The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING

[RJD]

Im furious! I could spit bile Im so angry! Where do they get off telling a survivor to forgive and thumping the Bible to do it. I dont want to be told to forgive by an actor who is condescending to me and using biblical quotes to prove he is right in a so-called intimate moment.. He says something about God, not man, is what the faith is about. Well no shit Shakespeare. What I heard him say is that survivors should back off and just forgive. What a bunch of religious/corporate/political crap. Survivors dont need to be told to forgive before any accountability has been established. Im still waiting to see some true contrition, and it hasnt happened even yet. They are fuckin clueless. Look at church history, talk about ethnic cleansing and genocide and callous disregard for human life. They wrote the book that is followed by some fundamentalists today. This church has been about oppression masked as love. When I was in high school I saw a nun grab a boy, not older then 10, by the hair and slam him against the wall so hard he bounced off the wall and continued to fall down two flights of stairs. I saw another nun with a look of disgust and shock when she was suddenly not getting resistance as she was shaking my classmates head by his hair. She was left still holding a clump of his hair in her fist. They would sometimes say we will someday look back on these times as the best times of our lives. It doesnt take much of a crap detector here. They got away with that kind of crap all the time. The boys must have been doing something wrong is the answer we would have gotten if we complained. What it was doing was teaching one-upmanship in terms of disrespect. I have no use for any organized religion. The messages were do as I say not as I do.

This period is about grief for survivors. Anger is a stage of grief. Before I moved on, a righteous anger is what I needed. I need to hold my perps accountable for this pain that lasts a life time. Healing does not make the hurt go away, it just hurts a little less as time goes on, but it still H-U-R-T-S and it was a life crippling event that was hell working to feel recovered. If I want to be angry at a God, I have every right to be. Its called G-R-I-E-F you plastic Hollywood assholes!!!!!! This God shit is pissing me off. I have done some really beautiful healing work without God being in my recovery vocabulary. Put it in your plastic incense burner and shove it. I dont need any
joy-aholics telling me to look at the bright side. Sonething I said a long time ago was,if this jesus were in my family he would have fucked me too. Dont even say "he cried with me." That just makes me want to beat the crap out of someone.

The Church should have been the leader in human understanding eons ago, even before Freud but instead, as usual, it it has fought science all the way or anything that might cause a slip in its grip. This is not the first time it has become complicit in history.

 

[Lloydy]

To RJD - AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO READS THIS.

I have decided to leave this on the forum and unedited for now. I wont even lock the post for now.

I realise that some people might well be upset, but please don't let it become a flaming session if at all possible.

My view is it's an expression of RJD's anger, and based on the good supportive, and thoughtful, posts he usually writes I hope this is a vent - not at individuals here.

Before I decided to do this I read most of his other posts, and I'll quote from two of the posts RJD has written on the 'Forgiveness' topic.

Then I read somewhere that in order to be able to let something go, you first have to have it in your posession. = So if it is not in your posession you have nothing to let go of. = You have to have anger before you can let go of it. You have reason for your anger so lets look at why it is there. Then you have a choice whether anger is going to rule your life, or are you going to claim your life for yourself, with anger only being a portion of it.

Ive held on to this rage partially because I dont know what life would look like without it. As archnut says, Im dead without it.. It has been a concious part of my recovery to find a respectful place for anger and not have it be a focal point of my life. My anger kept me shut down emotionally (understandably) and numbness substituted for my emotional life. Dont hurt, dont be angry mentras by nature also shut out feelings of joy, grief, nurturing, and being nurtured, and more. I guess I could say that beside my anger, I also stored my pain in my back.

Anger and forgivness are difficult subjects that we all face, and the circumstances of our lives make us reflect them in different ways.
So rather than just lift this post I would much prefer to see it as a way of expressing the anger and frustration that so many of us feel.

Thanks
Dave

 

[RJD]

Thanks for that tempering Dave.

Sometimes art isn't "pretty" either, even though it may be masterful.

Recovery can get downright ugly, and I can see beauty in that.

In no way do I mean any of it as a slam on spirituality. I do mean it as a challange to accountability. If the image of Jesus crying for your pain works for you and is comforting that's wonderful, and I encourage it. It is just not me. It just trips my anger. I do not want to add to anyone's barriers to healing. I'm just speaking my truths.

 

[zadok1]

i believe, so i have my own take on things. Christ warned us that many would come in His name, but that he didnt send them. yes, there have been many evils committed in the name of God and church, but He is not in them. we are to meassure people by thier fruits. if thier fruits are evil, opression or any negative thing, i think it tells a Christian all they need to know. i am sorry church has come to mean such things to you, for i have found strength and comfort there. i cannot imagine healing without believing in a higher purpose and an ultimate justice. it must be hard for you. no wonder you are filled with such anger. i hope you find peace and happiness. it upsets me that these people who are supposed to represent a loving and forgiving God have done these things, and have hardened you so much.

 

[RJD]

I think the hardening is less about me and more to do with the church. To have such anger has to do with having great heart and care. Indifference is about hardening of the heart.
Thank you for making my point so well zadok1 to measure people by their fruits, and I do believe in the spirit of Christianity. It is a wonderous thing, this spirit, that I believe can be found in many religions. I believe the spirit of the law can be far different than the letter of the law.

I have found an immense peace in my heart on my recovery path. What you see above is about feelings. It is the feeling of a wounded heart that cries out for accountability for transgressions by indifferent hearts. They are hearts that continue to hold on to their own indifference.

Zadok1 your words are comforting to me because I know they are from your heart.

I don't think my beliefs are too far out of line from yours. I guess I believe in the "WHAT IFS." What if there was a genuine loving father who really cared. And what if I could learn to accept that love. As a loving father I would just hold my son who was in pain just like I held my daughters. I would accept my daughters verbal expressions of anger as evidence that they really cared about something, and that I needed to listen. If I shut their anger down, they would also have to shut other feelings down, including the freedom to express their love. I really wouldn't be shutting off their anger, it would just shift to a different mode of expression. I would much rather hear their anger verbally then to have them act it out. Because of this, I know a loving father wants to hear my anger. The word God is missing here from what I would expect you would see belongs here. I'm just not there yet. Perhaps I'm still at the bargaining stage of my grief work around these issues. As a loving father (tears are puddling my eyes again) I would think it was just wonderful wherever my children are emotionally, as long as they know they are loved. Feelings need no judgement, they just are. I believe they can be said to be a God given gift that we need to learn their place in our lives. They help us understand the spirit of love.

 

[michaelb]

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU......The "church" has initiated many of human beings worst periods in history....I'm not against religion, if that is what you choose to believe, but organized religion seems to be very lacking for me.

My belief system is really lacking when it comes to religion. I have tried going to church, but it simply hurts too much. I know I was at a wedding a few weeks ago when the priest started talking about God loving all of us...I got up and bolted out of the church and could not go back inside..This is not the first time this has happened to me...I sure as hell do not think God loves me, if he did, how did he allow such horrible things happen to me, why have I been so miserable for so long???????

I think abuse robbed me of the possibility of believing in God...How can i believe in a God that would allow such terrible things to happen to me and to other people?????? If there is a God, he has a very cruel side to him/her.....

michael

 

[andrew-almost52]

RJD ...a tough hitting post. I can understand your rage. It sure does pose a whole bunch of questions about the nature of God and religion. I guess I look at religion & God as being very separate concepts, the former being a human structure, made up of men & women who have the franchise to choose, and sometimes they choose badly, this franchise to choose was God's greatest gift to us, I believe. However, God, I believe is all about spirituality and universal love and values. He/she is what is best about all of us, what we aspire to be, the innate truth that is in us all, what we know in our hearts to be right and just.

I'm not sure we can really ever forgive our perpetrators RJD. I honestly think they are beyond receiving forgiveness because they don't really understand what they did, how it affected us. Oh sure, they might realize that society and the law view their actions as punishable, but they themselves are probably incapable or unwilling to feel our pain. They don't understand it. In their minds, what they did was normal ... not that big a deal. This is how I have come to think of them. I feel sorry for them in a way. So forgiving them would only be useful in helping me, helping me put aside my own anger and get on with my life. Cause.. unless I put aside my own grief and anger...I am being victimized every day. Victimized by my own history. Peace RJD...Andrew

 

[Lloydy]

Andrew

I'm not sure we can really ever forgive our perpetrators RJD. I honestly think they are beyond receiving forgiveness because they don't really understand what they did, how it affected us. Oh sure, they might realize that society and the law view their actions as punishable, but they themselves are probably incapable or unwilling to feel our pain. They don't understand it. In their minds, what they did was normal ... not that big a deal.

Every time I see a documetary on TV, read an eyewitness account of abuse, talk with survivors who have confronted their abusers, this is the response I have come to expect.
They know no different. The reaction is one of dissapointment at getting caught.

Our anger at them is wholly understandable, as is our lack of forgivness.

Dave

 

[The Dean]

Just a couple of thoughts:

Ghandi is supposed to have said something like "I have come to admire Jesus Christ and His teachings. What a pity He has so few true followers."

If I were to look to TV or movies to learn how to be a loving man I would go up to the next beautiful woman I see and say: "Wow, you're beautiful, lets F***, because that is exactly the way relationships are shown on most of TV and movies today.I just have to believe that in reality it must not be that way.

To think that the way some director shows religion is the way it is for all people at all times would be the same kind of thing.

I absolutely HATE the tv show M*A*S*H. In that show the physicians and surgeon did magic every week between their bouts of shenannigans. The only real idiot on the show was the Catholic priest.
FU mr. director.

There is human debris all over the world due to the idiocy of so called men of God. Jesus has every right to be rageing angry at the way we have perverted him and his message. At the same time there are at least a couple of sincere people, and at least a couple dedicated clergy somewhere in the universe.

It certainly is good to express the feelings we have, we just do not need to be blinded by them.

Peace to us all.

Bob

 

[Les_Angry]

I think a lot of people do things totally contrary to the wishes of God in his name. Here are a few:

1. The crusades
2. the 9-11 highjackers
3. the nun in RJD's post
4. the salem witch trials
5. the spanish inquisition
etc.
etc.

I also think about movies like Indiana Jones where he pretty much breaks every one of the ten commandments to get hold of the box that contains them. What an idiot! I don't think God wants you to shhot some guy so you can get the box that holds the tablet that says "thou shalt not kill". Same thing with the third Indiana Jones Movie.

By the same token though:

1. The "son of Sam" serial murderer blamed his dog (who was named Sam).
2. The Manson family blamed the Beatles for writing "helter skelter" which supposedly caused them to kill.
3. The guy who shot president Reagan supposedly did it for Jodie Foster.

I dont blame Sam (the dog) for serial murders, I don't blame the Beatles for the manson family murders, I don't blame Jodie Foster for president Reagan's attack and I don't blame God for stupid things people do and blame on him.

I agree with this statement:

Ghandi is supposed to have said something like "I have come to admire Jesus Christ and His teachings. What a pity He has so few true followers."

Those nuns were not followers of God when they did those things. If you listen to his words he condemns people like that, and people who did stuff like I mentioned above supposedly in his name. I used to blame God for stuff like that, then I read the bible and went to church and listened and found out he doesnt condone any of that stuff.

This is something most people dont do:

Preach the gospel always, if necessary use words.

-St. Francis of Assisi

Most people think that if you go to church and listen or pick up the bible and read, you are going to find all the stupid behaviors of people who claim to follow him I listed above, but you will really find quite the opposite. I was shocked when I actually sat down and read the bible and saw what Jesus said to do after 32 years of watching people who claimed to follow him (and didn't) do the opposite.

Now that I think about it, Jesus himself even talked about the guys who claimed to follow God and didn't. He said something like: "Do as they say, but not as they do."

Can't we all just get along?

I think we can

peace
Mo_Healing (Les_Angry)

 

[RJD]

I agree with you Dave and Andrew when you wrote

"I'm not sure we can really ever forgive our perpetrators RJD. I honestly think they are
beyond receiving forgiveness because they don't really understand what they did, how itaffected us. Oh sure, they might realize that society and the law view their actions as punishable, but they themselves are probably incapable or unwilling to feel our pain. They don't understand it. In their minds, what they did was normal ... not that big a deal.

"Every time I see a documetary on TV, read an eyewitness account of abuse, talk with survivors who have confronted their abusers, this is the response I have come to expect.
They know no different. The reaction is one of dissapointment at getting caught."

To me this the whole point of holding perpetrators accountable. Part of why they dont
get it is because they bought the lies of their own perpetrator(s)/ repressors. (It doesnt
have to be only overt SA here as I see it.) It is confusing to them that they should be
held accountable because their own perpetrators got away with it. ( I would wager that
their own perpetrator could not be disagreed with or face their own death as victims
of their perpetrators.) This forces a dilema for them that they will have to face their
own pain and monumental terror or continue to shore up the lies they were taught..
Somewhere deep down inside is the real truth that they felt they had to ignore no
matter what the cost.
Confrontation with too little place to hide from the truth is what is needed. It is even the
most loving thing that can be done for them. This confrontation is not about getting
even, it is about showing what accountability looks like.

I do believe they (the perpetrators and the church)are clueless.

With that accountability they might see the devastation caused by their own
perpetrator, and the perpetuation of this devastation that they continued on to the
lives of those they have victimized. Until they can see this, forgiveness of them is upsurd. Forgiving my own vulnerability is the least and most I can do.

But then again what about, Forgive them, for they know not what they do in terms of the church too. Like with my mother I do not have to be around while they spread their poison on themselves .

I believe that the process of holding perpetrators accountable is also healing for
survivors who have not yet found their voice and even those of us who have. Putting
the issue on the table also reduces at least some of the power of a perpetrator. They
hold all the cards as long as we are keeping the secret.

We all know the power of the
wizard behind the curtain is reduced as long as we declare his sighting.

Putting the issues on
the table also gives us a chance to identify the problem so that something can then be
done about it.

I hope my sentences are not too convoluted to understand. (I will be re-reading it im sure.)

 

[Mark S]

RJD

Your post really hit home with me. Your words so eloquently put. I have been searching for spirituality through-out my recovery.

Whilst I have have said on numerous occassions I wasn't abused by a priest but by another member of society that should be trusted, a male nurse. I have tired the standard religions only to find that I couldn't trust what they were preaching. Knowing there were so many BAD people preaching in the name of God, who could I trust? Who could I let see the real/vulnerable me?

I moved on to Buddhism and found their preaching even more alarming. They constantly run anger workshops on how to let your anger go, how to live a happy life. How anger serves no perpose and if you reach your goal you are assured rebirth in a higher life. Well IF I believed that I would be fine, I would be sure to come back a Buddha. You see and this is where it gets difficult for me and I start crying. I have NEVER been angry at my abuser. I have never been angry at anyone else other than me fullstop. I was angry at me for a long time but my abuser no!!! I have now curtailed the anger towards me, so in a Buddhist eyes I should be so happy. The only problem is I'm desperatly un-happy. I used to be a memeber of a disabilty forum much like this, but if I had a bad day and said so I was told I was whinging, to get on with my life. These are the cards that God dealt us and I should be gratfull. But should I be gratefull? Am I whinging when I say I'm not ok? Why did God see fit to deal this hand of cards to me/us?

I read your posts and the subsequent replies several times and each time my eyes welled up, initially for the distress in your initial post but then in the wonderment that your anger is part of your recovery. And judging from these post you understand that well.

I haven't given up on spirituallity, I will in time try other religions Hinduism and Shiekism are on the list. However I'm not setting myself a target and in the end maybe I follow my own spitiually and call it Markism, though it sounds rather like Marxism.

Thank you again RJD for a thougt provoking post and thanks Dave for having the courage and insight to allow the post to stay.

Mark

 

[Lloydy]

For me my religious upbringing was driven out of me at the time the abuse took place, and I've never gone looking for it again.

My parents were Methodists, regualsr church goers and genuine believers.
I was raised that way and went to Sunday school until I was 11 yo.

Shortly after I went to boarding school and the abuse began. At that school we were marched in along crocodile line the two miles to church every Sunday, no exceptions.
And I can distinctly remember making the concious decision during these services that God didn't apply to me, so I would just sit and stand during the service out of conformity - something I still do at weddings and funerals, politness I suppose.

But it was a sudden, and surprisingly thought out thing for me as an 11yo to do, and I do remember it happening.
Maybe I thought that I was different, special ? That's what they were telling anyway.
Did I also think it was 'sinful'and that I had gone so far adrift I was beyond being a part of religion ?

Whatever the exact thoughts were the result was final, religion means nothing to me now - and it something I have thought about.

I have had a friendship with a Catholic Father, and I've seen my father in law return to the Catholic church and gain huge comfort from them.
And I know many of you here gain from your religion.
So I cant knock it, but neither can I believe in it.

 

[Lloydy]

Matt

" Offend me once, shame on the perp, offend me twice, shame on me & the perp if i know better what this person is doing to me, offend me three times, shame on me and the perp & law enforcement & who ever else might be involved.

That is just the truth........

Mo Healing
It's impossible to disagreew with your points about evil deeds, you're right - it's easy to blame something like a song. Unfortunately this easy blame is pounced on by lawyers and some - what can I call them ? lame brained do-gooders. How often do we have to suffer them offering stuff like that asa 'genuine' reason for evil behaviour.
If you want a good description of evil and evil people read M.Bob Peck's book 'People of the Lie'

They know no different. The reaction is one of dissapointment at getting caught."

I wrote this and afterwards it made me think of a conversation I had with someone who has dealings with SA victims and the police who told me about the case of Jonathan King - the British pop star recently jailed for abusing boys.
This man, jailed with a huge amount of evidence, has shown no remorse at all. Not a thing, all he has done from prison - through his agent - is whine about his lost career.
Most abusers believe they do no wrong, they believe we asked for it.

They are so fundamentally wrong they are beyond help. The only way we get better is by accepting the way we are, just as an alcoholic has to accept they drink too much.
Once we accept we can move on, they don't accept - they remain the same. Dangerous.

Dave

 

[Mark S]

Dave.

I too watched the programme on Janathan King and his partners in his crimes. I found his attitude chilling. Always thinking of his losses without a second thought for his victims. Another remarkable resemblance to this (showbusiness) and religious institutions was the amount of alledged other celebrities who were in the know.

I also watched a recent programme on our BBC2 which followed peodaphiles and tried to get to the route cause of their actions. At first I feared this was going to be sensational journalism but it was far from it, Once again it highlighted just how sick these peolpe are. One man justified his actions of abuseing a multitude of children (both girls and boys) because female circumsision is worse. What planet does he come from. Abuse of anyone by anyone is wrong!!!! I agree people like him will never show remorse and the longer they are safly locked away the better.

I have one query though. My abuser (Male Nurse) risked being caught. He would often leave machines on till the alarm went off. I mean the machines that record heart rate, oxygen saturation etc. I know he involved another member of staff who worked as his look out. (She had befriended me and I only realised her involvement through dreams and therapy) But did he know what he was doing was wrong and wanted to be caught or was he so confident of himself. I feel the later is more likely.

Mark

 

[Wuamei]

Whew!

As I read the posts in this thread over & over, I am thankful that it is here and that it has remained here undisturbed to this point. The words of woe & wonder, anger & awe, in these posts are incredible. Thank you RJD for starting it, Dave for leaving it, and all of you for contributing to it so meaningfully.

I grew up in a very not only atheistic but anti-Christian home in which I was also fiercely abused
thruout childhood. Then at 13 I'm placed in a Baptist children's home & am going to church 3-4 times a week. As soon as I got outta there I got outta church too, until I became a Christian 5 years later.

One of the big ongoing struggles of my faith journey has been in trying to separate Jesus Christ Who Is perfect from the Church His people who are imperfect, then separating that Church from the people who go to church.

The Church is not buildings or an organization or institution, tho these may be part of it. The Church in my belief is the faithful people of God thru faith in Jesus Christ. Everybody who goes to church is not Christian anymore than everyone who goes to watch a Super Bowl is Super Bowl Champs! And even Christians are not perfect--I know I'm not!

None of this of course is any excuse for abusive church organizations, churchgoers, or even professing Christians who go astray from the life & teachings of Jesus Christ; nor is it intended to be.

I full well relate to & empathize with those who have anger & misunderstandings with God, with Jesus Christ, with the Church, with Christians, with churchgoers, with church organizations. I've had more than my share of that anger & misunderstanding, both as an agnostic & as a Christian.

I have more questions than answers, so I offer no answers. I do still have my faith, but I sure don't expect anyone else to have it. We must each come to our own faith, in whoever or whatever or nothing, in our own way, for ourselves. That is the right of each individual that must be respected.

I am grateful for the open sharing & mutual respect being shown in this dialog on such a controversial matter as religion.

I wonder if we would do as well with politics!?...(I know, let's not push our luck!)

Victor

 

[Wuamei]

"As for perps being rehabilitated, that is a joke in itself, any therapist who says a sex offender is rehabilitated and won't ever re-offend is a " QUACK " and i have ocean front property to sell them in iraq."

Matt, you sure do have a way with words. I don't think we can say for sure a sex offender is rehabilitated & won't reoffend any more than we can say, for instance, an alcoholic or drug addict is cured & will never drink or shoot up again.

"Organized religion is a joke, to those who want to bible thump, i have a church in ethiopia to sell them, this way they can preach to the air because all they preach is hot air why not add more to where it belongs."

All I can do, beyond chuckle at this , is agree,
and offer a bit of my vast fortune to the windbags so they can buy that church & go somewhere where they won't do so much damage!

Victor

 

[Wuamei]

"Preach the gospel always, if necessary use words.
-St. Francis of Assisi"

Actions speak louder than words. It's time for people, of all religions or no religions, in fact, to put up or shut up. And that means me!

"Can't we all just get along? I think we can."

Me too, Mo!

Victor

 

[Lloydy]

Mark
what you said about the nurse taking huge risks is interesting.
And I think it shows how close the behaviour is between acting out and abusing another person, to me it does anyway.

For me a huge part of my acting out was the thrill of the risk, the risk of being caught performing sex acts with strangers in public places during the day are enormous. And I'm talking about very public places here.
So the thrill was just huge, enough to make me high in a way no drugs ever did.

I also had a little phrase that ran through my mind more or less constantly from the time of my abuse.
"I do things they don't - I know things they don't"
this was always with me, telling me I was different, telling me I was better and invincible. It reflected the confidence I had that what I was doing was right for me, that I was doing NOTHING wrong.
But I was still believing their lies.

Also to have got caught might have answered my very confused cry for help, possibly I believed that suddenly everyone would understand and feel sorry for me. I don't think it works that way though !

My guess is your nurse was on the same kick, it's a feeling that's hard to beat unfortunately, and one I haven't been able to create any other way.
Not even extreme off roading comes close to giving me the adreniline rush acting out did, maybe the fact that it's a purpose built machine with a big steel cage and all the safety gear takes the risk away. I know that a multiple roll wont hurt me.
Acting out had no safety net.

What your nurse did bordered on stupidity, or even insanity ( in his eyes ) but he thought he could control that risk, and that's where the the core of abuse lies I think.
It's more about the perp's power and control of his situation than about sex.

Dave

 

[zadok1]

There is a time and place to speak and keep silent. I feel that I need to say that God is not in all things. Men have their own will, and are quite capable of doing evil upon evil of their own accord. When bad things happen it is easy to blame a God that has been falsely represented by those who claim to be His teachers and messengers. Here are a few truths about God. There are things He will not, and cannot do. Forced love isnt real. God did not want mindless minions, but a loving, caring family. Love comes from inside each of us, and cant be simply planted there. It is the summation of a whole range of things, and God will not impose His will on those that He gave their own will by design. He wants your love, freely given from the heart.

There are many who by their own will do evil, and God is not in them. They abuse, rape and kill, and God is nowhere around. If you have made a choice to walk through life alone, then why do you ask or expect God to help when the moment of terror comes? If you dont waste a thought on Him or what He wants for you, then where can you fault Him for not running to your side when something goes wrong? He warned over and over that flesh man would come in His name, to fill you with falsehoods and lies. He warned that the church would be polluted by traditions and doctrines, and yet we are too lazy to even open the letter He wrote to find out what He says. We rely on the false teachers that He warned us about to teach us what is written, and they use it to fill us with platitudes and lies.

Lucifer was Gods high priest, and a favorite. Yet, God would not force Lucifer to love and follow Him. He will not force Manson to love, or Hitler, or even me. Evil things happen for a whole range of reasons, some with heavenly reasons, but most are simply man being man. What about the abuse that happened to you? What came of it? Did it forever drive you away from God? Maybe, the abuser served a higher purpose, not a good one, but a higher one. In a hard moment, did you fail the test? How would you like for wife to run away and leave you at the first sign of trouble? You break a plate doing dishes, and she runs for her mothers and never talks to you again. No, you expect your wife and children to be there through thick and thin. That is what love is about, but it is a two way street, you have to give to get.

The world is cursed because we endure and cherish evil and hate, not because God does. He tried to lead a people, standing right in front of them, and they failed time and again. Men will be men, no matter what He tries, so now we are allowed to be men, and are allowed to choose what we will do. Before you blow off what is there, you owe it to yourself to look and find what He is about. Dont rely on men, but on God to show you what is there for you. I am not one to say such things, but I was pained by what men have done to you all. It grieves me to see the despair and pain, especially when I have come to know what is there for everyone. Perhaps, I shouldnt post this, but I have to say what I feel.