Too much honesty with person you love?

Too much honesty with person you love?
I appreciate that at least, sinse it's about all there is left for me these days, just a place to deposit my vitriol and not a lot else, heck you seem to be the only person on the site that actually
 
Hey Dark Empathy,

I'm not sure that your last post was complete, but I'll take a stab at what I think you were attempting to communicate.

You are welcome for my hearing you. If I'm the only person here capable of doing that, then, well, at least there is one. I wish there were more for you. It is difficult to watch someone struggle so deeply while feeling helpless to support positive change. It reminds me of my own pain and the helplessness I endured in my very early youth. I hope my effort to embrace my own suffering without throwing it on you helped you in some way.

Sincerely,

"GAATT"
 
Hi.
it only missed a couple of words,I've just noticed that as opposed to when I started on ms and had lots of replies, nobody bothers anymore.
Well I suppose that's because nobody likes to hear a person who's tried all the usual self isteme/learn to love yourself/talk to your inner child/only you can change your life/everyone has some sort of traumer/you deserve better answers that everyone at ms is so fond of and they've ended up doing no good whatsoever.

I'm not arrogant enough to assume that such things are no good for everyone, but I'm a little sick of just getting the same over and over again, one reason I don't tend to post on this site half as much as I used to.

People don't seem to appreciate the idea that you know, sometimes the world! is what is wrong and you can't change that all you can do is spit in the wind and wait.

So I will say I very much appreciate that at least someone is bothering to listen, particularly sinse these aren't things I tend to say to other people, and it's really difficult being so sodding frustrated and knowing things need to change but having no idea how, and even if I think things can or am forced to believe things can as happened when I realized what I felt for L, well reality slaps me in the face again!
 
I think there are probably more people listening than you realize, maybe some who dont know what to say and don't want to sound condescending or trite with a "I've been there" or something. Or maybe they are in the same boat and it just hurts too much to talk about.
And for what its worth, I agree that the world is very often a mean and unfair place.

Benny
 
Hey Dark Empathy,

I'm glad that you appreciate my listening and that it is doing you some good.

dark empathy said:
sometimes the world is what is wrong and you can't change that...knowing things need to change but having no idea how,
I hear you on that piece too. It's a difficult place to be in.

I've run into very similar walls here where I live. This year I've had a couple of significant breakthroughs. When I was really ill in February, a friend of mine was generous enough to take me in as I went through a dying process of sorts. I had let go of my efforts to heal myself as, like you, nothing I was doing seemed to be working. More recently I've had the fortune to stumble into a men's group that is dominated by people from a completely different culture (First Nations). As I've been noticing the cultural differences and trying to find out why the European origin culture in my own local community has failed me so profoundly, I'm starting to see where these differences lie. Our western culture is profoundly outer directed. It is rooted in adversarial and divisive relations both inwardly and outwardly. It worships winning (might makes right!) rather than harmony and balance. It takes life much too seriously. The essential culture of these First Nation people is fundamentally the opposite of this. They too have suffered immensely by being immersed in and dominated by such a toxic culture for the last 200 years. They are in the process of recovering from it and so am I.

I'm sharing this to give you a glimpse my process and of a small pocket of community that is working in a healthy direction for me. I hope you come across something similar for yourself sometime soon. In the meantime, I hope this small connection here with me is helpful to you and perhaps it will grow (looks like Bey, for one, is joining us).

Sincerely,

GAATT
 
Hi Dark Empathy,

I just wanted to add a quick note here to say thanks for pursuing this conversation with me. I've received some important gifts of which I'd like to make you aware.

1. You know that I now know what "genophobia" means. :-)

2. I've faced my fear of men's anger. That's a big piece for me. I fear my own anger and I definitely feared my father's in my youth. He was pretty intense and liberal with his anger. He was the only one allowed to express it in my birth family. I only expressed it once (perhaps twice) that I remember from my birth until I was 23 years old.

3. I've also seen that I'm capable of experiencing my pain without doing anything about it and seeing that that can have a positive effect on another person. That's another deep and important lesson for me.

Thanks for your help with this. I thought you might want to know.

Sincerely,

"GAATT"
 
@Bay, That people are listening does help. There's nothing quite as depressing as screaming into an empty room. I have heard some sillier people mention that "female support" is more about listening and emotional support, and "male support" is trying to do something about something. Again, I don't like this biased sexist crap, but ironiccally the sort of thing I do myself for others and the sort of thing I often look for in others is the first rather than the second, (then again as I said I don't really think of myself as male anyway, or at least not in any significant sense).

@Gart, I am glad you've got something out of this as well, although as I said the anger here isn't directed at you or at anybody. One thing I've realized about myself is that however dam frustrated i am i just don't have it in me to will harm to another person, even though I've had to ask myself some very dark questions on occasion. The anger I feel is at my own sitaution and the fucking world that puts me in it, and actually it's quite a useful way of going against self disgust to project onto the collective.

My councillor actually said much as you did, that he hoped I'd find the opportunity to have the sort of connection I want with someone else, but he had no answers. I cannot hope for this, because hope hurts too much and has disappointed me too often, and there's a point when you really have to stop. right now I just exist, and that's about all you can say really.

i read and I write and I sing, and I wait, and hell I could be still waiting in fourty, or fifty or sixty years, but hay if I am that just proves how much of a shitty useless planet we live on where the haves go on having and the have nots don't.
 
Hi Dark Empathy,

dark empathy said:
@Gart, as I said the anger here isn't directed at you or at anybody. One thing I've realized about myself is that however dam frustrated i am i just don't have it in me to will harm to another person.
Yes, I remember you stating that earlier. It's good for me to hear and know as I work my way out of denying my own anger and fear and slowly finding ways to feel and transform them. Thanks for your help with this.

dark empathy said:
My councillor actually said much as you did, that he hoped I'd find the opportunity to have the sort of connection I want with someone else, but he had no answers.
I guess, like me, he wishes well for you and like me, he has run out of leads for you. All that's left for us is to offer a prayer to the whole for your well being, and let it go. Life is mysterious to me, and perhaps a prayer helps and then again, maybe not. One thing is sure, there is only so much any of us can do on our own.

Thanks again for writing. Please keep me posted on future developments.

Sincerely,

"GAATT"
 
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So, I am new here (less than 1 month). I relate to the anger. As a kid, during my abuse, if I got angry I totally lost control. I ending up breaking almost all my cool toys, radios, etc. because it was the only safe way for me to rage. As I got older I built a wall of anger around me and blamed my mom, than my dad, then the whole world for making me so angry like this. I hated feeling angry I hated being angry and I hated not having a way to be angry. As I got older my wall became armor and I stopped letting people 'in' I wouldn't let them care about me or love me and I became hyper-vigilant and a control freak (my words). It was not until after my mom's suicide that I started looking for help. I met a man in a 12 step (ACOA) meeting that had known my mom. He showed me that unconditional love does exist in this world. It took him 2 1/2 years of being there before I let him hug me, and let myself be hugged. So, yeah Dark Empathy, I get it. For me the anger isn't a head issue, I can't rationalize, meditate or positive think my may out of it. It is a heart issue for me and my only option is to actively let love in (past my armor) otherwise my heart stays filled with anger, and I go back to blaming others (like I did when I was a kid and no way to cope). Hope that helps.
 
@Gart, the problem is however much you say "can't do it alone" that is what I am stuck with. When you've got a disability the plane and honest truth is you are alone sinse most people believe you don't exist. Things are improving for people in wheelchairs but not with visual imparements.
Even group activities take five times more effort, I used to go to the bar while I still lived in colidge and wait for an hour to see if I spoke to anyone, I rarely did, most friends I made were from people who were forced to interact with me because we were sharing lectures or societies or what not, but of course now everyone has moved off and got their nice little spouses and kidsies and gone elsewhere while for me it's all over, and any activity I try just feels the same, people come, I end up as people's brother confessor, people go. This is why i'm so desperate for an intimate relationship with someone! sinse hay I could cope with the loneliness if I could just guarantee to have someone for a day, an hour, a week.

Oh, but I don't get that, I'm a nice person. This is why I am angry, the world! is what does this to me, I wouldn't have this problem if I didn't have arsed up eyeballs, or I was female, or I hadn't been abused. I might have other issues but not these.

@EQCR, I spent a lot of time angry at the abuse, but for me it was just too much to get angry at those involved. The abuse was so much wrapped up with the environment at school there just wasn't one person to be angry at, hay there wasn't one person involved in the abuse who I could single out! (I don't think any of the abuse sessions involved just one person, they were always three or more and always extremely public).

As I said, it's not a question of "not letting people in" or "Being receptive to others" or anything I! can do, unless I could magically convince people to start treating me like a human being, and I've learnt all those tricks already. I'm a practiced conversationalist, I know how to use empathy to my advantage, how to be humourus without crudity, how to get everyone over the "whaaaa! weerd blind person" (at least when someone danes to speak to me). It's something I've got good at and likely why I am "Such a nice person"

The problem is it takes so much more work than for everyone else, and it never has a consequence! my so called friends fuck off up the country to breed with their families and I'm always left behind on my own. The group finishes, the activity finishes and people just drift off, you know because they have more important places to go. I'm so fucking sick of this pattern that I can't even barely muster the energy to try another group, not to go through all the ignoring and fears I'll make myself look foolish and waiting for someone to dare to take the time to believe I exist, usually to just wind up being everyone's brother confessor again.

I don't see what else I can do to "let people in", and with all the actual relationship crap, well it always seems based on magic fucking sygnals I can't read, (why the hell can't someone just say they liked me or wanted to be closer, ---- oh yes I'm male that is why!).
 
Hi Dark Empathy,

dark empathy said:
however much you say "can't do it alone" that is what I am stuck with.
I hear you and I hear how tough it is. I'm here and it looks like a couple of other guys are too. It's not much, perhaps, and it's something. There doesn't seem to be much we can do to directly influence in a positive way your situation where you live.

When I say "I can't do it alone", it's coming from my own learnings about the nature of my life situation. As much as I'd like to control the world to my advantage, there is only so much I can do. When I'm in my sanest mental space, I do what I can and then let the rest of existence decide the final outcome. Fate isn't always to my liking, but it is what it is and if I'm to come to peace with it, I'm going to have to find a way to embrace it. Usually, I attempt to learn from it once I've gotten over my resistance to it.

I hope this helps and if not, then I hope that my willingness to listen is still helpful in some way.

Sincerely,

"GAATT"
 
@GArt, I find these days the only way I can really get on is by simply taking. The other day I joined a six hundred person choire to sing duel of the fates from phantom menice (and Zadok the priest). I usually hate choires, hate feeling like I'm just another brick in the wall (to use the expression from pink floyde), and that my contribution adds nothing, that if there are ten or twenty or a hundred other tenors singing the same line I am, what I do has no consequence. However, this occasion I went purely for myself, I also hiered a full Jedi outfit with light saber and didn't give a crap about people's comments, ---- indeed the most common comment I got from people was "I wish I'd done that"

No, I connected with no one, I spent time with no one accept my brother and my mum who happened to be there anyway, the brief comments I got from people at my costume were usually made to others not to me, and for the one or two people who did dain to speak to me I used all the usual conversational tricks, used my empathy, but expected nothing in return.

That seems to be the only way to cope, take and expect nothing. If this makes me a selfish bastard, well tough luck, give me another person to care about who cares about me and I'll show you how selfless I can be, however as it stands if humanity give me nothing, I'll give nothing in return.

This will probably work until my stupidly empathic side steps in again and makes me start expecting more from people than anyone is ever willing to give, friendship or intimacy or all those other things that I don't get and others do, but hay what else is there?

Indeed I do have to say there is a certain nasty satisfaction in taking, whenever I download an audiobook without paying, if i consider my own disability bennifits that free me from having to spend most time and energy doing something pointless for bare survival (which is about the one good thing about having a disability). Hell, the collective can afford it, and if you want me to contribute to the collective let it do some good for me first. Hell, it wasn't as if it was my! decision to go to that school anyway, it was just because nottinghamshire county council had the bright idea of sticking the one unit for visually impared kids in the worst school in the county that was due with closure otherwise (one reason there was such a huge cover up), I could probably sue for thousands if I was so inclined, (although the one occasion I looked into doing this a lawyer told me streight out I'd been too successful to claime anything back, which is a joke). Then again what would I do with thousands of pounds anyway, it's not like any of the things I really want can be bought, and other than books and the odd dvd I really don't have many material desires at all.

It's not even just in my abuse that the collective causes huge amounts of fun, or in how most people pretend I don't exist. My eyesight shouldn't be as bad as it is, however guess who was the first premature baby to have artificial lenses attempted? That's right! and guess who at the age of 7 was the first person for a pressure relief eye operation to go severely wrong and cause a massive hemmerage, Losing most of my remaining vision in the process?that's right! I even have the dubius honour of being the default case study in opthalmology journals on how bad pressure relief operations can go!

Again, I could probably jump on the "if there's blaime there's a claime" band wagon, but what would be the point?

Oh, and just to compound it, guess who works 7 years on adoctoral thesis, whilst! doing recovery only to have it failed at the last moment, (after a successful Viva?), my tutor said in all his career he's never known it happen, but of course it had to be me!

I know it's a cliche to say "why me!" and heck I probably could live with all of this if I just had an intimate connection with someone! but I don't even get that, so I'll take everything else and just say "fuck humanity!" once again, sinse hell humanity deserves it, and right now my chances of actual intimacy with anyone seem about as likely as my chances of really becoming a jedi and power to just influence people's thoughts and emotions with my own mind and no effort.
 
Hi Dark Empathy,

dark empathy said:
I went purely for myself,
Many kudos to you for looking after yourself and having the courage to be yourself! I was impressed at your willingness to dress as a Jedi Knight. I'm not sure I'd have the courage. Congratulations!

You sure have a history of hard knocks and unfortunate twists of fate. It's remarkable to me that it hasn't totally destroyed you. It says something about your will to live and thrive in spite of it all. You ARE a survivor. Wow.

Sincerely,

GAATT.
 
Hmmm Gaatt, sometimes I'm not even sure what that means, or how what I do now is different to "being destroyed" I take care of myself simply because I don't have a choice, indeed one thing that frustrates me is that I feel I could! be supportive and caring and take care of someone else and even want to, which is probably why on the few occasions I've been accepted by others I always end up in the care taker emotional support roll but I just have nobody to be selfless at.

One of the things I've wanted for a relationship is two way support, give and take. I read all these posts in family and friends of "Oh my boyfriend/husband is an utter bastard and is cheating on me and is looking at porn but I love him!" and I think "so what's so fucking wrong with me!" I can't imagine doing any of those things, heck due to genophobia cheating or using porn is literally untyhinkable, but who is the one that ends up with someone?

Part of me wants to post a long abusive rant in F&F saying "Oh stop your belly aching you winy cow! what is your husband's fucking problem he's got you! and you can always just dump him for someone nicer sinse your a fucking woman and get the choice"

Oh but as L told me again by e-mail recently I'm a nice person, apparently.
Just not fucking nice enough for anyone to actually want to be close to apparently!
 
Hi Dark Empathy,

Thanks for writing. I enjoyed your post very much.

dark empathy said:
I take care of myself simply because I don't have a choice,
I think that you do have a choice. We all do. You could find a way to destroy your body. There are lots of ways to do that, and yet you haven't. It says something about your will to live. There is something motivating you to stick around and you are honouring that motive. I'm not sure what it is, but I am glad (for purely selfish reasons :-) ) that you are honouring it. I enjoy our conversations and look forward to hearing from you.

dark empathy said:
"Oh stop your belly aching you winy cow!
I chuckled at this one. I too have felt that way towards many women who don't seem to see the value of what I think I could offer them. It hurts. I know. I'm slowly seeing that women are just as screwed up as I was and don't even recognize it. They have to work on their own healing. I've got to work on not being hurt by their stupidity. I also see that there are aspects of myself of which I'm not 100% confident. I still carry some shame. I'm making progress in that department. I offered a youngish woman with whom I've shared a very casual connection for over a year now, to join me for tea. When she didn't respond to my invitation immediately, I asked her if she got it. She did. She says she's busy. That was over a month ago. I just carry on and let her go. She doesn't seem to have the courage to face a friend (and partner in healing (this was a very clear element to our casual conversations while I was paying for my groceries at her store (She's a cashier))) who could spend some time supporting her well-being and healing. It's her problem not mine and I continue to work on healing my attitude towards those parts of myself of which I am still ashamed. Putting out the invitation to her actually helped in this department. I've often felt ashamed of feeling attracted to women who are younger than I. There is something about women in their mid to late twenties that usually disappears by the time they hit 30. There is sometimes an openness to feeling and fewer battle scars. It can attract me quite powerfully at times.

Sincerely,

GAATT.
 
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@Gaat, It's just the posts in F&F that bother me. So, some guy is behaving like a total douchenozzle (my favourite new insult), and yet some woman not only insists on loving him, but comes on a surviver website seaking ways to heal and help him. I've had fantasies in which some girlfriend of mine posts in F&F saying as much about me. It's almost tempted me into the direction of misoginistic attitudes, or even convinced me to hier a prostitute sinse I found myself reasoning that if a woman can logically acquire a relationship whenever she wants, any woman who remains in an abusive relationship or works as a prostitute must do so because she desires to, even if such a desire is necessarily a product of an unresolved issue. Accept that unfortunately both my empathy and the fact that probably %70 of the friends I've ever made have been female directs me away from that style of logic, not to mention my own suspicion that no encounter with a prostitute could work out for the best, sinse the idea of physical without emotional is just something I find disgusting!

Still I can't deny it makes me feel ridiculously inadequate that some guy who is abusive or sneaky or unpleasant or acts in other ways that are just beyond thinkable for me is worth so much more in relationship terms than I am, that someone wants! to be intimate with that sort of guy but not with me.

Of course, I'm well aware I'm far from perfect, I have plenty of faults which I understand, indeed a tendency to castigate myself for those faults is one of them, however deliberately causing harm is just not something I could do to someone, which is again something that tempts me away from myssoginistic logic for all that the part of myself I think of as Shadow might feel sometimes.

I'm not sure on the thing on women, what I've always fallen in love with has been a form of interaction I've had with a friend more than anything else. It's not even that I fall for the wrong people or people who need healing or people who are screwed up, the people I'm attracted to have all unquestioningly been the right! people for me, people I have a distinct connection with, who are independent and even if they have issues they know who and what they are, they just don't feel the same way. I've had friends who were different, friends with problems, but I just don't feel that level of attraction. It's not all just about mutual support either, there is a lot of positive stuff I want to share with someone just to have someone to share it with, indeed just like I did with friends when an undergraduate.
Today I had a woman from a cleaning service turn up and clean my flat, she commented that we were about to have a thunderstorm, and I said "oh good! I love a good thunderstorm" very enthusiastically, she was then highly confused, when i explained I enjoyed watching them her response was "---- mmmmm, right" in clearly a "humouring the weerd man sense. Yet, I'd love to explain to someone how much I do! enjoy thunderstorms, indeed I spent half an hour with my head out the window just smelig the air cleared by rain, listening to the cracks of thunder roll across the sky and hear the lightning. why! can't i have anyone to share that with?
When i was doing my degree I had friends who I did share such things with, ---- but not anymore it seems.

The problem is the entire unseen subtext, dating and phone numbers and invitations thing just is so alien to me, I really can't play any of the games even of basic attraction, I just want someone to say "I like you" or "could we be more than friends", hat is all, really not much?

Last November I met a girl I'll call J on the train who was in her twenties (I'm 32 myself, not that it really matterrs sinse as L proves attraction isn't particularly age based. she initially turned up to talk to my dog and we spent the journey together. I did something that was very! out of my comfort zone, on the basis that my councillor had told me that dispite my own paranoyed fear of looking like a creepy stalker and several nightmares where I'm! accused of abusing someone, I asked for her phone number, indeed I was so appologetic about it I think she probably wondered what I was about.
We swapped numbers and she said she'd ring me, then to my utter surprise she did the next day. We had a great chat for two hours, which only fell off when she happened to casually mention she needed to go because she was on a date with someone! I don't know why, but that was that.
Was I madly in love with this girl? no, I barely new her, we'd hardly spent three hours together, however she made it pretty clear she was not the least interested in me in a romantic sense, and while we might have been friends things just seemed to peter out. We exchanged another phone call a week later, and then never spoke again. I phoned her a couple of times but she was out, and she never phoned me.

Similarly At one point a few years ago, a girl called C from my light opera society offered to do me some work assisting with reading and research. My parents were convinced she was attracted to me, sinse they saw her on several occasions, but I just didn't get this. we spent a while together and got on, indeed my parents surmised she was quite lonely in her own way sins she'd just broken up with her boyfriend at the time. again I was not madly in love with C, she was a friend, but if she'd offered to become closer, if she'd said she liked me I'd have considdered it, I just find it takes a great deal for me to even admit to being attracted to someone. Unfortunately, she never said or did anything that indicated she wanted more than friendship, and finished by going off to Australia. I contacted her again last year sinse I heard she was back and we had a conversation, I even got more forward than I usually do and admited I'd missed her, ---- however again she's disappeared off the map entirely and didnt' bother contacting me back, so so much for my parents' suspicions. The sad thing is C, really is someone who personality wise could've worked, but if she was the least bit interested as my parents thought did she give a hoot? Did she say anything? hell no! and that is how it usually goes, unless as happened with L I'm stupid enough to actually fall in love which has only happened this badly five or six times, always with the right! people, always with people I already know well, but never any way that works.

Back when I was 18, a girl called Emma, the first of the people I fell truly in love with and actually the person who made me realize it was possible to feel something more than friendship for another person, had me admit on the last day of term how I felt. I knew she had a boyfriend and didn't feel the same way, but I had to say something, she gave me a kiss on the cheak and when I told her she was the first person to ever do that she replied "I won't be the last" she genuinely believed that I'd find someone and made me believe it as well and that is the one of the five or six occasions I've felt this way that I came out of it actually feeling any sort of hope at all.

Part of me wants to track her down (probably married now with kids), and say look! look how wrong you were! Look how you tried to make me hope for something and just made me fall harder!
And yet part of me realizes how deeply unfare that would be sinse she did probably exactly what I would've done if our circumstances were reversed.

It really is no wonder I'd so much rather be female, at least in a social sense, indeed if I was vaguely at all attracted to men I'd probably go and have myself surgically altered just on the basis that the female position in relationships would suit me so much better and be so much easier for me, ---- hell genophobia is no problem if your a woman!

As to my body, and not being destroyed, well it depends upon what you mean. I'm not exactly fit, I'm around average, though I have exercised in the past. I unfortunately have a tendency if I have nothing in my cupboard and am not up to going shopping and facing all the social shenanigans and being ignored to order take away, however I limit the amount I do this to stop things from going too far. As for alcohol or drugs, well actually the worse I feel the less! I want to indulge in anything that will mess with my inhibitions, indeed if I decide to drink a glass of someething it is usually because I feel in a good mood and think i can take the loss of control in return for tasting a decent wisky or a good cocktail.
That is still more true on the occasions when one friend of mine has treated me to spiced coffee (aka coffee laced with cream or butter infused with cannabis, I'd never smoke the stuff sinse i like singing too much and the smell of cigarette smoke is a huuuuuge trigger for me, but in coffee it works), yet I wouldn't risk being stoned when I don't feel up to it either, sinse the loss of control (not to mention the come down), would make it worse over all.

I will say I do far more enjoy the pure sensation of being stoned than drunk, but it's not something I'd want to do too often and it's something I can live without.

My addictions are few, I have a miner chemical attraction to coco, but coco very specifically, so I tend to use high content coco chocolate as a self medicating anti depressant, but this is actually not bad for you at all. What my worst addiction is is isolation, sinse I do tend to find that social contact is so dam hard, being ignored, waiting for someone to speak to me, that there are times it's just far easier being alone. This is again another reason I'd like to have someone, just someone who I could rely on being there, sinse it would stop me from too easily falling into the pattern of behaving like robinson cruso, hell before I had my dog Reever there were points I'd literally not leave my flat for four or five days at a stretch, though now at least Reever does insure I do need to take a walk a day.

Reever does make things much easier, and stop me feeling quite as alone and I'm definitely about as close to her as it's possible to be to a dog, ---- particularly sinse she is literally responsable for my life being a guide dog so we spend 24 hours together, however obviously the amount of intimacy you can have with a dog is limited for all there are occasions I've found myself wishing that she was human sinse certainly she's the only girl who has ever wanted to spend hours curled up with me on my settee.

heck even with Reever things weren't easy sinse when i first got her in 2011 she was absolutely not! interested in being anywhere near me and just wanted to be with her trainer, and there is nothing that can make you feel more rejected than when you try to stroke a dog who walks off and lies by the door just wanting to go back to someone else.
 
Hi Dark Empathy,

I hear you and I hear that it is difficult. I don't have any ready made answers and I can't really give any clues as to how to be close to a woman. That department isn't working well for me either. I choose to ignore it and move on to other things to keep me moving in a healthy direction and to continue to deepen my healing process.

One thing that intrigued me in your post is that there seems to be a split between a more casual feeling connection and one that has more depth to it and could be called a "Relationship" with all the emotional baggage that can get stirred up as a result. I know very few people who have what I would call a healthy connection to a person to whom they are attracted sexually. There is so much turmoil at that level in our culture and few efforts to heal it.

I've noticed a pattern in male-female relationships that seems to play out quite a bit. When things go the culturally sanctioned way, the man finds a woman he's attracted to sexually and pursues her with that basic drive. He'll do all kinds of stuff to get laid. Once that happens, the table turns and he starts to lose interest. She'll become a nag and will start to make efforts to "fix" him because clearly something is wrong with him (in her mind). In her mind, relationship stability is more important for a number of reasons and she will often work hard to turn things around.

What is often ignored is that the basic dynamic is rooted in unconscious cues driven by sex energy that stir up unresolved childhood trauma. So the woman is looking for a protector and provider so that she can live her early childhood dream of being loved by Daddy. A real man can never live up to that childhood dream. The man thinks that physical intimacy will get him the love and nurturing that wasn't ideal in his early childhood connection with his mother. No woman can satisfy that either. Projecting this crap on each other and relating in ways that reinforce the pattern, they end up just making their lives miserable, eventually breaking up perhaps or simply tolerating it and getting distracted by making babies and building houses (which will traumatize their kids according to Alice Miller (She has written a great deal on childhood abuse)).

People who see this dynamic and make efforts to heal it within themselves are rare in my experience. All I can do is work on healing it within myself and let go of the dream that relationship is my life goal. It isn't. I'd rather find a way to be comfortable within myself, playful in my relations to other people and less serious about this whole "Relationship" dream. I may end up being very intimate with a woman some day, or I may not. I really don't know, but I won't let it stop me pursuing my passion for Consciousness, Love, Healing, Peace, Playfulness and Joy within myself.

I hope these reflections are helpful you.

Sincerely yours,

GAATT
 
Oh God Gaat, I can't even answer at the moment. I've just spent five solid hours on the phone to L who phoned me, and we just completely got engrosed with each other, swapping thoughts, stories, everything! we went on so long sinse neither of us wanted to hang up, though we both admitted it was getitng late, indeed we took ten minutes of appologising! I started a sentence with "I love ----" then finished with "I love talking to you"

I don't want to feel this anymore! I don't want to hgurt like this!

I also respect your theoriest, but really I can't have anything like sympathy with all this freudian nonsense! I don't want a woman to just get laid with, that idea disgusits! me! I just want a connection with someone, something that's emotional and physical, something that is like friendship but goes further. Really if I just wanted to bang someone I'd hier a prostitute and have done with it, and hell (I don't think woman want protectors or rproviders or any other evolutionary rubbish either, most of my female friends just want what I do, just not with me! is it so much to fucking ask? obviously it is.
Why the hell! does this fucking hurt so much! I don't want to keep feeling this, to keep needing this, to keep wanting this connection with someone and keep finding something that is close but not.

I have seen successful relationships, Ive seen the communciation I want and whatever some freudian feminist says it's not all just about getting layed either, is something people have together, a communication that goes beyond what you feel for a friend. I've seen it, when two people casually talk holding hands, and hell if you spend five hours on the phone to someone neither of you able to hang up because you both just want to stay talking to the other person isn't that something? ---- accept L doesn't want to be close to me, nobody does sinse I'm fucking diseased! Fuck humanity and their fucking little games! how the hell do I work on myself when I fucking hurt so much, when the closest anyone has ever wanted to be to me was while insulting me, when the only other human to touch me intimately left nail marks, when I've had my own sperm shoved in my face or a used tampon stuck in my mouth but nobody has ever fucking wanted to even kiss me or hold hands or just sit and cuddle and talk!

I can't! stand! feeling! like! this! anymore! If I could remove this need, this ache, this pain, I wouldk, if I c0ould just hier a prostitue and relieve myself on someone's unthinking body with no emotions I'd do that too, but neither works, I'm just fucking sutdk and there is no fucking answer! god! I hate! this fucking crap! how come so many other peope fucking getitng conncetionct just becfause their fucking lucky not to be me! the bastards! I want the ho0le world to fuckingm end I want every fucking person on this planet to feel like I do ssince what fucking right do they ahve to be happy1 to not feelin k like this!

Stop! make it fucking stop'1~
 
Hi Dark Empathy,

dark empathy said:
Why the hell! does this fucking hurt so much!
It hurts because you aren't being fully honest with yourself or L.

dark empathy said:
... then finished with "I love talking to you".
I don't believe this. You contradict yourself very quickly:

dark empathy said:
I just want a connection with someone, something that's emotional and physical, something that is like friendship but goes further.
Even this is a partial statement. You don't want a connection with someone. You want it with a woman.
So why waste your time with L? Where's your anger at her for teasing you with heart talk and failing to provide what you haven't even asked her for but for which you say you are longing?

Sometimes when I feel really let down by my reality, I spend some time imagining the reality I want in as much detail as possible. I spend time feeling it physically, hearing it as much as I can and seeing every detail. It seems to calm the pain and helps me snap out of "poor me". It helps me feel that I have some ability to create what I'm looking for even if only in my imagination. Sometimes I even get ideas for how I could pursue what I'm looking for more directly.

I know I'm being more curt than usual and I've read posts from you while you were in this state before. The very first question you asked in this thread was: "Am I being too honest?". I think you aren't being honest enough.

Sincerely,

GAATT
 
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Edit:

Sorry if people saw the initial response but this evening things have changed massively.

Under the advice of a friend, I finally told L how she felt and she responded in a way I couldn't have guessed.

She feels the same way, it was just circumstances that she happens to also be in love with brian whom she met on the same trip to england.

I am just shocked! sinse I've never felt anyone wanted that sort of connection with me, but to learn someone does! I am so unbelievably happy. I know this seems crazy. L still loves brian, admits as much, and nothing changes that, but the fact that she feels! as she does, I never even thought that was possible.

I'm frankly stunned, indeed I don't even know what I should be feeling at this point other than extremely pleased!

Maybe this means if L can feel this way, someone else will? it might be possible after all.
 
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