virginity

virginity
R

roadrunner

Registrant
Hi guys,

Bec started a thread ("Struggling") in which he raised quite a few issues. I thought it might be useful to pick up and isolate just one here that seems to have drawn special reaction. Virginity.

To begin with, I lost mine at the age of 17 - a long time ago! - but I can't say it was a particularly wonderful experience. It was actually rather embarrassing for both myself and the girl (she was also a virgin), and I was surprised that I did not come out of the experience as I thought I would. The girl and I were close, we were curious, we did it - that was about it. It was exhilarating, that was for sure, but afterwards I was still shy, awkward about many things, insecure, and all the rest. Nothing had been resolved - there was no "jump" to some kind of cool, new, confident, omnipopular Larry.

Like most boys, I had bought into the old idea that losing one's virginity is something that a boy needs to do, as quickly as possible, in order to become "a real man". But that was of course just one aspect of the general traditional bullshit that also holds that a "real man" is able to use, deceive and control women, that he ought to be a rough character ready to settle any disagreement through violence, that he "needs" various phallic symbols like guns, hog motorcycles and fast cars, that he ought never to confess weakness or failure, that he ought never to cry or show emotion, and on and on and on. A "real man" is a "conqueror" who measures his self-esteem through physical victories such as winning fights, sleeping with as many women as possible, dominating peers, and driving faster than some other idiot on the road beside him (a guy he has never seen before!). So men who are virgins, men who cry, men who prefer to curl up with Wordsworth or Voltaire rather than Mechanics Illustrated, and worst of all, men who are gay, how can they possibly have any self-respect at all? And do they deserve any respect from the rest of us?

This nonsense is fed to us on a more or less constant basis by the world we live in - we all know how: TV, mags, films, media, etc. Boys "learn" the drill from adolescence onward, and it is only natural that this continue to affect how they see things as adults.

I am not a counsellor, but I have been dealing with teenagers and young men in their 20s for most of my adult life, and over the decades a lot of this kind of thing has rolled across my threshhold: precisely this issue, broken relationships, problems with friends, and so on. So it is something I have had to think about and comment upon. What I would like to say to Bec and others who feel badly about themselves because they are still virgins is that virginity has nothing to do with your value as a person. It is not something that somehow cancels out all your other good qualities and things you have achieved in your life.

If someone came to me and said hey, I have just slept with my 100th woman, my first thought would be: What an idiot. If I paid any further attention to the matter I would be regretting how shallow and empty his life must be. Does he really think this is some sort of achievement? For me it is no less ridiculous to think less of a person because he is a virgin - of whatever age. A very close personal friend of mine is a Catholic priest and a scholar who works in a field close to mine. He laughs when the topic of sex comes up and simply says: Well, can't say I can comment on that! We all smile and the conversation moves on. I respect him enormously as a friend, and yes, as a man.

Maybe it is useful to remember that sex and virginity are really sensitive issues among males. It is perfectly understandable that teenagers should fantasize about this and invent imaginary "conquests" to impress their friends. And many men carry this on into adulthood. There may be only a few men who would admit they are virgins, but I bet in reality there are a lot more. Just like masturbation: everyone does it but many won't admit it (again, because doing it suggests that you can't make your "conquests"). And surely one has to bear in mind that a history of abuse as a boy has a habit of being a bit inconvenient where expression of sexuality in adulthood is concerned.

I am not saying that sex isn't important - of course it is. And if being a virgin troubles you, then that is an issue that needs to be addressed. And I have not even touched on the question of porn, which of course makes everything a lot more complicated, especially in the context of this forum. There is also the troubling question of whether having been abused means you are not a virgin anymore. I wondered a lot about that when I was a kid, but in those days there really wasn't anyone I could talk to. It was strange: I hated the idea that what he had done to me made me not a virgin, and at the same time I hated the idea that perhaps, after all, I really was still a virgin. Go figure.

So maybe all this is just too simple. Fair enough. Still, I still think it is worth stressing that virginity is not and can never be a measure of someone's value as a person. Bec, if your virginity is a problem that troubles you then perhaps the first thing to be said is okay, but it isn't now and never was your fault. As for the rest, if I were a virgin I would happily say so here; others who share your situation have already done so. It's like that wonderful thread that Kevin started on stuffed animals: of course it's "okay" to still like them or have them, and the only reason we wonder about it is the old "real man" question. The sooner that nonsense fades out the better. I would much rather fill my life with friends who feel and think and relate to others as equals, than clutter my day with shallow boring "conquerors".

Sorry it has taken so long to get this point across. But hey, I am a teacher and an academic. I make my living on the maxim of never one word where ten will do!

Larry
 
Larry
I agree with you wholeheartedly.

'Macho bullshit' is one of my pet hates!

Dave
 
Larry,

thanks so much for your comments. i appreciate them and i agree with what you mentioned on manhood, virginity, machismo, being able to express feelings/grief, etc. sadly, yes, there are many negative, harmful stereotypes in the western world on manhood. hopefuly talking honestly about them in a forum like this can be of some help in fighting these stereotypes. sincerely,


bec
 
Another self-respecting virgin chiming in.
(I refuse to allow anything done to me to count)
 
I am not one. And my first experience was as someone very young with someone much older, like ten years older then me. It was interesting. I have had relations with few other girls. But nothing since I live here, for 2 years now. Sometime it feel it is an urgent 'need' like. But not mostly. Mostly it feels like, maybe I do not think on it right because the past. I have friend who have only had relations few times, with only the one girl he is with now, and he is five years older of me. I have another friend six years older of me who has had relations with much more ladies, but also had been abused and had done things when he was without a home and living 'on street'. I respect both them equal. I do not think sexual choices make or mistake the man, or woman. It is just a thing. Not who we are.

Andrei
 
Thought I'd chime in. This is an issue I struggled with for a while.

I'm a virgin. It's not something I go around announcing. It's not something I'm ashamed of, not exactly, but it's something I've gotten in the habit of not discussing.

What bothered the most when I really started dealing with things wasn't that I was a virgin, it was was that I felt as though the choice had been taken away - I couldn't have sex because I was broken, not because it my choice not to.

I've realized that's simply not true. Looking back, there were opportunities. Several of them were instances where I could have taken advantage of a girl's crush. I didn't - not because the abuse had left me so broken that I could not perform - but because I didn't want to. That's not who I am.

The abuse has made it difficult to let someone close enough to develop a relationship that leads to making love, but that's something I'm working on. It's something I'll overcome. So, there's nothing wrong with being a virgin because, hey, it's been my choice after all.

As far as whether or not the abuse makes you not a virgin, well - I've never willingly performed a sexual act so I'm damn well a virgin! And I'm content to be so, for now.

So, the best advice I can give you is: Why do you think it's bad to be a virgin? Is it a power issue? Worrying that you're lacking experience and it will somehow show in your life?

One of the ladies in the "Friends and Family" forum made a comment earlier this year that helped me quite a bit. I can't remember her screenname but she said "Actually, I find it endearing to date a man who's a virgin". That helped calm me down a lot.

Ultimately, at least for me, it comes down to: I have control over that portion of my life and there's nothing wrong with it. When I meet somebody, well, it'll be a fun night. :) Until then, I've got other things to worry about.
 
Just saw this post and it resounded something inside me. Being abused as a child, sex was already something that had been thrust upon me. Interestingly, I made the decision to view myself as a virgin, for the same reason that others have mentioned in this post. I was not the willing participant and it was not an "act of love" which I believe sex is meant to be, so on my wedding night I was a virgin and it really was my "first time", as it REALLY and PHYSICALLY was for my non-abused wife.

Maybe, this is all just a con in my own mind to help me cope with my past, but even if it is I'm sticking to it. I won't have that also robbed from me. My first time of having sex by choice was with the person of my choice. I lost my virginity on that night thankyou very much.
 
My wife and I were talking about this just the other week. She had always asked me if I regretted not being with any other women. I always said no.

But the other night something from the abuse hit me and I had to admit to her that I do regret it. Not that I care that I didn't sleep with other women and I don't wish I had been with any other. I just wish that I would have made a choice to wait. The only reason I waited was because I was afraid of sex.
 
I was surprised when I saw this resurface, and it reminded me that I got a LOT of PMs when I started this thread back in May. What was especially interesting (to me, that is) was that hardly any of the PMs had to do with the problem I was addressing in the post, which was the modern male view of virginity and how it links up with a lot of "macho" nonsense.

The PMs I got, many of them from younger members who were too embarrassed to speak in a public forum, mainly addressed the point raised now: does abuse mean that the special character of the "first time" has been robbed from us as well?

Speaking for myself, I have to admit that this didn't occur to me when I was 17. I was already sunk in denial about my past as an abused kid; I was very curious about sex and was with a girl I felt very close to. I do recall a lot of guilt and confusion afterwards, and throughout my bachelor years I was never a "player" and was only sexually active with women with whom I was in a relationship. That said, I know I have thought of it all as sex "for the hell of it" anyway, though clearly it wasn't. I have no explanation for this mish-mash of conflicted feelings, apart from the very general and obvious one.

I wish the younger members who PMed me in May had felt able to come on the DB with their feelings about this. They had a lot of heart-felt and serious comments to offer, as they did on so many other subjects. Without naming names, I will just say that there was a lot of anxiety about having lost that special "first time", whether by virtue of what happened during abuse or because of acting out later on. My thought in response was that CSA is about misuse of power and not about sex. The "first time" is, as Grunty puts it, about being with someone by choice and because this is what you both want, together. I don't think that's a con at all, Grunty; it's an excellent way of making an important point.

Though I was not a virgin when I got married, I do think that sex as an act of shared commitment with someone with whom you are deeply and hopelessly in love is always, somehow, a "first time". It makes my day to see that screwed up as I am, I can still pull a thought like that out of my head.

Take care,
Larry
 
Since a new member is talking about this I thought it might be useful to refloat this again.

Much love,
Larry
 
Im not a virgin, but I was one for many years! I dont count my abuse, I count wanting someone who wants me.

Anyway - I couldnt do casual or in anyway sex where there was any doubt about the girls motives.

I think having been used and abused it makes us ultra sensitive about using others.

I have always had this escape mechanism whereby if I think the girl is not 100% into this I cant get a stiffy, its always been this way.

Its easy to make someone agree to sex, to charm them its different to find someone who wants you because your you.
 
well i never had sex with a girl,but i dont think i'm a virgin,dont being a virgin have to do with being innocent? you know that first time with a girl when you dont have a clue about sex?i think that is one more part of growing up that the abuse took from me.when i am with a girl it will be my first time ,but it just wont be the same. shadowkid
 
Shadow,

I guess it depends on whether you define sex as just the physical act or as really sharing your sexuality with someone because you both want this. I think the latter is what really counts. When your time comes, just be yourself and it will be wonderful.

Much love,
Larry
 
Let me start with the issue of virginity, it has been consistently been the a hallmark of our self worth, in our ability to find a mate. As primates being able to breed meant a world, as only then we would be able to pass on our genes and hence not die.

Animals fear being lonely as it meant starvation and death, but for human beings aloneness often leads to enlightenment.

Luckily human being are evolving from this needs to perpetuate only through our children. Let me ask you, how many great people do we recall only because they had great children or for that matter great sex life.

We remember them for what they did and they way they changed thier own destinies and the destinies of the nations they lived in. We remember them because they continue to inspire us with the life as with their life's work.

What we choose to leave behind is not what defines our life. What defines is the way we lived it for ourselves, did we lead a happy and fulfilling life given the constraints we brought in along with our life scripts that is the challenge that is presented to each human being who descends here, how to live a better life with what you have got, and not get more than what you have got.

Great people are great not because what they were born with or not born with or not even what they went thru, but they were and are great because of what they turned their lives into.
That is inspirational stuff. And that is the challenge here. In short they lived a great life, that I believe should be the criterion for living.

It is not my past, but what I am doing with my life right now would define my future. Life always is what we put into it.
 
Lets talk a bit about our ideas about masculinity, its expression and of course its symbols.

We all define our sexuality in our unique ways, because we experience it differently.

For some it also includes the idea of their femininity, and that is when they transcend the traditional gender stereotypes and become a complete human being. When you allow the merger of both your femininity and masculinity you find your true sexuality.

Its expressions can be varied as us.

But let us go a step beyond this and go into the realm of pure energies and address the presence of both feminine and masculine energies in us, the yin and yang. It is the balance of these two vital expressions of the life force energy that empowers us.

"The masculine provides skillful means;
The feminine provides wisdom.
Both come together in the enlightened being."

-Lama Tenzin Rimpoche

The real challenge is to allow the expression of what is true for us, in this moment.
 
Historically we are entering an era which would signify the return of the feminine, the nurturer and the healer.

No wonder we are seeing greater expressions of the feminine all around, have you ever wondered why has gay culture suddenly become so much part of the visible main stream culture, why the colour pallete for men is tranforming so rapidly along with thier sexual pallette?

That is all because we are experiencing a new paradigm, where the male and the female are reaching out create a greater balance.

The only way to save this planet.

We all remember the perils of the extremist expression of the masculine, the war and the techical explosion that have made modern life so unhealthy and scattered.

It is the return of the organic, the natural, and an existence in humility of the mother nature.

The feminine has been on the rise to bring the balance back. For that matter we are seeing greater expressions of balanced power people, people who think the old ways of expression of both genders are just old stereotypes.

And we wonder where would it lead us next?

The rise of the new man, ...or should I say the new Human.
Clearly we need a new vocabulary here!
 
Here it comes again! There has been discussion on the DB about virginity, so I thought it would be okay to refloat this thread from last year.

I reread it again and my first reaction was my God, how much have I grown since May 2005! There's a lot I have discovered about my past that would change what I say here, but that's not the point.

The thread starts off on the issue of male macho attitudes towards being an adult and still a virgin, but in later posts the discussion shifts to the topic of interest on the DB now: the question of whether abuse means that we aren't virgins when we have sex willingly for the first time.

Much love,
Larry
 
I'm really iffy on this topic. I tend to agree with shadowkid's stance. My "first time", excluding the abuse, simply did not stir the types of feelings you're supposed to be having during your first time. It just didn't feel the way I think it was supposed to. Now, to be fair, it's true that everyone who's trying it for the first time typically has a set of expectations that are just as likely to be false as true. But this wasn't about expectations not being met; it was about looking back over the experience and finding nothing of note. Ten minutes later, it may as well have never happened - I didn't feel different, I didn't act different. It didn't change me at all, not one bit. If "virginity" is supposed to represent the ideal of sexual innocence, and can only be willingly given away, shouldn't this "transfer" be at least detectable afterwards? Shouldn't you notice something different?

I didn't, and I suppose it could be because it wasn't there. A pity, certainly, but there's not exactly a whole lot I can do about it.
 
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