victim as perpetrator

victim as perpetrator

michaelb

Registrant
I've read alot of recent postings from all of you and i seem to get a constant stream of hatred towards the perpetrator. I too have anger, but for so long i've forced that anger upon myself...I have not gotten angry at my uncle for doing those things, i guess, because i came so close to abusing a little boy when i was a teenager.... Luckily i had the moral fortitude or the fear of being discovered, because i did not do it.......If i had, i would have killed myself long ago....I have had no desire to be a pedophile since i was a teenager, but do you know how it makes me hate myself for even having thoughts of such horrible acts????? Is there any wonder why i despise myself so much?????? michael
 
The DIFFERENCE is that you didn't. That is HUGE.
Also mitigating the whole thing is your age at the time and your probable state of mind. Give yourself a break Michael. Peace. Andrew
 
Michael
You're one of the good guys.

And the "thought's" you have are left over ones that your abuser left you with, they're not yours - they're his.

Don't beat yourself up about this, you've done NOTHING wrong
Dave
 
Michael.

I'm so with you on this. I feel I'm fairly well down the road to recovery. (Though I still get bad days, quite a few recently). I'm even endeavouring to become a counsellor myself. I have never felt anger towards my perp. I even wrote a poem about it and posted it on the poetry section of this site.

Any anger I did own was always directed towards myself. I became bulimic/anorexic and self harmed by burning/cutting myself. I'm glad to say that anger has now gone, but I'm still not angry with my perp though and ironically I can get angry with myself for not being angry with him. On occassions I wonder if I have trully dealt with my abuse and sumise as to whether this is why I'm not angry with him. I don't know. All I do know is that for most of the time I feel ok and I'm growing stronger everyday.

I feel you don't give yourself enough credit for not abusing that little boy when you were a teenager. You say that you may not have due to the fear of being discovered. I feel you knew to have done so was wrong, so you didn't. In your words you had the moral fortitude.

Give yourself the credit due you.

Mark
 
Michaelb, Andrew, Dave & MarkS have shared a lot of good words with you, and I ditto them.

Our thots, like our actions & words, are shaped by what we see & hear, by how we are treated, especially as children. Sure you have thots like that. The key as Andrew says is what you do with those thots. Sounds to me like you are doing the right things with those thots, just as (like Mark said) you did the right thing in action years ago, and still are.

Take it easy on yourself, and take care of yourself, my friend.

Victor
 
Thank you all for your support....I guess I just wished I totally believed what you are saying..I guess it is kind of amazing I'm actually talking about those dark deep thoughts I had, for so long i told nobody about them...how/who do you tell???? yes, i knew it was wrong, but i think the greater factor was my fear of being caught...

One time this little boy i baby sat came into my room.he was so beautiful, blond hair and blue eyes, he was 3 years old..i had just gotten out of the shower, so all i had on was a towel and i was aroused before he came in....i came so close to making him look at or touch me, but instead i turned away and put on a pair of shorts...I really cared alot about that little boy, he worshiped me and i him.....i fantasized about how good-looking he was going to be when he was 25 or so because he was so beautiful at age 3.....if i am grateful about anything in my life, it is the fact that i did not hurt him the way i was hurt, even though i did not realize the abuse at the time....

I'm pretty sure my abuse started at age 3 and my uncle was close to the age i was when i thought about abusing that little boy....so i guess the irony is pretty strong....

Can anybody really understand how those thoughts have made me feel for almost 30 years???? no, i did not think of them every day, but they were always there with me, making me realize how evil and mentally disturbed i must be....how could i do anything but hate myself to the point of attempting suicide numerous times??????

I look at pedohiles and hate what they do, but in many ways i guess i understand how they do what they do....i know there is no direct proof that abused people abuse, but from the studies i've read over 80% of people that abuse, were abused themselves.....

Mark, what you say is so true for me...i internalized everything.....i still do....i feel anger and hatred towards my mother for not keeping me safe, but it is impossible for me to blame my uncle....it sounds like you are much farther along in your treatment/recovery (if that is really possible)...i guess you were diagnosed with bpd also????? my therapist told me the only way boys/men get bpd is from abuse...do you agree with that assessment????

Thanks again for you guy's support.....

michael
 
Michael
I understand.

Dave
 
Michael, you are too funny. Horny teenage boys
who come out of a shower "already aroused" are likely to be making moves on the family budgy. Remember the old adage, 'a stiff prick has no conscience' ... especially a teenage one. The fact you did nothing, and I mean NOTHING Michael, says absolutely everything. That you fantasized about what he might look like at age 25 says that you had gay fantasies as a teen. So what. Even if you had a passing fantasy about the boy, it means nothing because NOTHING happened. If people were arrested for their fantasies, then the whole world would be incarcerated. One of your Presidents, Jimmy Carter, claimed in an interview that he had raped a 1000 women in his mind. Was he a rapist? Hardly. You were not a perpetrator Michael, not in any sense of the word. And you are not the first teen to have similar fantasies. I had similar fantasies like that and I ended up straight, married and boring.....go figure ;)
Peace. Andrew
 
Michaelb wrote:
)...i guess you were diagnosed with bpd also????? my therapist told me the only way boys/men get bpd is from abuse...do you agree with that assessment????

I assume that "bpd" is bipolar disorder? If so, be careful about making diagnoses and assumptions. A lot of times, diagnoses are for the benefit of the insurance companies and don't mean much except to justify payment to the therapist. (Not that therapists are looking for pathology. We have to give a diagnosis in order to get paid by the insurance company. Otherwise, you pay out of your pocket.)

Bipolar disorder, if that is what you refer to, may be bipolar I or bipolar II. It's the newer version of what used to be called "manic-depression". To my knowledge, it is not caused by abuse but is more likely a chemical imbalance in the brain.

The victim-to-victimizer route is a complex process but I can post something about it if folks are interested.
Ken
 
Michael.

Forgive me my ignorance. Maybe I've missed something in the translation but you say 'I guess you were diagnosed with bpd also ?????' I'm from England and am not sure what 'bpd' stands for.

You also say 'it sounds like you are much farther along in your treatment/recovery (if that is really possible)...'. I'm never sure how to answer that question, sometimes I think (optimistacally) that I have recovered from my abuse, never needing to revisit it. Other times I realise you never 'recover', just learn to live with and accept it as a part of yourself. A self that, hopefully you are happy with. And at other times I feel that I will never recover and that there is no point in trying too. These episodes happen far less often, and are only triggered by events such as those I have experienced recently. Which makes the middle ground the one that sits right for me.

I wish you every success in your recovery and please tell me what 'bpd' stands for and I'll endeavour to answer your question.

Mark
 
ksinger and mark......sorry i abreviated bpd.....it stands for borderline personality disorder, guess i was kind of embarrassed to tell everybody how truly messed up i am......depictions of people with bpd include glen close in fatal attraction and winina ryder in girl interrupted.....

From what i've read, therapist really do not like treating people with the personality disorder because the success rate in treatment is not very good......plus many people can be very temperamental and manipulative.....i am manipulative, but not too temperamental.....

ksinger, what you say about diagnosis is correct.....my old therapist and my new therapist were very hesitant to label me anything, but when i pushed, they agreed with the psychiatrist's diagnosis.....psychiatrists love to diagnose, but they tell you nothing....it was actually a mental health tech who told me what was wrong with me by showing me a videotape....at least then i knew what was going on....i thought i was becoming schizophrenic and could not deal with that.......i was in a study at the university of cincinnati and they too diagnosed me with borderline personality disorder, so, i'm fairly confident about the accuracy of my diagnosis.....even though i'm very unsure of my prognosis.......therapists say they can help, but????????????????????.......there is actually a pretty good book about treatments by marcia lineham (not sure of name spelling).....it discusses cognitive behavioral techniques at being the most successful way of treating people with my condition........I guess that is the techique my therapist is using with me.......I know i read and inerpret WAY TOO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!........i've heard that from my therapits before.... i just feel like the more i know the better i can deal with my circumstances and maybe feel better quicker, if that is possible......

ksinger, i too would be VERY interested in the information you offered....thank you.....

I understand what you say about jimmy carter, but lusting after 1000 women is so different than almost raping a 3-year-old boy......ever since then, i guess i have hated myself.......no, guess it was before then, because by that time i had attempted suicide a couple of times already.......nonetheless, it certainly reinforced my self-hatred........
michael
 
I think Winina is more appropriate lol.
 
Michael, you wrote:

"but lusting after 1000 women is so different than almost raping a 3-year-old boy"

How can you say that what you did is 'almost' raping?? I admire your courage to speak about this, but I'm getting a little concerned Michael.
In your first post you said you came close to abusing a little boy.
In your second post you said: "i came so close to making him look at or touch me"
Now in your third posting you characterize what you did as almost raping a 3 year old boy.
Are you trying to tell us something?
I am worried for you Michael. Perhaps any further details may be better shared by way of PM with
K. Singer. Peace, Andrew
 
Michael.

Thank you for clearing up what you meant by bpd.

Firstly I don't think you have anything to be embarressed about.

I must admit I have no time for psychiatrists. My only personal experience of one, was whilst in hospital, (I was in for surgery for a rare Neuro condition). I had aslo been abused/raped by a male nurse. I obviously withdrew into myself. The said psychiatrist visited, sat on my bed, read one of my books and left. I never saw him again. Since deciding in a career as a counsellor, I have met a few psychaitrists and you are right, they seem VERY eager to diagnose but not to let you know much about the condition that has been diagnosed. As with most medical doctors they seem to want to keep the mysticism that surrounds their proffession. Having had my rant, things do seem to be slowly changing, (over here in England anyway).

Back on to your post. I haven't been diagnosed with bpd, though I have been tempremental in the past, I'm definately still vulnerable and I'm eager to believe people when they praise me. I'm also pretty crap when it comes to relatioships. I suppose I so want to be loved. Though I'm not manipulative.

The one thing I feel it is helpful to remember with a diagnosis is that things don't have to stay the same, be aware that you can change. You say that you are manipulative. If you always think of yourself as manipulative you may not notice that indeed you are not. I hope that makes sense, I'm not always that good at explaining what I mean.

I'm with you on the reading front. I don't think you can have too much knowledge. I truelly believe that is why my progression from quivering wreck to functioning man (with a few problems) was relatively quick.

Happy reading. Mark
 
Per your request, I'm copying part of a speech I did last month at a conference about "Victim to Victimizer". I'm not posting the whole one hour speech but a section that I think addresses some of the issues raised in this post. If something seems missing or out of context, let me know and I'll see if the post needs to be amended.

Here it is:

This is equally true for the victim of sexual abuse. There is little positive about the experience of being abused. While some survivors of sexual abuse have credited the experience for their creativity or talent as a song writer or poet, I suspect few, if any, would choose abuse to enhance their abilities.
As I said before, victims are usually plagued with negative feelings and thoughts. They may take the feelings out on others by becoming a sexual abuser, or a bully, or a rage-aholic. They may take the feelings out on themselves by cutting or other self-injurious behaviors. They may block the feelings with alcohol, drugs, food or sex. Or they may use resources such as support groups, therapy, or other positive interventions to heal and recover from the abuse.

Now, if this concept about sexual abusing as a compensatory behavior is true, how come we dont see as many females as males among our abuser population? Females, research has shown, are two to three times more likely than males to be sexually abused. Logically, we should have twice as many female abusers as males. Of course that is not the case.

SLIDE #4

There are a number of reasons why females either do not abuse as frequently as males or dont get caught or reported. Some of the reasons are biological. Females have less testosterone in their bodies. Testosterone is a hormone that contributes to aggression. A lot, though not all, of sexual abuse is aggressive. Aggressive female abusers are few and far between.
Sexual interest in children may be less likely for females due to their biological make up and social conditioning to be nurturing. Also, if a female is sexually aroused to a child, it may not be as obvious to the child or others as compared with the erection of a male who is turned on by the child.
For whatever the reasons, in general, females tend to turn inward, or act in, when dealing with negative feelings and thoughts. Their compensatory behaviors are more likely to be hurting themselves or numbing out. Men, due to hormones or socialization, tend to act out or numb out their negative feelings or thoughts. Anyway, this is what our conventional wisdom says at this time.

When a male is sexually abused, he is controlled and manipulated by someone who is generally older, stronger, and more knowledgeable than he. Typically, a male will avoid appearing weak, vulnerable, or unable to protect himself, in other words, being a victim. If his abuser is a male, the victim will often struggle with concerns about homosexuality connected with the abuse. For many males, being the victim of sexual abuse is especially difficult to talk about and to get help for. This is beginning to change as more services are available for male victims and society accepts the fact that males can be victims just as females are.
However, for many abused males, acting out their abuse on others is a way of moving from being the victim helpless, weak, and vulnerable to being the one in charge, the one who hurts rather than being the one who is being hurt.
Now, common sense tells us that if something bad and unwanted happens to you, why in the world would you want to do that to somebody else? If youve been sexually abused, how could you put somebody else through that experience?
For some people, it is a matter of little or no empathy. Some folks either cant put themselves in others shoes or they have selective empathy. By that, I mean they can have empathy for certain people but not others. I worked at a state training school for delinquent youth in the 80s. I was seeing a kid there who robbed houses, sold drugs, shook down people for money. Not very nice behaviors. We were talking about selling drugs on the street crack cocaine was a big money maker and I asked him who he would sell to. He had no problem selling crack to mothers on welfare, even those who were pregnant. Hed even take their food stamps for payment. He justified this behavior by saying that if he didnt make the sale, someone else would. What if it were his mother or sister who wanted the drugs? Hed go after the seller and hurt him, he told me. Why? Because this is his family. It didnt matter to him that the woman hed sell to was somebody elses sister or mother. Thats them, and this is mine. His empathy was selective and compartmentalized.
Was his thinking somewhat distorted? I believe so. Sometimes called thinking errors or cognitive distortions (if you want to impress your friends), distorted thinking is how we make it ok to do something we know should not do.

SLIDE #5

Distorted thinking is used by sexual abusers to make it ok in their minds to abuse another person. Distorted thinking is also how we make it ok to do other negative or illegal behaviors in our own lives...... Anybody here go over the speed limit on your drive to this conference? Those of you who took public transportation or car pooled, please bear with me for a moment. So, how many of you went over the posted limit today?
You know it is against the law? You know you could get a speeding ticket and pay a fine? You know you could have your insurance rates go up and if you have enough points, you could lose your license and have to pay a lot of money to get it back? You know that your chances of getting into an accident are increased the faster you drive? And, if you are environmentally concerned, you know you burn more gas the faster you drive.
Well, since you know all this, and you are intelligent people, how did you make it ok to do something that you know is against the law and could have serious consequences?.... You made it ok through distorted thinking.
You may have rationalized the behavior... everybody does it. Im just keeping with the flow of traffic. You might be justifying your speed... Im running late for this important conference. You might be above the rules... Im not going to get caught. The cops are all tied up with that accident back there, and Im speeding in the right hand lane where they wont notice me. And besides, if I get caught, Ill give a good story that will get me out of a ticket.
Does any of this sound familiar?
Sexual abusers use a similar pattern of distortions in their thinking to make it ok to abuse another. They may blame the victim for provoking them to the abuse. They may blame their abuser for causing them to abuse others. They may play poor me for the legal, financial and relationship consequences after they get caught. They may minimize the damage they are causing by only touching, and not penetrating. They may convince themselves that the victim will forget about it, or rationalize that they werent the first person to do something sexual to that child. They may blame the alcohol or drugs for causing the abuse, or claim not to remember because of the alcohol or drugs.

Abusers have lots of excuses and justifications for what they did. Nearly all behaviors are about getting needs met not just for sexual abusers, but for all of us. On a physical level, we have six basic needs that have to be met or else we will die...... We need food, water, air, shelter, sleep, and elimination...... On an emotional level, we also have needs, such as: safety, trust, attention, love, nurturance, intimacy, companionship, hope, excitement, contribution, guidance, respect, power, control and touch. Sex is not one of the emotional or physical needs, although Ive worked with some individuals who sincerely believe they will die if they dont have sex regularly.
I want to address power, control and touch for a moment since these are often beneath sexually abusive behaviors. Touch is a special need because it is a physical act with physical and emotional consequences. Touch is vital for the survival of our species and others. Babies who are not touched and cuddled will often fail to grow, become sick and even die. Most people crave the touch of a hug when it is nurturing and not connected with abusive touch. For most victims of sexual abuse, the nurturing touch has been contaminated and sometimes destroyed by the sexual acts connected to it, particularly when there was a relationship between abuser and victim.
Control is having predictability and order in your environment. It means that when you put the key in the ignition, you can be sure the car will start and you will get from point A to point B without mechanical problems, detours or an accident. For a child, control could mean that sleep will not be interrupted by someone fondling his genitals. Having control in this sense is not about controlling another person.
Power is about controlling another person and is neither inherently good or bad. The power a policeman has to direct traffic around an accident is good power. It can help you, the driver, get back some control from the traffic jam. The power that a babysitter has over the child she abuses is bad or harmful. The power the rapist has holding the knife at the throat of a victim is likewise bad.
These may be obvious examples of how some people get their needs met. The sexual abuser who acts out is getting an emotional need for power met by controlling the victim. Sometimes, the need is not obvious. Remember my corpulent friend, Michael? [THIS REFERS TO A TEENAGE SEXUAL ABUSER I WORKED WITH IN A RESIDENTIAL TREATMENT PROGRAM WHO WAS VERY OVERWEIGHT AND USED FOOD AS A WAY OF ACTING OUT AGAINST HIS PARENTS, HURTING HIMSELF MEDICALLY, AND NUMBING OUT HIS FEELINGS...KS] We may be able to guess what some of his needs might have been by using empathy. Put yourself in his place for a moment.
We can assume that the teasing he endured negatively affected his need for respect as well as his need for companionship, as he had few or no friends. He did not have control of his environment. There was little he could do to make peers like him or accept him.
Food, though usually a physical need for survival, became a drug for him to numb out his pain. It was also a vehicle for him to act in against himself. Physically hurting himself by self-mutilation was not a viable option for him. And, as noted, the act of eating in defiance of his grandmother was a way Michael could act out and get back at others. And, even though his eating was out of control, he was in control of this process, destructive as it was for him.
With this triple play, youd figure that Michael wouldnt need to do more. However, he was sexually abusing his younger brother during this time..... How did this behavior help him get his needs met? Foremost, Michael had power over his brother. His brother was smaller, weaker, less knowledgeable about sexual matters, and more accessible to him than other children he could have victimized.
Michael, himself, had been sexually abused by an older cousin a few years earlier and had never disclosed his abuse nor gotten help. He was prematurely sexualized. That is to say, he experienced powerful sexual feelings that he did not understand at the time. There were some elements of pleasure, embarrassment, guilt, shame, and anger all shrouded by confusion.
Because he experienced arousal at the hands of another male, Michael was not sure if he was gay or straight. He used distorted thinking to blame his brother as the one who was gay. Because his brother had an erection when Michael fondled him, Michael was able, on the surface, to minimize his own confusion about sexual orientation.
In this case, Michael could obtain sexual gratification through the sexual abuse. He was able to achieve orgasm, either through the sexual abuse directly, or afterwards, by masturbating to the thoughts and fantasies of what he had done to his brother. He also got other emotional needs met through this behavior.
He reinforced the emotional needs with the pleasurable physical sensations that sexual behaviors produce. What started out with a single sexual act with his brother soon became a pattern or cycle of behaviors. Behaviors that are pleasurable have a tendency to reinforce themselves. ... If it feels good, we want to do it more. Activities connected to these pleasurable feelings get reinforced.
If having an orgasm felt like getting an electric shock, it might have a significant impact on population growth. Negative feelings connected to behaviors tend to diminish the behavior. Some sexual abusers will never abuse again due to the negative consequences for their behavior. Its the theory behind Scared Straight. In this line of work, we can refer to it as Scared Limp. Unfortunately, we dont usually know for sure which sexual abusers will never do it again, ...though most believe they never will.

Ken
 
ANDREW......LET ME MAKE ONE THING PERFECTLY CLEAR......I DID NOT TOUCH OR ABUSE THAT LITTLE BOY IN ANYWAY and to be honest i really resent your implications......do you think i could live with myself knowing the damage the abuse has done to me?????? In fact, i just discussed this very subject with my therapist less than an hour ago partly because of what i've been talking about here and also what i saw on the tv show ER last night....there was a psychiatric patient that was so-tempted to abuse the 10-year-old son of his girlfriend.....it even showed him following another small boy into the bathroom, fortunately nothing happened....the point of this guy on the show was to demonstrate how mentally tortured he felt because of his thoughts and disgusting desires.......maybe it was just me, because in many ways he portrayed the angst i felt and still feel regarding how close i came to harming a child....i know i felt empathy for the character and i think most of the audience might have felt the same way.....i cried for over an hour after seeing the episode until i fell asleep.....this was the only show i've ever seen that investigated this problem from the viewpoint of the POTENTIAL abuser.....this guy had come to the hospital to get help because he did not want to abuse the boy and did not know where else to turn, feelings i have had for so very long........finally he admits to the psychiatrist that the boy is in peril from him, unless he gets help....then the psychiatrist is required by law to admit him for help......i'd really recommend this show for anybody who has struggled with those thoughts before....it was done in a very compassionate and thought provoking manner.......i wish i would have seen it 30 years ago, maybe i would have had some idea of where to turn for help and some peace of mind instead of letting this thing fester like a boil in my brain............I was so afraid then that i was a sick pedophile that would prey upon children, how could i think or believe any differently?????? and NO andrew, i do not have any fantasies or desires to have sex with children.... in fact i have had sex with nobody ever with the exception, i guess, of my uncle........i hope that puts your mind to rest.?????????????............................

Andrew, from your response, i'm guessing you did not struggle with this yourself....I'M so happy for you......because holding those thoughts inside myself for 30 years has been gut wrenching, at the very least.......i guess it is difficult for anyone who did not endure the self-hatred that formed then and still exists now to really understand the self-inflicted emotional pain.....in fact i told my therapist today that i would have much rather been dead than to have those thoughts back then or to be talking to her about them today.........I understand how hard it is for you to understand, because i do not understand how/why i had those thoughts/feelings...........

ksinger.....thank you for sending me exerpts from your speech....i'm copying to read in full later today....I'm very emotionally drained right now.......

michael
 
Andrew....i just read your posting again because it has upset me a great deal....you follow my progression of posting to thoughts of abusing the boy to thoughts of making him touch or watch me to almost raping him......i consider ANY FORM OF SEXUAL CHILD ABUSE TO BE A FORM OF RAPE........that is what i was hoping to convey in my postings......in fact my therapist pointed that issue out to me in my session today that in no way was the ideas/thoughts about abusing billy any form of rape or nothing close to being rape.....i guess the recent dreams of myself being raped when i was 8-10 may have clouded my recent postings in a way......hope this clears things up in everybody's minds.......michael
 
mark.....thank you for your response....guess i think borderline personality disorder is a reason to be embarrassed.....partially because there is no proven effective "cure" for it......i belong to a borderline support group on the net, one of the new people asked about possible support groupswith other living/breathing people and another member advised her that there are none because people with bpd are usually filled with such shame/guilt/embarrasment that they would not attend a group meeting, because they think it would be too painful, i guess......

Having been in several different psychiatric wards over the last two years from suicide attempts, let me advise you of how fortunate you are.....it is definitely not a fun place to be, but it has been a safe place to diminish my suicidal ideations, i guess, since i am still here.......the self-inflicting cutting you described is an indication of bpd as is the suicide ideations.....from what i understand, if you do not have thoughts of suicide, you probably would not be considered to have bpd, unless it is a very mild case????? not sure.....the testing done on me at the university of cincinnati was very intense.....i was there for a week of intensive interviews and psychological teating......their conclusion was the same as my psychiatrist and therapist.....

i think the idea of change is probably why therapists and psychiatrists are hesitant to tell people about their diagnosis......so you are probably right in your assessment......see, that psychology degree is paying off----i'm joking.......

Thank you for being here....take care.......michael
 
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