What does a 12 year old know? *Possible Triggers*

What does a 12 year old know? *Possible Triggers*
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onlyakid

I guess one of my bigger hangups is what exactly did I know about sex at the age of 12? I was watching this new show on FOX called "The War at Home" (which BTW is a great show, 8:30pm Sundays on FOX). Anyway, this 13 year old character Mike goes to his Dad for advice.
**TRIGGERS MAY BEGIN HERE**

Apparantly he's a chronic masturbator and has rubbed his penis raw. Dad tells him he shouldn't masterbate for a week and that he will get him something use while he is masterbating (aka a lubricant). Well his parents invite the sister's boyfriends parents to dinner to meet them and the boyfriends mother spills a white substance near her breasts. Not being able to masterbate this sexually frustrates Mike (the 13 year old). This brought up a lot of guilt issues as to what did I know at 12 years old, was I willing participant, this 13 year old seems to know alot about sex.

Maybe its just TV, but I feel like I need to get this out and see what other people think about a 12/13 year olds knowledge of sex.
 
Well I'm not a prude by any interpretation of the word. I certainly knew sod all at 12 years old (until I was given unwarranted education).

I suppose shows like this need to get the balance right between ensuring that young people do not see sex as something dirty. I do however wonder in this instance if the balance is correct.

Where do they draw the line - give it another 10 years, and are we going to have 5 year olds sat in a bath with a vibrating duck on live television?

In the media in the UK, we are constantly reading stories of American Female Teachers abusing their pupils - is it any wonder that the pupils are often receptive if this type of television program is accepted?

Best wishes ...Rik

What's the next episode? Some sort of paedo incestuous porno? It sounds like they are sexualising young children (even if it's an 'of age actor' that's playing the part).

Kids of that age should be climbing trees, collecting bugs & playing computer games - if they are experimenting by having the odd wank, fair enough.

I live in a country (England) that supposedly has some of the best sex education in the world - we also have one of the highest rates of under age pregnancies.

Kids might joke about sex, but do they ever understand the implications of what they are doing. To insinuate on television at 08:30pm that a 13 year old wants to jizz on his sisters potential mother-in-laws waps is not appropriate television however it's dressed up.
 
jtt5254
,
The 12/13 yo kids of today are way more informed and educated than yesteryear. I have a 13 yo and almost 12 yo. They have been taught most of the mechanics of sex in school and from older friends, but very little about the emotional side of things. I remember when I was 12 (1963), despite the abuse, I still knew very little about sex. And saying that is kind of weird considering the forced experiences I had. Peace, Andrew
 
jtt 5254,

Your post raises an important issue that seems to be troubling you. If I understand what you are worried about, it goes something like this: you were abused at the age of 12 and you wonder what you really knew about sex at that age, and whether, if you were "aware" for your age, that would have made you a willing participant.

Maybe the most useful way to figure this one out is to talk around a few of the main points. Here are my ideas.

While it's true that kids these days know a lot more a lot earlier in life than was the case years ago, I still think that there must be a lot of variations. Kids in functional families where the subject of sex can be discussed openly learn not just the mechanics, to steal Andrew's term, but also the rest of it as well. Others growing up in families where sex is a taboo will get an entirely different picture, and probably a lot less useful information. So the range must be quite broad. But wherever a child is on the spectrum, this input does not translate into any culpability whatsoever in an abuse situation. A kid can never be judged on the basis of what he did or didn't know about sex.

Another point closely related to this is that what we learned about from our abusers was rape, not sex. By the age of 12, when my Dad gave me "the talk", I had a full range of "sexual" experiences, but all hung on a frame of fear, shame and deception. When my Dad started talking about love and commitment I had no idea what he was blabbering on about; my abuser had somehow left out that part. It took me years to learn how to share sex as an expression of affection and love, rather than just "do it".

Last is the demon of the "willing partner". If you have fears and turmoil about this one you are in a very large club. A child may seem to be a willing partner and may feel that he is, but the fact of the matter is that a confused and frightened child is an easy victim. And as abuse continues it just gets worse. Abuse and the abuser's tricks and shaming strategies strip a boy of every shred of his self-respect and esteem. He feels so defiled, alone and ashamed that he will do anything; he figures what the hell, this is all he deserves. But in no way is the boy ever a genuinely willing partner, not even if his body responds to abuse by arousal.

So the bottom line bro, is that you have nothing to feel guilty about. The feelings of guilt aren't surprising, but none of what happened was your fault. What you did or did not know about sex has nothing to do with it.

Take care,
Larry
 
Yes, I think you've got the picture of what I'm trying to get at. However as many times as I've been told that what happened to me was abuse, it still goes back to well maybe it wasn't. I was "abused" by my brother at 12 when he was 15. I know that some times boys do experiment and I'm not exactly sure if thats not what this was. Plus the memories are sketchy enough so that I couldn't tell you if it happened 1 time or 20 times.

Thank you for all your insight but I think this is going to take alot more to convince me of what really happened.

Jason
 
From reading the other posts, I feel that I may have been a bit sexually precosious for 12y/o. At that age, I had been stealing playboys from the drug store and experimenting with friends, both male and female, though mostly male.

*** possible trigger***

This thought haunts me even to this day. did this pedophile somehow see this in me, profile me as it were. I remember that one of the first things he said to me that was outside the realm of his position as a priest, was to ask me if I had done anything bad with my friend who was also an altar boy. it was only after that did he begin to prey on me.

I don't know how much i knew about the "mechanics" or even the emotional side of sex, but I knew that it was something forbidden and exciting. I did not get excited however when he began to abuse me. I recall that I did know the distinction and that what he was doing was wrong. However, as I have found as the common M.O. is, he threatened me, befriended my very devout parents who were very active in the church, and made me feel shame for what I (unwillingly) did with him. What a combination.

I cannot say if I would have done anything different had the perp been a stranger or family member instead of part of the clergy, someone who was supposedly God's representative on earth. Too many "what-ifs". I know that I would be afraid to have a child today, knowing how much more kids are exposed to, graphic/promiscuous MTV stars, Paris Hilton on every mag cover.

I wonder if there are any other survivors who have begun to resolve their trauma and still decided to have children.
 
Lacansletter's post made me realize something and that is that there is no answer to my question of "What does a 12 year old know?". Why? Because it varies, sometimes widely. I guess I'm going to have to trust what I think I remember about my level of knowledge and from what I remember I was a nieve 12 year old.

Jason
 
I've been working on resolving what happened to me for some time now.
It wasn't until this last round of therapy that anyone really knew what CSA was all about.
My daughters could have had a better dad, a better example of what a good father was all about, but I muddled through, with the help of a very fine woman.

I told each daughter what happened to me when they reached the age that I was when it happeded to me. They weren't out of my sight much before that age. We didn't have much money while they were growing up...they never made it to Disneyland...but each of them has been to Europe with college choirs, both of them are entertainers, one in opera, one in musical theater. They're loving people who have many friends and they both are looking forward to having children someday and make reference to the "great job," that Ranata and I did as mom and dad. Incredible. I never did have the career, but I've got daughters who don't think of me as the ogre, all of the time.
I did have fear and trepidation, what parent doesn't, but the highs far ourweighed the pain.

Does this answer any of your question?

David
 
I'm gonna put a "TRIGGER WARNING" right here as I know that some of what I say below could be triggering to some - but I know no other way to get out what I need to say...

I gotta admit that this is a question that has haunted me for over 20 years...

by 12 I did know it all... - but, I trully believe that the only reason I knew it was because I'd been abused for years before that already...

but I also see the question a bit diffrent, as I've always wondered what my Uncle knew about sex (and how he'd learned it all at that age) - he was the one that was 12 - I was 4 - last time I mentioned his age someone else mentioned to me that he was just a 'kid' too - and that he probably did'nt know what he was doing... - all i know is what I remember - and I can tell you he definately 'knew' exactly what he was doing... - the level of 'grooming' that he used on me was not possibly just a coincidence (who taught him?)

Larry - where you wrote of the 'willing partner' really hit to the core of me - as I freely traded the abuse for my uncles affection towards me - by the time I was 8 I knew that what he was doing with me was wrong and yet it took me till I was 9 to stop him... - yeah, I'm deffinatly a member of that large group that is still trying to undo what he did to me...
- and when dad gave me the 'talk' I just very plainly and unemmotionaly told him very straightforward that I already knew everything that there was to know about 'sex' and he never even so much as questioned me about how I'd come to be so 'knowledgable' at the age of 13... (I would like to think that had I 'not' been abused - and that having been raised in the very controlling and issolating family that I was - I would have known 'nothing' of sex when my dad asked me that question at 13)

jtt - this really hit home with me too...
as many times as I've been told that what happened to me was abuse, it still goes back to well maybe it wasn't. I was "abused" by my brother at 12 when he was 15. I know that some times boys do experiment and I'm not exactly sure if thats not what this was.
Click to expand...
my brother is 20 months older than me - we used to do all kinds of sexual stuff with each other when the folks would leave us home alone (which was quite a lot)(from the time I was 5 untill we where into our teens) - I can even remember him trying to penetrate me more than once (but I don't remember him ever being able to) - and yet somehow I've just never been able to look at it as abuse - I've just somehow always thought that brothers just normaly did that kinda stuff... - learning that it's not just 'experimenting' is a hard pill to swallow...

My biggest hope for all here (myself included) is that someday we will all be able to 'know' in our minds that what was done to us was in no way our 'faults' - and that we will 'feel' deep in our hearts that we were always good people that just had bad things happen to us...

TJ jeff

P.S. - I just gotta admit that - man did this part ever trigger me back to my past -
Apparantly he's a chronic masturbator and has rubbed his penis raw.
Click to expand...
- I can remember how I'd do it so much when I was young that the skin would just peel right off - and it'd be so raw - and yet I still could'nt stop - still do it too much...

sorry - probably said too much - but hadto get it out in the open...
 
***TRIGGERS***

what exactly did I know about sex at the age of 12?
Click to expand...
I was 12 when my older brother started the SA of me. But to me, there were a lot more dynamics going on than just the sexual thing. There was a power trip as well, him knowing he had control over me and that I would do nothing about it. I was really very naive about sex when I was 12. I was the youngest of 3 brothers, and we all bathed together in a big old clawfoot tub until I know I was at least 8 or 9. So us being naked around each other was not that unusual. But then my brother, R, took it to another dimension. "You'll like it," he said. What did I know? I was a stupid kid. And then there were the threats. I had no really close friends growing up so I had no source for the inside on what sex was. Unfortunately, the SA by my older brother twisted that around in my mind so I got to live with 40+ years of wrong conceptions.

So, that 12 year old boy didn't know what was about to happen when his older brother started undressing him. And he didn't understand what semen was. I feel so robbed. Need to stop now.
 
jtt5254,

Coming back to this and rereading the posts on this one, I had a further thought on "what does a 12-year-old know" that came to me largely as a result of what you and others have said here about your older brothers. I am the oldest of three siblings and have two younger sisters, so I guess I am writing from what I recall about that scene.

A 12-year-old is about to enter the storm of teenagerhood, and one thing he absolutely "knows" is how important it is to be wanted, accepted, and loved. He will do almost anything to be appreciated and to "fit in", and in a family context an older brother who is just a few years older can easily be almost worshipped by the younger brother. Older brothers also seem to get a lot of automatic trust.

So when an older brother offers a younger sibling some tokens of acceptance and affections....wow!!!! To the younger one this must have seemed so cool: he likes me, he is including me, he wants to show me something. From the older brother's perspective there really is a big power thing going on. I remember this from relating to my sisters; we bickered and quarrelled, sure, but I was the big brother and they both really looked up to me and I loved that feeling.

If all this gets diverted into a SA scenario, then the damage to the younger brother must be incredible. His trust is violated, his feelings and hopes are invalidated, and his already fragile self-esteem is wrecked.

I guess where I am going with this is that the issue of what a 12-year-old knows is really complicated and includes many things that aren't sexual in and of themselves, but can be dramatically affected by sex.

Eddie, you said something that really moved me:

I feel so robbed.
Click to expand...
You were robbed bro, and in a lot of ways. I am so sorry.

Take care,
Larry
 
Your comments about worship of my brother, brought back this memory from my past. I remember my brother being friends with a foreign exchange student from your country (Bremen to be exact). He went to visit him in Germany and I remember going thru his stuff and listening to the music he brought back. So I guess I really looked up to him. What didn't help matters was that I wasn't very popular, so I didn't have many friends, this was due to all of the other traumas that were going on in my life, my father being sick, 2 of my grandparents dieing and my parents fighting (all within 2 years of the abuse).

Jason
 
Childhood innocence is so precious. It is thrown away by some, taken by others. Other than death, I don't know what is more sad for a young child.

I forever lament the theft of mine at 12.

The thieves that have done this to us should not have light punishment.
 
Wow, what a thread.

I always centered my childhood losses around 11 (1975), but I suppose the results are the same.

Eddie,

I feel so robbed.
Click to expand...
I always used the word "cheated" but I appreciate "robbed" more. I've been saying I was cheated for years. I got attitudes, behaviors, visuals, etc that skewed my perceptions of sexuality and relationship. All things an 11yo should not have to face.

I feel sad, for me, for all of you.

Andy
 
All this 12 year old was told was "don't take candy from strangers" with no explanation of why. That was the 1950's mindset. I didn't know what that meant at all and I didn't know to ask and I didn't know that the candy could be in different forms and that it wouldn't be the devil in his red suit with a pitchfork handing it to me. It would be a "nice" person that was in a position of authority that I trusted.

I have long since forgiven, however, if given the chance, in the proper setting, I really think I might be able to pull a switch or a trigger or push a button.
 
Jason,

My real brother wasn't my perp, although he was phyiscally/mentally abuse to me (8 years older). But in truth, I thought he was some kind of superhero. I would have done whatever he asked. He used to use me to bait girls and get dates. I would like to answer the 12 y/o question, but by then, I was already sexualized by the SA for a few years.
 
I was 19 when my SA took place, but for all intents and purposes, I might have as well have been 12 yo. That's where I was mentally and emotionally. With parents never there and having to muddle through life completely alone, there was no sex education of any sort in my child and adolescent years. Hell even in my 12 years since my abuse I still barely know a thing about sex, love and relationships. I'm still 12 yo.

How many endless times have I searched for personal experiences to be taught the proper ways of how to feel and love, only to be turned back time and time again? My parents aren't a source, nor is my family. I don't feel comfortable at all talking about these sorts of feelings with friends.

So I can understand what might happen in the mind of a young person wanting to learn these beautiful things. Some get to learn these beautiful things while others learn the things that should never even exist in this world.

***Possible Trigger***

I find it rather frightening that there are tons of children out there that are far more educated in sex than I ever was while in high school. The one and only class in sex ed that I was submitted to was by Mr. MacAdam (a catholic priest wannabe) who was probably even more traumatized than us kids, having to demonstrate the proper ways of using a condom while holding a cucumber. At the time, we all found it funny, but looking back as a 31 year old, man that must have been a truly embarassing thing to have to do as a teacher of catholic religious instructions. Suffice it to say he became much more "religiously tyrannical" in his classes from that point on, failing students left and right for the slightest of things.

***End of Triggers***

I'm really saddened at the thought that those of you who were 12 yo in actuality had to go through hell like that. I find it rough at having been 19 when it happened to me.

I miss the days of winter where I was riding my SnoRacer, or the days of summer riding my bike all over the place. Those were the only times I ever felt free. Man I miss those days...

MR
 
You know, its been kinda bittersweet recalling these memories from childhood. On the one hand I like them because it shows me at some points I was normal on the other hand it helps to sink in the fact that I was truly abused. The real sad thing about this is that I think I've felt this way before and it obviously didn't truly sink in. I hope that it does this time.

Also I think yes, I may be 27 chronologically, I am still emotionally between 12 and 14.

Jason
 
When I was twelve years old boys at my school would give me money and in exchange I'd tell them a sexy story or say 'swear words' for five minutes. That went on for a few weeks and I had a lot of customers. I could not understand why the boys were unable to make up dirty stories for themselves. I probably wouldn't have earned money like this, if I had not been SA'd at home for years already.
 
REading the replies on this posting makes me very sad. There is a little boy in every one of us. has anyone ready "Victims No More"? be forewarned that this is a very difficult book to read. I was in my early recovery (about 2 mos) and my therapist asked me to put it down. It was basically retraumatizing me. I am now about 11mos into recovery and thinking about picking it back up again but afraid of the strong emotions it unleashes.

I digress. The main idea that I got out of it is that there is a little [lacansletter] that lived through this but is "stuck" in that age because of the trauma. Weep for him, grieve his loss of innocence. But do not pity him. Honor him for he was strong enough to continue with life, truly was the child that was father to the man. There is a little boy in every one of us that we must nurture for he still has the perception of a 12 y/o who sees life as dangerous. If you were SA'ed by a family member or , like me, a respected member of the clergy, home was not even safe. I feel a horrible and painful empathy for that little boy. But I want to thank him for the man I have become. For grasping life regardless of the hurt, otherwise I would not have the love I have today.
 
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