victim as perpetrator

victim as perpetrator
Hi Michael,

Seeing a little 3yo as a darling little guy that you know worships you and you feel the same way about him, just shows you are a loving kid, (at the time.)

Plenty of parents and grandparents have looked at their offspring and thought of how handsome or beautiful they are sure to be. Some even start worrying about that at about age 7 or 8.

Others have mentioned how normal it is for a teenage guy to be paritally aroujsed--not just teenagers, when taking a shower. You are a normal male--celebrate! You were strong to not just drop the towel, or walk cloose to him and hope he would touch you. You did well. You are strong. You are a good guy. Let the quilt and self-hate go. Celebrate the fact that you cared enough to keep a kid safe when that was difficult to do. If I had a medal I would give it to you.

I truly hope all that false guilt and self-hate of the years can evaporate. It gets in the way of workikng on issues that are real.

Bob
 
Sorry Michael, but if you are going to use phrases like "almost raping" then you can expect that people may question you. My intention wasn't to upset you, just to bring the whole issue to a head. It seems like that is exactly what it has done. Your therapist made it very clear to you that your thoughts and fantasies do not constitute rape or anything like it. Good. The issue should be closed now. Bob had some good things to say, listen to him. I was a little concerned that you had the need to escalate the fantasy level in your narrative,but I don't & didn't assume anything Michael. If you read my two previous postings on this topic, you would know that I believed you and felt very sorry and angry that you carried this burden unnecessarily all these years. Hopefully, you will be able to reconcile your thoughts and actions now, and begin to feel good about what was a fairly typical teenage response.
 
I first posted this on November 10, on the At Risk forum, but it fits this topic as well, what Michael talks about is a fear - a dread for us. And I've said so many times before - the line we walk is soooo thin.
********************************

I think that one of the most frightening things that has ever happened to me took place about 1 year after my abuse stopped, I was about 16 and I came so close to abusing my cousin one day. He's about 2 years younger than me, the same kind of gap between me and my abusers.

The memory of those few minutes, no more than 15 or 20, are burned into me like a brand.
I remember clearly how I manipulted the circumstances and steered the talk towards sex.
What stopped it happening I don't know, although my cousin is very strong willed and always has been. Maybe he had such a strong personality that it kept me away. There was never anything vulnerable about him, still isn't.

We still see each other and he's cool with me, so I don't think he fully realised what was going on - I hope not.

Like I said, I remember this clearly, and this is the main reason we have no kids. I'd seen my dark side and didn't like what was there.
The thought of going that route was clear enough to me, and somehow repugnant enough for me to never go down that road again.

But it's such a fine line, I don't know how or why I made the decision that pushing sex onto someone younger and weaker was a bad thing to do, I'm just so glad I did.

I'm just staring at the screen, wondering about finishing and sending this. It's the first time I've ever memntioned it to anyone. To hell with it............

Dave
********************

That really was an ordeal to write about, I still have bad feelings about it.

But I've read Michaels posts and recognised the strength he had - still has - to have walked away.
It's easier to see it in others.

I hope that's what happened to me, a sudden burst of strenght.

Dave
 
michaelb:

i'm in awe of your strength and courage to first post what you did and then to defend yourself in response to a ridiculous attack by andrew-almost. if you can join MaleSurivor, you can make posts in the members forums that are geared toward sensitive and oh so difficult issues that some of us deal with.

much has been written hear and honest, real honest sharing. i can relate to what dave just posted, it's one of the reasons i decided to never (well for past 20yrs) get married and have kids: i felt like a potential for abuse was in me that i couldn't guaruntee the family's safety.

hang in there michaelb.

andrew-almost:
Sorry Michael, but if you are going to use phrases like "almost raping" then you can expect that people may question you. My intention wasn't to upset you, just to bring the whole issue to a head. It seems like that is exactly what it has done.
Click to expand...
I'm not going to bother with quoting your inapropriate post (posted January 09, 2003 02:48 PM), talk about taking something out of context...

andrew - don't you ever think first before you write? do you read all of what a man has written before responding? it wasn't your intention to upset upset michaelb? then what was it? oh I get it... it's ok to call another man a rapist here, stupid me. who the hell are you to "bring the issue to a head"? a trained therapist, a moderator here, someone in a position to need to do something??? i suggest, sir, that you learn about sensitivity and awareness of issues beyond your realm of experiences, and THINK before you post. do you have a clue how much of a risk michaelb took in exposing himself here? the last thing I NEED in my OPINION, is to be made to feel as though taking a risk, opening up and feeling safe can't happen here at MaleSurvivor! Seeing your lack of compassion and understanding toward michaelb has really gotten me angry. Haven't I (all of us) experienced enough of that in the past??? THESE POSTS ARE MODERATED BY A GROUP THAT INCLUDES THERAPISTS!!!! AND THEY GET FEEDBACK FROM EACH OTHER AS A GROUP WHEN DECIDING IF ANY ACTION NEEDS TO BE TAKEN!!

:mad: :mad: :mad:
 
OK folks:
Guy 43 wrote:
a trained therapist, a moderator here, someone in a position to need to do something???

I'm hoping that you all have some faith in my judgment and sensitivity. I'm asking everyone to pull back a bit and not get bent out of shape. I think michaelb and andrew_almost are taking some things out of context. I'd like to get a discussion going that may help people realize that feelings to perpetrate are not uncommon among abuse survivors and that comments to that effect are not necessarily insensitive.

I'm not the moderator here. Dave, I think, is, but he is six hours east of the US and is sleeping (or should be) while this dialog is going on.

I've got a granddaughter visiting here for the weekend who is waiting for me to join her and her grandmom for a game of cards, so I'd like to join them as soon as possible.

In any event, I think, from my initial reading of the posts here, that michaelb deserves credit for talking about something that has been so difficult for him to deal with. I think Andrew's comments have been supportive in intent but have either been less than sensitive or may have been misinterpreted. I don't think that they were malicous or intentionally negative in any event.

So, everyone, take a deep breath and recognize that sexual feelings towards others (including children) which may have been caused by the sexual abuse perpetrated on a survivor, do not mean a person is a potential sexual abuser. Feelings happen.

Let's not get into a flaming war. Let's remember that we are all here for the same purpose... to heal and prevent sexual abuse of another generation.

Peace.
I go to play poker with a 9 year old card shark.
Ken
 
Thanks for trying to calm the waters Ken.

Guy43, I'm sorry. It seems I pushed every hot button you own.

Respectfully, I do give thought before writing. In this particular posting, I thought about editing it, and therefore consulted by PM a moderator. Here was their response to my asking if I was over reacting to MichaelB.
.................................................

"It shows a lot of sensitivity that you ask.

Your noticing the escalating storyline was very perceptive.

IMHO pointing this out to Michaelb in itself seems a practical & caring response.

Possibly your conclusion could be taken as a bit blunt (which to me isn't necessarily bad): "Are you trying to tell us something? I am worried for you Michael. Perhaps any further details may be better shared by way of PM with K. Singer. Peace, Andrew"

Obviously, I'm not Michaelb & I'm not in his shoes. All I can say is, this response, including your conclusion, seems to me to express common sense & genuine concern.

I guess the most important thing is what Michaelb thinks about your response, if he's said anything at all about it.

At any rate, I would think your concern & support would be appreciated."
..................................................

Obviously my concern & support are not appreciated ... or perhaps what I said touched a lot of very raw and open wounds. I must admit that I had no idea that SA survivors would be any more likely to perpetrate or be tempted to than the ordinary guy on the street. Ken's revelation about this comes as a surprise to me.

I think MichaelB and Dave talking about their fears and doubts about all this is very brave. Although I have to say Dave. Being tempted to have sex as a 16 yo with a 14 yo cousin doesn't sound like SA to me.... more like two teens experimenting.

Oh well. Enough said. I don't think there is anything I can say that will make a difference in the way you perceived things guy43. And for that I'm sorry.

Peace, Andrew
 
Well, clearly a lot has happened here since I last checked in this morning...

Ken, thanks for stepping in. I agree with your assessment of what's happening, as well as your words concerning everyone involved. Thanks for your words of wisdom & peace. Hope you enjoyed your poker game and didn't get taken too badly. :eek:

As one of the moderators of this forum, answerable
to Dave who is the discussion board administrator,
I have little to add to what Ken has said.

With him, I hope that this thread can be a peaceful, thotful, sensitive discussion "that may help people realize that feelings to perpetrate are not uncommon among abuse survivors and that comments to that effect are not necessarily insensitive."

There is indeed a thin line between non-perp & perp; and dialog about these feelings may help us to deal with them before we perpetrate, help us to understand perps better & possibly prevent future perpetrations, and understand our fellow survivors & ourselves, who have been perpetrated against, better.

In that spirit of mutual understanding & support, let's all try to learn from the things we have shared with one another in these posts, trying to draw the best out of them and as always leaving the rest.

And I hope all of you, and others, will continue to post on this thread and make positive contributions to what has been & can still be a very helpful discussion & powerful learning experience. Each of us has so much to offer one another.

Take care all

Victor
 
And one of the great things about this site is we get to learn about things we haven't been aquainted with and things which may strike a nerve within ourselves. Sometimes as painful as that is, it is the most healing thing we can do.

Just a thought...

And remember be good to yourselves.

Don
 
Hi Michael.

I hope things are better for you today, hang in their. I still think you have little to feel embarressed for.

I also thank you and Dave for your bravery in approaching this extremely difficult topic.

From what you say about borderline personnality disorder, I think, had I been seen by a psychiatrist a couple of years ago I may have been diagnosed with this condition. I was extemely low and my bulimia was in full flight as was my self burning. I had planned suicide over the course of a week. The build up was wonderful having made my decision. I was spending the week with my then girlfriend, (who was married). At the end of the week she was going back to her husband and I was going to take my life, simple or so I thought until she found my note the day of my planned suicide. A couple of months later I actually took the tablets etc only to realise I couldn't go through with it. I was able to make excuses as to why I took the tablets. (I have a neuro condition that causes extreme pain). So I wasn't in the clutches of the psychiatrists.

I did however have an extremely supportive person-centred counsellor who was with me through it all. At the end of the phone and in person. She was amazing.

I realise that your condition is probably more advanced than mine, but I just wanted to point out that there is hope. I'm now at college, training to be a counsellor and working voluntarliy for a couple of charities. I'm not bulimic anymore and haven't burnt myself in well over a year. Things aren't perfect by a long way but they are definately better.

Thanks to Ken too for the info.

Be good to yourself Michael.

Mark
 
Don, that is a very good point, and thank you for sharing it.

Michaelb, as so many have said here, you are indeed very brave both for your original post and for continuing to stick with this thread--I hope you can continue to do so. And thank you.

This thread can still have a lot for all of us to contribute to and to learn from.

Victor
 
mark:

thank you for coming back to address michael's points and sharing from your own experience, strengths and hope.

andrew:

i don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on what you and i have written in this thread, so i'll go back to my corner of the confrontational boxing ring and do my best to keep a lid on my responses to what you may post. many of your posts lately (meaning other threads over the past few weeks and your first couple of replies in this thread) have been right on target, in context and supportive, to the point and insightful. let there be peace between us andrew, i don't want to fight with you, it won't serve either of us.

in a way, perhaps an unhealthy manner, i don't know if it is or not, my anger toward you and letting myself express it here is sort of like practicing confronting my perp. if this is what i've done, i apologize to you andrew. you are not my perp and don't deserve to be the target of my anger that may be coming out from my unconscience. my anger was also my attempt to come out in defense of the underdog as i saw it here (michael). what am i doing defending another man who may or may not need it, when i should be standing up for myself instead?

ken and the others who responded to my rant:

i agree that turning this into a flame war serves no purpose and i don't want to do that. here are some of my thoughts in no particular order:

a) this thread contains many difficult topics, among them in my opinion are:

- the victim as perp first post and title of this thread... and all the thoughts posted on this topic. this is such a triggering topic i wonder if it can be discussed rationally? i hope it can, i hope i can, because some of what's been written strikes core issues for me. ken's lengthy reply from a lecture of his (btw - thanks ken) in this thread addresses some of these issues and it contains many challenging and thought provoking idea's.

- the shame and difficulties of dealing with physcological diangnoses on top of whatever sexual abuse issues we may have. i have all of this, several diagnoses and the shame of dealing them and my abuse issues.

b) writing clearly and concisely is difficult for me. i have to work at it and take my time choosing words and then going back to review and make corrections to what i've written.

i wonder how many people read these many forums on this dicussion board and don't toss in their thoughts because they feel ashamed about their writing ability? i know it has been said before, it doesn't matter what one's skill in writing is, just post whatever one can.

in my contorted, distorted and not so humble opinion, i believe many readers could post and don't and i urge you to do so.

c) context. on top of item b) is the difficulty of keeping what i write in the context of the subject at hand. it's so easy to misunderstand what someone has written. one verbal discussion could make things instantly clear, whereas writing out what i mean takes forever. oh what a fickle, tricky road i walk when i interpert or misinterpert what has been written.

i've run out of steam to continue this.

i'm in a really bad place right now which is why, in part, i went off the deep end with my reply to andrew. i'm going to start another thread sometime today to get other things out in the open for myself and to get some feedback i need.

peace to all my brothers and sisters here.

-jer
 
Victor,
Its a point that I have to continually remind myself of so that I stay open to things that have come into my field of view. There have been topics in the past for me that were so triggering and I really struggled with. To most people they were every day conversation but to me, I would become outraged at the mention of them. With time, I have begun taking the power from these things and using it to empower myself... but that process was not an overnight one...

And as always, everyone be kind and gentle to yourselves...

Don
 
Jer, you wrote:

"one verbal discussion could make things instantly clear"

I realize I took this little sentence out of context but it is so true. Sometimes face to face verbal discussions are much easier to interpret, you get to see facial expression and voice inflections etc. I actually don't think you and I really disagree on the whole issue of
victim to victimizer Jer. We both agree that children have to be protected and all adults have the responsibility to do just that. I have read almost every posting you have ever written, and agree with pretty much everything you have written, which for me is quite unusual. ;) You have a direct and honest quality to what you write, and I admire that.

There is something I want to add to this thread. I keep having a recurring thought that SA survivors keep on beating themselves up for having been victims themselves. They(we) seem to hold ourselves up to higher sexual moral standards. i.e. we allow normal sexual fantasies to cripple our psyche's & stilt our behaviour. The fact is IMHO, we are sexual beings first, victims second. We are going to have all the usual sexual thoughts that everyone else has. I guess the trick is not only in learning how to live as a survivor, but learning how to live as sexual human beings. Peace to all of us. Andrew
 
Andrew....i hold no hard feelings towards you, i understand how difficult this issue is to understand....hell, i have not begun to understand it, i may never understand......my second posting to you was because i had re-read your posting and realized you were offering encouragement in your posting, but you just did not have the same experience that i had....again, I AM SO HAPPY FOR YOU.....because it is not a cross i would wish any body to bear......

Dave.....what can i say about how much your coming forth has meant to me....though i agree with andrew that a 16-year-old with a 14-year-old is closer to experimentation, any significant age difference inappropriate sex is CHILD ABUSE!!!!!.....my therapist used to refer to it as a 3 year age difference window, so in that context it would not be considered abuse if you had persued a sexual encounter....what has touched my heart is that there is another living individual who has experienced the same thoughts/feelings of guilt and shame.....for 30 years i thought i was the only person in the world like myself....i was a PERVERT for simply having those thoughts......i'm still unable to give that perception up, but i feel like i am not alone......at least in this regard......

Ken.....hope you beat your 9-year-old card shark and thank you so very much for trying to calm the waters my first response instigated.....one of my personality problems is that sometimes i tend to dramatize things...i know i did that in my first response to andrew, that is why i posted the second time.....

mark.....from what you told me, i'm guessing you may have been diagnosed with bpd....but i agree with you that diagnosis are very misleading, because people like myself read everything available on the subject and take every word every expert writes as being the gospel.....then i dwell on the negative aspects of what i read and depress myself even worse than i already am.....my therapist busted my balls on this a couple of years ago....i had congestive heart failure at 40.....i read that most people die within 5 years after experiencing that.....he brought up the fact that most people that have heart failure are 70-80, so of course that IS TRUE, most people 80 years old die within 5 years of having heart failure..i so appreciated his willingness to bust my chops on this issue because i was in the poor michael mode at the time....guess i'm in that mode most of the time....i tend to over analyze everything.....to look at everything from all angles.....that is why it is so hard for me to accept my memories of abuse, i just keep thinking that they just have to be disturbed fantasies because i loved my uncle so damn much......i wish so much that was true....

i think anybody who does not understand the torment people who amost abuse endure should definitely watch last thursday night's ER.....it was the only thing that has ever broached the subject and to me it seemed to be done in a very caring , compassionate way....

Just want to thank everybody here for there support.....especially andrew, because you opened up wounds that for me needed to be re-opened so that maybe i might be able to face and deal with them......guess time will tell if i'm successful......
Thank everybody for caring......

michael
 
The magic of this forum is that despite our imperfections we are able to help and heal. Our collective intent is sound. Thank you monitors for trusting, for guiding and allowing this thread to continue. The results of the process are self evident. Keep rockin' MichaelB. Peace, Andrew
 
Wow.....

Isn't it a wonderful thing that we CAN get along despite our differences, however big they are.
We all have different experiences, attitudes and are at different times in our recoveries, so we're also bound to disagree. But we all have one thing in common - no more than one.

We all suffered, and we are trying inour own ways to get better.
We all have different ways of doing that, and sometimes a sharp kick up the arse works wonders, and I think Andrews response was just that - no offence intended Andrew - but I know I need one sometimes.

The subject of the thread though is a deep and troubling one, my experience was something I buried deeply for many years, I didn't even reveal it in therapy. This site was the first time I have ever talked about it.

Whether it was teenage experimentation or not is doubtful, to me anyway. Even taking the small age difference into account.
At the time I had over 4 years of intense sexual experience and it was only just over. I was 16, highly sexual, and frightened to death of girls. I could barely talk to girls at that time and wouldn't have a girlfriend or any kind of sex with a girl for a while after.
I think I was in serious danger of continuing the cycle at that point. The other thing that probably stopped me was that I had no gay tendencies, I just didn't see other boys or men as attractive.
The only thing I saw in a sexual context was 'sex' so any person who would have some kind of sex with me was better than masturbation.

Luckily for me a girl came along who was more than willing, although I know now she was as frigid as a plank! but it was enough.

I was a close thing, and I hate the thought of it.

Dave
 
Wow, I'm really gratified to see how we are reconciling, coming together, coming to understandings, learning & growing thru this thread. You guys are all really great. Truly we are survivors!

Victor
 
I only wish i did not still have gay thoughts......because i'm certain they have delayed my recovery and added to my self-hatred.....i'm not saying you should hate yourself if you are gay, but in the world i grew up in, playing sports in high school and college, the thought of being gay was totally diametrically opposed to "everything i should be"....i had quite a few girls offering themselves to me, but i could not partake, even though i would become aroused while making-out....then i had guys offering themselves to me, and although very flattered and excited, i just had such fears and it did not seem right to me either......guess i wished i was just non-existent so nobody would make passes at me.....i always had the fear of killing somebody during of after sex, because i found it so disgusting and i would feel so disgusting after masturbation.....i hated that i had to do that to relieve the sexual tension that would build up inside me, but it kept me from hurting anybody.......my therapist thinks the fear is that i'll remember parts of the abuse if i engage in sex with anybody, and i agree.......

because of my personality disorder, thinking in black and white terms about everything, i could never accept that i'm probably bi-sexual.....that just never seemed acceptable to me, but i guess therapy has worked in that regard, but i really do not think i'll ever have sex with anyone....just afraid of all the painful memories/feelings.....

i know that the sexual identity crisis has intensified my guilt feelings about almost abusing that boy, plus the fantasies i had at 5 years old of being hurcules and forcing my slaves to provide oral sex to me for so long just made me think i must be gay, even though that has never felt "right".......

i guess once you are abused, nothing comes easy to you....there is always going to be lingering doubts/shame/embarrassment /self-hatred/ denial/ fear/ etc.....i guess some guys here have mastered certain aspects of these feelings, but we all are still in a helluva lot of pain...................................................

michael
 
Michael
I could mirror Victors reply, yes, so many of us feel this way and you're right to think that it's linked to what happened to us.

I deal with it in degrees of acceptance - to act out with strange men is an unacceptable degree of behaviour for me now.
But to masturbate to the fantasy isn't. I don't want to do it but I am also realistic enough to know that fantasy is just that - a fantasy.
It's not going to hurt me as long as I use it on MY terms and I have control of it so it doesn't lead to acting out.

So I accept it, and as time goes on that acceptance gets easier - to the extent that I can now just about 90% control my masturbation and the fantasies I use.
But I have to accept that I also need to feed my desires and allow myself to masturbate.

It's a two way deal, I more or less control what I do - and I don't feel guilty about the few times I lose that control.
It's a good deal - a win / win deal even. But I did go through hell to get there.
I fought with huge guilt and shame until it had virtually gone, and without it I just enjoy the action.

And the best thing is I dont do it nearly as often as I did before, I thought that if I removed the guilt and shame I would just masturbate non stop - "Popeye's arm" time again ! - but it didn't happen.
And the fantasies have become more varied and 'normal' ( whatever that might be in a fantasy ? )

Dave
 
victor....what you say about having each other is so very true, but it makes me SO SAD to hear that other guys feel the same way i do...i kind of found solace in thinking that i was the only person in the world who felt/had thoughts like i did, but after meeting so many guys here, i know that not to be true and that makes me want to cry.............

Dave....what you say about masturbation is true....but i allowed it to be a sick crutch not to experiment and have relationships with real people...i isolated myself and protected myself so well until now when it is far too late to ever have a relationship with a real person....sex with a person would be nice i guess, but what i'm really in need of is an intimate relationship with a REAL PERSON....not an imaginary partner....my heart pills pretty much preclude sex from being a big part of any relationship......michael
 
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