Survivors and lying

Survivors and lying
T

TRACYUK

Registrant
Is it common for survivors to have problems with telling the truth. It seems to make sense to me that if they have been lied to in a way thats devestated their lives and lived large portions of their lives in denial of the truth that suddenly being expected to live by the truth must be a hard one.

I believe that lying is habitual and that being truthful is the same. Is being truthful a learned skill/difficult to achieve for some survivors??

My partner and I are in a bit of a spat because he has lied to me about something reasonably trivial but after his disclosure 5 months ago of serial unfaithfullness, CSA and a completely secret double life, I have a bit of an issue with him being truthful.

It feels as if its either truth or chaos at the moment (I'm not talking white lies like, no your bum doesn't look big in that, but hiding things).

I didn't use to feel like this and don't feel like this with other people. I've made a decision to trust him again and not get sidetracked by suspicions. But one small lie and I'm scared.

I guess it would help to know whether others have any experience with this and if survivors find being truthful hard. I've made quite a point with him about this and I'm hesitating as to whether I should be more understanding. I think not but am open to suggestions.

Thanks guys

T
 
Lying is the only way I got through my early adult life. How else do you stay married and act out?

And that wasn't the only reason for me to lie either, I could lie for England.

It's a hard habit to break, and I often fell into the trap of disclosing a certain amount of information to my wife and keeping some back, usually because it seemed too much at the time.
Then later when the same subject / issue came up again I felt that I had lied by ommission and became very concerned about whether to add more to a subject we'd already discussed. I still have a few things like that hanging around even now. And none of them are serious things at all.

The result of that it that I have ocassionally found myself lying and bullshitting my out of a 'situation' because I feared the consequences of my previous ommissions. How stupid is that?
Very stupid, she knows me too well by now. :o

Dave
 
Tracy,

This one could go on for pages. The most basic problem is that many survivors find that a lot of things they have believed about themselves for years are just not true. And a lot of things they believed about others are equally false. And on top of that are enormous guilt and self esteem issues. So, who and what to trust? What if it's all my fault? How will I protect myself? What is the truth after all?

Remember that survivors were usually expert liars as kids; we had to do that in order to keep our secrets and survive.

I don't offer these points as excuses. Just some comments to look at as a possible background to what is happening. Establishing a new truthful and honest relationship, even with someone you love, isn't like turning on the lights; the choice isn't light or dark. I know myself I have stumbled a lot. Not on anything serious, but still...

It is a problem.

Much love,
Larry
 
Tracy,

If you think about it, it actually makes a fair amount of sense that survivors grow up with a somewhat facile concept of "truth." Almost all of us were, as children, involved in a truth that couldn't be acknowledged. The lesson any boy or girl learns from this is that there are two realities, the one you can't talk about, and the false one, that you can talk about. Creating illusions from words is a core part of our early processing of our abuse experiences. We *had to* make it appear that everything was all right; the danger of letting that slip was so tremendously threatening to any shred of safety we might have felt that it becomes second nature to just keep piling on more and more illusory words. And underneath, we all knew that we were bad -- for being involved in sex so young, for enjoying it, for being liars, for not being the kids our parents wanted us to be. That just made it that much easier. Practice made perfect, and, as noted above, we grew up with a difficult habit to break.

On the relationship side of things, though, it becomes a two-way street and you're certain to feel hurt when your survivor lies to you. My partner has made it entirely clear to me, in no uncertain terms, that being truthful is an essential in our relationship; I know that he is right. He has also quite bluntly let me know how badly I've hurt him with lies in the past. It is important for the two of you to discuss this, for you to make it clear that you're not his abuser but his mate, and that you expect the truth from him no matter how much he thinks it's going to hurt you and/or him to tell you. That's basically what we went through with our co-therapist, and I've managed to stick to it. It has not been easy, for me or for him, but it's getting us through the rocky places.

As Larry says, "It is a problem." And yes, it's very much an abuse-related symptom. Good luck to the both of you.

Hugs,
John
 
Oh, and on the subject of white lies: we're not doing them these days. If bums look big, so be it!

h,
j
 
You're not the only one with such experiences. i know exactly what you mean about the lies thing. my boyfriend has a alot of issues with that and it can cause major problems especially when it comes to intimacy. he hides everything. How he feels, what he wants...

I try to remember how he lied about a huge part of his life for so long being honest isn't even natural for him anymore. Maybe it never was.

it's like john said, you have to try and show him you aren't his abuser and that he can be honest with you... i haven't been able to convince my bf of that yet. Maybe he's still adjusting, maybe he doesn't believe me, i don't know. It lookes like your guy is working on it, he talked to you about that other stuff.

good luck.
 
As survivors have already pointed out, lying is another defence mechanism used for protection and survival.

My boyfriend never lied or lies but he used to dissociate a lot ( I am so happy to say 'he used to'). I realized that once the healing started it actually became a problem and a burden for him to keep dealing with life by using dissociation and other defence mechanisms. But it took him time to substitute them for more positive coping skills.

In his case by talking about it, he became more aware of the need to change this. He actually realized that he didn't need to do it any more. He trusted himself enough to speak, to analyse why, to change...

In his case it was more a matter of building trust in himself. Once he built enough trust on the fact that he could do it then most of those mechanisms suddenly disappeared. I guess I helped him by reassuring and validating his feelings, by listening to his frustrations and by trying to understand that he could not change overnight. People in this forum helped me a lot to understand the survivor's position and that was essential for me to keep my strength and my belief on us.

Again this is us. Hope this helps.
XXX
H
 
That its not an uncommon issue and for that to be articulated is positive for me. It does seem to come back to safety in many ways.

I bet theres a safe feeling associated with lying. Like you say John and Larry, kids grow up keeping the secret to be safe. Thats bound to move with a person into adulthood. Lie and you'll be safe.

I think focusing on being truthful might be a bit of a red herring. The focus needs to be on creating safety methinks.

I know I've asked this one before but it seems a fundamental one and worth revisiting.

What makes a male survivor feel safe?? Handy tips and hints for the SO's graetfully received.

Love

T
 
I lied to survive on the streets and I got good at it and as Dave said "Its a hard habit to break" especially when the lies were bound up in self worth,insecurity, masks and a correct outward impression ie: being normal.

I still find myself doing it today but now I correct myself outloud if in company and that has got easier through the last five years, I have nothing else left to hide.

"What makes a male survivor feel safe?? Handy tips and hints for the SO's graetfully received".

Wow thats a toughy, off the top of my head being taken seriously and listened too without too much interuption


Kirk
 
Hi Tracy,

It is helpful for me in situations like this to keep evaluating which issues are mine, his, and ours to fix.

For example-- all your points about lying and safety are well taken. But you can't make him feel safe. It's his issue. Survivors bring their past hurt and experience into all types of "safe" situations. You could drive yourself crazy doing everything to make life safe for your partner-- provide him with the calmest, most supportive relationship environment in history-- and he still might not feel safe.

I'm not saying to forget about being supportive. I'm just saying that we sometimes blame ourselves for things that are out of our hands because the blame is easier to handle than the loss of control.

Likewise, some of the lying problem might be "yours" to fix. My boyfriend and I had an experience like this yesterday-- he went on an errand before work that he didn't mention to me as he was going out in the morning-- and while he was out, he spent a little bit of money.

A few years ago, this situation would have been the result of a deliberate lie. He would have planned the errand and the spending and hidden it from me on purpose-- not because I would be mad about it, just because he always had to have something to hide, and because hoarding money became a weird, obsessive thing with him.

Yesterday it actually made me proud-- he found himself with some extra time and spontaneously decided how he would spend it. He didn't just drive around or come home and watch TV-- he thought about things he needed to do, things that would make him feel that he had accomplished something with his day, things that would be fun for him-- and he did them. That's an incredible step.

I have to choose how to react to not knowing where he was for a while in the morning. Just like I can't make him feel safe in a safe place, because he is so used to feeling unsafe-- he can't make me feel better about the relationship-- I have fears because things were unhealthy for so long and it is up to me to recognize that things have changed and respond to the way it is now.

SAR
 
Tracy,

I guess the question of "What makes a male survivor feel safe?" is rather like asking "What do men like?" We are all different and have different experiences and problems. I think this is one you will begin to see as your partner works on things. You will be able to notice how he reacts to different challenges.

But as SAR says, you won't be able to "make" him feel safe in the way that a mother can make a child feel safe.

Much love,
Larry
 
As the folks above have put it so well, you can't make him feel any one way or the other. You cannot alter his feelings -- they are his, and they are valid; just as your feelings are yours, and just as yours are every bit as valid. Feelings aren't right or wrong, we don't get to choose them, making them happen is manipulative -- kind of like lying.

Lying, unlike feelings, is a behavior. You can ask anyone to change behaviors that hurt you (or them); you have every right to ask this of them. It's the only way to get them to stop doing things that hurt you (and them). Tracy, you radiate wisdom and compassion in your posts. Please let us know how this progresses.

h,
j
 
Oh, and Tracy, I just want to throw this out to you as well:

In any relationship, the 'safety' of both partners is equally important. You do not have to sacrifice your sense of safety to his. See post above, re: hurtful behaviors and asking them to be changed...and talk to your co-therapist about all of this.

h,
j
 
Great thread, and again I'm so late to the discussion. I've been tending to other duties and working, spending little if any time here.

From the sound of things, it would appear that being untruthful IS a problem for survivors. I too found that I had to lie to protect myself. My mother would have beat me with a belt on my bare little bottom if she found out what was happening to me (as if it were my fault!).

So I grew up in my own little culture of lying. As an adult I kept right on in that culture in an effort to cover up my acting out.

This new concept of honesty and openesss with my spouse can be hard at times to maintain because the "old tapes" are still trying to play in my head. I came home from work today after only being there an hour. Something broke in the works and I was not needed while the maintenance crew does the repair. It'll take all day. And I sit here trying to figure out what lie to tell my wife when she gets home about why I'm home before she is. How bizarre is that? What happened to telling the truth? I've nothing at all to hide and yet the "old tapes" tell me to "make up a story so you don't get in trouble".

Sh*t! I've got a lot more work to do I see.

Great thread Tracy. Thank-you.

Lots of love,

John
 
Tracy,

most abused do not lie!

Their lives consist of a constant lie about their past, and how they do not anybody to know the stark truth about what they went through.

OK, I will rephrase it, most abused boys are so sick of lying they dont know when they are doing it.

I get taken for a liar all the time, when I totally avoid telling lies, but people pick up on the other side of me, and hurt me.

If you do not want him to lie to you, try and get to know his problems, and tell him you are willing to listen and cry with him as he talks them thru.

Showing distrust to an abuse survivor is quickly picked up on his radar, so get to know and feel for him, ans also make sure he looks after your feelings,

ste
 
Again, so much wisdom from you people. The distiction between beahviour and feelings John is a useful one and also your spot on, that lying does impact on my feeling safe. I couldn't have articulated that but thats exactly how it feels and I think thats a valuable one I'm going to share with him.

Sar

You make a good point re; the problems that are his/mine/ours. It is actually work we've done with the therapist because I do try and anticipate his needs. EG; He boils 5 eggs at the beggining of ther week and has one a day with his lunch. Months ago I saw that by thursday he'd none left so I started to boil another for him. Thoughtful or facilitating his helplessness? Well I decided on the latter, didn't boil the egg and told him about it later.
As I've stopped doing stuff like that he's started to ask me to do more things for him. I have a reply that comes in regularly "boil your own eggs" which we both laugh at. I actually find it quite liberating which is good and he's happy that I'm happier.

Larry

The bit about mothering is astute because thats how I feel when he goes into little boy lost mode and feels all the hurt as a child. I feel maternal and protective!! Its an effort to not wrap him in cotton wool and try and make it all go away. Its really hard when you can clearly see a childs pain on his face and its something I struggle with. He changes so dramatically. This is something that has only featured since his disclosure.

Theres os much that rings true or I recognise in all your posts. You made me laugh John with your tapes about lying and leaving work early. He SO does this. Makes up bullsh*t when its SO not neccessary. I see him doing it to other people and its like a complicated pastry bun has been made when the truth was actually just a simple bread roll. It looks such damn hard work, I bet its exhausting?

Also Ste, he does talk about feeling as if he's not going to be believed even when he's telling the truth. Thinks everyone sees a bullsh*tter.

These things are lessening and he's also getting much better with trusted friends. I do think that the safety thing is key but as you guys say thats his feeling and not mine. I could get tied up in knots trying to create safety.

Thanks a million everyone.

I definatl feel better having talked and read your replies. My needing to talk doesn't always cooincide with his being able to listen and being able to come here makes all the differnec. I kinda get things sorted in my head much more for when we do talk.

Lots of love

Tracy
 
Tracy,
Your situation rings so familiar in my life.
We have been working toward our goal over three yrs....9 months focused, and one month with more honesty and truth than I ever imagined possible.

It took fighting, loving, tears and laughter to make it where we are today.....
this past holiday wkend was AMAZING.
He was in for 3 days from a work trip (it will be 3 months total when he returns).
I tended to think if I DID ENOUGH he would do what he had to do to realize what he needed to do to turn things around.
Well, it never worked that way, EVER!
I did push, and I did love....I was hurt many times and I said things to him that were painful but truthful.
He lied, he fought what was right, he cried and he loved me back.
We have lived on a rollercoaster!
I feel like I had to prove myself loyal and worthy. He tested me with the most painful things a person can survive...(pushing me away intimately, infidelity and lying)...
but when we went to the T...his T told me that I was correct in what I wanted in a relationship...but I had been living REACTIVELY.
And he was right.
I was reacting to what he did to me, I was letting it destroy me from the inside out...I lost myself in the process of supporting him.
He told me, in front of my husband that it was indeed my choice to be with him...but it was also my job to draw a very definite line (and STICK TO IT) of what was acceptable and what was not. He told me it was my job to let him know my limits and let him know that I could only take so much and where the 'correct' boundaries in our relationship would be. He tended to want to stretch the hell out of them on his side but demand I walk a tight line on mine.
Once he saw the control-freak (me!) deminish, and me put the accountablity on him...things started turning around.
I didnt stop loving him because he was pushing me away. I didnt stop loving life because I couldnt control his behavior. I was carrying on...and happy and life was good again on my end...and it drew him to me instead of him wanting to run away from me.
He knows the truth is one thing we have to have to stay together.
It is by far one of the hardest things for him to do in certain situations (in regards to his mind regarding women and the situations his actions would put him in)....
He is reading Mike Lew's book now.......ON HIS OWN...and text messaging me periodically to ask me questions about things.
He is doing it all on his own....because he sees the beauty of what boundaries and real love offer him not because of anything I have done or not done to get him to do the right thing.
It took a long time girl, and me almost losing myself....but his T was correct.
Living reactivly to his problem was drawing me into the dysfunction of his issues, and pulling us apart.
I think you are on the right track.
Good luck!

xo to all and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!
 
He lied, he fought what was right,
Click to expand...
I saw this at the top of Beautiful's post and though "yeah, he's fighting because she's pushing!"

Then at the bottom there's this -

He is doing it all on his own....because he sees the beauty of what boundaries and real love offer him not because of anything I have done or not done to get him to do the right thing.
It took a long time girl, and me almost losing myself....but his T was correct.
Living reactivly to his problem was drawing me into the dysfunction of his issues, and pulling us apart.
Click to expand...
Which shows that in a relationship, one that's going to work, we need the boundaries just as much as you do - possibly more.

For so long we set our own boundaries based on our dysfunctional thinking, and expected our partners to fit in with those boundaries - I certainly did.
And it must be very tempting for a loving partner when abuse first becomes a talked about issue in the relationship to want to give us space, and give us permission to set our own boundaries wherever we want them. DON'T DO IT !!

Agree boundaries, and fight your corner! Don't make huge allowances for us, make us work a bit for what we want. That way we learn new things, we learn through experience that the relationship we're in has TWO people in it.

And don't treat the boundaries reactively either, stick to them. I got roasted for crossing or ignoring them plenty of times, I learnt all about boundaries very rapidly :rolleyes:

Going back to the lying issue, I have a gut feeling that many survivors ( me included here :( ) are / have been world class bullshitters.
We all know people who must be at least 300 years old, they've "been there and done that" to such an extent it can't be anything else but BS.
I've seen a lot of this in survivors.

Probably because we had such low self-esteem and truly believed that we were worthless we then created stories and lies to make ourselves interesting, macho or whatever.
We hated who we were so we created someone else.

It's very difficult to keep up, and also extremely difficult to stop.
Stopping requires us to admit we're bullshitters, and that's something that men rate lower than a snakes belly. Many guys would rather admit to drinking their own bath water than being a bullshitter.

The danger there is that although we pledge honesty and truth to our partners, and we try our best to do that, the old and established lies that have become our persona are so deeply fixed we leave them there. Possibly out of expediency because at the time we're dealing with so many other issues that we put the established lies on the back burner, which seems safe enough at the time but can then come back to haunt us later on when some aspect of our false persona comes to life again, maybe a meeting with an old friend.

This does create one more thing for the survivor to deal with, and the chances are they won't deal with it because they have more than enough going on already, so maybe it's something partners need to be aware of - and deal with? I don't know, but I can see that it could be a huge problem, and could cause boundary crossing.

Possibly there are some things that are best left quietly ( or even silently ) acknowledged and allowed to fade away? if there is, then I would vote this issue onto the list.

Dave
 
Dave,

What a great post. I get into quarrels with my wife all the time over boundaries, and I'm glad we are able to call each other on violations. Otherwise what do we have? A lot of simmering resentments and feelins of being taken for granted, and that is a recipe for disaster.

Lying: I am still so far back on more basic issues that I find it difficult even to add this one to my list of "things to work on". To be honest, Dave, right now I am still trying to figure out who I am. I have been offloading so much crap about myself in the last two months that it's very intimidating to ponder what sort of vision of myself I am left with. I don't mean there is nothing there, just that it is all so new and daunting.

Frankly, I think survivors who for years have been hiding and denying what happened to them as boys must by definition be expert liars. Or bullshitters as you would say. Why? Because we have even been able to lie to ourselves. Maybe that's being too harsh, okay. But surely the life of a non-recovering victim of CSA must contains mountains of accumulated untruth, extending even to doubts as to whether the abuse ever even occurred. I am not judging here, just pointing to what I see as a basic reality.

I think this is hugely significant. All of a survivor's assumptions about the world and his place in it have been wrecked as a boy. Then he assumes burdens of guilt and shame that are not his and acts out to compensate for deeds committed by others. He carries feelings that he is worthless and unlovable into adulthood, where in every aspect of his life he encounters difficulties that seem to prove that these feelings are accurate. Finally he hits bottom and realizes that he has to seek help.

Then what happens? He discovers gradually that all the things he took to be truth, all the things upon which he based so much of his life, are not truths at all - they are just junk from abuse. He feels like he is reinventing himself and he wonders can all this be true. (I still sometimes wonder will I just wake up one day and I am 11 and safe and all this was a dreadful nightmare.) He finds his story to be incredible, and yet when he tells it he is believed and supported. Huh? And to top it off, just when he thinks he has something figured out, something else comes along and the house of cards comes crashing down.

I could continue but I guess you see where I am headed. How can all this NOT have a profound effect on a survivor's sense of truth and falsehood? In many ways he is still discovering some pretty basic truths that he has a lot of trouble believing. He may well think that seeing as all his life feels like a lie, just one more to protect himself isn't a big deal.

I guess I see this as a lot more than a matter of boundaries. It seems to me that there is a huge and continuous element of confusion and redefinition in all this. But I would admit in a second that here I am expressing my own issues, and especially a sense of discovering a "me" that I like, but am unsure what to do with yet.

Much love,
Larry
 
But we're not the only liars, this is a good atricle that appeared in the Sunday Times a couple of weeks ago.

Dave
"Liar, liar, pants on fire"
 
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