What about forgiveness? (TRIGGERS, TRIGGERS, TRIGGERS)

What about forgiveness? (TRIGGERS, TRIGGERS, TRIGGERS)
T

Thomas

Registrant
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TRIGGERS TRIGGERS TRIGGERS
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I guess the time of year has got certain thoughts swirling around in that maelstrom that I thought was a fairly orderly brain.

I'll try to be as general as I can, but I will warn anyone that reads this that there will be triggers. My dad's dad was not a nice man. He sexually molested all his children - three girls and five boys(including my father). In fact, one of his daughters underwent an abortion due to being made pregnant by her old man. My grandfather also made passes at his sons' wives, my mom included. Grandpa also molested at least one of his grandchildren that I know of - me - and very possibly others. (Purely as a side note, I don't understand how this could be; Grandpa was the son of a Southern Baptist preacher :confused: .)

I've always been fairly religious. I was raised conservative evangelical of the Wesleyan Arminian persuasion. In my twenties, I became an Episcopalian, and in my thirties when I'd had enough of that, I became a Catholic. I've been a Catholic of varying degrees of practice for fifteen years now and I have absolutely no desire to change.

Now we come to the problem. About six years ago certain matters came to a head(as I look back, I realize part of the problem was the lingering effects of my sexual abuse). The result is that since Christmas Eve of 1999, I have not been to confession, mass, or communion. I find myself wanting to, indeed craving to go back very much.

Simple, you say? Just go to confession. But there's the rub. Forgiveness. I just can't forgive my grandfather, that bastard fucker, or my parents(who didn't protect me). In addition, in later years, my mother engaged in her own form of sexual abusing by turning me into her emotional spouse, "Mommy's little man," after Dad's drinking got very bad. I can't forgive that.

So I'm filled with all this anger and yes unforgiveness. Moreover, I'm not even sure what forgiveness is, let alone if I'll have it. So guys, here it is. What is forgiveness? How important is it? I'd like your thoughts and reactions.

Tom
 
Tom, I have forgiven many people for many things in my life before. Not SA, but some of the other stuff that is talked about here on these boards. It was without question the best thing that I ever did. When I did it, it was true and total forgiveness, and still is. As for the SA that brought me here, currently, I have no forgiveness in me for them. I don't know if I ever will. God is all forgiving, I am not God, nor do I pretend to be.

EDIT:
I should address your main question.

For me, I realized that I had truly forgiven someone when I could no longer remember the specific bad things which that person had done, just remember the general idea of what those things were, and saw past those things to a person who was nothing more than a person who made mistakes. Someone that I was able to care about after that.

Forgiveness is love in one of it's pure true forms. Since it is love, it's a gift, given freely and unconditionally.
 
Tom, I too was molested by my grandfather. I guess I have a kind of quirky way of looking at forgiveness. I keep reminding myself that many years ago the perpetrators themselves were children. I don't believe that they were evil as youngsters, or that they dreamed about one day becoming monstrous adults who molested children, nor can I can imagine that their lifelong ambition was to one day hurt their grandchildren. No ... I think something went terribly wrong. Terribly, terribly wrong. This isn't to say that they were not responsible for what they did, they most certainly were responsible! But I try to remind myself that somewhere, way, way back in their lives, they too were once innocent. It helps me to allow myself to forgive a little, and maybe hate a little less. Peace, Andrew
 
Thomas,
for me i found that forgiveness was a choice. It can also be a process. I found it wasnt easy to let go of my anger. It was something that took time to learn and put into practice. I felt the anger and the hurt for a long period of time (at times I still do), and then I had to work at seeing the circumstances and the problems created in my life from them. I came to a decision to decide to forgive because I experienced forgiveness myself and saw the advantage of it in my life.
I learned forgiving is not condoning. And that, "forgiving and forgetting" is not only impossible, but immoral. How can I forget what I experienced as a child? The pain, shame, humiliation, indignation and anger were perfectly understandable. But the process of forgiveness can be a liberating experience. You may have to work at repairing the relationships or learn to let go of the situations. I dont know.
But I wish you well and hope you can find it for yourself.

don
 
tom,
part of my mystagogy (continued faith journey) was, by my own choice, further study in theology once i was confirmed several years ago. i spent three years in the seminary trying to undo what my early childhood fundamentalist faith instilled. i am still on that mystagogical journey, tom, but i have learned a few things. when we go to reconciliation, we go not to be forgiven of God, who has already forgiven us with our remorseful heart...we go to be reconciled with the community faithful. we are called to try to forgive those who do us harm...only the saints are able to do this consistently, and only after years of trying. it is not up to us to forgive those who harmed us, tom, we are called to honestly try, there is a difference. forgiveness in the true sense is not forgetting it ever happened, or acting as though it never did. forgiveness is about empathy, on the one hand, and understanding on the other. those who hurt us did a great harm to us that only slowly, if ever, fully heals. it is okay to be angry. it is okay to try to forgive and not be able to make it. don was correct in that it would be immoral to forget what was done to us because that removes the responsibility of the choice from the one who hurt us and we do not have that right. there is no reason for you to stay away from the sacraments, tom. we are called to be a part of the faith community in the best way we can, we are not called to be perfect. the sacraments are there to give us strength to continue to try to live our baptismal vow, it is not a reward for perfect obedience. go and partake of the Eucharist, my friend, and gain the strength that is freely offered.
 
Tom,

The importance of this forgiveness thing of the
people who abused us is way down


here.

What is in between is a whole lot of living and recovering.
Some folks get this confused, like the chicken and the egg thing. You know, who or what came first.
For me, forgiving yourself and getting right with your world is first and foremost. Making certain that the people in your life are protected and loved is more pressing than worry of forgiveness of any perpetrator.

Besides, too many of us rush to forgive before we have had any chance at healing or recovery.

Give yourself some time to heal your wounds, care for your loved ones and maybe helping a brother or two here before thinking that somehow you have to forgive to heal.

That's maybe last on the list and it's ALWAYS a choice.

Peace, strength, courage and hope, as you struggle with the questions, and the answers,
to your recovery.

Your brother,

David
 
hello Tom:

what you describe your mother doing to you, 'mommys little man', is just what my mother did to me. some call it 'emotional incest'. i do not know if you are aware of that or not. i thought mentioning it might be of some help. i have read about this type of incest in two or more books. in one by mike lew i think. was it 'victims no longer'? i am not sure.

and, about forgiveness. i believe i have not reached the place where i can offer forgiveness. i have not healed enough, grown enough. perhaps one day i will be able to forgive those who wounded me. sincerely,


bec :)
 
Tom,

What was most important in my healing was for me to forgive myself. I will never forget what happened but I now understand much better the 'hows' and the 'whys'of what happened to me. I know in my heart that it wasn't my fault, that I didn't ask for it to happen. I understand so much more now why I wasn't protected by my parents, why I felt that I couldn't tell anyone. Maybe it is empathy, I just call it acceptance.

It is not my place to forgive the abuser, that is between him and God. I refuse to allow the abuser to have a presence in my life anymore.

Take care,

Steve
 
Tom,No where in the bible is forgivness given unless the person who did wrong ,repents and asks to be forgiven.My perp hasnt asked for me to forgive him.Nor has my parents for not protecting me.I have a forgiving spirit,but feel no guilt because i am guilty of nothing about the SA.////////////face
 
I still don't see why I must forgive "Dad".

I my opinion, I don't Need to. I can work through my anger issues without giving him that. In this, I believe its not my place to do so. I put his fate in God's hands. I try to do right & not continue his poison in my own heart & help the healing of other murdered hearts.

I have come far in letting the fires of hate burn low, one day the empers will be cool. That's as close as I, or he, will come to forgiveness.
 
Tom,

There are a lot of good answers here. I have to agree with these guys. Don't deny yourself, don't punish yourself just because you're a human having difficulty forgiving inhumanity.

I teach religious education for third graders at my parish, and they ask about forgiveness. They received the Eucharist for their first time less than a year ago. Everything has to be boiled down to basics for them, so I tell them that God will forgive anyone who is truly sorry.

Forgiveness really is between your grandfather and God. You have enough cut out for you to do your healing.

Thanks,

Joe
 
it is not up to us to forgive those who harmed us, tom, we are called to honestly try, there is a difference. forgiveness in the true sense is not forgetting it ever happened, or acting as though it never did. forgiveness is about empathy, on the one hand, and understanding on the other.
Click to expand...
Theo
If we try, that's all we can do.
And I think that the effort of trying to forgive our perps is a big part of forgiving ourselves, and that's the important part.

Dave
 
Boy o Boy,

Forgiveness it comes down to forgiveness to help you go back to church. Come on now how can you think of forgiveness? I get so mad when people say forgive and forget or dont hate life is to short or any other forms of just forgive. Hate is something that you have a right to feel. They stole your WHOLE LIFE AWAY! They took your self away and you want to forgive them? Forgiveness is something I cannot give them and tell the day I die I will always hate them, always. The one(s) who abused me, the one(s) who abused my brothers and all the rest of them. Do not waste your time on thinking about forgiving them, spend your time healing and trying to make life better for your self and loved ones.

lots of love, Nathan
 
Nathan
I might be contradicting myself here, but ..

I agree with Theo that some effort should be made towards 'forgiveness' - by making some effort we force ourselves to think about what went on, and while thinking about 'forgiveness' we should firstly concentrate on forgiving ourselves. NOT for what we did because we did nothing wrong, but for the peripheral things like hating ourselves.
I just think it's one aspect that should be thought about. Some people might grant their perps forgiveness, and that's their choice. If it helps them then that's a great thing.


Do not waste your time on thinking about forgiving them, spend your time healing and trying to make life better for your self and loved ones.
Click to expand...
Nathan, you wrote this and I think this describes where I'm at.
I have thought about forgiveness but I can't do it, I'll never forgive them I don't think.
But I'm certainly not going to waste time and effort on hating them either.
I have a very neutral feeling about my many abusers now, to me they are "non-people"

Dave
 
Tom-

Forgive? Forget?

I have typed those words on my screen & I sit looking at them.

I can never forget!
Can I forgive?

NO! Not the perp...But I aim to reduce the impact that 'those actions' have on my future.

Forgive...MYSELF...YES...although that is a contradiction - I HAVE NOTHING...NOTHING, TO FORGIVE MYSELF FOR!!!!!!!

NEITHER HAVE YOU!!!

The future starts right now!

Good luck...Rik
 
Guys,

Sorry I took so long to reply. Life has been very shitty in quite a few ways recently. I just want to thank all of you for your replies. Your honesty and your varied :D responses gave me much to meditate on. Again, thanks.

Tom
 
Technically, 'forgiveness' is a word. Yes, of course, it is an act of emotion and such. But it is a word. You do with it what you wish.

Forgiveness is in the eye of beholder. Perhaps for one person, to forgive is to relieve that person of all responsibility for causing harm. For another 'forgiveness' is maybe to not press charges and send someone to prison.

Forgiveness is more telling of the person doing it then the person recieving it. If to 'forgive' is something that you feel you wish for yourself, to have good feelings in yourself, then yes, perhaps it is thing to do. If to forgive is what someone considers because others tell them it is what they have to do, or what they 'should' do, then that is wrong. Never is it necessary to feel something you do not truly feel.

I wish you luck, with whatever you choose.

leosha
 
You brought this up in a religious context, so my comments will reflect that somewhat. I'm sure not trying to be preachy---this is a sensitive subject, and I know all the opinions in this thread are valid.

Here's my take.

I want to forgive, I think, but I've redefined the word in the light of the crime and its aftermath to myself and others. "I want to forgive the abuse, and not spend a lot of time worrying about the perpetrators". Picture a helium balloon rising slowly higher, finally out of sight. That's where I want to see my continuing hurt and keeping count go. That's what I'm calling forgiveness.

I don't think that 'forgiveness' means calling up any perpetrators and asking them to dinner, or saying "Let's be friends", or sending them a happy card. I'm serious. I have come to view it more like what AA says about things over which we have no control, "Let go, let God". (In this case: "Let GOD..hand out the punishment exactly as it should be handed out, and trust him to do that in all fairness and justice", maybe??).

Day-to-day, revenge-demanding, seething hate and anger will eat you up--physically, mentally, and spiritually. It hurts the already-wounded even more, and that's just no good. The perpetrators have hurt me enough already. Plus, I want to be a person who gives off kind vibes that contributes to a better space around me, and that people are drawn to, not a mean old man people avoid. That would be lonely.

You don't have to be perfect to have a relationship with God, or no one could have one. You can go to a place of worship before you have forgiven everyone of everything, or no one could go. The sexually abused are not the only ones carrying grudges--I know that's blunt, but I'm not the only one mad at someone and not over it yet. If they can go to worship God and learn about Him, apparently so can I. (And going may actually be part of the healing/forgiving process I'm after).

I will 'work on it' by keeping my heart open, and that's the best I can do. The abuse has challenged my spirituality and trust in God, and I don't go as much as I used to yet, but I do what I can. And I try not to carry hate as a weapon, ready to strike. I hope that counts--I think it does.

I hope that helps in some way. I'm sorry you were hurt like you were, so too the others here, and so too myself.

May you find peace, or peace find you,

Sincerely,

Ed
 
Tribear,

Just now read your response. You are right about the day-in, day-out anger and lust for revenge. At the same time, I have spent a lifetime of denial, denying the memories that anything happened at all, denying my anger, denying my pain, etc. At this point I am tremendously confused.

But I have made one decision. I am returning to the Church. Tomorrow afternoon I will meet with a priest at the Cathedral here in Boise for Confession. Maybe I can get some of this confusion sorted out. Pray for me and think the good thoughts for me, guys. This is a very special and healing place and you are the ones who make it that way.

Tom
 
tom,
go in peace, and know that the embrace of the Spirit is true and loving. you are in my thoughts and prayers.
 
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