The old fashioned way ?

[Lloydy]

I was talking to another Survivor the other day and we got to talking about his favorite subject - the way he's coped through ( mainly ) his own strength and will power.

Some people might say the guy's a bit crazy, but he's no crazier than many other people I know, he lives his life as he wishes to live it and I don't think he'd be much different if he had gone through all the 'modern' therapies etc.

He's somewhere about 60yo, and was abused within his family. From those days on he's developed a "fuck it!" attitude and dug deep into his personal reserves and strengths and, in his words, "figured it out for myself"

What he says is that he does his own butt kicking, he uses his will power to change the way he behaved and thought.
His theory is, that because today we live in societies that have more access to 'help' through therapy, self help groups, web sites like this, books and all manner of other things we get lazy and begin to rely on others instead of doing the hard work ourselves.

I tend to disagree with him, although I can understand his point that 'help' wasn't so available 40 years ago.
It's always a good argument to have over a beer, and one we've argued about many times.

I just thought I'd see if you guys had any thoughts on how 'we' might deal with our situations without the 'help' ?

Dave

 

[Archnut]

Help = oblivion

Archnut

 

[andrew51]

Hi Dave, I can relate to your friend's way of thinking to a certain degree. I think there is a time when you just have to, as they would say on my son's hockey team, "suck it up buttercup". But I temper that by adding that maybe a more balanced approach is best i.e. looking for and receiving support and also digging deep to find the strength and answers within yourself. The latter is often missing from some people who IMHO might best be described as professional victims, leaping from one crisis to another and laying the blame on SA. Peace, Andrew

 

[estuardo]

My two cents,

40 years ago, we didn't have the technology, and "post-modern christanity" we experience today.

Alvin Toffler's book "The Third Wave", writen in the early '80's, predicted that, as a society with advanced technology, computers in every home, etc., we would become more reclusive, independent, and more 'lonely' people. We have in essence, built walls, and then do things like this in order to communicate with each other, to the point where we would rather have this, than a face to face conversation.

It's become almost taboo to talk with somebody about your problems, unless it's within the confines of a 'group-therapy' session. What was easy to do back a couple of generations ago, has become difficult. People had a better sense of belonging in their 'community'.

 

[scarman]

interesting...

My opinion on this can very depending on the mood I'm in. Sometimes I feel as though I can justify anything......

I feel sorry for the people struggling years ago to have to deal with these things on their own. Think back, for years, as many of you have stated, I held it all inside. I went about life as if "it" didn't happen. I'm guessing that is what it must have been like before help was available. Until I reached out for help, I didn't realize how being sexually abused by my highschool coach had affected my personality. From that day on I was,"different". Not everyone noticed. Until my first wife left me, I didn't tell a soul. After my next relationship failed, I started digging deep into why...what was,"wrong" with me. A couple of years and alot of time in court, another failed relationship, some time in group and individual therapy and I'm realizing it wasn't me. It was how I was dealing with, or not dealing with the abuse. Yes, I've used the,"fuck it" attitude plenty of times. But it doesn't seem to work for me. This is the easy way, the lazy way, the way to go when I don't have the energy to deal with it. It just seems to push everyone away. I've come to realize, I don't want to push anyone away. I'm very thankful for the help I've received. And I'm glad to know that it's available as needed. Because I know at some point I'll need it again.

Thanks for the post, it's nice to reflect on who we are, and how we've shaped our lives.

Here is another twist. What do you guys think of this possibilty? Is there a link betweeen the lact of support/help for victims of SA years ago, and the continuing abuse that was passed from generation to generation? I can only hope that the current support we have will help put a stop to this patern.

shawn

 

[Brayton]

Being 50 years old I guess I must have experienced some or a lot of the same social changes your friend has. Given that, I find it hard to believe that he thinks that accepting an offer of help is being lazy or that to work with other guys on a job that needs doing is weakness.

As far as I can tell, only a few years ago male CSA wasn't even acknowledged, much less specifically treated. The same goes for books written, support groups formed, websites founded, and etc.

Guys my age had no choice but to draw on whatever we could find within ourselves to keep on going. It's hard for me to define except to say that it included sheer gut strength, stubborness, and lots and lots of anger.

I have seen therapists off and on for over 30 years and, I can tell you, until the last several years it was all BS.

I suppose the time I spent as a kid incarcerated in a mental ward kept me from killing myself but that's the only thing it did.

I had to find ways, on my own, to deal with depression. The so-called experts were dumbasses about it. One psychiatrist just sat and grinned at me for an hour every day.

I survived that sick place, its secrets, its incompetencies, its cruelty, its padded cell, its 'behavior modification' therapies, and etc.

I survived alcoholism and stopped drinking. I know that detox, its padded cell (another one!) and chronic alcoholics gave me a good slap in the face.

It certainly wasn't the few AA meetings I could stand going to. I have nothing against 12-step programs, they just don't work for me and so have had to figure out something that does work.

I had a hard time keeping down a job but, of course, I kept trying. I was unemployed from time to time but then each time found some kind of job again.

I tried going to college, stayed for a year, couldn't handle more but, hey, at least I tried.

I tried and failed at relationships.

I made enemies, lost friends, alienated family members, mismanaged money, got into debt, got out again, and then in again. I believed in things, lost faith, found other things to believe in and on and on and on.

I guess you could say I figured things out for myself. I can't think what else I would've done except died.

What does anyone do without therapy, support groups, this website? Any one of us who survives would do the same thing we already do between therapy sessions, between group meetings, and when we aren't or can't be here on this site. We figure it out.

It is the same thing that guys do who don't have access to therapy or who have it cut off after a few weeks or months or who don't have access to support groups.

Practically all the crap I had to deal with for all those years was due to the fact that male CSA was not acknowledged. As that brings with it effective therapy which is ever (I hope) more widely available, and real support from other guys I say to all that, yeah! finally!

Even the guys who feel most hopeless use guts every day to get through, they just aren't able yet to give themselves credit for that. I'm glad if they have available the kind of support I would have been grateful for years ago. Thank G-d for it!

 

[estuardo]

Originally posted by scarman:
Here is another twist. What do you guys think of this possibilty? Is there a link betweeen the lact of support/help for victims of SA years ago, and the continuing abuse that was passed from generation to generation? I can only hope that the current support we have will help put a stop to this patern.

Scarman,

I believe this issue has always been a taboo topic. Naturally, people want to understand this, but the question becomes, for what purpose? It's being protrayed on TV as some sort of 'right of passage'. In America, on ABC a new series "Desperate Housewives" has a character in her mid 30's who has a teenage boy "lover". Since the series is new, we won't know how they will play out his or her role, but the message is clear, what's good for the goose... If the roles were reversed (older man, teenage girl), there would be up-roar!

My point is, you are right, as long as we don't REALLY talk about the ramifications of the damage done, then society can justify it's apathy, (and even poke fun at it)

 

[reality2k4]

There have been many times in my life, when I neve thought I would ever get over this without help.

I never got the help, because I never knew where to even start looking, so I just lived on with it, and tried to live a normal life. It doesn't work quite that way, but I have survived the worst.

I have done a lot of work on me, and I will continue to do so, well into the future.

I think, if I got help now, then I would be looking for the miracles, we know are never there. So I just keep going.

This site has given me a terrific insight into the "dynamics of effect", I now know, I am not nuts, but just conditioned by past experiences. I can now fit some of it together and make sense of it all.

ste

 

[Dan88]

I think your friend is trying to make a distinction where one doesn't exist, probably to prove he's tougher than other people. At the end of the day, we all go it alone and we all get help -- just not necessarily from a therapist.

I've taken a ton of drugs, been a womanizer, been a work-a-holic, exercised compulsively, used alcohol, read, gone to therapy, and networked at sites like this and done a boatload of other shit all in an effort to keep the boat on course. And you can classify it all as "getting help" in as much as it kept me going.

But there was certainly nothing easier about going to therapy and "getting help" that way compared to "getting help" from any of the other means I used. I lost my job because I went for therapy. All that other shit never cost me that. So which was the harder thing to do?

 

[RICK57]

If I'd never got help/support, I would never have written the statement that I did recently. Now he is known in the community whether he comes to trial or not. I'm pleased that I stopped trying to work it out by myself. The children in our town are a lot safer now.

best wishes....Rik

 

[blacken]

Hey, if he was able to pull it off, great. But I would be dead today without counseling. Period.

 

[Lloydy]

This is interesting, the feeling I get is that although so many of us do accept and use all the help we can, we still feel strongly that WE do the work, which is my feeling as well.

I think that because there are more sources of help we use them to EDUCATE ourselves rather than rely on them.
Yes, there are people who fall into the trap of thinking that just because they seek help they don't have to do anything for themselves. These people think that the healing will be done for them, just as they probably believe in Santa Claus ! But I do think it's a very small minority of Survivors, and not the type of Survivor we generally see at MS. If someone makes enough effort to come here then it's reasonable to say they're making an 'all-round' effort.

I think your friend is trying to make a distinction where one doesn't exist, probably to prove he's tougher than other people.

Dan, I get this impression as well. And I know he does use many sources of 'private' help. But what he's done has worked, to a very large degree, for him. So he does have some claim to bragging rights.

I have huge admiration for his 'style', while still arguing with him strongly that we can't all do our healing in this 'go it alone' manner.
There's so much of what he does that I'd love to bottle and sell, but it's impossible to quantify. When we talk he tells me what he's done and the way he thinks, but it's beyond words.
Possibly the nearest I can get to it is to describe it as a 'fighting spirit'.
I know we all have it, but have we tapped into it as much as we could, or are we scared of unleashing our fighting spirit because we've kept it subdued for so long?

Dave

 

[Whicker]

As for the 'Old Fashioned Way',

I have to wonder how many who held to the OFW killed themselves?
Abused alcohol?
Destroyed Family lives/life?
Ruined career(s)?
Lived a truly rotten existence, feeling alone and abaondoned by the society to which they belonged?

A believe 'Modern' methods and available resources are a Godsend, if One chooses to employ them.

Just my .02 worth.

Whicker

 

[reality2k4]

Whicker, totally true what you say, but. We who had to do it the OFW, did it because nothing else was available to us at the time.

When it happenend to me 40yrs ago, there was nothing available, CSA, was treated like losing your bike! Or so it seemed to me as a kid.

Modern methods are a godsend, and I hope anyone in here who can benefit, surely take the steps needed to find this help.

The nearest help I can find is 40 miles away, costs $80+, per hour, I don't earn much. Catch 22 situation, but I really don't see anyhow, why we have to pay!

I really pray for those who didn't make it. Surely their souls will rest, because, as a kid, it really is hard to get past it. I for one nearly went through the exit.

ste

 

[Nealus]

Brayton,

I'm new here - as of today. I enjoyed your post and especially this one line:
"I can't think what else I would've done except died."

We are close in age. In our age group - we were told "Pick Yourself Up By Your BootStraps"

I couldn't.....and I honestly sometimes - don't know - how I have managed to survive all these years.

I do have some philosophies - and have learned philosophies - that helped me along the way - that I will share - as I get more acquainted with this forum.

Just wanted to let you know - that this newbie[to this board] - benefitted quit a bit from your writing.