Survivor questions re: sexuality and intimacy

[Acorn2Oak]

Hi Taofish, sorry you were having a hard time last night. Wanted to respond but dealing with my own process. Nothing major, just distracting, making it hard to be present with others in a meaningful way.

Gosh, there are so many different variables in relationship dynamics. Can be very hard to sort. Interesting what catalyzes attention, reaction. And the thing that appears to be the issue may not be the issue at all. Sort and sift. Sort and sift. At least it sounds like y'all have a foundation, but it takes two regardless.

Am reminded of something my T told me. It's not the event but the meaning we attach to it. Read that elsewhere too. In my experience, "what it means" may not be "what it is." Ah, but how to know? Sometimes I just have to choose an option and go with it based on best current understanding of things. However, I may react strongly one way or another to the event based on what it means to me. And that meaning based on prior experience or interpretation, which may not be relevant to current situation. I think of this in my situation and perhaps relevant to you, as regards attention or lack thereof. If I ever felt validated (accepted) in a particular way, I tend to notice and attach significance to that when I see/feel it again. For example, depending on my state of being, someone's attention may scare me or I find myself in passionate fantasy. Both these reactions are based on the meaning I have (most likely) unconsciously assigned to the experience. In actuality, it may mean neither. Without open communication, it can be hard to discern either way. In my case, at least, the passionate fantasy may be as inaccurate as the fear. So I tend not to put too much credence on either without further (and hopefully objective) exploration. As a scientist, expect you relate to that.

AS for the female vs male survivor thing. I'd agree that it certainly seems harder, definitely IS different in some ways. At my most cynical, I think, but we're guys so who cares. That's very probably a result of my own conditioning. When I'm more in tune, I realize people are people, beyond culture, gender and role expectations; each deserves support, etc. Personally, I find myself relating very well to women survivors (assuming they aren't automatically triggered by a male bodied person - which I understand) but not so much to male survivors. Of course, if I look deeper, it isn't really about gender, but conditioned associations based on prior experience -- the meaning I associate with each.

 

[taofish]

it's not the event but the meaning we attach to it... WOW! that hit home.. as I ponder all of this and our impending conversation - I have worked hard to separate the events from the meaning - but this definitely helps make that process more clear!
As I mentioned, I don't care as much that he had so many partners or that so many of them were men... and before I had said it was the WHY that concerned me as THAT impacts the present and future. But I think the way you phrased it event v meaning is a more clear way to turn it over in my head. And almost certainly a better way to talk about it with him.

 

[Acorn2Oak]

Good! Glad it was helpful. I can really relate to wanting to know, understand the WHY. That, to me too, is the main issue/question. The "why" (reason) is far more fundamental and to me, definitely the main thing. In my view, one cannot adequately assess behavior without knowing the reasoning behind it. I suppose any choice makes sense to the person doing it, given their state of being in the moment. However, the very same action may be expressed from a functional or dysfunctional reference point. I admit I can get obsessed about that ... and sometimes have done so with people who cannot articulate it. UGH!

 

[dark empathy]

@Acorn, Well significance is a rather difficult thing, sinse like most everything else in human experience I'm realizing that there is no clear categorisation but a sliding scale. There are times that we can utterly change and be in control of our own experience and what significance and affects it has, eg, putting an insult behind you or focusing on the good things over a mixed day, however there are also experiences who's significance only seems to affect us in hindsight, either negatively or positively.
For example,an evening at the end of my first term at university at Christmas, when six friends all turned up separately to visit in my room which turned into an impromptu party is an event which at the time I just saw as a nice thing, later on I held it as a precious memory of a point when I'd been more accepted and more easy with people than I'd been at any other time in my life.

This is a problem especially in abuse.

@Taofish, I'm sorry pandora's isn't helpful sinse I was suggesting it for my lady. I personally call myself a gender equalitarian, which means I get equally bothered about female sterriotyping, objectification, rejection of expression etc, however where as there are plenty of people prepared to stand up for those sorts of issues, the intrinsic problems of the way society treats men don't tend to be as clearly recognized, problems which are often used just as harmfully as perceptions of women have been in the past and often still are both in professional bullying and abuse (my own abuse had a lot of this).

of course this isn't to say all women are potential male victimizers anymore than the other way around, just that I don't particularly like the way society often makes me feel like a monster or a predator for being male.

All that aside however Taofish, I am genuinely glad you and your husband share connections as people. those sorts of things are what makes communication possible, if slow, and will probably help get there in the end provided your husband is also willing to go down that particular path.

One thing I will say, is that something which helps my lady and I a lot is being able to communicate without words, especially in intimacy and lovemaking, indeed being silent together, (especially for two people who talk as much as we do), is something that as it's own pleasure.

 

[taofish]

Yes.. while I called myself a feminist - I am definitely mindful of gender equality issues from both sides. years ago when I was teaching high school, a teacher had been in the news for sleeping with one of her students - some of the boys in my class spoke up about how cool that was, or what a stud he was, or how pretty she was - overall the sentiment was that it was not abuse because he was male and she was female... I said hey, wait a minute!!! turn it around.. I don't care what anybody looks like.. if the teacher had been male and the student female... we would all be calling for his arrest and prosecution... this is no different! Not only was he underage, but she took advantage of the teacher/student relationship and that is never going to be ok. on a related not - years later - when some of my former students were in their 20s - I would run into them around town. I had at least 4 that I can recall that wanted to date me ( or at least sleep with me)... #e!! no!!!! I told them that it would never matter how old they were, I would always see them as my student and me, their teacher and I did not, and would not see them in a sexual light - much less compromise that relationship.
I agree that we as a society have a LONG way to go in encouraging/allowing both genders to have full opportunity in expression.
As for Pandora - I think that it was less helpful for me due to the fact that it was mostly female survivors so I was not seeing discussion of issues that affect male survivors AND because there was little to no discussion of same sex attraction as a result - which was something that I needed to learn about. So, it may be far more helpful to your lady than it is to me since your situation does not include the ssa component.

 

[taofish]

DE... I read your post on the other thread - referring to Andril.... I love that! I had a wonderful moment last night in town - I can't really go into details as it would give away too many details about my location as well as my professional position (beyond scientist) and semi will known within the state... anyway - the symbol that came out of the night for me was the Foundry... and one of the other things I often say when it comes to deep soul work is that you can't get to the water without going through the fire... So I really, really loved the metaphor of Aragon's sword for you.

 

[dark empathy]

@Taofish, glad you liked the simaly with Andril.
Unfortunately I just heard my dad collapsed while at a concert so I don't really have much of a response at the second, though I will say my wife is being so amazingly supportive it makes me feel almost guilty.

Luke.

 

[taofish]

I'm so sorry to hear about your Dad!
There is no need to feel guilty for your wife being supportive. I posted something a while back in response to acorn - in which I referenced Brene Brown's anatomy of trust... give it a listen - she talks about that.
Hope your Dad is ok and all better very soon.

 

[dark empathy]

Well we're not sure at the mment abutmy dad. He seems okay and is conscious but will be going to the cardiology lab tomorrow so we'll see. I also hope this doesn't create friction with my mum who I think is just realizing that now that i have my lady I won't be as reliant on my parents for companionship anymore, even though she was always keen on me finding someone (often in a very wrong way proposing solutions and then castigating me for not liking them).

Hopefully things with my dad will be okay sinse this is he last thing we need right now.
As to support, yes do feel slightly guilty, partly I think because I am realizing just what a state I'd be in were I having to cope with this alone.

Hope things are going okay for you.

 

[Acorn2Oak]

Hi Tao and DE, sorry I've not replied to posts. Not that it was necessary or expected, I suppose. Been feeling out of the loop lately. But that happens sometimes. Try as I might to stay on track, it's like a switch flips in my head and I just wander off. LOL.

DE, Good points about "significance." Thanks! Hope your dad is OK. Hope the family dynamic doesn't get too unsettled.

Taofish, I find your perspective on feminism (gender equality) unusual and very refreshing. Much appreciated. Gives me a perspective other than feminist = man hater. In my usual circles, you would be regarded as an evolved soul. Hope things are going well for you.

 

[taofish]

Thanks y'all...
we had a great conversation last night... and a REALLY great morning
more manana

 

[dark empathy]

Glad things are working out at least slightly better.
@Acorn, feminists come in different types like anyone else, there was a lecturer who I found very triggering who was a boarderline sociopath who used her status as a woman to bully anyone in her vicinity and actively hated anyone with a y chromosome, she nearly blocked me from doing a masters which is another story, however I'm well aware not all feminists are like that, anymore than all female survivers are like the girl I once met who proudly cdeclared "I was raped!" as an excuse to belittle and castigate aany males around her.

Anyway, at least there are decent people in the world of both genders, a shame that the decent people aren't the ones who actually make any decisions.
Sorry, I'm feeling a little synical today, despite the fact my wife continues to be positively amazing!

 

[taofish]

Thank you!
I'm trying to enjoy the moment at face value and not analyze too much. (difficult for me) as my tendency, especially in the face of potential hurt, is to either flee or find an ironclad reason to either be all in or all out.

 

[dark empathy]

@Taofish, living in the moment and not worrying or concerning yourself about the future is really difficult, though i will say it's one ironic thing that the two times I've managed this completely have been in the worst throws of my abuse, and more recently with my lady sinse honestly the old cliche about time standing still actually is true (sometimes we have spent entire days just holding each other in bed).

 

[Judith]

dark empathy.

Or whoever also started this thread. My dad has cancer and is terminal but he could live long time but he is not doing well. According to doc he has six months. That is why the delay in responding to some of this. I want to.

Responses below yours

All that aside however Taofish, I am genuinely glad you and your husband share connections as people. those sorts of things are what makes communicati! on possible, if slow, and will probably help get there in the ! end prov ided your husband is also willing to go down that particular path.

Judith: Communication is key on both parts even in healing from abuse and so on. If need be get counseling if talk it through before during and after sex is not helping. talk about it like money is also what is needed.

One thing I will say, is that something which helps my lady and I a lot is being able to communicate without words, especially in intimacy and lovemaking, indeed being silent together, (especially for two people who talk as much as we do), is something that as it's own pleasure.

Judith: Yes sometimes talk doesnt help but showing is what women need and vice versa. Especiallky when healing from sex.

 

[Judith]

Hi Taofish,

and Acorn2Oak and others.
Male survivor here.

"If your libido decreased with age and you felt relief from some urges that bothered you, would you be reluctant to take testosterone for fear that it would bring those urges back?"

Interestingly, just started taking herbal supplements with that in mind. However, if I weren't partnered, not sure I would bother as it is more for her than me. Though being partnered, we don't engage often due to my issues around the matter especially lack of libido.

Judith: I need to split this up but some of my responses will probably go below too.
Sex essentials is for both couples and can be gotten at a health food store. It becomes more quality than quantity as you get older. Ten or less times is consider sexless marriage. Urges are a way for you to use to learn to control and use it to your advantage. Libido also can have emotional factors involved too and sexual abuse can cause those to be mixed.

Libido itself doesn't seem to be the issue for me, though it can be distracting. It's more whether it is or can be directed in a way I can manage. Would rather not feel it if cant do anything about it (in a way that feels right for me). And these days, such instances are indeed rare due to ongoing CSA issues.

Judith: The key is to figure out what emotional issue is behind the urges. In childhood and or after abuse stop we used the urges to solve teh emotional pain. Sexual trauma can make the urges are to handle. Because abuse start it earlier than it should have been. Since men are action oriented and sex is a way for them to be close in a marital connection -its way for a man to express his feelings when you mix in trauma with that it can be hard to find the good ones. That is why sexual healing is also involved in doing if one can with a partner. Usually if a partner is willing to help the person to heal sexually will help them to work through the feelings in sex. The key is among others is the major ones can be healed and others learn to control. It is about self control and take control back from the jerk who cause the pain in the first place. who has control you or the jerk.

Also, if it were ONLY a question of libido and not the multitude of sometimes intense and confusing other emotions and trauma memories associated with it, it wouldn't be such an issue. As it is, I literally can't feel aroused and not also feel triggered to some degree which can shut me down instantly. Though actually these days I rarely feel aroused, I think, due to CSA issues. But there may be other reasons I don't yet realize.

Judith: The abuser use the arousal thing against you. The key is to work on the arousal first and resolve those issues first. what is the emotional thing behind the arousal> Men feel that control was taken from them and that they can never get control back. You can tell the jerk to take a hike in the memory and work on taking control back from him. yes arousal is a result of CSA, foreplay even for men can be a factor because of the control factor. Whatever in sex was used as a control thing is what it is going to be a control thing to take it back. Release is a control thing. He made it happen on his terms not yours and take control of your body back is what is going to heal....the key is to figure out why you can feel aroused and it is the jerk doing it. Writing about it will help you find about what the other issues are. I wrote about the sexual trauma to my father mentor and getting healthy clarity -even if it is male female trauma -can help you get clarity to heal before during and or along with doing

"Is being loved for YOU and not feeling like you are being loved for your penis or sexuality an issue?"

YES, absolutely! And, I have a very hard time believing I'm loved since not able to accommodate ALL her preferences. I try to make up for it in other ways. One small addition: a never felt loved for my penis. I did however feel that to be loved, accepted, etc depended on how well I used it. Not that experienced, actually, but definitely had used that "skill" as a way to validate myself assuming numerous other (I think common relationship) criteria were met.

Judith: The abuser used you to make it about what you could do for him and that your penis is what was his. That is control and you need to take that back. It is not always about what to do for her but how to make the relationship and emotional connection good. There will be times it wont be good but you both need it to cement it to keep you both together when other things are pulling you apart. Emotional thing children need is acceptance and love without physical being used to make them feel that way
depending on what you mean by her preferences -some of taht could be sign of sexual trauma in her. Sex is about helping both of you together and separate. It is about how you can make her feel good with your penis -it is about you as a person and your body not what the abuser made you feel. The key is to seek validation outside of sex and then that helps hugely in sex. Men see there penis as a physical part of them in all ways one directional -women are whole. She needs the emotional and relational part in the midst of sex. So It is important for you to see your penis as apart of you as a person who can be loved for all parts of you that included-which is what you need but the abuser made it about how you what it could do for him that is wrong. It needs to be about what it can be for you and her.

The attitude I had most of my life is: My "job/role" is to make her feel good in that way. That's all that matters and my acceptance and continued relationship absolutely depends on that. And I did feel good making her feel good. But I couldn't think of it in terms of ME feeling good or I couldn't/can't perform. today if she wants ME to feel good, to do things to make me feel good, I instantly freeze and go numb.

Judith; The key is to figure out why you freeze. THat is a self protection thing that the abuser forced you to do when you were trying to protect yourself and he wouldnt listen.
The key is to learn to say that your ok for you without sex being the reason why you need to feel good. the point is you are fine as a person without sex and that is what the mother and or father should have taught you before sex ever entered the picture and respect your body boundaries and physical sexual boundaries. They were violated. The key is to figure out why you cant feel good with and without sex and what the abuser took to make you feel like you dont feel good about you. The key is to work through those feelings in your head while your doing it to see how you can change it. to your control and not the abuser. She is a good one to help you work through it. Men are self conscious of their sexual internal being and are concern with being rejected for not being a sexual feeling and some of that is normal but the key is to separate out the normal from the abuser -a little is normal but the key is control.
What are you afraid of when you go numb? ask yourself why questions and analyze it. that is going to help you to move past it.

"Also - any feedback specific to sexuality v intimacy and how you are dealing with it would be great."

This may negate previous comments, but for me physical s/x is almost irrelevant if the heart/emotional connection (some might say "chemistry") and rapport in other ways is there. I am capable of feeling significant connection with someone I'm emotionally close to (oddly, not as intensely in current relationship, for which I'm both grateful and dismayed) regardless of physical proximity. However I do very much appreciate the level and kind of connection we share. It validates me in a way I most certainly never got as a kid and helps me see myself as more than a tool or toy and that I matter to her for more than what I can do for her. that sense of connection somehow manages to get through the filters and feels safe, comfortable and supportive.

Judith; THe key is to figure out why in the current one your struggling and analyze it. Where is the control.?

For me, emotional intimacy as I understand it is FAR more important, far more valuable, far more real and relevant than s/x. For me, such rapport is more stable, comprehensive, dependable and far less dependent on my physical condition or circumstances. Physical s/x or other physical activities (massage, etc) is for me an expression of affection, appreciation, not the cause of such feelings. It is most certainly not the only way available to me nor necessarily always a priority. anyway, for what it may be worth, my two cents. Hope it helps.

Judith: Yes emotional intimacy is important before the sexual. WE are sexual beings from birth and our parents guide us with boundaries and protect us by not touching where they dont belong except for medical purposes.
WE are emotional beings from birth. Watch babies. The sexual usually after puberty plays out in learning how to control the urges and that control helps one to learn how to control it in sex in a marriage -the conttrol helps you to get you waht you need in sex in emotionally healthy way.