Surviving Unhealthy Attractions

[SubtleStuff]

Hi Y'all,

Recently, I was attending a CoDA meeting (the only local social group that is even mildly relevant to my healing process) and felt a powerful attraction to a woman who is clearly very unlikely to be helpful to my healing process in a close personal way (young and has a partner already) but somehow my mind latched onto the fantasy anyways.

I realize that I goofed by offering her a hug (this is common practice in this group and I felt somewhat obliged (she was new to the group)) when part of me was leery of her because she was so strongly physically attractive to me. I've spent the last couple of days going through layers of fear, shame, and high stress which seems now to be subsiding.

I worked the 12 steps (and transforming patterns of codependent behaviour) around this issue and they seem to have helped somewhat. One of the steps is to tell one other person, so I thought this forum would be a good place for that as it is safer for me than a woman (the sponsors in the CoDA meeting are all women).

Do you guys experience unhealthy attractions as you heal? How do you prevent them and/or recover from them once it has happened? How do you find safe, healthy social gatherings that include women?

 

[focusedbody]

Gaatt:

For a long time, my unhealthy attractions were deemed normal and understandable by me, even as they were difficult. I found ways to coach myself through them with compassion for myself and a good sense of awareness.

Something about facing all of the deeper feelings of neglect and disconnection suddenly made compassion for myself close to impossible. It was as if the floor disappeared and I could only find myself floating in the confusion of feelings no longer masterable. It has taken me a fairly substantial period of time to come to terms with and accept this level of attraction , desire, or whatever else comes to mind.

One thing that may help is to remember how human all of this is. I understand some of the panicky feelings and the need to walk through them slowly. It is also true that others generally have compassion for this basic and primal struggle. On this site I have found voices of support for a kind of transparency that was secretly longed for but also feared.

So I say, try not to brush all of this aside in the long run. With a sense of care and self empathy, I think there are discoveries to be made that can bring one more in touch with genuine experience and love.

FB

 

[SubtleStuff]

Thanks FB, for your wise words!

So I say, try not to brush all of this aside in the long run. With a sense of care and self empathy, I think there are discoveries to be made that can bring one more in touch with genuine experience and love.

When I originally felt the attraction to this woman, I quickly brushed it aside thinking that it was not good for me to entertain any fantasies with her. For a whole day, I thought it was gone. The next day upon waking, those dreams were back with a vengeance. I got thoroughly lost in sweet fantasies of love and affection for a woman who is highly unlikely to be able to reciprocate. Then came the fear (who am I going to talk to when the most obvious support people are women? (I'm terrified of women's anger around male sexuality) Thank God for this forum! ). Then came the shame, then the relief as the storm passed. My body is in need of care now as my back is hurting. It's on my "to do" list.

I did learn some interesting things this morning as I looked over CoDA's attitude toward sex energy. There are three related codependent patterns with recovery patterns listed on the CoDA website (see: https://coda.org/index.cfm/meeting-materials1/patterns-of-recovery/). So it looks like I might be in the right place after all. That was reassuring to me. I often associate a group of women with people who are angry at men and either manipulate us sexually or withdraw completely out of their anger rather than looking for solutions and healing. I've also learned the importance of listening to my small doubting voice that was saying that maybe offering that woman a hug was not such a good idea and running the risk of appearing to be insensitive.

Thanks for your thoughts FB. It's good to know I'm not alone with this.

 

[focusedbody]

I often associate a group of women with people who are angry at men and either manipulate us sexually or withdraw completely out of their anger rather than looking for solutions and healing.

Gaatt:

This seems to nail it on the head.

Women's anger, like men's anger, doesn't have to signal withdrawal. But perhaps there is some courage in allowing it to be expressed as there remains the risk of something negative emerging. If you are in a supportive environment or one that encourages risk-taking in the spirit of good will, hope, care, love, etc., perhaps anger can come out, even as people stay in touch and engaged.

In that way, transparency might grant an opportunity to suspend the above association long enough to allow for something more connected to others.

Of course that can bring up other fears, but with appreciation and awareness of what can happen, perhaps the ground can feel a little more solid.

Thanks for these new considerations and best of luck in your brave and inspiring explorations.

FB

 

[SubtleStuff]

Hi FB,

Thanks for writing and for your Kudos.

I suspect I'll stir up some challenging feelings for the members of this CoDA group. The woman who stirred up feelings of attraction in me is quite young (somewhere in her mid twenties I suspect). That is a major red flag for me (Other than being dragged into what would essentially be a sexual attraction there is also the challenge of having little to no effective support for an intimate connection with her by members of this community (major shame trigger for me)). She is also new to CoDA which tells me that she is unlikely to have experience with healing at this depth (few people are, but she is especially unlikely). Thirdly, she mentioned she has a partner (another major red flag).

I'm coming to a middle ground now. Honouring my attraction to her physical beauty, her warm heart and her apparent intelligence (she seemed to me to not have sacrificed her intelligence in the short time I experienced her presence) while being aware and careful (for myself) of the red flags is a good middle place. I have tended to oscillate between "Wow, she's gorgeous!" and take off into various sweet fantasies, to "Stay as far away as possible" when the reality of the red flags start to come to my consciousness.

I'm glad for your support. There are no local men that I trust to help me come to a place of peace with this. Most men celebrate the sexual attraction without seeing the potential for disaster which I experience very strongly.

Thanks for your help!

 

[SubtleStuff]

Hi FB, I thought I'd add a quick thought on this topic.

I often associate a group of women with people who are angry at men and either manipulate us sexually or withdraw completely out of their anger rather than looking for solutions and healing.

I often associate men with fear at the level of sexual attractions. It affects me most strongly when I look for affection and can't gain effective support from women (because of my fear of their anger and the lack of an effective healing connection). Men tend to withdraw when I look for support from them. I find non-sexual healing touch to be the most effective support for my healing process. Men are typically terrified of this kind of connection with other men (with the exception of paid professionals who are rare around here anyways). It leaves me quite isolated.

 

[dark empathy]

Hi Gaat.

A couple of questions, firstly, why is this attraction unhealthy? Is it unhealthy just because it cannot be realized or does it actually put you in a bad place. You know my own struggle with love and attraction, however in my case I'd never have said any of the attractions were not healthy, just destructive to me personally because they made me so much more aware of my own inadequacies.

while this woman probably can't recipricate as you said, I have been in the position previously where i've felt actual love for someone who has turned out to be a close friend, even on occasions given me very! validating experiences despite the circumstances beeing impossible, eg, what L said to me last July, my knolidge that someone could! feel the same way about me.
Of course I do feel a bit of a fake commenting on this topic since manifestly the last time I felt a very painful, overwhelming attraction to someone, ---- well look where it wound up, albeit neither of us expected things to go that far. However I definitely remember what that was like, and no, it's not good, however if the attraction is indeed more than just physical response then it's probably more than just what you think.

Also one thing I do now know, which i was not aware of before, for all I always was convinced I was a pervert or disgusting, is that women really don't! pick up on male attraction, they rely heavily on a man to make his interest clear to them, so I wouldn't worry that giving this woman a hug would be taken the wrong way, indeed one of the things my lady has told me, is that there is a very crytical and obvious difference between someone who is s/xually predatory, and just someone who harbers affection, and that she doesn't see me as ever falling into the other category basically on a physical level of gentleness. Something which I imagine you have as well Gaat.
I definitely understand this and it's something i struggle with myself, but apparently not half as much a problem as I thought, and I suspect the same is true of you as well.

As regards groups of women, anger and hatred of men, well I know first hand what being on the recieving end of that is like. However there is another side to it.

It's unfortunately true that society socializes men to not talk about emotions. Generally speaking I've found that among my close friends the male ones are just as capable of being emotionally supportive and empathic as the female ones, however in groups of people I know less, it's sadly still true that if your looking for emotional understanding, until you can actually find a man who is willing to outgrow that stupid socialization your better off looking to women, ie, if you don't know someone well enough but need support it's more likely that a woman will be in a socially freeer position to offer this than a man.

It's not right or correct and it fosters far too much gender biased crap, especially when unpleasant women use the fact that discussion of emotions is only permitted around women as evidence of women's own superiority, ---- I remember a very ironic state of affairs in which a hard, angry, and brutal feminist lecturer told me in a cold and sneering tone how "MEn are so hostile and intimidating", if it wasn't so nasty it might have almost been humourus.

But it's unfortunately true.

Generally speaking I get around groups of women by simply treating them the same way I treat men, ie, being a decent human being, though obviously if the group are going to be vile that won't work, heck for me in a way the disability thing is almost more important than the gender thing, ie, getting people to recognize I'm the same dam species.

Luke.

 

[SubtleStuff]

Hi Luke, Thanks for writing!

Why is this attraction unhealthy? Is it unhealthy just because it cannot be realized or does it actually put you in a bad place.

I find it unhealthy for a few reasons.

First, I neglected to pay attention to a small voice in my head that said "Don't hug this person, she's too attractive physically". I overrode it because I was leading the group that night and wanted to include her since she was new. Perhaps there was a part of me that was longing for an intense emotional roller coaster ride, and I got it! It's very hard on my body and leads nowhere.

Second, I fell prey to a classic female power trip. She's very powerful in the "Battle of the Sexes". Men fall prey to physically attractive women with warm hearts and sharp minds easily. We can spend alot of energy, time, and money trying to get out of her what can't be had that way. In the end, we end up resentful. It's where I'm at today. Fortunately, it's only after a week of an intense inner journey on my own. Many men take on much more.

Third, the only indicator of a connection that is potentially based in mutual support and healing is that she showed up at a CoDA meeting. The newcomer's package for that meeting suggests waiting 6 months to a year before pursuing an intimate connection with a woman. I'm only at 4 months. She's brand new. It's a bit soon to get all wound up about her and there are other indicators that she's not a good partner to connect closely with me (she said she currently has a partner, lack of social support due to the age difference)

I just got lost in my dreams. I overrode the one inner voice that would have protected me and wasted a heck of alot of energy on dreaming. On the plus side, I'm learning to be more attentive to those small voices that make me unpopular (in my mind) at social events if I listen to them. I learned more about the 12 step method and it does seem to help. I also learned that I have good support here when faced with these situations. That's important to me.

I doubt that my connection with this particular woman will go much further. She's too young. But then again, who knows? lots can happen in 6 months. I just have to learn to take better care of myself and be a little more attentive to my own inner wisdom.

I'm not overly concerned that she's taken my hug the wrong way. It was clearly consensual (She verbally accepted my offer). It was far too short and included with the hugs I offered her male and female neighbours at the meeting. If anyone thinks I was hitting on her, I'd really like to know how they came to that conclusion! I was more concerned about lack of support for myself as I work through my own feelings. I don't trust local people much at this level. They don't fully understand what men who've been sexually traumatized by women go through. You guys do!

Thanks for your comments on my gentleness. I can be very considerate and generally am. I worry about the emotional storm that a sexual connection can stir up in me. I need a connection that has solid roots in mutual support and healing at great depth. Few people seem to know what I'm talking about let alone having the courage to get anywhere near it.

I'm leery of talking to women about my attractions when I'm still in the middle of them. I have a strong habit of aligning myself with their anger at men (and repressing my anger at women). It has the effect of hurting the part of myself that is male and imposing a huge stress on my body.

Thanks again for writing and I hope this helps you better understand my concerns.

 

[dark empathy]

Hi Gaat.

I feel a little like a hippocrit saying this, since I'm extremely aware what being on the recieving end of women's s/xual aggression is, however equally I do wonder if your being fare with your attraction here.

Women with warm hearts and sharp minds[/url] pretty much somes up every woman I've fallen in love with. Someone who is a friend and someone I can share my interests with, but someone who has a warm heart, who is capable of compassion and empathy.

This definitely somes up my lady, indeed Empathy is pretty much her defigning characteristic.
The idea that all male attraction is physical only is one of the nastiest ideas in society, especially because it lets calculating women abuse it, particularly with less self aware men who don't realize that just because a woman looks right and says the right things she might not be someone he has an emotional connection with. However, for men who understand that there's more to a relationship than getting layed and looking good because your woman is pretty, then attraction possibly doesn't need to be feerd implicitly.

I can't speak for this woman myself Gaat, but sometimes I do wonder when you talk about "connections through mutual healing" if your rather throwing the metaphorical baby out with the bath water.
Certainly the connection I have with my wife goes pretty much beyond anything I've ever felt and is the most profoundly healing event in my life, however I'd be a fool if I were to say that part of that attraction wasn't! physical, albeit the physical is just part of the entire thing and by no means all of it.

I don't want to sound smug or unfare here, just that one thing i now realize is that to heal, I needed! this, indeed I think part of the problem i felt over the last few years of my recovery is that I knew! what I needed but had no ability to find it for myself, one reason why my attempt to blot out any sort of need for an intimate relationship with a woman failed.


As I said, I'm sorry if this sounds wrong or unfare or as though I'm assuming what works for me works for you. I certainly know better than anyone there are no guarantees with this, and society makes it bloody difficult for men who can't play the game or want something deeper than the expected 2.4 children plus tasteful marital accessaries.



Luke.

 

[SubtleStuff]

Hi Luke,

There is a key difference between my history and yours. The primary person who hurt me in my youth was my mother. Your history, if I remember correctly, is dominated by violence perpetrated by female peers.

This attraction is unhealthy for me because it distracts me from a direction that is healing for me and repeats a pattern I’ve entered since birth. This woman is very unlikely to be willing and/or able to enter a deeply healing connection with me for a very long time, it’s difficult to keep clear of a sexual charge even during an innocently intended hug, and it’s possible that she’s reciprocating my obsession because she’s frustrated with her partner (few women attend CoDA when they are happy with their partners).

I grew up starved for healthy affection (a key survival need for an infant) and my connection with my mother became sexualized when I was a young teen. I suspect some of her interest in me was fuelled by frustration with my father and men in general. The parallels are too close for comfort.

I hope this helps you better understand my concerns. I don't think I'm throwing the baby out with the bath water. I'm re-focusing my attention on activities that are less likely to be triggering and more likely to support my healing process (I'm scheduling a massage and redirecting my thinking to connections with people who are more satisfying and activities that better support me). Embracing my strength in the face of a huge overvaluation of sexual relationships in this culture is very important to my healing process. Sex and Love are not the same thing. For people like me, knowing the difference is key to my healing.

 

[focusedbody]

Gaatt:

Your response makes me think of something I came across in a book recommended here called The Emotionally Unavailable Man.

In it, the author describes co-dependency as an overreaction to things outside oneself and an underreaction to things inside oneself. I wonder if the early struggle with your mom, like me, resulted in this kind of pattern.

For me, it feels as if I consider others constantly before myself. I feel bewildered sometimes by my own experience. It seems easier to imagine what others are thinking. I fear appearing boring or like wallpaper if I don't respond to that. But being patient in knowing what I am feeling or considering brings me into a stronger place, albeit very slowly.

Thanks very much for the topic.

FB

 

[SubtleStuff]

HI FB, this is interesting. Thanks.

In it, the author describes co-dependency as an overreaction to things outside oneself and an underreaction to things inside oneself. I wonder if the early struggle with your mom, like me, resulted in this kind of pattern.

I do tend to react intensely to very ordinary social situations. Certain women can trigger a deep and intense fear that kind of drags me around for a while. The effect on my body can be really challenging. I think there is a pattern established in early youth that is difficult to resolve. I'm seeking (outside myself) the affection that an infant needs. It has nothing to do with sex at all but has a great deal to do with physical affection in a safe emotionally warm environment. It fits that that need would have been in very short supply in my youth and a safe emotional environment would also have been lacking (I've frequently sensed a competitive relationship with my father and still become very frightened by the slightest sign of male competition over a woman's attention). Women often seem to assume that I'm interested in sex when I'm not and they seem to have little interest in stepping out of that pattern. I guess they are looking for "Marlboro Man" rather than "Wounded Boy". Sigh!

Men are safer in one way (no sexual charge at all), but generally (with the exception of paid professional massage therapists) very uninterested in sharing a connection that is about non-sexual physical intimacy that is nurturing for me (and ideally both of us).

The best way I've found out of this is to pay very careful attention to ways that I can nurture myself and keep myself safe. It's often challenging but it seems to help and empowers me to escape the effects of an entire culture that was starving me physically and emotionally when I was very young and makes healing in adulthood extremely difficult. Like you, I'm finding it to be very slow work. Thanks for the reminder to be patient.

Thanks FB, I think I'll look up that book. Thanks for the lead.

 

[learning2remember]

For me there is no such thing as healthy attraction--all of it confuses me and I feel shame. I have noticed, though, that attraction can fade with time. A stunning gave becomes normal after a while. I don't know if that helps.

 

[SubtleStuff]

Hi Learning2Remember,

I've had attractions to healing practices and groups (like this one) that were healthy, but they are not at all like the attraction I feel to a pretty face. My attractions to beautiful women usually set me up to be used emotionally and psychologically (They aren't interested in my healing process and tend to have partners already). I've only known one woman in 10 years who showed an interest in exploring an intimate healing practice with me. She lasted 3 days and then bailed.

Yes, they fade after a while, if I can find a way to avoid them as much as possible and take care of myself in the interim. I'm doing that this time and my feelings are definitely calming down. I'm wondering if I will ever feel safe at that meeting again. I hope so. There were good things about it.

Thanks for the tip!

 

[SubtleStuff]

Hi guys,

This dynamic is evolving. This same woman offered me a hug recently and I refused. It felt very good to refuse it. I'm too strongly attracted to her in a way that doesn't lend to healing and our connection as partners in healing is very weak right now. It felt like I stood up for my healing and hers!

Now I'm encountering my fear of upsetting women. I have to remind myself that she has lots of support (she does through other women) and that she is likely more capable of taking care of herself than I imagine. I also have to remind myself of the other sources of support for my own healing that I have available to myself.

I think this fear of upsetting women has roots in my connection with my mother in early infancy. At that time, it would have been mighty risky to upset her. I suspect I would have feared being totally abandoned (and risking death as a result). It's interesting (and disturbing) at how these patterns of thinking become so deeply entrenched in my body and mind and how challenging they are to release! This particular woman is a remarkably effective (in a number of ways) mirror to see this pattern in myself.

I'm working on releasing it. Writing here helps.

Thanks guys!

 

[dark empathy]

@Gaat, glad you found something that works and broke a pattern which was harmful, I certainly understand the fear of upsetting women thing albeit for very different reasons in my case.
One problem I find thinking about this situation is that my learning had to be almost an opposite experience.
I assumed any! touch between men and women, indeed even between men was either s/xual or aggressive, that if i gave a woman a hug I'd be an abuser myself, that there was absolutely no safe way to touch a woman, s/xually or not, and little by way of safety with a man, indeed I basically assumed all s/x was submission of one sort or another, where one partner got pleasure at another's expense, and sygnals of touch were implicitly tied to this sort of domination . This is one reason i got attracted to theatre, since on stage everything is safe, heck I have done things on stage with girls I'd never have done off it.

of course, disability doesn't help, since if your disabled people assume you have no personal space and that everyone has a right to touch you as they want, (the amount of times I've snarled at people for over intimate efforts to "help" you'd not believe).

With my lady I was able to realize two very specific things. Firstly, that s/x could! involve giving pleasure to another person and experiencing that pleasure, indeed it was this that broke my genophobia, (Alex Comfort's talk of "instrument" and "player" rather than dominant and submissive partner helped here), , and secondly and more importantly that s/x is just one part of a hole set of tactile interactions that express love in many different ways.

At the moment it's still hard for me to understand how to express love through touch with anyone with whome I don't! share a frankly scary connection, albeit I'm trying to work on this, giving hugs to friends of both genders for example (one reason I fancy the idea of a cuddle party, as a personal challenge).

Then again as shown by my bloody awful flashback last night I still haven't got rid of all of this either, indeed I still wonder when it stops.

Luke.

 

[SubtleStuff]

Thanks for writing Luke,

I was told a long time ago (when I was first coming to terms with the effects of my history of sexual abuse) that if I could find someone to sleep with (no sex) that it would help me heal. Later I came across a approach to healing (Karezza) that suggested that three weeks of this practice could heal the effects of abuse. I've since read that many lesbians become frustrated with straight women who become intimate with them in order to heal from the effects of abuse by men (and then leave once that's done!).

I've done much to explore ways to get my need for safe healing touch met (Cranio-sacral and Somatic Experiencing practitioners, Reiki, Quantum Touch, Healing Pathways) and have had some remarkably vivid experiences as to the power of healing touch for me. I consistently ran into trouble with women, however. The only place I seem to be able to overcome this hurdle is through the Cuddle Party model. It's rules around consent are particularly solid. My CoDA meeting has been pretty good for hugs too (their rules around consent are good too) even though this recent trigger was very challenging.

Sex, for me, remains off limits. Even the subtlest of sexual charges can send me into a mental whirlwind that is extremely stressful.

I'm not sure where this ends either. I'm not even sure what "ending" would look like. I would like to be sexually intimate with a woman someday again. It's going to have to be on a completely different foundation compared to what happened in the past. I'm getting close to having a group of people around me who are into recovery, healing, and safe non-sexual touch. It's kind of like a family of choice for me. This is a big change for me.

I imagine as long as I'm pursuing my spiritual interests, I will be exploring at this level in some way or other. That gets into things like questioning how I experience myself (and others). Is this "I" thing actually real or just a figment of my imagination?

It would be nice if the road were a little less rough and the traveling a little easier. These potholes are doozies!

Best wishes on your explorations!

 

[dark empathy]

Hi Gaat.

Interesting again, since I definitely recognize the idea that s/xually charged experiences can instantly touch a fear response, heck this was part of the major basis of my own genophobia.

One thing I'm wondering now though, is if the sf author John Varley got it right in his story The persistance of vision, find out here This was a story I read many years ago in my late teens after my abuse had finished and then again more recently, and one which both attracted and repelled mee.

The story is about a man in a slightly desolate world world of sixties hippy comunes who comes across a community of independently living deaf/blind people.

He talks about their community and how people live, however he also talks a lot about touch and communication, and how developed the sense of communicative touch is, something which varies between individuals, situations, and different times of day quite aside from usual sign language.

One thing he says which is fascinating, is the community have no specific word for s/x at all. it is understood that "speaking" to certain body parts comes with certain sorts of reactions, however there is no specific cultural subset of ideas to refer to those reactions, indeed one problem he has is with a fourteen year old girl who sees such "speech" as quite normal, (well the story was written in the seventies).

Of course yes, varley's ideas are waaaaaay simplified and idealized, since I doubt in reality this sort of community could exist even on a practical level, likewise the stuff about teenaged girls (and it's implied boys), naturally forming s/xual relations is really quite off.

However one idea which Varley communicates very well, and which I am increasingly finding myself, is the idea that when people are actually in the right situation, s/x doesn't matter, or at least the scale of what is and isn't s/xual touch is not an absolutely categorical one.

People who have seen my wife and I together say that it's extremely sensual just to watch us, because where other couples make eye contact and communicate none verbally, we touch each other. Indeed when i read some of the articles on the Kareza site and what Alex Comfort says about Kareza, it actually describes most of what my lady and I do on a regular basis, accept that when we happen to feel like making love, that's what we do, though again it all depends upon the conversation and mood of the thing, for example sometimes very gentle, loving massage can turn into something else, sometimes not, there are times when we make love rather frequently, there are times when we don't for days.

While we do have boundries, they're more communicative than logical, for example there are things my wife knows are triggers for me, and there are things I deliberately refrain from doing since I'm quite aware her previous less than good partners have done said things.

Again though I'm wondering increasingly if our cultural obsession with "this is s/x! this is loving touch! and here is the boundry" is the boundry, is really correct, especially when it comes to the fact that women are quite encouraged culturally to take pleasure in the one and not the other and men almost visa versa, even though as we all know too well women can! be very much just interested in s/x without loving touch and men very much not.

The other problem of course is usually people who talk about this (especially the many women), do it the other way up and want to s/xualize everything, rather than simply have s/x as a subset of a spectrum of communicative touch.

If I really thought there was any point I might write on this subject myself.

Luke.

 

[SubtleStuff]

Hi Luke,

I'm wondering increasingly if our cultural obsession with "this is s/x! this is loving touch! and here is the boundry" is the boundry, is really correct, especially when it comes to the fact that women are quite encouraged culturally to take pleasure in the one and not the other and men almost visa versa

We live in culture where sexual relations have long been associated with curtailed freedom. There is much fear, violence, and trauma to be healed at this level. This is not so true of non-sexual touch. We are currently moving towards a world in which all touch is off limits because of our fear of sexual intimacy and all the baggage it contains. The boundary between what is sexualized/romanticized and what isn't can, in my experience, vary greatly from one person to the next and can be very subtle. Fortunately, there is a movement to increase the availability of safe non-sexual touch amongst friends and total strangers. At this level, it is simply much easier to figure out what is consensual and loving than when powerful biological urges get involved (and all the fantasies that go with them).

Sexual impulses are powerful and routinely used to manipulate others. This, in my understanding, has nothing to do with Love at all. We also structure our culture around sexual relationships making it difficult (particularly for men) to get physical affection (love) outside of a sexual/romantic relationship.

I look forward to the day when Love becomes our collective focus and we structure our world around conscious loving relations. Sex, in that world, becomes a support for deepening and strengthening what is already a loving connection. Currently, most people tend to get overwhelmed by a sexual/romantic attraction, confuse that dynamic with love and then get all upset when the reality starts to become more obvious. Given that, by then, most couples are already committed to marriage, shared property, raising children and/or are simply fearful of being alone again, they stick it out and try somehow to resuscitate a love that is gone rather than face a world alone in which physical affection is rare.

I work to keep my love alive and protect myself from the political games to which I am very vulnerable. It's not easy, but I know the alternative and for me it isn't pretty at all.

Thanks for writing,

 

[dark empathy]

@Gaat, while I'm equally aware of cultural bias you mention, one thing I cannot deny myself is that for my lady and I, the boundry between s/x and love is not quite so rigid, with the idea that one is a biological urge, the one not, again, this is one of the wrong headed cultural notions I am coming to increasingly dislike, the inherent separation between interlect and rationality on the one hand, and emotions on the other, with agape and eros as two very distinct states of love, the one associated with purely rational concern for another and the other a selfisf biological appetite.


It is! possible to have s/xual relations that are primarily other rather than self regarding, this indeed was what finished with my genophobia, similarly it's possible to express tactile love without any idea of it progressing to something else.

The problem for me is that the love had to and did come first. I cannot at the moment imagine sharing any sort of tactile affection with someone else without! feeling as I do about my lady, anymore than I can imagine making love with anyone who isn't her, indeed one thing I now realize about myself is that while I didn't automatically s/xualise all touch, i still did, and to an extent still do, consider all touch from strangers to be a threat, particularly when said touch is in some sense intrusive or violent.

The converse however is also true, there is! a physical component to the sort of chemistry we have, but again that component is only part of a lot of other things, anymore than say the fact that we can just chat about books for hours is the most important thing.

I remember once saying to one of my best guy friends that were one of us female or both of us gay we probably would've got together, or at least wished that we could, something he agreed, but there was no possibility of us becoming closer simply because we were both very definitely streight. Now I do think we could've shared more physical affection in terms of massage etc than we did, indeed I did hug my friend when I last saw him being as we don't see each other much, but whether there could be as much as with my lady I don't think so.

One friend of mine actually once somed things up rather well, she said "s/x with someone you love can be a highly profound experience, s/x on it's own can simply be nice"

And I suspect the same is true of attraction.

You once said to me that I wanted intimacy with a woman, which unfortunately is true. Could I have more physical loving intimacy with a man or with a woman I wasn't attracted to? yes certainly, but I doubt it could reach quite what exists between my lady and I either in intensity or in terms of closeness.

Luke.