Tolerate A Certain Level of BS??

[Magellan]

I have a question to ask all of you.

Is it assumed that most people you meet are going to always throw a certain level of BS towards you? I mean, do you just automatically assume when you meet someone that what they're presenting to you is BS? And do you equally operate from a premise that you have to work to lower the other person's apprehension and discomfort so that they begin to reveal their true authentic selves to you, and drop the facade?

I'd *really* appreciate some responses to this question. Because I'm perplexed by something in my life that seems to demand some understanding of what I asked above.

I've lamented here too many times how stupid I feel that I am. I don't understand other people's behaviors. I also don't trust others easily. Or, sometimes, I'll trust far too quickly. Because I need to be loved and accepted so badly. Long story short, I really did develop incredibly distorted psychologically, and my self-taught behavioral mechanisms for making friends wound up hurting a few people, and has crippled me from being able to connect to anyone at all.

I grew up devoutly religious. Lying and dishonesty was exed out of my life permanently. I also became rather judgmental of the idea of lying and gossip in others. Additionally, I was severely neglected by my family. Add in some schoolyard bullying, 2 physical handicaps, and an incestuous relationship with a 4 year older cousin, and it's a recipe for a psychogical nightmare.

Yesterday I wrote a long post about trying to figure out if I'm stupid, or of something else is at play. When I see how little tolerance I have for BS and interpersonal politics, and how I immediately turn away when ever I identify that kind of behavior in others, am I limiting my own prospects for meeting people and perhaps making friendships? Is this profound stupidity I feel about people the direct result of my deciding to not tolderate BS from other people?

It occurs to me to ask this of all of you, and hoping I can get a fair and insightful answer of the chorus of voices here.

I truly am wondering at this very moment if I'm really psychologically stupid (because I can't understand people), or if this is a developmental thing that I never went through. Do children learn and eventually accept that people just put on a false mask all the time, and then develop social skills to learn how to pierce through different people's masks, and make authentic connections?

Maybe that's where my stupidity is - I never developed the comprehension and understanding of the BS that people play, and consequentially, never learned the skills necessary to pierce through the BS to make authentic connections.

 

[Castle]

.

 

[don64]

Hi Magellan,

My experience is the older I get the more I enjoy my own company. I spent many years looking for Mr. Right, and spent many years with men who were emotionally unavailable and unable to see me or value me. As I have stuck with the long course in self improvement and healing, I see I was unable to see or value myself. I feel I have to be the person I am seeking before he will recognize me. For me, that is a very tall order because I sustained so much damage. However, I do continue to heal. It is a life long goal for me. I figure if I ever get healthy enough for what I'm interested in, he'll show up.

For me, I don't care if I have more than one friend. I no longer have a tolerance for superficial relationships. My experience is most people don't have much tolerance for truth and introspection.

Sending you love and support,

Don

 

[kcinohio]

Personally, I think there is a huge difference between BS and casual low-key connections. Discussing the weather with someone is mundane perhaps, but there is weather. It isn't BS. It certainly won't give any deep connection within the psyche, but a conversation about it isn't likely to lead to either person being hurt either.

Some of us had to work at being more guarded rather than too open and vulnerable to others. If I already have a couple friends and someone comes at me looking for something deep while simultaneously having a disdain for life in general, I don't know what to do with that. I certainly don't want to open myself up to potential attack by revealing anything deep in response.

Whereas if someone has a casual observation of the weather, even if grousing about it, I can at least respond authentically about that subject without vulnerable risk. I'm not consciously going to volunteer for being someone's (verbal) hostage at first. I've known a few too many needy narcissists to risk that offhand. Not doing that is progress on my journey with this survivor stuff.

Don't know if that perspective is of any use. i know I personally could use some improvement on the moderate socializing, that between everyday pleasantries and the deeper, closer revealing. So, there's always more to be learned.

 

[Magellan]

Thanks for your replies, guys. What I don't understand is how to get from "talking about the weather" to more connective things that actually connect me to another person.

I'm unable to.

I honestly wonder if I'm defective/broken/retarded/autistic. My genetic father was developmentally retarded. I have his genes .... so .... maybe I am too??

I can't make sense of this disaster people call my life.

 

[don64]

Great point kc. I still have to work at being too open and vulnerable, and too pleasing and too accommodating. It leads to situations where I feel used, and am being used as I have not been able to take the time to see how much of myself is balanced, comfortable and safe to expose in a situation. Then I feel resentment and fear because I wasn't able to set healthy limits with myself for taking the time to slowly get to know someone. And I wind up giving a lot more than I receive. It seems I always begin relationships with a mindset that all the love and acceptance I'm looking for is there for me, if I just show up. Discernment was not something I ever learned, and am having to become discerning now in my 60's. I have learned that it is me that allows this pattern to be set in motion, but it is a slow pattern for me to change. Thanks for bringing this up. It is hugely an issue for me. I am making slow progress.

Don

 

[Acorn2Oak]

Magellan, can really relate to your question. In my case, also raised in a religious (extremely authoritarian) home. Also, socially inept, also LOW tolerance for BS, also assumed most people lead with that, and tried to figure ways to get through it to something more real. A LOT of work with very little reward in most cases. I used to be really jealous and resentful of all those happy go lucky, cast caution to the wind and laugh and talk with anyone people. Not anymore.

Some of my conclusions for me in this context: LOW tolerance for BS not a result of my moral or religious high ground (though it seems my standards are stricter than most) but anger at betrayal from those who shouldn't have been BSing me (same "good christian" parents tossed me in the crocodile pit and who punished me for lying -- even when I didn't -- thus taught me to lie to myself and others and lied to me from day one -- I was adopted, i;m NOT automatically going to hell, etc., etc......., kids at elementary school acted nice at first then turned mean.) I learned its wise not to trust appearances when the majority of my early experience PROVED people, even people I may have initially liked (thought safe, nice, etc) would hurt me in some way, make fun of me, abuse me, etc.

Also: Seems to me that some people are so deep in delusion (possibly as a coping mech from their own abuse) that they don't know they are bullshitting. They actually think they are being real/honest but are woefully -- to my eyes -- superficial. I could see through their facades that they didn't know were facades. Being somewhat empathic, I could sense beneath appearances to feelings they may not have even realized they had. It's like the abuse trained me to pay close attention, look for contradictions, ulterior motives, etc. The contrast I sense between how someone behaves and how I feel/sense that they actually feel can be hard to tolerate sometimes. I guess I've gotten used to that to some degree because it doesn't bother me so much these days -- at least I don't take it so personally and get so angry about it. (I also socialize very little because it's hard work seeing through BS all the time to find something I can relate to -- or worth relating to.)

Also: Not everyone is mean and out to get me. In my case, I realized I tended to find what I was looking for. Being hyper-alert to BS meant I saw it everywhere and tended to attract people full of it. It's also possible I "saw" it even when it wasn't there due to my own overactive defense mechanisms. However, the more real/honest I became with myself, the more I began to meet people who were real/honest with themselves - and thus with me.

I think another aspect is that BS isn't always malicious. People talking about the weather, as mentioned earlier, are still trying to connect in the way they know how and can also feel safe. I expect (though forget sometimes) that most people I meet are probably like me in some way -- thus may have their own issues they are trying more or less successfully to cope with and navigate in this insane asylum called planet earth. I can't fault them for their ways of coping, perhaps unconsciously, with issues similar to mine. BUT, if they are unwilling/unable to admit those issues for whatever reason, then I already know that a real/meaningful connection is unlikely and I tend to keep my distance. HOWEVER, their inability to get real doesn't always (or automatically) mean they are out to get me. So I do aim to discern that distinction as best I can.

I'm still socially inept. However, I'm also extremely introverted (the minority -- that's NOT an issue/problem/disability, just the way I'm wired) and so am disinclined to extroverted (the majority) type interactions. And I'm now more OK with that.

SO, I look for people who are self-honest, self-responsible introverts to connect with. Its MUCH easier most of the time, as we have an innate connection and understanding that doesn't need explaining or apologizing for. Introverts (who KNOW they are introverts) I've found, also have a tendency to go deeper and are less interested in superficial BS. I tell people these days, I don't care about the weather, I want to know how you feel about things. I can be amiable with those who can't discuss their own feelings, but my friends -- or friendly acquaintances at least, will have no problem getting personal and saying how they feel about stuff.

Behind all this is a decision I made to take care of/protect myself, maintain my integrity as a person. That may mean I "sacrifice" a potential relationship. But that's in part because NO amount of connection (feel good) can compensate for the conflicts/pain arising from sacrificing myself to an unworthy and hopeless cause.

Anyway ... for what it's worth ... hope this helps.

 

[bluesky]

Hi Magellan
Looking back I never had more than one or two friends. Even now at 44 I still have 2 or 3. I have lots of casual friends from the congregation I go to. But I find most people so superficial so shallow. Very few people have the capacity to be them selves. When I lived and was in rabbinical seminary for 13 years it was the first time in my life that I met a few real people. The dean and a few other seminarians one is still my friend he is my best friend, but the dean that I was very close with died 3 years ago.
What I find is that I can talk with people but people are so untrusting so scared how others will judge them that they only want to talk BS. It's rare to find someone that is willing to share any thing past the weather. What I'm going to say next may sound like I'm blowing my horn but my T said that he thinks people are intimidated by my intelligence, he said most people don't look at the world the way I do. I can comment with confidence almost on any topic. I never realized this but I tested it and I think he is right people are uncomfortable if you know to much they think your BSing them or that your a know it all. So what I have done is try not to over do it on what I know and try to see if this person that I am engaging with can be a friend on a different level. I alow them to be if they let me in then great if not then I move on. But in truth I feel if I have one or three friends that I'm good.
I know how that loneliness feels for years I had no real friends just BS. So hang in there you can make friends. And I just would like to say that you are not dumb or anything like that. That's just an old script playing in your head. Try to look at yourself for what you are and that's not your disability. You are more than that.
Bluesky

 

[SmartShadow]

Hay Megellan,
I have come to understand that people are complicated. I also have no friends out of choise. I could have friends if I play "my part" The role that make them think I am a nice guy and easy to get along with. The role where I show up and fit in to there reality. If I realy show up in a true form... Well it's hard on everyone including me.

We all operate with a Public, Private and Personal mode of relating.

Public = weather sports news events
Personal = safe fealings and thoughts with trusted friends/famil, support network
Private = the stuff we only convey to the most trusted most safe if at all.

BS is some times a way to keep it safe and on the light side of things.

I keep it between the first two if i want the relationship to survive.

I have such limited relational capacity I tend to just send off the vibe that my dance card is full.

Not to unlike what Don said, my goal is to connect with myself and learn to love the damaged and rejected parts of myself. The rest will follow.

 

[Magellan]

Thanks for the insightful and thoughtful replies, guys.

Acorn2Oak adds to the complexity, for which I'm just simply overwhelmed. Not only am I missing signals and cues, I also experienced damn near everyone betraying me when I was a child. There were only 2 people I could count on when I was a child, my distant grandparents who lived in a different city. I was lucky if I got to see them once a year.

I couldn't trust anyone at all when I was a kid.

It's hard to not conclude that I've been completely fucked over, with no recourse for any recovery.

Regarding trust - how the hell am I supposed to learn how to trust other people if most of my experience is of untrustworthy people? Additionally, how the hell am I supposed to learn how to trust others, if I can't even trust my own senses and instincts?

I've tried for 32 years at this recovery thing, and I'm out of ideas on what to do next (I've done literally everything suggested). I've failed everything else.

 

[don64]

Hi Magellan,

I'm in the same boat as you as far as trust goes. I couldn't trust anyone as a child, and still don't really trust anyone. And, the culprit is I'm not able to trust myself. I'm going through a period of confusion and paranoia right now. But, when I'm not in the thick of it as now, I have slowly developed a trust in certain processes within myself, particularly over the last 1 1/2 years since being a part of the survivor community. For example, even though I can't trust my thinking and my decision making right now, I know I will eventually resolve the issues I'm so concerned about right now. What is different for me now is that I finally learned my fight or flight responses learned in infancy and early childhood always propelled me, out of fear, to make hasty and premature decisions. So, I stayed in a self-fulfilling prophecy mode for over 60 years. I'm now able to pull back and be as patient as I need to be, most of the time, for a new and more comfortable position to form in myself.

Sending you love and support,

Don