Survivors: What We Would Like You to Know About Us.

Survivors: What We Would Like You to Know About Us.
I had a private conversation with one of the members here in F&F the other day and I think a portion of it may fit here. Please, no one, take this as pointed to any one of you. It's just food for thought for you who are needing, wanting, longing to be of assistance to your husband, partner, or boyfriend.
Your desire and willingness to help your partner is laudable. If you can be a support and confidant for him that may be a good thing. I would really urge you to talk with the therapist concerning what your role should be. Once he begins to get seriously into the therapy, he may not want to share some of the, pardon my language, shit with you. It may be enough for him to just get support without having to share the details. He may want you to be his woman, and not share in his therapy other than be his source of comfort when he can't take it anymore.

I guess what I'm saying is that for you to be too closely involved with what's going on may very well bring about unwanted associations for him, ie you equal having to think and talk about the bad stuff and he doesn't want to do that. That's the way many of us men think. I know you're not necessarily wanting or planning to be heavily involved, but I just want to caution you that there may come a time once he's in therapy that he'll pretty much want to keep his life with you somewhat separate from his life in therapy. I don't know that will be a fact, but it's a possibility. Again, try to work closely with the therapist on what your role needs to be.
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Just thought I'd throw that into the mix of this conversation since the original point of the thread seems to have drifted in this direction.

Lots of love,

John
 
sigh....

was simply trying not to be so long-winded as usual....

dwayne, i didn't think it WAS pointed at me; no need to apologize...

i thought (and still do) it was a very good point you made and wanted you to know i, for one, was listening (reading). that's all.

your words are welcome, your advice valuable, priceless even.

it's also helpful for me because much of the communication between my bf and me is written; many times he's totally misconstrued something i wrote - before i was on this board i couldn't ever understand how or why - but just as survivors sometimes misconstrue our verbal words or actions, it seems written ones can be also.

see there, now i've gotten all long-winded again :rolleyes:

indy
 
Indy,

I, for one, would rather have a manifesto if it tells me exactly what you are feeling and thinking.

In situations like this, don't let your words be ambiguous: be direct, precise in your verbage, and say exactly what you mean. Leave as little room for interpretation as possible, because if you are not clear you can be guaranteed that he will take what ever you have to say in a negative way. That's just how we survivors are, at least to start with.

This puts an incredible burden on you, but it's the only way I can think of to aid your communications.

Take care,
Dwayne
 
Wow, this has become an interesting thread!


I think the subject of what the survivor may need, and what the survivor's partner may need is a truly complex and fascinating subject....


I totally see what you're saying here,

"belittling us for not seeking help on your timetable, determining what we need to do to recover, being outright afraid of telling anyone else and demanding we disclose to someone, and so on. "


Although, I don't read what Trish wrote as undermining that issue in any way....


For example, for my own personal situation, it became very necessary that my bf seek some proffessional guidance and I did have to point him (gently) in that direction. The reason for this, is because we have small children and a family unit to look after. With this in mind, there was no choice for me, other than to push in the way I did. If the roles were reversed, I would sincerely hope he would do the same.


Also, as a partner(especially in a family situation), when there has been infidelity/acting out/sexual identity issues, if your survivor partner ceases to communicate, it can become virtually impossible not to express your own concern/anxiety and needs for there to be more talking....I think we need to be careful not to generalise about these things and I agree with Trish about the fact there ARE expectations on both sides in a relationship. What each person does about those expectations dictates the survival/health of the relationship. If I only viewed my bf as an 'invalid', I would be continuing to accept/enable things, which might otherwise have potential to change and grow.


While there is great neccessity for the partner to read/learn in order to gain knowledge/empathy/understanding, we as partners have to be careful not to put ALL the focus on that. Because, a relationship can only ever become healthy, if it's a two way thing.

For example, when my bf does x,y,z, if I only look at it from his side, thinking, "he can't help it though" and feeling sympathy/sorry for him, and never letting him know how hard it is/how hurt i feel. If we all did that, we'd never learn about how the things we do/don't do affect the people we love. That might sound harsh, but it works both ways too.....

Understanding can facilitate more productive ways to communicate, but shouldn't mean that we choose to out our own feelings second. The other negative result of that would be, if the partner also has (unrealised)problems/dysfuntions/abuse in their past(which isn't that unlikely), but they only ever consider their survivor's feelings, then they won't be sorting out their own issues. Which again means that the relationship can't improve.

I suppose all of this means that there'll be mistakes on both sides. As partners, we can't possibly always get it right. Especially those of us who have our own dysfunctions.

I think the key thing to remember is that neither person can know/understand what the other is experiencing unless both people learn to express those feelings. And also, learning to recogninse when either person is enmeshing. Issues from the past of hatred/anger/being unfairly treated need to be seperated from the present. A personal example of this from my own perspective, is the many occassions(some only recently felt/realised) I have felt powerless/uinfairly treated in situations with my bf. I now realise that the WAY I EXPERIENCED them was a childlike emotion and brought with it childlike reactions/responses. Yes, he may have been being unreasonable, but did I effectively deal with that from a mature perspective? No, I did not. Do I have to take responsibilty for that? Yes I do. I am not beating myself up about this, or being hard on myself, just looking at the facts. He IS NOT my abuser any more than I have ever been his. Anything either of us have ever done which may have conjured up the same feelings for us, is NOT OUR FAULT. Because we are grown adults now. Indeed it's not fair that either of us haven't had the tools to effectively look after ourselves, but I wouldn't want my bf to feel guilty for a thing which was never his fault, or for him to be blaming me for a thing which was never my fault. Should I expect him to feel sorry for me cause there are occassions I have had trouble defending myself emotionally, or any other childlike related difficulty? No, I don't want him to feel sorry for me, or I for him. Empathy/understanding, yes, but if I never know the EFFECTS/IMPACT these things have on him(and vice-versa), there would never be enough incentive for me to look further than my own experience/feelings.

You know what? As a survivor of a kind, I am absolutly sick of people taking sympathy/feeling sorry/assuming I can't do things properly. I realise this has been the pattern of my life and something I have accepted, welcomed even. I see that I have stood by and allowed myself to be abused by people(nothing too terrible!). I realise it's not my fault and I don't put myself down for it either, but I do have to accept personal responsibilty for it.


So, BOTH people's expectations/feelings do count hugely I believe.

Sorry if that got a bit heavy, but it's something I feel strongly about at the moment. I hope I have not said anything that will offend or upset anyone.


peace
Beccy
 
Hopefully a pertinent example of what I mean:

This morning i went past the bin and thought 'that smells, I should remind Elisa not to put food in there, I bet it's meat again, how many times, must I be the parent as well as the survivor, honestly!'...

But, I decided to do the right thing and I put the rubbish bag out in the wheelie bin, came back inside and decided to be extra thoughtful and bent down to spray some stuff in for the smell.

*Crunch*

And there goes my back.

Right now it's been several hours and I'm still sore, I hope it's just a muscle and not another disc.

Now, I can run of scores of injuies, but also I can run off scores of sexual advances I had to endure, and discrimination when I was doing the right thing by working.

All I know for sure is that a lot of things happen to me because of my abuse. I have tremendous body tension, and nothing works (my wife does massage, I have been to chiro's, oteo's, blah blah bloody blah), I behave like a victim. You know why of course, I behave like what I am. I'm a textbook case. Of course for years I pretended i could pull my socks up and be considerate to others, be an adult. Well I have the broken bones and stalkers to prove I tried. I have the no friends and the no job and the no resume to prove I gave it a bloody good shot. And there is so much more to add i would be here all day.

The only time I start to improve is when I stop trying to be like you lot, when I accept myself as a victim. And when I begin to feel right bloody sorry for myself, after a time it passes and I feel better.

I am still learning but I feel that's the whole point. I am learning from scratch. I am undoing, unlearning the attitudes, partly your attitudes, and those of my parents specifically that only served to escalate the damage done to me.

When I was trying so hard to be good and be like my wife, normal, I was completely false. Everything I did was a fraud. Beig a victim, feeling sorry for myself, that's the only real thing I have right now, and I'm starting to feel it's something I'm entitled to. And like I said, i get better when I just let go. I become real because i think I am tesing out behviours and coming out o my shell. otherwise I just retreat into thought as I did as a kid when people talked to me as you partners are, as my wife used to.

And when I retreat I shut down all emotion and I'm part of her game. I play into all her weaknesses and shortcomings and give her all the excuses in the world to not grow up herself. And I think that's what I am pointing out above. It's not the partner that needs to grow and change it's you. You have the capacity, you are fundamentally different. Unless you are a hindu or similar you had total freedom of choice in choosng a partner. Don't try to blame them for your poor choice. To me making demands and being 'reasonable' is just acting out your own resentment.

Believe me, I know a hell of a lot about that, I see it from a skewed angle, granted, because that's my upbrigning in a nutshell, but that doens't necessarily discount my insight.

My parents probably honestly believed they could discipline me out of being a victim. And here I am years later. I t doesn't work, save yourself the effort. Look at what the abuse is hghlighting in you, at what your behaviours are like beccy mentioned above. Force, prompt, prod all you like, but don't please don't encourage me to use analogies of obvious physical disability, because to me it just seems like stating the obvious.

Self help is a philosphy like wealth creation or 'be yourelf' trumpeted to a naive majority because it sells books. People who can apply such lame ideals don't need them: that's why they work. I never set out to disprove them, they managed to do that for themselves over my life so far. We survivors are scientists, we have to falsify and test everything before we trust it because we can't rely on our emotions to survive, we dare not. a lot of what you lot say I'm sure is basically out of love, but that's not a relevent factor that is considered by my survivor brain. I don't understand love.

But because, in my opinion, normal people can trust their emotions, they simply don't have to falsify their beleifs and subject them to scientific scruntiny, because they trust themselves. i can't for example allow myself the indulgence of religion, others can, but it doesn't stand up to my scrutiny. Nor does politics, nor do many things.

At about 11 I decided human realtionships and romance and all that was drivel and I wouldn't have a bar of it. I reasoned my way out of fundamentalist religion and out of right and then left wing politics. What for other people are allowable indulgences are for me obscene. Because i stip it of all feeling. politics and religion are so much feeling, without that what is there? It seems rational but none of it is, but that doesn't matter if it satifies the need for those feelings of belonging and righteousness and love, so on. Take feelings away and.... anyway, I best shut up. This wasn't supposed to be a treatise, just my thoughts. I look forward to your replies.

I'm trying to contrast ideology with practical experience. The ideology of self help with the reality of impairment. Temporary, but still impairment. and an impairment that has it's own rules and will not bend to an ideology, no matter how loving or how forceful.
 
(standing ovation) Wow! I have learned a bunch this evening.. about me and my wife...

Thank you to everyone who contributed!!

(clapping loudly)

"I can see clearly now the rain has gone"
 
The ideology of self help with the reality of impairment. Temporary, but still impairment. and an impairment that has it's own rules and will not bend to an ideology, no matter how loving or how forceful.
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i don't know and won't claim to but in my mind, at least, for some time now i no longer see survivors - male or female - as the same as non-survivors, only damaged.

i don't think it's that simple at all.

i think, and again, this is simply my own opinion backed up by nothing more than conjecture, speculation and a great deal of thinking about it - i honestly think that something biochemical takes place during sexual trauma which actually changes that individual's thinking in a fundamental way.

we know how excretion of hormones can change ways of thinking, too much adrenalin, too much epinephrin, others as well, which create long-term differences in brain patterns, reflexes and ways of processing information.

this is entirely separate from actual physical trauma, of course (broken bones, etc.).

as survivors continue to explore their own feelings and share with us their perceptions of our attitudes and behaviors, it's truly as if we are talking about different ways of thinking altogether. different in the concept that even after healing, the survivor will never process information the way a non-sexually abused individual does. it just isn't going to happen.

with that in mind, for me at least, it gives me a sense of what i'm up against in trying to communicate with my bf, and in trying to understand other survivors in my life, both now and in the future.

i also wonder if healing for the survivor may mean something entirely different than what it may mean for his (or her) partner.

all i can say at this point is to reiterate that we do care, we are trying to understand and most of us will not give up.

all the best,
indy
 
The only time I start to improve is when I stop trying to be like you lot, when I accept myself as a victim. And when I begin to feel right bloody sorry for myself, after a time it passes and I feel better.
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Im so confused by this statement. How does feeling sorry for yourself make you feel better? How does it pass and where do you go from there? Im not being sarcastic, I just really dont understand.

Facts are facts - you were a victim of csa - you have to go through life with that. But not everyone you meet will have such a fact in their background. They are us. We probably dont know about it in the beginning and we fall in love with you. You tell us. Do we stop loving you? Do we say, OK, we made a bad choice, this one is damaged beyond repair and I wont deal with that, see ya? I was in a relationship for 3-1/2 years before I knew. Theres no way I could walk away. In a perfect world, youre already aware of what csa has done to you. How it has skewed your thinking and the way you look at life and you seek help. We stand there with you while you do it. Why, because we love you. Why do we love you, because of what you presented to us BEFORE you told us of the csa. Because you showed us a guy we could love. You were of the equation that created the relationship that exists now. I wont take the blame for that and chalk it up to my poor choice. Our later knowledge of the csa turns things upside down and changes the rules for us! You already knew it. I didnt sign up for a guy with problems like that, I fell in love with a guy who didnt tell me anything about it!

I understand, once I learn, why you didnt tell me and I dont blame you for it. But I need the chance to learn and I have to try to understand. If I dont, then Im a piece of crap who should have said, OK, I made a bad choice, this one is damaged beyond repair and I wont deal with that, see ya. My b/f wants to stay with me, I want to stay with him so I stand by him while he works and I talk to him when he wants to and yes, sometimes I get frustrated and angry and all torn up inside because this is damn hard on me too.

I have a lot of expectations of my b/f. I expect him to do well with his company, its his livelihood; I expect him to treat me well; I expect him to be faithful to me; I expect him to take care of the dog; I expect him to pay his bills; I expect him to be good to our friends and at least decent to strangers; I expect him to get better because the man I know deserves it.

ROCK ON...........Trish
 
Ash,


Did you mean something along the lines of perhaps being kind to yourself/less hard on yourself? Kind of like going easy on yourself sometimes? Accepting certain struggles/difficulties, making some allowances and not punishing yourself for them? If that's what you meant, that does make sense to me. I think it ebs and flows......Don't you think though, that there are times to go easy and times to push yourself? That's what I've found personally.

Following the post by Trish,

I certainly did not know my bf had been CSA when we first met....he didn't tell me about his sister till 7 years later, at the same time as telling me he was worried cause he fancied men and wondered if the two were connected.....when(soon after) I fell pregnant he told me he was worried he might be gay....3 years later, after building tensions, arguments, many difficulties and resulting in daughter showing some behavioural problems, I first went to a homeopath, during which time i rebuilt my own mental health, following that, insisted bf do the same. Finally, after realising many of our problems might be related to the CSA by his sister, I soon after discovered(by snooping around/finding xtra safe condoms & lube) he had gone out with the intention of acting out with total strangers. His idea was truck drivers in service stations. Never mind the shock/infidelity/family situation, I cannot tell you how worried I suddenly felt for the safety of the man I love......after telling him I felt he was still hiding things from me, and I didn't feel I could trust him and that maybe we should just be friends, that was when he told me that that very day, he recovered a memory of possible CSA with a teacher......


Well, I don't need to go into the rest of it all. You get the picture. After all this happened, I recovered a memory of my own, which explained many of my own problems too, so as it turns out, we both have shit to sort out, although mine is very minimal compared to his.


Did I make a mistake in choosing him? That is a question I have recently asked myself. I wonder too if he has asked himself the very same question, because in many many ways, I really don;t feel I've been good for him at all. But I love him, I love him, I love him. I believe in love.

I know that line of thinking which goes, "don't expect this/that from me, I can't give you this/that, it's just the way I am....." Been there, thought that myself many many times, but you know what? I have decided I HAVE to get past that. Get past myself............as me and my bf are communicating more, we learn the truth of how the things we do/don't do hurt each-other. Some things take longer to change than others, and I suppose the test of time will show if we can be happier together.....


I have been through total hell this past year, and 12 years of a totally dysfunctional relationship. I have been hanging on by a thread to my sanity and desperately trying to hold my family together/take care of the kids. The way I see it, mine and my bf's lives have been blighted through no fault of our own, and now we have the chance to make some changes, so we can BOTH be happier and live the life we are truly entitled to live. That certainly means there'll be expectations from me, as I've never been very good at having them before! Before I was confused, tentative, afraid, careful, followed by hysterical and a mess. Oh well, at least that made me laugh!


peace everyone
Beccy
 
Just thought of something else....


I suppose as each partner learns to realise then communicate their expectations/needs, both are given the opportunity to find out if those needs can be met. Then I suppose, if certain expectations can't ever be met, and depending on how fundamental they are to either person, each one has to consider if they can live with that reality. If not, perhaps that's the point when both have to decide if the relationship can continue?


peace
Beccy
 
Unless you are a hindu or similar you had total freedom of choice in choosng a partner. Don't try to blame them for your poor choice. To me making demands and being 'reasonable' is just acting out your own resentment.
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after re-reading this statement, and comments from others, i can't help but wonder if this is part of the "i'm so unlovable so anyone who loves me must be crap* also" attitude... (or *crazy, mixed-up, neurotic, pick your favorite psychosis).

i certainly hope not because one can take that sort of thinking and stick it where the sun won't shine.

and i'm not going to apologize for being blunt; i think a lot of people are trying very hard to understand survivors, as well as survivors themselves; to bare their feelings and the difficulties, sometimes insurmountable, in this regard.

so the last thing anyone needs to be told is there must be something wrong with US because we care about YOU :mad:

indy
 
we just wanna be like everybody else ,but we dont know how
 
Hi Ash,

Originally posted by AshSurvived:
I find myself reading through earlier posts about to erupt with righteous indignation at the audacity of partners who actually sincerely believe they can issue a list of demands. But, thanks to your wise words I've calmed down.
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Well it's always nice to be called wise :)
To be honest with you it makes me more curious than indignant; I just see issuing a list of "I need you to..." as a bad strategy. I mean, demands in most contexts do not make people eager to please you. Most of the time they don't even work.

I have to believe that partners know this from experience. Forget about relationships even-- the above is true for all kinds of human interactions. Children, coworkers, siblings, customer service reps-- the best bet is generally to make an honest, polite request, to provide some motivation for the person to accommodate you, and then to step back and give the other party room to respond.

In my opinion it is RIGHT AT THIS POINT-- the survivor's response-- that things break down. I sometimes see a lack of trust/acceptance in partners where the survivor's actions are concerned and this is where I think your "invalid" comments have merit.

I think some partners cannot or will not separate

1. Needs that the survivor does not understand or know about
2. Needs that the survivor recognizes, but will not meet
3. Needs that the survivor is trying to meet, but can't.

I am using an example that is not an issue in my relationship:

It might be that my partner really does not understand my deep need to have a relationship and home which are relatively calm and free of anger and shouting. But once I express that to him, how much trust/respect am I really giving to him if I continue to act like "maybe he just doesn't GET it?"

And what if he continues to get angry and shout? I think I owe it to both of us to evaluate things correctly. If he is cursing and walking out of the house in a rage, and doesn't apologize or show any effort to use other coping methods, I am TOTALLY stripping him of power to assume that he is just doing the best he can. Do I really believe this guy is that incapable of doing something he wants to do? That he is unable to grow and change? If I really do believe that, maybe there is something abusive in our relationship dynamic. Maybe I get something out of being with a person who has no personal power or ability to do for himself.

Then again, if he does seem to be working on this, but he wakes up late one morning, smashes his shin on the desk and snaps at me when I ask him if he's okay, is it fair of me to react as though he's not trying? Should I punish him and myself by dragging out the whole long list of needs again, and by getting upset at him for other angry incidents in our past, all over again? Maybe in that case I should consider that he IS doing his best, and that I am putting unrealistic expectations on him if I want him to protect me from ever experiencing someone's anger.

And in either case it is totally up to me to decide what level of anger is non-negotiable in my relationship-- not to continue in a relationship that has been shown to be unacceptable to me and then blame the other guy for it. Am I willing to accept life with someone who will NEVER greet me with a smile in the morning, as long as he is cheerful after breakfast? Am I willing to accept the name calling and storming out of the house if things are improving in other areas? etc.
 
I just see issuing a list of "I need you to..." as a bad strategy. I mean, demands in most contexts do not make people eager to please you. Most of the time they don't even work.
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with all due respect, sar, i cannot fathom at all what you are thinking :eek: both in someone stating their needs to another person as well as whether or not it works.

case in point: the ms website clearly states 'guidelines' for posting - these are needs that are meant to keep this site running smoothly and minimize harm to users

every day of our lives we interact in situations where certain needs are expressed and we are expected to follow them if we wish to accomplish whatever it is we are wanting to do at that time - to use a library, we need to return books we borrow, follow the rules, etc. so others might enjoy the same privileges.

in personal relationships, people are often unhappy simply because their biggest failure is NOT expressing their own needs to the other person - this can be in any relationship, friends, social, family, work, academic.

however, in order to express our own needs we first must identify those needs - clearly, succinctly and realistically as is possible between those individuals.

women in society have (almost always) been brought up to put their needs second to those of their male partners, friends, family, virtually every man in their life. to break through this pattern is not easy and yet break through they must in order to find their own fulfillment as individuals. one of the first steps is identifying their own needs. the second step is expressing those needs to their partners, as expectations in the relationship, how he might meet those needs.

how on earth can the survivor-partner ever grapple with the complexities of a relationship - much less be successful at it - if he doesn't even know what's expected of him? :rolleyes:

to tell someone, or worse yet, to be angry, turn away, even cry - and not tell your partner why - ! that's downright as dysfunctional as one can get.

it also seems that disclosure comes about when the survivor is at the point where he wants to express a certain need to his partner/friend/family and is taking steps to do so, however difficult it might be.

i believe if one is interested in an honest relationship one must be forthright about it first, then work on what can and cannot be accomplished second.

if i cannot abide by what's requested of me, then i have a choice to say no. we owe it to our partners to let them know our needs so they can also have that choice. what comes next is between the individuals to work it out from there.

we just wanna be like everybody else ,but we dont know how
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when we express our needs to you, and asking you for what yours are, we are also teaching you how to understand yourself and become whoever it is you want to be. :)

all the best,
indy
 
Hi Indy,

You are not so far off from what I was trying to say. I posted late at night and maybe wasn't as clear as I could have been.

I am not saying there's anything wrong with expressing your personal desires in a relationship. I am a big advocate of identifying and being honest about our personal needs, and of letting people know what we expect from them. I am certainly not saying it's better to be silent and resentful or expect people to guess.

But it is as you say-- expressing your needs is one step in a process... identifying needs, then expressing those needs AND boundaries (not just "I need my partner to speak to me with courtesy" but also the boundary "I will not remain in a room with someone who is yelling"), and then giving the other person room to choose how to act, and then responding to the other person's actions in a way that communicates your boundaries.

I see a lot of folks who just get stuck on expressing the needs and do it over and over instead of moving forward in the process. There is a disconnect between their words and actions that ends up negating some of the message of NEED, and messes up the balance of power.

This is where expressing becomes demanding, and they are different. One is effective, and in my experience, the other is only effective where there is an imbalance of power.
 
I read the replies and I'm so confused. But I'm glad some people had a think and are looking at these issues in their lives. By now I've forgotten all the replies but I pretty much stand by my concept that you get what you pay for.

Righteous indignation is something well bred children probably do best, so I can't relate to it at all. If you picked a partner with no idea of what you were actually picking, that's a reflection on you. And the righteous indignation confirms that to me, lest you should examine your own motives overmuch because you want to insist they are pure. To use another cliche: "birds of a feather...." I'm just stating the obvious, because it's not something everyone seems to factor in to their relationship equations. Maybe it's the mothering conditioning in you, maybe it's the ideological programming from Uni, maybe it's a lot of things, but your surviving partner will pick up on every nuance of your shortcomings before you even know about it. They've got you pegged, labelled and filed away.

I'm trying unsuccessfully to show that a catalyst for change in the survivor is honesty, a bit of good old introspection on the part of the healthy partner, a bit of acceptence of complicity in the relationship and in the furtherence of the abuse. They wouldn't be with you if it wasn't working for them. Harsh words I know, but that's what I like about this place, we talk about the really big things and peoples lives are changed, it's all real.

No one replied to the bits I thought were important, which I notice happens a lot, and I assume it's because the brain blocks out the bits that hurt to avoid trauma in the same way the brain blocks out painful memories. And I wonder further if partners who block out things that scrape against their ideology which they are forcing on their relationship are acting out here as well, or acting out in their actions to their partners. Protecting themselves from change by putting up a big ideological front or a big front of demands, anything to maintain control, cos it's scary looking into lonliness and thinking' that could be me tomorrow. They might leave, and I might wake up alone, they might decide they are gay and stay the night'. It must take real courage and real character to weather that. I do think for all the terrible years we've been together I have built charcter in my wife that wasn't there before. Not wholly intentionally, but the trauma for her has built that character. She went through a hoity-toity 'I'm the boss of the world' stage too, and she went submissive, and other things, and then she started to grow.

That's why I have plagued her to read Victims No Longer. I think it's crap, but I also think it will help her recall and make sense of the awful past and move on, because it catalogues the demands that survivors make on their partners.

On reflection, I want to postscript this by saying I don't think there's any point discussing my statements. Mainly because I already pre-empted all the questions and backlashes and my lastest post is just rehashing the same stuff. I can see that we're not talking about logic and pragmatism, we're talking feelings and I don't do feelings. I especially don't do feelings dressed up as logic. I just can't do that yet.
 
I do think for all the terrible years we've been together ...
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:eek: ??? is this an honest evaluation of your relationship?

ash, i can't help but wonder if you are trying to convince yourself all survivor's relationships are "terrible" so you might justify your own.

no doubt the survivor/non-survivor relationship is difficult and sometimes does end in separation but not always. a healthy relationship in any situation promotes growth and well being, being a suvivor is no exception, it just takes more time and effort.

i'm sorry you are so negative and see so little hope because it is there, it is possible, for you as well as everyone else.

all the best,
indy
 
I just wrote a load of stuff, then deleted it. I'm not sure I'm one of the 'healthy partners'. I am learning about the differences between my bf's problems and mine and have come to wonder why either of us has stayed with the other. At the same time, I can see a number of things which must have made sense enough for both of us to stay.....

Over the past year, I have come to see some of
my own ideology come to fruition with my bf. I have seen changes which are monumental for him/me/us. These are ideologies which I had long ago forgotten/learned to live without, never mind realise/ask for/hope for. I have also seen myself change in ways which have proved some of my own beliefs about myself to be not necessarily 'stuck' that way. Because of these things, I will not underestimate either my bf, or myself and our capacities to grow and change. (It has taken both of us seeking (good) proffessional help to begin to change these things) Whether we grow and change in the same direction and still want to be with eachtoher is yet to be seen. That is a reality. But maybe that's always the reality really......


Ash, are you saying your wife didn'thave any character originally?

Also, you say you don;t do feelings, but in one of your other posts, you said you love your wife. Is that love a feeling? I read other feelings too in your posts. Do you mean you feel numb a lot of the time?


I hear your feelings of indignation about partner's expectations. I also know the reality of having expectations and the absolute importance of learning to realise what they are, expressing them in a constructive way. What happens after that will be particular to each individual relationship and no-one can predict that future. Do you have expectations in your relationship with your wife?


I'm just going to post this now, before I delete it again...


peace
Beccy
 
I've just re-read what I posted, and I don't know if I was very clear...


Ash, I am not doubting your experience/feelings after reading about some of the partner's expectations on this board. They are your feelings and no-one has the right to doubt or invalidate them. But some of the things you said made me feel like you were invalidating and ridiculing those expectations.


peace
Beccy
 
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