The complexity of forgiveness

The complexity of forgiveness
blacken

blacken

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Staff member
I looked for but couldn't find a posting on forgiveness, so I started this one.

There May Be Some TRIGGERS...

This topic developed from a resent chat conversation. And I felt the varying opinions were argued well, so I thought it should be brought up here. Not all sides are described here, please add your own.

The definition I looked up for the word forgiveness is: To stop feeling anger or resentment towards someone for an offence or mistake.
This is a little different from my understanding of the word: Not allowing an offence to negatively impact your relationship with the offending person. (Provided the offence did not continue) Which is related to the old saying, "Cheat me once shame on you, cheat me twice shame on me".
Having the latter idea of forgiveness, I may have re-acted a bit to strong to the idea of 'feeling sorry for my Perpetrators suffering'.

And, I don't currently see how forgiveness by either definition is going to do me Any good.
My anger towards my Perp no longer rules me.

I just may be incapable of grasping this concept, or I'm just not to that point in my own healing to be able to fathom it.

I see my left-over anger towards my Perp as a good thing. This 'unforgiveness' keeps me motivated to change & grow. It helps to keep me a strong advocate for my clients, & myself.
Forgiveness is more of a feeling, than an act.

I, personally, have a hard time devoting any energy into feeling sorry for my Perp. Ya, He may have been abused as a boy himself, but he choose to abuse me. The same man that went to church, took communion, and shook hands with his neighbors saying 'peace be with you' just an hour after having sex with his young son.
I really don't see what there is too forgive.

If you have been able to forgive your Perp(s) & it has helped you, More Power To You, I am glad it helped you, really. But, it isn't for me...
 
We know that anger held within the spirit has a degenerative effect on both the body and the mind. That is not a religious theory. It is a scientific fact. We forgive in order to release the poison from our souls. But we are not required to socialize with those we have forgiven.

My personal spiritual beliefs do not require me to forgive. Rage and hatred are acceptable and natural feelings. They have their proper place. It is a personal choice to forgive so that the mind can heal or fester and seek revenge. The question is: Do you care more about your own health or the suffering of your offenders? When we have come to the point that we cannot exact any meaningful revenge upon our perps, it is only reasonable to forgive them, and doing so set ourselves free from the final effects of their abuse.

Aden
 
Possible Triggers****

Blacken,

Thanks for bringing this up.

I have spent a good portion of my time trying to deal with this very issue.

From my own dealings with my faith, I have been shown how Jesus used this word when giving us this concept. From my understanding, the word was derived from a financial term used during His time, meaning that the indebtness somebody has, you hold them no longer to (ie. you rip up the promisary note). You choose to no longer claim what they owe you.

With that said, I have encountered many who try to equate forgiveness to trusting. Nothing could be further from the truth. Also that forgiveness is unconditional, which is also incorrect. God has conditions we must follow in order to RECEIVE His forgiveness, but we must meet those conditions before our heart can ACCEPT it (confession and repentance). Many Christians love to overlook those conditions, and make us feel as if we truly aren't forgiving.

When I was working through my co-dependency issues, I discovered it is best to let those who harm us, not know if we have forgiven them, so they would eventually come to their senses of the harm they have done, and repent, FOR THEIR SAKE . I can forgive them in my heart, but not let them know immediately, FOR MY SAKE , or peace of mind.

(I forgot to add that forgiveness is a process, that we encounter daily, or more percisely, moment by moment. There are many days when I feel very unforgiving, and that is all part of our healing.)

I hope this helps.

peace,
estuardo
 
I agree, this is really a personal decision. For me, it's an issue I'm still wrestling with.

I have not forgiven the perp who abused me. And I still feel a lot of anger toward him. It wells up from time to time and really is destructive to me. As long as I harbor that anger, I am still letting him affect me and still giving him power over me. Yet I really don't want to forgive him.

The question is can I get rid of the anger without forgiveness, or do the two have to go together?
 
No forgiveness from me. Letting go? Yes. Moving on? Yes. For me, holding on to the anger or not feeling able to let it go, would be a continuation of what they did to me.
 
I recently wrote & signed a 15 page statement of complaint against the pervert that abused me. He has denied everything - how can I forgive him if he says he didn't do anything - that means he has nothing to forgive???

Sorry but he does not deserve forgiveness.... I think he has to confess his sins first - even then he can rot in his own hell.

* I am not religious, but I do have Christian Attitudes towards other human beings (with specific exceptions).

Best wishes ...Rik
 
Anger, forgiveness. How can we ever forgive? Something that was so vile, and bestowed on one so innocent and young.

Bestial acts on young kids, disturbing our every thought, interfering with everything we touch or do!

I forgave, I had to, I was only about 12yo, when I forgave, my religion taught me this. It was hard to do it, but it was the only thing I could think of without it turning me insane.

I had built up so much anger and hate for the perp, but I knew I could not recognise him, due to the fear he instilled into me, that I had to forgive, and move on.

I forgave, after thinking, hey, I am going to explode with anger and rage, so I forgave.

I see anger and rage as something very corrosive to the mind, it turned to mental breakdown at 12, so I thought,the only way was to forgive, and lessen the burden.

Is it not that we all handle things differently? If I remember rightly, I was only a baby when it happened, a little boy, who was a dreamer, a lot younger than my years would suggest. I sure couldn't handle these things happening.

I suppose years down the line of blame and guilt, shame, degradation and a million other emotions, I thought? Hey, I hope you are wallowing in your own shit. I hope you are looking over your shoulder, everywhere you go, waiting for the tap on the shoulder, that says, I've found you.

Remember me? The kid you fucked up, now it's payback time. I never got to do it, but I am sure they live with the constant fear of that tap.

I just hope it gets to eat at them a lot harder than it eats at any one of us.

God says, anyone who so much as touches a child for their own pleasure of lust, shall carry a millstone around their necks for all eternity.

God also gives us the strength to survive, even when we cannot see how it can ever be. We carry the millstone, but it is only for this life. The burden gets lighter as we break down the boundaries of hurt and guilt we carry for so long.

Forgiveness is the only way for me. It lightened the load, when it crushed me almost out of life.

I also agree, it is a very complex issue, and it affects each of us differently, as we see our child logic totally distorted in an abuse situation.

We can never understand why? Those we expect to nurture and protect us from hurt can do these things, child logic can never understand this.

Why? Because a child will normally give unconditional love to anyone who will take it in. The young of the flock, who look for love and acceptance into a social group of people meant and expected to protect it from danger!

No wonder it is so complex an issue,

ste
 
Blacken
you took the words right out of my mouth. I can't forgive, but I refuse to be consumed by hatred.

My anger towards my Perp no longer rules me.
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That will never happen for me again, I want to use that energy for me, not waste it on them.

Dave
 
For me the concept is irrelevant at the moment, it does not make any sense to me outside of a religious context.

I hope to be less angry than I am now for my own sake. I am trying to express the anger appropriately without hurting anyone including myself.

I am interested in understanding logically how the perps could do what they did as I need to make sense of this for myself.

I am not interested in revenge though I do have vengeful feelings.

Rustam.
 
Rustam
I don't know if you meant to use the word "how" in this sentence ?

I am interested in understanding logically how the perps could do what they did as I need to make sense of this for myself.
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If you made the choice to use "how" instead of "why" then good for you!

I think it's an important difference.
"Why" is like putting smoke in a box, the smoke ain't going in there! and I don't think we're ever likely to understand "why" - my view is that most abusers don't understand either.

"How they could do what they did" does however NEED to be understood.
Most therapists will ask us to remember way back before the abuse started, and when mine did I wondered what the hell he was on about.
But by by going back I learned about young David, the way he was raised and the influences that shaped the 11yo who got abused.
By doing that I then realised that it WAS abuse, and that it WASN'T my fault.

I recognised that my upbringing had created a vulnerable boy who was an easy target for the abusers.

That's "how" it happened, and that's why the "How" question is so important.

Dave
 
I have thought about forgiveness a lot. I have tried often to forgive many different people. I have found that in some cases, even when I had thought that I had forgiven someone completely for years, my digging into things for a greater understanding (being here for example), brings new things to the surface which I was unaware of, and I end up right back at the beginning having to start over trying to forgive them from a whole new angle. I have forgiven people for countless number of things. Usually I am able to do so based on the idea that they didn't know any better, etc. Forgiveness varies. I have found out that forgiveness isn't what anyone thinks it is. At times, forgiveness can even be a form of suppression, denial, or dissociation. I have come to believe that forgiveness is not actually possible without confrontation. I do not think that forgiveness is actually possible without the other person showing remorse for their actions. I have forgiven many people before, the ones that never show any remorse, always come back to bite me in the @$$ in one way or another. The others, it appears to be permanent and true forgiveness.

So, since my perp has never shown an ounce of remorse for how I was treated, no, I do not think that I will ever have forgiveness for them until they do.

The perp had absolutely no decency to me, or respect for me, at all, whatsoever. I have had some revenge. I may yet take more revenge (legally, as I said that I would from the beginning. I can do a LOT within the confines of the law). I may yet have some justice too. I have no sympathy or empathy for the perp. Perps are wild rabid animals. Mine not only has no remorse, but last I knew, also has convinced themself that they did nothing wrong. I have a respect for all life that goes far beyond anything that the perp could understand. The only things that I have any respect left for in my perp is their right to breathe. I have no forgiveness until the perp shows true remorse. I have no empathy until the perp shows true remorse. The perp acted like a rabid animal, I will act like someone who is protecting their pets, livestock, neighbors, or family, from that rabid animal until it is caged.
 
When I really think about this one, it has taken me 35 years to really forgive myself for allowing it to happen!

If it now eats him for the next 35 years....tough!!!!
 
Hi Blacken

Thanks for the topic.

The definition I looked up for the word forgiveness is: To stop feeling anger or resentment towards someone for an offence or mistake.
Click to expand...
As CSA is neither an offence nor a mistake but a serious crime it rules out forgiveness for my part. I only forgive myself for the self-harming and self-hating I have inflicted on myself as a result of CSA.

If I didn't feel anger or resentment toward the people who abused me it would imply there's something wrong with my emotional make up. So I am pretty "normal" emotionally, I just need to express the anger and resentment rather than turn it inward or keep it locked inside me. Being part of this site I get the opportunity to speak out these feelings.

People who commit crimes are meant to be punished by law, not forgiven.

Also perps convince themselves that what they do is love, not abuse. So there's no place for forgiveness.

That's my rant for today!!!
Heart
 
Hey All,

Yup, you can't forgive until you are ready, but it does free your heart from hate. It doesn't mean you would let yourself be taken advantage of again, or you like the person that hurt you, just that... I don't know... you feel more free.

I found this article online that is pertinent here from a Buddhist perspective, but some of the most important lines I found were:

We don't ever have to forgive. It is a choice that we make. We do not have to forgive anybody before we are ready to do so We must be honest with ourselves and examine if we are reaping pleasure and benefits from our resentments. This may translate as the freedom from guilt and responsibility we sometimes get by blaming others instead of accepting the reality of the situation. Sometimes resentment may give our lives a heightened sense of excitement or even an excuse to be more abusive to others, to be violent, or to behave irrationally.
Forgiveness is not condoning unacceptable behavior or making excuses for others. It means that we let go of the obsession we have with wrongs committed against us and refuse to let that person hurt us anymore. In forgiveness we neither pretend the past did not happen nor forget the past. We simply choose to live in the present, remembering some things so that we don't hurt ourselves again. Put in another way: we remember without hate.
Click to expand...
Read the article in its entirety here
 
I spent a lot of time wrestling witht he concept of forgiveness. Eventually I left the church because I felt like I kept getting beaten up for not being good enough to forgive. It felt like a move to keep me silent and maintain the status quo.

Years later, I realized that somewhere along the way I had started to pay attention to taking care of me. Somehow my focus shifted away from him, and eventually I found that I reached a place where I could genuinely say I hope he finds healing. Is that forgiveness? If so, then I guess I'm there. I quit trying to work out the subtleties because it was taking up too much space in my heart and felt like a roadblock to moving on.

The truth is that a big part of why I hope my perp finds healing is because I want the violence to stop. As long as he's not dealing with his junk there's always the potential for more violence.

I've known anger and I've known rage -- I give thanks for them both. They were the only way I knew I was alive for awhile.

But I'm ready for a more peaceful world. I'm exhausted with violence, and now that I've owned my capacity for it, I'm honestly a little bored with it.

I wish I could claim some lofty spiritual quest that led me to forgive, but I've got nothing that dramatic. I got tired and bored, so I figured I'd give it a go trying to hold myself, my perp, and all of creation more gently. I don't always do it well, but I sure have found a lot more energy to spend on things I enjoy thinking about alot more than him.

All that said, nobody has the right to take your rage from you. Being coerced into forgiveness is just continuing the violent cycle. Do what you need to do to keep your head above water -- and know that no strategy works forever.

Like my grandmother in regards to her sofa, we continue to recover.

Peace,
Brian
 
Hi all, this is a very interesting topic. I have to agree with what MikeNY said on the topic. I do not think that forgiveness is actually possible without the other person showing remorse for their actions.

There are certain instances where it would be inappropriate to forgive, and CSA is in my oppinion one of them, especially when there was confrontation or any genuine remorse shown by the perp.
I also agree with what MikeNY said here: I have no forgiveness until the perp shows true remorse. I have no empathy until the perp shows true remorse. The perp acted like a rabid animal, I will act like someone who is protecting their pets, livestock, neighbors, or family, from that rabid animal until it is caged.

Its interesting that in the Mosaic law that God gave to ancient isreal. When it was discovered and established that a child was sexually abused, they were as a community to take the perp and stone him/her to death. They were to "clear away what was bad from their midst"
Although, as a Christian I recognize that we are no longer under the old law, but God's feelings on the matter have not changed one bit and the principal I feel still applies.

I don't mean to offend anyone by this reigious view, but I think this point is very relevant.
 
My understanding of forgiveness is that it is predicated upon a request for forgiveness. That's rare. Hence, my anger stays with me.
 
Hi Blacken, forgiveness that has been on my mind off and on for the last three years. Mind you this is not something that happen to me, but one of my best friends. Let me give some background. Between first grade and highschool I moved at least 14 times, For high school I stayed at my dad's house. In high school I had three close friends, Ricky, Jimmy, and Harley, I lost track of the first two through the years. Both me and Harley went into the navy, me to subs and Harley to flattops, we met up once in shore duty for a month, we had some good times. The next time I saw Harley was at my father's funeral. We talked, turned out even though he had made chief he had got out of the navy. A student had accused him of messing with him. He said he didn't do it, but he had had enough of the navy and resigned. He was my friend I believed him. When I lost my house I came back to Texas. I live in Krum which is right outside Denton where my friend lives, we crossed paths at the albertson grocery store, we started to renew our friendship. I got up the courage to tell him that I had been raped as a kid.
About two weeks later, I decided to lookup sex offenders of Denton just to see how many. I was shocked to find my friends picture on the page. This is my friend's name, HARLEY ARVID DOWNEY. You can see him about half way down the page. https://www.cityofdenton.com/pages/policerso76201.cfm
About a week later I came across him at Albertsons again, I went up to him, I was very nervous, we did not say much, he became nervous, he had to go. That was three years ago I have not seen or heard from my friend sense. I would like to find out more about the case, but do not know how. I don't know what to do.
 
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