When does a survivor stop believing he was/is an exception to the rule?

When does a survivor stop believing he was/is an exception to the rule?
T

Trish4850

My b/f and I were talking last weekend about abuse, at his instigation, not mine. He was trying very hard to explain to me why things happened to him and how he was at least partly to blame. Needless to say, I had a very hard time trying not to get angry and for the most part I succeeded, until this. I let him talk, I gave him my very opposite opinion and then I asked him a question. If someone, anyone, hurt my youngest nephew could that possibly be OK? {I even put his age back to 4 which he was when my b/f met him and when the abuse started for my b/f} No, of course not! But you don't understand I did.............. at that point, I did get angry. I told him he wasnt anything more that a little boy and in no way is it appropriate for a but to follow such a question, whether were talking about my nephew, a stranger or you! A child is a child is a child and anyone in a position of power and control over that child has the absolute responsibility for anything that happens to that child!

He then proceeded to tell me that he had been caught masturbating at one time, so because of that...........I came very close to losing it. Oddly enough, my girlfriend and I had been having a conversation earlier that night, with my b/f, about our girls because one of her girls is starting to explore her own body a little bit and she wasnt sure what to do. I told her that when I caught my daughter checking things out as it were, I very calmly explained to her that it was OK, but that she should only do it in private. Her body is hers and only hers so no one else should be around, or words to that effect. This is a perfectly normal part of growing up and from my recollection of myself, my daughter, my niece (who I also talked to because my brother and sister-in-law were at a loss) the curiosity factor is there when children are somewhere between 3-7 and then fades into the background until adolescence hits. I reminded my b/f of this conversation and said it was no different for girls or boys. If I, our friend and countless other parents explained things in the most simple terms to their child and then let nature do what it will, how on earth did that make him different or give his parents the right to use that as an excuse to abuse? He broke down and shut down at that point and we went to bed.

I know hell be working these things out with his T (yes, I did confirm just this week that hes been going) but when he brings it up with me, I dont really know what to do. He wants to talk so I cant and wont shut him down, but I sure as hell cant agree with him.

Your feedback would be much appreciated.

ROCK ON................Trish
 
Trish:

I swear I am going to address your post, but I may have to "go around the block" to get there. I was talking to my T today...I started going back to him after I learned of my b/f's abuse and some other stuff that crashed on me within a three week period. I needed SOMEONE to talk to about all this. At any rate, today I was speculating as to why it might be that I was the one he chose to tell. And I believe part of the reason is because I have worked so hard on my boundaries, and at some level he senses that and knows it is the "healthier" way to be. I constantly work to discern where I begin and end and where he begins and ends...trying to figure out what his "my work" and "his work". I say all this by way of introduction--

Sometimes I think we have to let go of our carefully crafted emotional control and actually BE ANGRY. And, we need to let them see it. Because, really, if we don't let each other see all of our emotions, then we are demonstrating a lack of trust in the other. Does that make sense? If I can't be angry around him, then I must not trust that he can handle my anger or I must believe that he will not like me if I am angry. At any rate, not too long ago we were having a conversation about his feelings/emotions/past and his thoughts of suicide...very emotionally charged topic, right? I'm doing the "active listening" thing, reflecting back, being "supportive" when the comment comes from him that his kids would be better off if he were dead. I sort of lost it and I almost went across the table. "Now that makes me really pissed off", I told him. "For someone as brilliant as you to actually believe that? Your kids would be better off konwing you didn't love them enough to stay around and be there for them?" I sure don't know if it was the "right" or "wrong" thing to do, but it was honest and it kept the conversation going...

On the topic of masturbation and children: I have three kids and each one of them (2 girls, 1 boy) went through that "curiosity" phase where they were exploring themselves. I handled it in much the same way that you did with each of them. "There is nothing wrong with touching yourself there. Just know that it is a very private activity and we don't do it in front of other people." When they would (inevitably) do it again, I would remind them to go to their room to do that. The other thing I have observed (while raising three kids) is that their levels of sexual curiosity and "sexuality" (if you will) are VERY different. My oldest is the most passionate about EVERYTHING...life in general, and it was evident from a very young age. She was more curious about herself and others than either of the other two.

So, I'm not sure if this is helpful to you, Trish, but these are the thoughts that flowed after reading your post.

Clem
 
Trish,

I see two issues here: the general one of guilt for childhood abuse and the specific one of masturbation.

I think it would be safe to say that the vast majority of survivors feel guilt for what happened to them. The basic problem is that a boy needs a world that makes sense to him, and if something senseless devastates him he will provide a sense of his own. That sense is often "I an guilty". And abusers will often play on this and point out to the boy that he didn't tell anyone, he didn't say no, he "went along with it", he got an erection, he ejaculated, it "felt good", etc.

This gets even worse once the survivor is an adult, because he sees so many things he could have done to avoid or end the abuse. What the survivor DOESN'T see here is that he is viewing things from an adult perspective, and with the resources and strength he now has an adult. Basically, he is trashing himself because at age 14 he didn't act on the options he sees at age 40. He doesn't understand yet that as a boy he simply didn't HAVE those resources or options. At the age of 40, for example, he may easily see himself standing up to a predator and suppose that at as a kid he should have been able to do the same thing. That's just not true.

Masturbation is a difficult subject to understand, at least for me. My Dad was pretty liberal about it. He told me all boys do it and it's okay to explore one's body this way. My parents knew I did it, and the frequency must have been obvious from the way I burned through boxes of tissues in my room. ;) Still, I wasn't just private about it, I was extremely secretive and fearful about it and was horrified when my Mom caught me once (Why is it always your MOM who catches you??? Shit! :mad: ).

If your bfs family was more prudish about masturbation, then these naturally bashful feelings about it would have easily been turned into guilt and shame. It would have reinforced his similar feelings about his abuse experiences, so I'm not surprised he draws a connection.

Could I make a suggestion here? Make sure you let him know that your feelings about all this are frustration about the way he clings to these mistaken perceptions and not anger with him personally. Try to get him to see how false these feelings are, but how natural it is that he should have them. If he picks up the signal that you are angry at him, it will just make him feel worse about himself.

Much love,
Larry
 
Trish

I think we've discussed this before and in a general sense my partner also accepts things about his childhod that I just cannot agree with (cant do those faces but one of frustration right here).

I'm sure in your case its no cooincidence that he has chosen to work so hard to be with a woman who truly believes it wasn't his fault.

Maybe admitting it wasn't his fault is a place he'll arrive at fairly organically as he heals? In the meantime, you stick to your guns when it comes up. Honesty is something survivors had so little of and I'm sure he finds it comforting on one level even if he can't yet agree with it.

Love

Tracy
 
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**** TRIGGER WARNING ****
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Larry,

Why is it always your MOM who catches you???
Click to expand...
It's not always mothers. When I started masturbating (having already been showed several times over the preceding few years by my brother), I was also quite secretive about it. My brother never 'caught' me at it, but he was aware whenever I was just a little longer than usual in the bathroom, or when I had any door closed. And he'd want to know what I'd been up to, of course.

Also, when I was somewhere in the 15-17 age range, I was in bed masturbating to some gay porn magazine involving two long-haired guys (it was 70s stuff). My dad walked in, and I hastily pulled up my sheets and comforter, knocking the magazine on the floor in the process. I was scared shitless, and Dad clearly understood what I'd been doing before he came in without knocking. I kept thinking he'd leave, but he didn't, wouldn't go. He walked over to the bed, looked down at the magazine, mistook the long hair for a woman, and said "Oh, she's giving him a blowjob." He kept lingering; I was shaking. I finally said, very quietly, "Get out." He looked hurt, and also embarassed, as if I'd reminded him of something he'd forgotten, like propriety, or sensitivity, or concern. But he did go.

John
 
Trish
sometimes we NEED telling!

We've had years of convincing ourselves that it was our fault etc, so those thoughts are deeply ingrained.

However illogical those thoughts and beliefs of ours are, they are OUR beliefs and WE formulated them. We also believe that we're smart enough to think for ourselves, which for the most part we are ( aren't we ? ;) ) so we trust our thoughts, and that adds to the solidity of these deeply ingrained beliefs.

When faced with someone elses thoughts and logic on those beliefs we can see it as a challenge to our intelligence, and that's something nobody likes.
Now I'm NOT critisizing you at all, far from it, I think we should be challenged. Especially by people we love and trust.
In no way is what you said 'doing our healing for us' - what it's doing is forcing your fella to challenge his own thoughts, and I believe that can only be a good thing, if he said he's going to talk about it in therapy, then rejoice, what you said probably hit home, hard, and registered.

Dave
 
Thanks all. I will keep challenging him when he tries to lay the blame on his shoulders. It doesn't belong there at all. The fact that he can hold on to such a thought is absolutely mind boggling to me. I guess Ill just have to wait that one out, but I wont be passive about it, quite the opposite actually, because I am very passionate about it! Ill just try to keep the anger level down because youre right Larry, Im not angry with him, just terribly frustrated.

Tracy, I hope youre right; I have to believe that with time and his continued therapy, hell see the truths are they are, not as he believes them to be now.

Clem, I totally get what your saying about the different levels of sexuality. My b/f is a very sexual person; thats not a bad thing. I am too so we fit. Sadly, while he enjoys every aspect of his sexuality, something that I am very grateful for given his past, he believes that the very fact of his feelings are what caused the abuse. He has done bad things in the past to hurt me, his acting out specifically, but if that is taken out of the equation (pretty hard to do I know) his attitudes about sex are actually very healthy. His mother was his primary abuser, yet he loves women - truly loves women and more than that, he respects us. Not just their bodies, but their minds and their whole selves. He does understand that his mother was the one who was awful, not womankind as a whole.

Jacob, youre dead on. No one else deserves or asked for what happened, somehow though, he thinks he did. Hes too smart to know in his logical mind that such a thing is really true, but he holds on to it, which leads me to this.

Dave, the idea that Im challenging his intelligence is one I never thought of, but I can absolutely see that its a very real possibility. My b/f is very smart. If he survived a disaster, hed be the first one organizing and making sure that others thrived; then hed re-build everything, starting with the schools and hed be the head teacher! Hes pretty awesome actually. I tell him that all the time, but he just makes a face and tells me hes just regular. NOT! hes spectacular!

ROCK ON.......Trish
 
Trish,

I saw a Noam Chomsky movie (called "Manufacturing Consent" I think) where Chomsky observes that the largest and/or most intricate self-delusions actually REQUIRE a considerable amount of intelligence to undertake.

He is talking about politics when he says it, so perhaps finding that movie and watching it with your SO might be a roundabout way of introducing him to the idea?

Just a thought. Best wishes.
 
Sylvester,

Interesting concept. My b/f is very intelligent, which is something else I love about him. He's is also the king spin-doctor. He would have had a fabulous career as a publicist or some politician's savior had he chosen to go that way. I think it frustrates him to no end that he can't spin this one to the point where I will buy it.

I never heard of the movie you refer to, but I searched it on goodsearch.com (shameless solicitation for MS donations) :D and it sounds like something my b/f and I might actually enjoy. Thanks.

ROCK ON.......Trish
 
Trish,

a word of warning, no get mad at him, he will be totally confused with that response.
I guess he was talking thru his little boy mind who was only four years old!

Being mad at the man who is talking to you as if he is in his lil boy mind and who is telling you some of the hurt, is not going to help him.

A boy of four yo is a baby, and this happen to him, and even though he is a man now, he dont understand why, but it happened, and he would not know how to process it at that age, a baby age.

Its so easy to get mad at ppl who did these things, but you are inadvertantly taking it out on him, when, maybe he is dissociating back thru childhood memories.

Tell him that things no be bad anymore, and hug him if he wants it.
Thats all I guess he really needs, but no be mad, because it is negative thing to show,

ste
 
Ste,

I don't do that anymore. I express my frustration, calmly, and let him know that I 100% disagree with his belief that he somehow "caused" the abuse, but I don't get angry with him. When the subject comes up, I simply tell him what he desperately needs to learn - that the little boy did nothing wrong at all, he was just a little boy.

ROCK ON........Trish
 
Trish,

I didnt think you got so angry with him, but you can tell him probably till you turn blue in the face that it wasnt the little boys fault.

He was, I think only four yo, so if you look at any four yo boy, and see how angelic and trusting they are at that age, then it is easy to see how much damage can be caused at that age of total innocence.

The earlier it happens, the worse it must be, because his child mind could not process the hurt of being abused, especially if it was from those he trusted to be his guardians.

I read somewhere that a child will not have very much confidence until the age of 5yo, now academics have put it to more like 7yo, for boys.
Imagine the massive confusion and breakdown of confidence he suffered.

Its a long road, so just be there to listen when he feels safe to talk,

ste
 
Trish,

I am sorry if I seem to be jumping in, but I read stuff like this, about how different ages affect people.

I have a good book that explains it in more detail.
I dont want to go into too much detail at present, because I dont know how your relationship is with him.

I guess you are pushing the right buttons though and that is cool.

ste
 
Trish,

The thought that comes to mind is a saying I read in a book "To judge thyself is to break thine own heart....Stop it!"
Your bf has underwent a lot of brain washing throughout his childhood. This is a tough battle for him. I'm happy to read that he's going to therapy. This will be a powerful start towards his recovery.
Unfortunately your bf does not know of the treasurer he is. You are his treasurer for reminding him. His intuition about himself in the past had been terribly altered by a monster.

Keep loven him....
 
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