldn't work at the wtc. you can't imagine how i felt after 9/11! tremendous guilt that shook me to the core of my soul!!

i finally balanced my guilt by acknowledging i'd been given a special gift and to try and live a more balanced life, less work, more personal involvement with people (i tend to be a workaholic). maybe that's one of the reasons i'm on this site? i know it's played a role in my wanting to really succeed in my relationship with my bf.

i do hope you feel better soon :) try and do something good for just you this weekend. don't know how it is where you are but we are starting to see some really nice fall weather; i'll be traveling out of town to see some friends; it's also her daughter's 10th b-day. i'm so looking forward to being around good friends, i don't get to see them nearly enough. i hope you can do something similar - hey everyone here, actually. life's too short!

all the best,
indy
 
Thanks Cecilia- I know about the big container- and it is helping- but sometimes it doesn't work and sometimes it is REALLY hard to have to focus all the time on just that- nothing gets done---it's a mess- I'm sure you know.

I have actually been using the big container and ...I need something ..no. I need to use it better.

And I am going to take my big container to the park tonight to BBQ and see the Wizzard of OZ :-D

Have fun indy. I was there on 9/11. It was horrifying. I know how you feel. I can still smell it in my clothes and on my hair. I'm sorry you had to go through it. But we walked away and I am not sure why we made it, but we did. It's part of what reminds me how precious life is- and when I think of that- it makes me want to remind HIM even more that this is true. But I guess we all have to stand in the flames and the noise and figure out who we are when the dust settles. I just can't beleive he shook my foundation so badly.

I remember telling him "I have worked hard to earn my happiness and my peace of mind and no one will take that from me." And he did- temporarily-

Maybe I have been linking him with this next step for me- but I think it is more like, he gave me the opportunity to see that there was a next step. And I do feel guilty "leaving him behind". I think I know he is not the right man for me- but I feel like I am doing what he said I would do- abandon and hurt the little boy. But he did that to himself- he manipulated my heart to make me beleive I was responsible for him (could "save" him/"fix" him) when I never wanted to be. He ran away. I didn't leave him.
 
Iwanttohelphim,

There can be more than one version of the truth... it's not like there's "your side" and "his side" and only one of them can be right.

I think it is great that you want to examine the ways that you could have contributed to the dysfunction in the relationship. I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOUR ACTIONS CAUSED HIS ABUSE-- ultimately he could have chosen to act differently and he did not. But, it is easy to stand there with a checklist of wrong actions and say "He did this and this-- therefore he is the abuser and he is bad.... I did not do this or this, so I am not the abuser and I am good." Just because X, Y and Z don't happen doesn't mean there's no abuse there.

However, why not change your perspective a bit-- instead of needing to figure this out so that you can understand what went wrong with HIM and how to leave him behind, focus on understanding YOUR choices and feelings so that you can move on to better and healthier relationships, and make decisions that will keep you safe in the future.

You say that he "made you believe" that you were responsible for him, could save or fix him. Is there something in your own life that made that belief attractive to you? Was there an emotional payoff for you in believing that you had the power to save a hurt child? I can see how this belief would be be very attractive to any CSA survivor, and how they might break a lot of their own boundaries or make poor choices in order to keep believing it.
 
This go t really long---I started to vent....
Originally posted by Iwanttohelphim:
Originally posted by SAR:

You say that he "made you believe" that you were responsible for him, could save or fix him. Is there something in your own life that made that belief attractive to you? Was there an emotional payoff for you in believing that you had the power to save a hurt child? I can see how this belief would be be very attractive to any CSA survivor, and how they might break a lot of their own boundaries or make poor choices in order to keep believing it.
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ACtually, it was very unattracrive- and in it's more obvious forms- I ststed that he was manipulating and I would not stand for it (in a gentle way) and he would have a tantrum.

It's very subtle the way it happened- his pain and his puppy dog eyes and his terrible stories- would then be followed by a request- "If you could just stroke me hair I'll feel better"...never mind that it was 4 am, after 6 hours of hair stroking and I had to fly in 2 hours- all that didn't exist- but if I didn't do it- I would get a meltdown...again...

Or even less obviously..."when you sit next to me, I feel good" (wow great! I will sit next to him when I can, as much as I can..after all I LOVE him and love to be near him) to "You didn't sit next to me. You don't love me and I have to break up with you because you are a liar" :eek:

I picked up on this pretty quickly and I did the boundary thing, I went to get professional help and I hated every moment of it (his behavior).....but it did take longer time for me to pick up the subtle stuff- or the stuff that was presented in a positive way "I love you, you complete my soul"...

When I hear something like that- I beleive it is an expression- it is not what the person really beleives- so we were speaking 2 languages- I was speaking "fluffy" in love flowery language- he meant that stuff. He actually expected me to complete him and to fill the hole, which is what I meant by "fix" him.

I beleived I could help but limited only to making sure his physical needs were met (I mean hydration, balanced meals, propper sleep not sex)
and by asserting boundaries and by suggesting professional help- I did everything that is suggested on MS - I do see where my mistakes were- I had a tendency to allow him to argue me and my feelings- "why do you NEED clean clothes. If there wasn't a washing machine, what would you do?"- I would finally give in after all the appropriate responses to that and say- I like to be clean, it's really important to me..blah blah blah" and then I would feel violated. I realize that part- but after being screamed at, threatened and bullied in an isolated environment, with no way to get out, no money and at 3 am ...it's easy to see how someone can crack when this happens frequently and I was going on 2 hours of sleep a night for 3 months- (yes, my other efforts did not work in the sleep dept). I gave im a lot of CBT tools to work with - but no dice- he said the CBT stuff was my point of view- i tried to explain that it is untwisted thinking and he scoffed- attributing it to "values" then my values weren't good enough....... :confused: I thought if I could demonstrate good self care- he would rspond to that- I thought that at least I wouldn't be exposed to moods based on physiological things (like hunger=anger) and that it would even out the ground for us to start building ....

I told him in writing, because talking didn't work, that I was concerned that the two times I was dependent on him, he got violent and I was exposed to external violence and that my basic needs were not met, after stating them clearly multiple times and being assured they would be taken care of- I need not worry or do XYZ, because it was all going to be taken care of (getting me a tooth brush for eg. I asked point blank "what can we do to solve this problem? I love you and I want everything to be talked about and solved so that we don't have to fight and so that we are both relaxed and feel secure."

When I did that- he freaked out and blamed me for ruining the relationship and his heart- I had "stained his heart" and caused "permanet damage" and he would never forgive me for the act, my feelings, my thoughts, or for the damage.

After a "fight" we would talk about it- he would interrupt, character assisnate, blame me, make me..then when he said everything was ok- he would repeat the behavior- and months later he would bring it up again- say I destroyed the realtionship- character assasinate - say he could never forgive anyone for anything and switch everything around to make it my fault. So in essence Absive behhavior, justification, demand for appology, make a reconcilloiation, harbor a grudge, blame me, and start the fight again blaming me for his abusive behavior again..all the while sending me love notes, saying everything was fine and continuing to plan a wedding. And then the wedding was off because I am a monster who ruined the relationship 3 months before...but he said everything was fine and had melt downs if I said maybe we should wait to get married..6 months so all our friends could be there...It was totally destabilizing (and I told him so over and over again). But I couldn't have known until it played out. I couldn't have known that 2-3 months after a "fight" he would start it again and blame me for it and still hold a grudge and flip out.

When I realized that was happening- that he was holding me responsible and it wasn't going to stop- I left. It took a 8 months and we lived in 2 seperate countries. I am not really worried about me in that sense.
I did ok in that respect.

I know there is not one absolute tuth or one side being right- that was my problem with him- there was one right way to do things- if it was not done that way- then it was purposely done to "get" him and hurt hiim and the person or the act was unacceptable and disrepectful and he couldn't see them again or tolerate it. he was totally inflexible and totally unable to accept others- not just me- mostly himself- But I will feel guilty for not doing a good enough job helping someone so desperately in need and not guilty for leaving a jerk. If he is a guy in need acting like a jerk..I will feel ok about leaving, but sad in my heart- I have to know how to feel and feel that way consistantly- I can't live in turmoil.

The more I type and remember- the better this is for me- I did do everything I was supposed to do- I had excellent boundaries- I explained boundaries to him and he sadi I was making that up- people become one - and y'know what- I did a lot to hold my temper and to be positive and to always encourage- I never held grudges and I bought into his BS about how committed he was to the relationship- I also know he is a totally messed up person- I really am not, and I know that because when I went through all of the recovery stuff and the boundary books- I could hear myself saying all of it to him - without having read them- and I know I am ok and that's why OI left the relationship.

What he "made" me beleive- I chose to beleive- was that he knew he had a problem and that he was committed and that he was working on it- I wanted to give him the time and space to be succesfull. I know how hard it is. I know it doesn't happen over night. he was able to express feelings in calm times, but not manage emotions- if you read our correspondence- I look like the crazy one - He could also be just wonderful- very sweet in some ways...until his thinking got involved and then it was just very ugly- he was very ugly inside....he is very ugly inside- at least part of him is- and that is the part that guided his choices, behaviors and words 90% of the time.

I have to learn to deal with the greif and the sadness and anger at the people who did this to us while learning to be grateful he is out of my life, instead of feeling sorry for his pain all day. Not that I expect this or want it, but it is a way to have perspective for me - he doesn't stay up mights sobbing because I was SA as a child and he is devastated for me- he doesn't send me e mails worried that I am ok - he doesn't do research to help me, he doesn't do anything to help himself, he doesn't accept me or appreciate me - he doesn't care about anything but his own pain- no different than what it was in our relationship- all about him. [/QB]
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Iwanttohelphim,

My heart goes out to you. I don't know how things will turn out for either you or me, but I hope we'll both realize something: That though we may feel sad for someone else, sad that they may miss out on all the love and goodness in the world, that they may grow old and die one day, not having had joy in their lives.....as much as we would be sad for THEM, let us then be sad for OURSELVES. For WE ought not to miss out on joy in life because of someone else either. WE also will grow old and die. WE also deserve better. What we want for them, let us want it for OURSELVES.
 
Originally posted by Brokenhearted:
Iwanttohelphim,

My heart goes out to you. I don't know how things will turn out for either you or me, but I hope we'll both realize something: That though we may feel sad for someone else, sad that they may miss out on all the love and goodness in the world, that they may grow old and die one day, not having had joy in their lives.....as much as we would be sad for THEM, let us then be sad for OURSELVES. For WE ought not to miss out on joy in life because of someone else either. WE also will grow old and die. WE also deserve better. What we want for them, let us want it for OURSELVES.
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This was wonderful brokenhearted and you are absolutely right. What is wrong with ME, that I can't do this for myself? Back to therapy....arghghghghghghgh.

:)

Hugs

Bunny
 
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