The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
- Thread starterRJD
- Start date
So each person has the right to choose whether or not to love God, or even to believe in Him--or how to believe, for that matter. Again, I'm talking about my understanding of & feelings about the Christian faith, for what they're worth.
As much as I falter in practicing it, I believe what I believe deeply. And becuz I do, I believe deeply in the right of each person to believe and even behave as they choose--as long as they're willing to face the consequences.
I think I know what you might be saying, but I don't like to ass-u-me. So I'll just say that when people abuse, rape & kill, God is around (becuz He is everywhere) but He is not in it.
That is, the heart of God is not in evil. I believe this is becuz God is not in the heart, or being taken to heart, by people when they do evil. God is there trying to work in them, help them be who He made them to be in His image. But He is not with them, or any of us, in evil-doing.
Z, tragically, you are so right. And it's those pious platitudes that really piss me, and obviously many other, off. There is no excuse for religion that makes excuses for evils contrary to that religion, whether done in the name of that religion or not. Furthermore, in my understanding,
that is not true Christianity as the Bible describes it.
The key as you indicate is that we have gotten away from that Bible, from the teachings & example of Jesus and His faithful followers thru the ages. Much evil & abuse is the tragic result.
Z, I believe as you do that God loves us, hates evil & what it does to us, but gives us the choice to do evil if we choose. I believe this becuz I believe the Bible and I believe my own experience & that of many others.
However, I also know this is not the experience of many others, whom I admire & respect a great deal. Nor was it my own experience for 22 years. Nor has it been in the last 24 years an experience with a lot of struggles & doubts. So it's not hard for me to understand why so many don't want to believe or find it so hard to do so.
It sure ain't easy for me!
Yes, clearly so many of us have in some way been hurt by the direct or indirect abuse, the apathy & neglect, the uncertainties & inconsistencies, of religious people & sometimes even the true Church, when it is not being true to Christ. Like you, Z, I grieve for them, for all of us.
Z thanks for sharing your sincere feelings of care & compassion for all of your fellow survivors, whatever paths they have chosen to walk in survival & healing. My hope & prayer for each one is that each one of us may find their journey full of joy & peace, and the fullness & vitality of healing & really living, of becoming whole, their best & complete & truest self, survivors & thrivers.
Victor
I honor your courage to say what you feel zadoc1. I believe I understand your need to speak and to be clear on these matters. At least I hope I understand.
I have a need to put things in order also and try to be clear. When awful things happened to me it was way beyond my capacity to understand, because I was a child. I could not make sense of anything because all parents are like gods to their children, and god/ parents knew better than I did as a child. As a child my parents have control over my very life and death. My fear, as a child, might be if mommy doesnt love me I might die. Who would feed me? Who would care for me? What I believe is a fact, is that children fashion their understanding of God by the modeling they see in their parents. Our parents are all powerful to us when we are growing up. This is where my understanding comes in, of the spiritual breech that occurs with severe child abuse. I know this is where my lack of connectedness comes in to my relationship with a ( pardon my detachment here) so called higher power or God. Im still in the negotiating stages for trusting myself as well as outside of myself. The risk of trusting has a life and death feel to it. I might die if I trust or I might die if I dont trust. Trusting my mother felt like my soul was dying. It has been a lifelong task to re-learn to trust. It has not been that long ago that I began to understand(pardon the expression) the leap of faith that it takes to re-establish trust. As a matter of fact that understanding came from such a mundane place as an Indiana Jones movie where they had to walk across a deep precipice over an invisible bridge to reach a cave on the other side. In my suspended disbelief it was a powerful moment.
I have a half-sister who is a nun who has no doubt and thinks it is foolish to begin to doubt because that would be so illogical.
I know we all have choices but as children we do not have the capacity to see those choices. The compulsive masturbation and distorted fantasies were resulting from the warped love loyalties that were far beyond my capacity to understand or make right. The sexual over-stimulation was far beyond my capacity to control for so young a man. The normal couse of sexual/emotional was prevented for which there were consequences that again were way out of my control.
Ive always had difficulty with the so-called age of reason being set at seven years old. This magic moment when choice becomes free.
My mother was taking me to bed with her from about the age 14 to 17. I know when I look at a fourteen year old boy today that it was no contest with my mother. She had absolute control when I see it rationally, but as a 14 yo, I understood that my culpability started when I was 7 and I was going to burn for eternity in hell for what I was doing night after night, after night..
What a bunch of crap I was fed..
I have a need to put things in order also and try to be clear. When awful things happened to me it was way beyond my capacity to understand, because I was a child. I could not make sense of anything because all parents are like gods to their children, and god/ parents knew better than I did as a child. As a child my parents have control over my very life and death. My fear, as a child, might be if mommy doesnt love me I might die. Who would feed me? Who would care for me? What I believe is a fact, is that children fashion their understanding of God by the modeling they see in their parents. Our parents are all powerful to us when we are growing up. This is where my understanding comes in, of the spiritual breech that occurs with severe child abuse. I know this is where my lack of connectedness comes in to my relationship with a ( pardon my detachment here) so called higher power or God. Im still in the negotiating stages for trusting myself as well as outside of myself. The risk of trusting has a life and death feel to it. I might die if I trust or I might die if I dont trust. Trusting my mother felt like my soul was dying. It has been a lifelong task to re-learn to trust. It has not been that long ago that I began to understand(pardon the expression) the leap of faith that it takes to re-establish trust. As a matter of fact that understanding came from such a mundane place as an Indiana Jones movie where they had to walk across a deep precipice over an invisible bridge to reach a cave on the other side. In my suspended disbelief it was a powerful moment.
I have a half-sister who is a nun who has no doubt and thinks it is foolish to begin to doubt because that would be so illogical.
I know we all have choices but as children we do not have the capacity to see those choices. The compulsive masturbation and distorted fantasies were resulting from the warped love loyalties that were far beyond my capacity to understand or make right. The sexual over-stimulation was far beyond my capacity to control for so young a man. The normal couse of sexual/emotional was prevented for which there were consequences that again were way out of my control.
Ive always had difficulty with the so-called age of reason being set at seven years old. This magic moment when choice becomes free.
My mother was taking me to bed with her from about the age 14 to 17. I know when I look at a fourteen year old boy today that it was no contest with my mother. She had absolute control when I see it rationally, but as a 14 yo, I understood that my culpability started when I was 7 and I was going to burn for eternity in hell for what I was doing night after night, after night..
What a bunch of crap I was fed..
I have no doubt in God, but that is me. i will defend the right of everyone to choose and live as they please, as long as they don't usurp the rights of others to do the same. if belief is not in someone, then it isn't in them. that is something that cannot be given by another. i have always wished that i could reach inside, and allow others to feel and share what i have. that isn't possible, so i have said my peace, and wish each of you only the best.
perhaps life has dealt many pains that they cannot overcome, but that is for the thousand year time of teaching. our Father loves us, and dont ever think you will be condemn to eternal death based on what we know now. all will have thier chance, and only those that are completely corrupt will perish. i know each and every one will get the justice and love they earn.
zadok(hebrew)-God's elected or justified ones
perhaps life has dealt many pains that they cannot overcome, but that is for the thousand year time of teaching. our Father loves us, and dont ever think you will be condemn to eternal death based on what we know now. all will have thier chance, and only those that are completely corrupt will perish. i know each and every one will get the justice and love they earn.
zadok(hebrew)-God's elected or justified ones
It is always sad for me to see the depth of harm done to really good people who have lived a truly phony life of religion and promoted a truly sick idea of God.
If I could give an answer to the mystery of evil I would be a very wealthy man and probably have gotten a Nobel in some area. I have come to a point where I no longer try to understand any part of it.
Before I was sexually abused I have been physically abused for years. I have no idea why God allowed any of it. I play with the idea of free-will and it helps a bit.
Many years ago I came to the conclusion that Gods knows my innards better than I ever will--so I have trusted His patience and understanding of me and my many failings. If I am wrong about God and God's understanding of us--then I am damned beyond any doubt. I choose to believe that I am correct in my relationaship with God.
If anyone really worries in their mind or heart that God might damn them to hell for what they have felt, said, thought, done etc. I just disagree completely. God knows us and the horrific pain and damage that has been done to us.
If God gets his nose out of joint over those things, given the damage done to us, then he is not the God I know and my whole life has been futile. I choose to elieve it has not been futile.
Bob
If I could give an answer to the mystery of evil I would be a very wealthy man and probably have gotten a Nobel in some area. I have come to a point where I no longer try to understand any part of it.
Before I was sexually abused I have been physically abused for years. I have no idea why God allowed any of it. I play with the idea of free-will and it helps a bit.
Many years ago I came to the conclusion that Gods knows my innards better than I ever will--so I have trusted His patience and understanding of me and my many failings. If I am wrong about God and God's understanding of us--then I am damned beyond any doubt. I choose to believe that I am correct in my relationaship with God.
If anyone really worries in their mind or heart that God might damn them to hell for what they have felt, said, thought, done etc. I just disagree completely. God knows us and the horrific pain and damage that has been done to us.
If God gets his nose out of joint over those things, given the damage done to us, then he is not the God I know and my whole life has been futile. I choose to elieve it has not been futile.
Bob
Dave.
Thanks for your reply, regarding the actions of my perp. I found your post illuminating. As we have now reached our 1000th member for me this highlights the value in a site such as this. The pool of knowledge is truely immense on here.
On Saterday 11th January on Channel 4 at 7pm is a documentary named Abused and Catholic. I'm hoping to video it, so I can watch it in my own time and pause it if I so wish.
Mattandrew.
I thank you for your reply too. I scares me just how many perps are drawn towards becomimng health professionals. I don't think my ex girlfriend would mind me saying, she didn't have a vast array of friends and yet when my abuse became knowledge and she spoke to her best friend, (with my knowledge) she found out that her best friends brother had been raped/abused in hospital too. Sadly he committed suicide. I only wish he had found this marvellous, supportive community he may be here now if he had.
Thanks everyone for being there when I've needed you. Mark
Thanks for your reply, regarding the actions of my perp. I found your post illuminating. As we have now reached our 1000th member for me this highlights the value in a site such as this. The pool of knowledge is truely immense on here.
On Saterday 11th January on Channel 4 at 7pm is a documentary named Abused and Catholic. I'm hoping to video it, so I can watch it in my own time and pause it if I so wish.
Mattandrew.
I thank you for your reply too. I scares me just how many perps are drawn towards becomimng health professionals. I don't think my ex girlfriend would mind me saying, she didn't have a vast array of friends and yet when my abuse became knowledge and she spoke to her best friend, (with my knowledge) she found out that her best friends brother had been raped/abused in hospital too. Sadly he committed suicide. I only wish he had found this marvellous, supportive community he may be here now if he had.
Thanks everyone for being there when I've needed you. Mark
RJD: You are so right about how our understanding of & relationship with God is so vitally shaped or mis-shaped by our parenting or lack of it. I too still have difficulty trusting God, and I sure have my doubts at times.
I'm not sure where that age 7 age of reason comes from but I sure don't agree with it. I think its different ages for different people for different things. I also think that a child of any age, sometimes even as an adult, is very much under the power of their parents, as adults are under the power of bosses for example.
No one can stand & judge who will or won't go to hell, or heaven. But I do know that if God condemns people who have been abused & controlled & live with those consequences, He is a God too small for me. Kinda like Bob, I choose to believe He is bigger & better than that.
Bob: I very much share the kinds of beliefs & feelings you express in your post, about God, about the problem of evil.
The way I see it, if God is small enuf for me to completely understand, what do I need Him for? He's then way too small for me! I of course choose to believe that He is not, and to live with what I don't understand about the evils & abuses in this world.
So I don't have some questions answered. They weren't answered before I believed either.
I think it's like now I'm learning to just ask different questions?...
MarkS: Thanks for mentioning that documentary, and the good idea of taping it. That's probably the only way I could watch it, if I can...
Victor
I'm not sure where that age 7 age of reason comes from but I sure don't agree with it. I think its different ages for different people for different things. I also think that a child of any age, sometimes even as an adult, is very much under the power of their parents, as adults are under the power of bosses for example.
No one can stand & judge who will or won't go to hell, or heaven. But I do know that if God condemns people who have been abused & controlled & live with those consequences, He is a God too small for me. Kinda like Bob, I choose to believe He is bigger & better than that.
Bob: I very much share the kinds of beliefs & feelings you express in your post, about God, about the problem of evil.
The way I see it, if God is small enuf for me to completely understand, what do I need Him for? He's then way too small for me! I of course choose to believe that He is not, and to live with what I don't understand about the evils & abuses in this world.
So I don't have some questions answered. They weren't answered before I believed either.
I think it's like now I'm learning to just ask different questions?...
MarkS: Thanks for mentioning that documentary, and the good idea of taping it. That's probably the only way I could watch it, if I can...
Victor
andrew-almost52
Registrant
Dear MattAndrew, I so agree with your sentiments about this posting. The opinions are so divergent and the stories so heartbreaking. I, like you, don't really have a clear understanding about God, at least not the God described to me as a child. But I do know there is something greater and more powerful than you and I, and for now, that is enough. And I'll give you a couple of examples as to how I know. Whenever I think back to when I was little, I remember knowing that something was wrong, very wrong; that some of the adults didn't fit or balance with my innate knowledge of what was just and fair. I believe we all have this instinctive knowledge or sense of universality. Where did this come from? Certainly not from the adults around us. All I learned from them was fear and how to hide from their anger. Then later, while in my twenties, and in a deep depression, I had the opportunity to be atop of Mt. Seymour in British Columbia. What lay before me was the most spectacular, almost surreal, canvas of colour and literal sense of splendour I have ever experienced. Man hadn't made any of it. And yet it was too perfect to not have been designed. It was a very humbling experience, I a mere speck on a magnificent and majestic landscape. Then in more recent years...holding and watching our babies, who are now 9 & 11 years old, watching their faces, totally trusting wonderous eyes, their smiles, their small hands clutching my little finger. Man o man...the feeling I get from that comes from somewhere wonderful MattAndrew.
I think it is so vital that each of us remember we still have the wonderous, trusting sides as a continuing part of ourselves. You were so betrayed MattAndrew and there are very few words that I can find to make you feel better. A young boy should always be able to trust his Dad. So it is even more remarkable that through all your struggles MattAndrew,the one thing that keeps on coming through is your love. Your love of justice, and your love for the people on this forum. How ironic,how miraculous. Now where did that come from? Peace, and God Bless you. Andrew
I think it is so vital that each of us remember we still have the wonderous, trusting sides as a continuing part of ourselves. You were so betrayed MattAndrew and there are very few words that I can find to make you feel better. A young boy should always be able to trust his Dad. So it is even more remarkable that through all your struggles MattAndrew,the one thing that keeps on coming through is your love. Your love of justice, and your love for the people on this forum. How ironic,how miraculous. Now where did that come from? Peace, and God Bless you. Andrew
Mattandrew, you are missing a very important part of this all. We are here in the flesh to be tested, to choose who we will obey and follow. What is sixty or seventy years compared to an eternity? When this is all over, these years we have spent in mortal bodies will be nothing but a blink of the eye. People show their lack of faith in the way they deal with death, and with challenges they face. I was abused, just as the rest here. I am not perfect, but I understand that whether heavenly inspired, or merely the will of man, that abuse served to drive me and mold me. Change one moment of what was, and everything from there forward would change. Perhaps, I wouldnt have met my wife, or had my sons, or matured into the self-aware and faithful man I am now.
Without understanding the whole, we miss the point. Your brother is home, and feels no more suffering, no more pain. Even if he had never repented once, he is with God, awaiting a chance to be taught and tested. No judgment has happened, nor will it until after all that is written has passed. The flesh was created to teach us and test us, it is meant to die. It gives us a taste of death so that we can fully understand what is at stake if we fail to overcome. When the flesh dies it is only temporary, but if your soul dies at judgment, it is truly forever. We are asked to endure pain and suffering for a few years, to measure what kind of people we are. A flesh lifetime is nothing in the overall picture of things.
Look at our children for a moment. Have you punished your kids by grounding them, sending them through a period where they can think about things, and hopefully teach them something? That is what we are here for. Think of it as being grounded for a week, and when we are through with our punishment, we will emerge into the brilliant, painless life waiting just beyond the door. In comparison to an eternity, these few years mean very little.
God never promised us a trouble free walk under the sun. In fact, He warned us again and again that we would have problems to face and overcome. If you give a child everything, and he faces no adversity, why would he ever seek a higher purpose? We would never seek God if we were not given the troubles that drive us to look for answers. BE NOT SURPRISED AT THE FIERY TRIALS.
WHY DO THE HEATHEN RAGE SO? comes to mind as well. Truly evil men rage now because they have no eternity to look for. They are so polluted and corrupt that they have no hope of overcoming, so instead their hearts are bent on making things miserable for the rest. They are drowning men, dragging as many down with them as they can. Never forget that there are both good figs and bad figs here. For every good thing, there is an evil thing. God loves balance, and even in this there is balance and equality. Because a soul is evil, should he be denied the same chance to repent as the rest? No, God gives even the darkest souls a chance to overcome. He will not remove that chance for the sake of another, because this flesh is temporary anyway.
God is concerned with the whole. It is like a coach, it is impossible to spend all the time you need with each person, so you instruct and teach to the whole. It is up to each person to take those teachings and work to improve and grow. Gods plan for us is complete and whole, only it is no longer taught as it was meant to be. Preachers must adhere to the doctrines and accepted practices of their sects, and are not free to teach the word freely as it is written. They have been so polluted with mens beliefs that even the truly well meaning ones can no longer see what is in front of them. It is ultimately up to each person to learn and decide what is right and wrong.
Without understanding the whole, we miss the point. Your brother is home, and feels no more suffering, no more pain. Even if he had never repented once, he is with God, awaiting a chance to be taught and tested. No judgment has happened, nor will it until after all that is written has passed. The flesh was created to teach us and test us, it is meant to die. It gives us a taste of death so that we can fully understand what is at stake if we fail to overcome. When the flesh dies it is only temporary, but if your soul dies at judgment, it is truly forever. We are asked to endure pain and suffering for a few years, to measure what kind of people we are. A flesh lifetime is nothing in the overall picture of things.
Look at our children for a moment. Have you punished your kids by grounding them, sending them through a period where they can think about things, and hopefully teach them something? That is what we are here for. Think of it as being grounded for a week, and when we are through with our punishment, we will emerge into the brilliant, painless life waiting just beyond the door. In comparison to an eternity, these few years mean very little.
God never promised us a trouble free walk under the sun. In fact, He warned us again and again that we would have problems to face and overcome. If you give a child everything, and he faces no adversity, why would he ever seek a higher purpose? We would never seek God if we were not given the troubles that drive us to look for answers. BE NOT SURPRISED AT THE FIERY TRIALS.
WHY DO THE HEATHEN RAGE SO? comes to mind as well. Truly evil men rage now because they have no eternity to look for. They are so polluted and corrupt that they have no hope of overcoming, so instead their hearts are bent on making things miserable for the rest. They are drowning men, dragging as many down with them as they can. Never forget that there are both good figs and bad figs here. For every good thing, there is an evil thing. God loves balance, and even in this there is balance and equality. Because a soul is evil, should he be denied the same chance to repent as the rest? No, God gives even the darkest souls a chance to overcome. He will not remove that chance for the sake of another, because this flesh is temporary anyway.
God is concerned with the whole. It is like a coach, it is impossible to spend all the time you need with each person, so you instruct and teach to the whole. It is up to each person to take those teachings and work to improve and grow. Gods plan for us is complete and whole, only it is no longer taught as it was meant to be. Preachers must adhere to the doctrines and accepted practices of their sects, and are not free to teach the word freely as it is written. They have been so polluted with mens beliefs that even the truly well meaning ones can no longer see what is in front of them. It is ultimately up to each person to learn and decide what is right and wrong.
I've recently read 'The People of the Lie' by M. Scott Peck, I mentioned it earlier.
It has a subtitle "The hope for healing human evil" a noble hope.
It's worth a read, there is some very interesting stuff about evil, forgiveness, and the why's and how's of people becoming evil.
Peck is deeply religious, and as an atheist I find a lot of what he writes does fall into giving religion the praise for the 'good' he writes about where I think that same 'good' can come about without religion.
Also there's a chapter on excorcism that I feel can be explained in more logical ways.
But that's just the way I see it.
Here's a quote from it.
*****************************************
If evil were easy to recognise, identify and manage there would be no need for this book. But the fact of the matter is that it is the most difficult of all things with which to cope. If we, as objectivley mature adults, have great difficulty coming to terms with evil, think what it must be like for the child living in its midst.
The child can only survive by virtue of a massive fortification of its psyche. While such fortifications or pyschological defences are essential to its survival through childhood, they inevitably distort or compromise its life as an adult. It happens then, that the children of evil parents enter adulthood with very significant pyschological disturbances.
We have been working with such victims, often very successfuly, for many years without having to employ the word "evil" . But it is doubtful that some can be wholly healed of their scars from having had to live in close quarters with evil without correctly naming the source of their problems.
To come to terms with evil in ones parentage is perhaps the most difficult and painful pyschological task a human being can be called on to face. Most fail and remain its victims.
Those who succeed in developing the necessary searing vision are those who are able to name it. For to 'come to terms' means to 'arrive at the name'.
As therapists it is our duty what is in our power to assist evil's victims to arrive at the true name of their affliction.
****************************************
That's strong stuff.
His main theory throughout the book is that 'evil' was never recognised as a true human condition, and he belives it should. I agree with him.
He also goes into great detail about what constitutes an 'evil' person. And that's where he gets very interesting.
Nomally we save the title of 'evil' for the cruel murderers, torturers, rapists and abusers of this world. Peck argues, convincingly, that 'evil' goes way beyond that - or should that be - back from that ?
He argues that 'evil' can be as little as parents being ignorant and selfish to a childs needs. They might never harm the child physically, might provide everything the child needs and would unfailingly love the child. But something in the parent prevents them from allowing the child to flourish and develop properly.
It isn't 'evil' with malice - just ignorance of some kind.
It's a difficult - uncomfortable - read, but interesting.
Dave
It has a subtitle "The hope for healing human evil" a noble hope.
It's worth a read, there is some very interesting stuff about evil, forgiveness, and the why's and how's of people becoming evil.
Peck is deeply religious, and as an atheist I find a lot of what he writes does fall into giving religion the praise for the 'good' he writes about where I think that same 'good' can come about without religion.
Also there's a chapter on excorcism that I feel can be explained in more logical ways.
But that's just the way I see it.
Here's a quote from it.
*****************************************
If evil were easy to recognise, identify and manage there would be no need for this book. But the fact of the matter is that it is the most difficult of all things with which to cope. If we, as objectivley mature adults, have great difficulty coming to terms with evil, think what it must be like for the child living in its midst.
The child can only survive by virtue of a massive fortification of its psyche. While such fortifications or pyschological defences are essential to its survival through childhood, they inevitably distort or compromise its life as an adult. It happens then, that the children of evil parents enter adulthood with very significant pyschological disturbances.
We have been working with such victims, often very successfuly, for many years without having to employ the word "evil" . But it is doubtful that some can be wholly healed of their scars from having had to live in close quarters with evil without correctly naming the source of their problems.
To come to terms with evil in ones parentage is perhaps the most difficult and painful pyschological task a human being can be called on to face. Most fail and remain its victims.
Those who succeed in developing the necessary searing vision are those who are able to name it. For to 'come to terms' means to 'arrive at the name'.
As therapists it is our duty what is in our power to assist evil's victims to arrive at the true name of their affliction.
****************************************
That's strong stuff.
His main theory throughout the book is that 'evil' was never recognised as a true human condition, and he belives it should. I agree with him.
He also goes into great detail about what constitutes an 'evil' person. And that's where he gets very interesting.
Nomally we save the title of 'evil' for the cruel murderers, torturers, rapists and abusers of this world. Peck argues, convincingly, that 'evil' goes way beyond that - or should that be - back from that ?
He argues that 'evil' can be as little as parents being ignorant and selfish to a childs needs. They might never harm the child physically, might provide everything the child needs and would unfailingly love the child. But something in the parent prevents them from allowing the child to flourish and develop properly.
It isn't 'evil' with malice - just ignorance of some kind.
It's a difficult - uncomfortable - read, but interesting.
Dave
not once has the word spirit or spirituality been mentioned here. what good is faith without it?
i believe evilness and the potential for it lives in all of us. its up to us to choose which path we take regardless of what has happened to us in the past. how wonderful it is that some can react with such anger toward that evil done to them in the name of religion or positions of authority. but what then? stay stuck in anger or rage?
I would close with these words but i don't know all the words to it..................
can someone (hint hint mo_healing or the other poets among us here) please post the words to the song "the rose" as sung by bette midler in the movie of the same name?
jer
i believe evilness and the potential for it lives in all of us. its up to us to choose which path we take regardless of what has happened to us in the past. how wonderful it is that some can react with such anger toward that evil done to them in the name of religion or positions of authority. but what then? stay stuck in anger or rage?
I would close with these words but i don't know all the words to it..................
can someone (hint hint mo_healing or the other poets among us here) please post the words to the song "the rose" as sung by bette midler in the movie of the same name?
jer
Jer
The anger that RJD felt right at the start of this post about a TV show, and the attitudes expressed there, will always come back and bite us. And rightly so.
But if we're not overloaded with the 'baggage' of our old anger then we'll deal with new angers as they come.
Forgive me for quoting again - but I like this by the French guy Jean Paul Sartre.
"If you are not already dead, forgive. Rancour is heavy, it is worldly; leave it on earth. Die lightly."
Dave
I agree, we have to move on from our anger somehow, either dispell it, conquer it, give it back to those who gave it to us - whatever we do with it we have to move away from it.
The anger that RJD felt right at the start of this post about a TV show, and the attitudes expressed there, will always come back and bite us. And rightly so.
But if we're not overloaded with the 'baggage' of our old anger then we'll deal with new angers as they come.
Forgive me for quoting again - but I like this by the French guy Jean Paul Sartre.
"If you are not already dead, forgive. Rancour is heavy, it is worldly; leave it on earth. Die lightly."
Dave
andrew-almost52
Registrant
The Rose
Artist: Bette Midler
Words & Lyrics by: Amanda McBroom
Some say love, it is a river that drowns the tender reed.
Some say love, it is a razor that leaves your soul to bleed.
Some say love, it is a hunger, an endless aching need.
I say love, it is a flower, and You its only seed.
It's the heart, afraid of breaking, that never learns to dance.
It's the dream, afraid of waking, that never takes a chance.
It's the one who won't be taken, who cannot seem to give.
And the soul, afraid of dyin', that never learns to live.
When the night has been too lonely,and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes
The Rose.
Artist: Bette Midler
Words & Lyrics by: Amanda McBroom
Some say love, it is a river that drowns the tender reed.
Some say love, it is a razor that leaves your soul to bleed.
Some say love, it is a hunger, an endless aching need.
I say love, it is a flower, and You its only seed.
It's the heart, afraid of breaking, that never learns to dance.
It's the dream, afraid of waking, that never takes a chance.
It's the one who won't be taken, who cannot seem to give.
And the soul, afraid of dyin', that never learns to live.
When the night has been too lonely,and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes
The Rose.
As a 36 year old married white male, I don't think I'm in Better Midler's "target demographic". But the words are telling, and who knows, she probably went through the same stuff we did Jer. I just down load lyrics online, though, I don't have any talent for hearing them. When I was a kid I thought that '70's song "Still the one" was "Steal the worm".
Mo Healing
Mo Healing
Les_angry thanks for your support.
also thank you andrew-almost 52
Thank you Bobthe Dean, In the same spirit I want to say FU Sally Jesse Raphael who
aparently believes from birth on, men are always culpable for all that happens in to us
and the lives we come in contact with.
Thanks back at you too Victor, Ive also been saying. Whew!
Bless you too guy43.
Life is more complicated than what I initially posted. What was not in my opening post
was even good people do bad things. There is a place for anger in the raw and a
place for focused anger that has been reasoned out.. I lnow that everyone is doing
their best and life is overwhelming ...period. The church is more complex than my
knee jerk reaction speading one color over all churches and participants. There are
nuns that really are all about love, even the ones who have expressed their personal
hurt violently onto others. We are all capable of hurting others. Words can hurt too, as we all know.
What I fight are the images of perfection, I guess. Dont look now, but maybe what I fight are images of infallable authority? I resent the power of doctors and nurses as infallableimages. I resent the image of priests and nuns as infallable. I resent the
images of cops as infallable. I resent the images of pillars of society as infallable. I
am especially resentful of the image of the cult of the Madonna otherwise known as
MOTHERHOOD(surprise, surprise). Its always my word against a brick wall of so
called sainthood or doers of good deeds who are unimpeachable. Im also
uncomfortable even wearing a cloak of authority. Do you think I might have unfinished
issues from my adolescent period? Enough sarcasm about myself.
michaelb your anger is righteous, laden with care, support and hope. Because of that
it is filled with love. Thank you for bringing it here. I too have left services where in one sentence it was about God's love for all
and the next sentence was about who the "all" included
Bless you back Mark S
Hope is what I see all through this thread.
mattandrew your final words on one post was:
________________________________________________
For me i think my religion is going to be none right now,
until i can really hammer out this issue.
________________________________________________
My heart skipped a beat and filled with tears of joy.
Your statement said to me that you believe there might be a time in the future when
you might even entertain the idea that some fathers can be loving. Now is not the time
but you have hope. Does this fit with what you were saying mattandrew?
The visual immage you provided for me is one of determination and hope. Im
hammering out issues myself. A piece of this image I share with you is in my choice of
the word tempering in expressing my gratitude to Lloydy at the very beginning.
These are terms used when working with steel. Each of us is recreating ourselves by
rearranging the powerful raw materials, in us, to forge this steel. This healing process
is much like that to me. I feel like I first have to go through the fire.
My struggle is with mother love. Brother love is also contaminated for me and is
related to your experience as I see it mattandrew. My own kind, that was supposed to
show me what being a man was all about, painted a poisoned image. If being a man
is about what he did to me, I didnt want to grow up to be that man.
Determination, hope and love is every where on this thread.
I hesitated to post this anger piece. It was pretty raw in reaction to what I saw on
television, but I knew you guys could relate to it. When I sat down at the computer my
modem for access to the internet was dead and I thought the cosmos were saying
dont do it Bob, but the passion was there. The next day the passion was still there, but
still no modem. I typed it anyway as a way to get rid of the anger and stop carrying
it around. Later my wife found the loose wire. I still held on to this piece and after a
while in the wee hours I released it by posting.
Well what if someone is hurt by it? what if they dont understand? What if it elicits
hate. What if they never let me back here? Then I said to myself, its just the way I feel.
If they cant deal with it, so be it , and I will mourn that loss too. Im not arguing
theology. Im hurting and anger is protecting that hurt.
As I look back, what seems to have happened is that the anger that was expressed, as
in gotten rid of, opened other possibilities. All the responses are dazzling to me.
There is so much heart here. A part of me expected a lot of; how wrong I was, I dont
know what Im are saying, I shouldnt be like that, and when are you going to get over
this. What I really got was a ton of real love shared with one another. WOW!!!!
From a discussion between my wife and myself:
Doubt, and belief that is encased in doctrine, are intellectual concepts or in the
language of the brain. They are more finite in their scope. They are about
being up in the head which is often about defenses.
Hope , faith and charity, confusion, pain and love are the language of the
heart, rather than language of the brain . They keep you educable, or open to
possibilities.
Bless all of you, and I hope this keeps going.
also thank you andrew-almost 52
Thank you Bobthe Dean, In the same spirit I want to say FU Sally Jesse Raphael who
aparently believes from birth on, men are always culpable for all that happens in to us
and the lives we come in contact with.
Thanks back at you too Victor, Ive also been saying. Whew!
Bless you too guy43.
Life is more complicated than what I initially posted. What was not in my opening post
was even good people do bad things. There is a place for anger in the raw and a
place for focused anger that has been reasoned out.. I lnow that everyone is doing
their best and life is overwhelming ...period. The church is more complex than my
knee jerk reaction speading one color over all churches and participants. There are
nuns that really are all about love, even the ones who have expressed their personal
hurt violently onto others. We are all capable of hurting others. Words can hurt too, as we all know.
What I fight are the images of perfection, I guess. Dont look now, but maybe what I fight are images of infallable authority? I resent the power of doctors and nurses as infallableimages. I resent the image of priests and nuns as infallable. I resent the
images of cops as infallable. I resent the images of pillars of society as infallable. I
am especially resentful of the image of the cult of the Madonna otherwise known as
MOTHERHOOD(surprise, surprise). Its always my word against a brick wall of so
called sainthood or doers of good deeds who are unimpeachable. Im also
uncomfortable even wearing a cloak of authority. Do you think I might have unfinished
issues from my adolescent period? Enough sarcasm about myself.
michaelb your anger is righteous, laden with care, support and hope. Because of that
it is filled with love. Thank you for bringing it here. I too have left services where in one sentence it was about God's love for all
and the next sentence was about who the "all" included
Bless you back Mark S
Hope is what I see all through this thread.
mattandrew your final words on one post was:
________________________________________________
For me i think my religion is going to be none right now,
until i can really hammer out this issue.
________________________________________________
My heart skipped a beat and filled with tears of joy.
Your statement said to me that you believe there might be a time in the future when
you might even entertain the idea that some fathers can be loving. Now is not the time
but you have hope. Does this fit with what you were saying mattandrew?
The visual immage you provided for me is one of determination and hope. Im
hammering out issues myself. A piece of this image I share with you is in my choice of
the word tempering in expressing my gratitude to Lloydy at the very beginning.
These are terms used when working with steel. Each of us is recreating ourselves by
rearranging the powerful raw materials, in us, to forge this steel. This healing process
is much like that to me. I feel like I first have to go through the fire.
My struggle is with mother love. Brother love is also contaminated for me and is
related to your experience as I see it mattandrew. My own kind, that was supposed to
show me what being a man was all about, painted a poisoned image. If being a man
is about what he did to me, I didnt want to grow up to be that man.
Determination, hope and love is every where on this thread.
I hesitated to post this anger piece. It was pretty raw in reaction to what I saw on
television, but I knew you guys could relate to it. When I sat down at the computer my
modem for access to the internet was dead and I thought the cosmos were saying
dont do it Bob, but the passion was there. The next day the passion was still there, but
still no modem. I typed it anyway as a way to get rid of the anger and stop carrying
it around. Later my wife found the loose wire. I still held on to this piece and after a
while in the wee hours I released it by posting.
Well what if someone is hurt by it? what if they dont understand? What if it elicits
hate. What if they never let me back here? Then I said to myself, its just the way I feel.
If they cant deal with it, so be it , and I will mourn that loss too. Im not arguing
theology. Im hurting and anger is protecting that hurt.
As I look back, what seems to have happened is that the anger that was expressed, as
in gotten rid of, opened other possibilities. All the responses are dazzling to me.
There is so much heart here. A part of me expected a lot of; how wrong I was, I dont
know what Im are saying, I shouldnt be like that, and when are you going to get over
this. What I really got was a ton of real love shared with one another. WOW!!!!
From a discussion between my wife and myself:
Doubt, and belief that is encased in doctrine, are intellectual concepts or in the
language of the brain. They are more finite in their scope. They are about
being up in the head which is often about defenses.
Hope , faith and charity, confusion, pain and love are the language of the
heart, rather than language of the brain . They keep you educable, or open to
possibilities.
Bless all of you, and I hope this keeps going.
RJD
we've had all of that here, and more.
I for one started with 'confusion' when I saw the origional post, I moved on to 'hope' - read the first few replies and had a sudden rush of 'faith'
The 'charity' is everyone accepting each others point of view, no matter how much 'pain' it might cause.
That just leaves 'love' - and there's been a load of that as well !
Dave
Well.......
we've had all of that here, and more.
I for one started with 'confusion' when I saw the origional post, I moved on to 'hope' - read the first few replies and had a sudden rush of 'faith'
The 'charity' is everyone accepting each others point of view, no matter how much 'pain' it might cause.
That just leaves 'love' - and there's been a load of that as well !
Dave
Maybe on the Music Forum it would be fun to share some of the lyrics we heard wrong in funny ways. 
RJD:
Little brother
, this thread is so much of what MS & surviving & recovery & support are all about!
We can't mention every aspect of every thing we bring up every time we post. Forget the lack of time, energy & necessity to do so; we probably haven't even thot of & can't comprehend certain aspects until we start with something & just post!
I could see how your ideas, feelings, etc seemed to change each time you posted as the thread progressed and more & more people responded to you and to others. It's great when this happens, and it was great to see it happening with you.
It was my privilege to follow with you in your struggles, your "growing pains," in this thread; especially with "images of perfection," and particularly "the cult of the Madonna" aka motherhood--those, I really relate to!
Thanks for having the courage to start a thread so powerful & so real, a thread that has really shown some of the best of MS!
Blessings my brother
Victor
Little brother
, this thread is so much of what MS & surviving & recovery & support are all about! We can't mention every aspect of every thing we bring up every time we post. Forget the lack of time, energy & necessity to do so; we probably haven't even thot of & can't comprehend certain aspects until we start with something & just post!
I could see how your ideas, feelings, etc seemed to change each time you posted as the thread progressed and more & more people responded to you and to others. It's great when this happens, and it was great to see it happening with you.
It was my privilege to follow with you in your struggles, your "growing pains," in this thread; especially with "images of perfection," and particularly "the cult of the Madonna" aka motherhood--those, I really relate to!
Thanks for having the courage to start a thread so powerful & so real, a thread that has really shown some of the best of MS!
Blessings my brother
Victor
andrew-almost52
Registrant
Amen to Victor's words!