"SUICIDE" ( Trigger )

"SUICIDE" ( Trigger )
L

Lloydy

Registrant
I hope you've all read the "SUICIDE" post at the top of the forum?

It's there for a few reasons, firstly to provide a list of resources that are probably better equipped to handle potential suicides than we are.

The other main point is to discourage people from making easy threats, possibly for no more than attention seeking.

But I would also stress that we would NEVER ignore anyone that we felt was in danger.

Having said that, I would like to start some discussion on the different ways that suicide affects both us and those around us.

It's something that has affected me deeply over the years, a member of my family nearly died from a paracetomol OD. My best friend, also abused alongside me at school, killed himself when he was in his early forties. I've been too close for comfort myself after acting-out. And I've lost two other friends and a work colleague due to depression / suicide.

The scariest thing I've ever heard was the family member saying to me after he'd recovered from his overdose - "once I'd made my mind up the night before, a perfect calm washed over me."
That scared the shit out of me!

But that was the result of clinical depression, and is apparently something that others have noted in the same situation.

For me it was different. After the last incident of acting-out I was so overcome with guilt and shame that I actually set about trying to kill myself.

I think?

I drove home, crying, shouting at myself, and in a blind rage deciding there was no other option.
I drove my 4x4 into the garage and set about looking for a pipe to fit over the exhaust and lead into the truck. I couldn't find one, and eventually collapsed in a heap on the floor where I remained for about an hour.
Before my wife returned home I was washed and changed and sitting reading the paper.

Was that a 'serious' attempt?
No, possibly not. My garage is well equipped enough for me to have found something, I could have driven into the river on the way home, it isn't fenced off.
But at the time I did see suicide as the only alternative - didn't I?
Well, I was also in a blind panic and rage - I realise that I wasn't thinking anything like clearly.
I suspect that suicide is something that is the product of a clearer mind than the one I had that day.
"Clearer" - NOT CLEAR!
I don't think anyone with what we would call a clear mind considers suicide.

I'm beginning to think that what I did was a 'cry for help' - but I hadn't even got the courage to let anyone see it.

It's a difficult and very emotive subject, but I believe that if we remove the taboo's that surround it, and express our.....possible desire ( ? ) for suicide, then we'll form a better understanding of the creeping desire.

Dave
 
Dave,

I was ready to leave this site until I saw your post about this.

Since my brother killed himself earlier this year, I have felt that way several times. I don't talk about it because of the warning you gave me.

Today has been the worst. Because this is Thanksgiving in the US. And with everything else that is going on, the pain of my brother's death is magnified today. It just seemed worthless to continue. But I knew I would. Just thought about it real hard.

We never can really know what is in the mind of a suicide. I have spent many hours and days trying to understand what my brother was thinking in the days, hours, minutes and seconds before he pulled the trigger.

To some of us, especially me, it sometimes seems that death would be the answer. No more pain. No more suffering.

But as I am suffering today, and I am. Worse than I imagined, I have to wonder what tomorrow will bring.

See, because I have little hope that it will really change, I will never know if I act on my feelings.

Yes, I have planned it. Even once I tried. I was calm. Seemed the logical thing to do. I did the whole thing. Made my favorite food. Turned on my favorite CD and swallowed over 30 pills.

No, suicide is not the answer. I don't really have the answer right now. But even though I am alone and no one around me here would know or care, I have to remember what Chris' death did to me and what remained of our family. He may have found his own peace. But he devastated the rest of us. And now I have no family at all.

So, if I did it, no one I know personally would suffer. But I have made friends here. Wouldn't they suffer?

Sorry, but you gave me a reason to stay. When I really needed one. Because you brought home to me what it is all about.

Marc
 
Hi Dave,

I'm glad you brought this subject up for discussion.

For me, it seems that making threats of suicide in a forum like this is

(a) a cry for help (perhaps, though not a lot of direct help is available here, since we are not in physical proximity)

(b) a misguided attempt at manipulating those caring souls on this site.

Neither of these represents the true purpose of this site.

If help is needed, then ask for help. No need for 'a cry for help' like suicide here.
Help is what this place is all about. So unnecessary dramatics and threatened self-harm will get you attention and compassion from some, but also threatens the fabric of our MS community.

Which brings me to the second choice, attempts at manipulation by threatenting suicide.

I have heard the opinion many times that suicide (and threatening it) is the ultimate act of selfishness.

A way of telling everyone we know, who has cared about us--"Your efforts are inadequate, you and your love are not enough for me and so here, now take this (suicide)".

I am not sure if I completely share this view of suicide, but I do feel that it is often the act of angry people seeking to hurt others by hurting themselves.

As has been observed, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

This is not the place to deal with suicidal tendencies. Call a suicide hotline or one of the many agencies that exist to deal with such emotionally charged issues.

This is a place for healing and hope. Suicide threats take away energy needed to help the many others coming here for a bit of comfort and solace.

Each of us owes some debt to this place called MaleSurvivor. Without it, I know for sure that my own recovery from sexual abuse would have been much more difficult, if it had come about at all.

So, please, let's do a bit to help preserve the healing fabric of our community.

Our own individual recoveries and others depend upon this place.

Take the advice posted at the top of this forum. Seek professional help, talk it over in private with a friend, trusted family member or crisis line worker.

But please do not use MaleSurvivor to engage in attention-seeking, drama creating, selfish, self pitying threats of harm to yourself.

MaleSurvivor is not set up to deal with that and you will be depriving yourself and many others of the precious gift of recovery.

Does this seem harsh? Perhaps I should have phrased it more delicately, but I feel very strongly about it.

The men and women who come here have all been exploited in some way. And it disturbs me greatly to see more emotional exploitation taking place by those who will not or cannot take the steps to extricate themselves from the endless self-pity and self-centeredness of victimization.

The rush of exhiliration and flow of concern and attention that seems to come to the victim when making such threats seems to be highly addictive, in that the behavior develops into repetitive patterns.

Ultimately, the good will and compassion of the community is so abused by such acting out that a certain hardening of attitude and chilling of goodwill can occur.

You may be saying, "Well, that sure seems to be the case with you, Danny. You are very cruel and unfeeling about this subject."

In truth, I am not insensitive to the pain of others.

It's just that MaleSurvivor is not the place for threats or attempts at suicide to be answered.

There are many other places where such 'cries for help' can be handled by specialists in the field. But not here.

It does bother me and make me angry when people come here and abuse the resources and welcome given to us all.

A threat of violence, whether against oneself or others, is completely unacceptable in this forum.

And from what I understand, will not be tolerated.

Maybe, I've shared enough of my strong feelings on the matter, so I'll shut up for now.

Enjoy life and its promise today.
 
I think Loydy and Danny are right about this. I agree that if any of us become suicidal this is not the place to share that. Members cannot provide the support someone in that state needs. Nor is it good for us to be unable to help someone whom we have grown to care about. People need to feel safe here. I think its positive to share feelings of hopelessness and despair but not suicide plans or threats.


I had suicidal ideation from about the age of nine until about four years ago. My abuse happened in my family and for me the possibility of suicide became like the cyanide pill that some people carry going to war it was the way out, if the pain became intolerable.

My brother according to most of my family died in a freak car accident at twenty-one. Another brother and I believe it was suicide.

For me it was not a cry for help or attention seeking, I acted on it three times, first at eleven and ending at twenty-seven. I never told anyone about it at the time, wish I had been able to seek the help I needed then. Two were pretty narrow escapes; I had some liver damage but its pretty okay now. I was in a trance like state, calm, numb and peaceful. I really believed that I was doing the world a favour. I couldnt see that I might hurt anyone by my death. I usually felt much happier for up to a year after acting out the impulses. Knowing that I was not afraid to do it if necessary gave me a new lease of life.

The two years of therapy I did after the last attempt helped me understand why I was constantly thinking of suicide. When I had a problem my first thought was suicide, I wasnt looking for other solutions. I felt like I didnt need a career, house etc because I wouldnt be around for long, even caring for my teeth seemed pointless. I took anti-depressants for a couple of years and apart from silencing the suicide voice they allowed me to see the healthier part of myself that was smothered by the depression.

My suicide ideation came from the need to escape and from the murderous rage I was holding inside me. The other part is that in my abuse I used to feel like my dad was going to kill me and I was in a crazy way trying to be in control by killing myself.

My suicide ideation is a very old habit but it is pretty much gone now, I still have the cyanide pill but I dont carry it around with me, its in the attic and I am content that it stays there, I dont expect to ever need it.

I am really glad to have survived and happy to be alive. I would say to anyone who is suicidal to talk about it to someone preferably a therapist. Dont feel ashamed of feeling suicidal that makes it worse. Do cry for help and do seek attention where you will get the right kind of help and attention. There are other solutions, we dont need to die to kill the pain, I did not know that back then but its absolutely true.

Rustam
 
A very interesting topic, and one that I think is good to discuss here. Like the others, I think suicide can fall into broad categories.

My neighbor down the street killed himself a few months ago. Had had a brain tumor which they were going to remove, and he killed himself the day before the surgery. His wife called him on the phone and he was talking incoherently, so she rushed home and found him in the backyard, having shot himself in the head. I spoke to my therapist about it, and he said that brain tumors like that can press on portions of the brain, altering the thought processes in doing so to the point that right becomes wrong, and wrong becomes right. A person could then think it is perfectly logical to kill themself, even to the point of thinking that it would be wrong not to. In the case of my neighbor, he apparently was doing what he thought was the right thing to do, equating it to something as mundane as sweeping the floor.

My brother-in-law killed himself about 10 years ago. He was divorced from my sister-in-law at the time, and they had a then-6-year-old daughter. He wrote his daughter a letter in which he told her he always "liked" her. "Liked", not "loved". Strange. Right before he killed himself, he called his mother and went through a laundry list of things she had done to make his life miserable. He then put a .22 revolver to his head and pulled the trigger. Obviously, he felt killing himself was somehow exacting revenge upon his mother.

I have a cousin who's husband killed her with a point-blank shotgun blast to the chest years ago, and then turned the gun on himself and killed himself. I guess that could be a case of "we're all going down together".

So, there's lots of different triggers and factors that lead up to the event. Some physical, some mental, some anger, etc. But I do agree that this site is not equipped to handle the threats, since we obviously are not in proximity to do anything about it, nor can we judge the veracity of the threat, etc.
 
This is very interesting. But there is something that is being missed here. Yes, suicide is a "permanent solution to a temporary problem". But that minimizes what goes through the mind of a suicide.

One thing I have figured out in examining what Chris did was to look inward for the answers. Until March or April of this year, I didn't realize the "root" of the problem. I just thought I was crazy. If it had not been for a column in a newspaper, I would probably still not know.

Some of the people know that my first encounter with a "therapist" after I started down this road wrote it off to "mild depression". If I didn't know better (thanks to some of the people I met here), I would have walked away worse than I was.

Don't dismiss too lightly that the act is the "ultimate act of selfishness". It isn't. Not always anyway. When I was in college we learned that there were actually two main catagories of suicides. One was "situational", meaning an incident of relatively short duration led to the person taking the easy way out. The other was "chronic", meaning that the person had lived for a relatively, and sometimes, lifelong issue for which they saw no other way out. The first type was reactionary and the second was not. The second is most certainly not a "permanent solution for a temporary problem". It is seen more as a "permanent solution to a permanent problem".

While I agree and understand that MS is not the place equipped to handle this, and that the guidelines set in place are for the the good of the community, including the member in such a position, do not rush to judgment.

Since I already made one serious attempt, the likelihood that I would succeed eventually is multiplied exponentially. Thankfully, I do know where to reach out for that and it is not in the typewritten word.

I believe with all my heart that what my brother did was not a selfish act. He had no way of understanding the root of the problem. He may have sought help without even knowing what was triggering him before he made that final decision.

I understand because I sought out help before I came here. Several times. Nothing worked. Because we were not addressing the real problem. My two options seemed to be to remain drugged out of my mind or eventually let it kill me.

That is one of the reasons given for the existence of MaleSurvivor. To educate. To get the word out. But I ask you, how many of you were told about MaleSurvivor before you came here? Not many, I'll warrant. We had to find it on our own and it was because each and everyone of us was aware of our abuse BEFORE we found it. We didn't find it because of depression.

So given the above statement, and the relative lack of understanding and knowledge about the subject, even amongst most clinicians, some choose the only alternative they can think of to end the pain.

I feel as strongly as Danny does about manipulation and realize that it does indeed happen. But sometimes it is indeed "a cry for help". And the posting of the guidelines can direct some people to the sources of help they need.

Now either give me attention or I will hold my breath until I turn blue! :eek:

Just a little attempt at humor to lighten the mood.

Marc
 
BTW, Just re-read Dave's post about how such an action affects us and those around us.

Being one of the worst offenders to try and avoid talking about the after-effects by getting "clinically detached" and talking about the whyfores and the whereas', I will take my wet noodle beating.

First of all, was the shock. The disbelief. Classic grief reactions of pain and loss. Trying to believe I was just dreaming. And then came the guilt. The "if-only's. And there was some validity to some of them. I've discussed this several times with my therapist. She did not tell me it wasn't my fault, she got me to explain what I thought I was guilty of.

Then the blame game. People lashing out at each other in their pain and grief. It continues even after all these months.

I grieved heavily when my mother died. And she was not a suicide. But I have never felt such an overwhelming loss and sadness as I have since Chris did this. They were both the same age when they died. It was too early for either of them.

I know that grief is for what I lost. Not for him. He is in a better place. That is the selfish part of grief that no one ever talks about. That I mourn for what I lost.

His death has affected me differently than others who have died in my life. Because, unlike them, he knew when he was going to die, the moment he pulled the trigger. Death isn't supposed to be that way.

Have to stop now
 
The way I understand it, there is no problem with discussing self-harm issues.

Threatening suicide is the specific taboo.

NOTICE
Do not threaten suicide. We are not equipped to deal with crises of this nature. It puts a huge burden on others in these rooms when someone threatens self-violence and there is nothing they can do.
Click to expand...
I'm appreciative of Dave for posting this thread as a way for us to explore thoughts and feelings about suicide in general.

It is helpful to gain some detachment and some perspective, especially about such an emotionally charged and taboo subject as suicide.

But the real issue here for me is the idea of
threatening, which implies menace or harm directed at others! and suicide which is most definitely a form of violence.

So threats of violence are not allowed here--seems pretty reasonable to me. Just because the threat is of harm to oneself does not change the fact the the threat itself is directed at the hearer/reader.

Maybe we should have another thread just about the amount of violence and threats of violence, in addition to suicide, that takes place among male survivors.

What's that all about anyway?

Regards,
 
I understand that the normal male succeeds in suicidal, because it is a means to a end, and not a cry for help.
When I was unable to work, and was being turned down for social security. I would sometimes look at my life insurance policy and think I would be a better support to my wife dead than alive. It never went farther than that. If I had lost the court case who knows? I do know I was not planning on let anyone know that I would end my life. Also I would have to make it look like a accident so the insurance would pay of.
 
Avatar
I didn't really want to die, I just wanted to end the pain.
Click to expand...
Isn't this the classic 'cry for help'?

I don't know for sure, but the easy and quick answer must surely be "yes"
I just can't imagine wanting to die, but I can imagine ending the pain. Perhaps suicide happens when the balance of pain becomes too much?

So, if we can reduce the pain, and at the same time revitalise our lives then we're 'cured'
The trouble with that ( deliberately simplistic ) theory is that life just isn't that simple, but it's still a goal worth strivivng for isn't it?


Another aspect of suicide that is maybe particular to groups of people like us is the feelings and thoughts of revenge that we have before our planned demise.
Dissasociation is something very common to us, I certainly had it in my list of coping stratergies.
I would create long and complex day-dreams about how people would react after I killed myseld. I would compose suicide notes in my head that would be so damning that everyone who had ever crossed me would be locked up and left to rot for the rest of their days.
My friends and family would deliver glowing eulogies and I would be hailed as a hero and remembered for ever.

I think the reality would have been very different, in fact I know it would.
And as the day-dream went on this reality would creep in, and I would begin to imagine the grief and struggle to understand that the people left would go through. That wasn't vanity on my part, just experience from attending the funerals of suicide victims and talking to my brother.

Dave
 
Dave,

I do understand wanting to die. Very well. It comes from the feeling that living is more hurtful than dying. After all, you supposedly would not feel anything if you die.

I still feel that often. Wishing I was just dead. But it's because of something that is happening at the moment.

Yeah, what Avatar describes is a cry for help. Anything to end the pain, short of death itself.

You brought up the DID. Interesting and informative. I have had those same thoughts and fantasies.

But in my case, the DID is turning into anything but a daydream. I "leave" now. And I mean it. I have no memories of what happens. But at this point, I don't believe that the others seek this answer.

I cannot express enough how grateful I am that you had the moxie to bring this up.

Marc
 
I think the clichs used about suicide are taken as common sense because they are repeated so often we think they must be true. The cry for help one in my case explains nothing. Acting out suicide impulses happens when we have stopped crying for help or hoping to get it. People may use it as a way to manipulate others in their lives but really suicidal people have given up hope of help.

The attention seeking one is another blaming clich. If you kill yourself you dont get attention. It may be the case for some, but those serious about suicide are not looking for attention they have given up trying to get it. The selfish act seems to me to be a blaming misunderstanding. It explains nothing. When someone attempts suicide even when it is not one hundred percent guaranteed to succeed they are not being selfish. They often have the distorted reality that they are doing those close to them a favour. They cannot see the harm they are doing to others and to call them selfish on top of what they are going through can hardly be helpful.

I have been close to some people who have killed themselves, the grief and guilt for those left behind is terrible but I cant say in a couple of cases that they made the wrong decision.

What Avatar says makes sense to me and I dont see it as selfish in the least, having suicide as an option does make life more liveable, it was a coping mechanism for me, I dont really need it now as I said, but I dont see it as a selfish thing.

Rustam
 
If we do the 'attention seeking' or 'cry for help' failed attempt, and nobody gets to know about it at that time, are we testing ourselves?

Nobody knew about my failed attempts or ( maybe ) serious thoughts of suicide when I was at my lowest, so who was I doing / thinking these things for?
It could only have been for myself, so "why?"

I already felt like shit, I was so low I could see nowhere else to go. Was the suicide thing a reinforcement of that 'shit' feeling - another level of 'shit' I hadn't explored before?

It's so very hard to know if I was serious or not, if I had found a length of hose to fit my exhaust pipe would I have gone through with it?
That's something I'll never know, and therefore it makes the appraisal of what I actually did guesswork.

Dave
 
great topic Lloydy:

i dont believe there is a simple answer for why one threatens or commits suicide. i am not a therapist so i do not know the professional explanations.

for me, there are times when the pain becomes GREAT and i feel little hope for anything better. this is when i struggle with suicidal thoughts the most.

i thankfully have never attempted it. i tell myself that my higher power has a time and place for my end and that to creat my own time/place is a violation of that power's will for me and WRONG.

also, i try to think of how such a thing would hurt the people that love me. and, how I DESERVE TO LIVE even if it is in a state of deep pain. these are the things that help me get through those times.


bec
 
I know I went through times of deep despair, I felt like nothing in the World was right, I felt that everyone was against me.

I tried to do it, but I felt it would cause so many problems if I did, I was almost there, nearly did it, didn't do it, and walked away from the situation feeling so warm at not doing it, and to express my love for my family.

I suppose they went through so much! I could not hurt them by doing it, they put up with me as a broken kid, they never understood the pain.

They never will, so many years down the line of family expecting you to just forget.

I could not live with my mind as a child, but somehow I did.

I really want to cry to my teddy, just as I did as a kid, I find it hard to cry, but crying is the only way ourt. Taking myself back to the hurt and addressing it is the only way of making any sense of the past,

ste
 
I don't know how I came to find this site....it happened whenI was at an all time low....had I not found it?????????????

I didn't think about it at the time...I wasn't thinking about anything (hence the danger of my situation at that time).

I could have been a statistic!

I'm not - thanks again..Rik
 
I am new to this forum. And I thank whatever forces brought this site into existance.

1. The act of suicide is not an act of selfishness.
It is an act of definiteness.

2. Anyone who thinks differently is compict in the misknowledge that suicide is an act of selfishness.
 
I've been meaning to add my two cents for a while.

First, I'm sorry about your schoolmate, Dave. And also for all the others who have lost loved ones to suicide.

I know that when I was most recently suicidal, the thing I was most concerned about was my dogs, who would take care of them. But it crossed my mind t try to find a home for them, or even take them to the sholter so I could go ahead and die. If I had been a little bit more desparate, or if it had gone on longer, who knows. So I don't know exactly how that mixes into the debate about selfishness.

I do know that I was not looking for attention. I was aware enough that I thought if I just wanted attention then I should be a man and f*cking ask for it. So when I wanted to die I really wanted not just to escape the desparation but also I think to murder myself. I thought that people like me shouldn't be alive. I thouhgt that I was irreveribly damaged, that I had died a long time ago and that it was time to be done with this stupid mimicry of life, that it was like I was just killing my body, finishing the job that was done long ago.

So I can see that if I was just a little bit more delusional, or if something had happened in the outside world to mess up my life a little bit more, it could have pushed things over the edge.

I guess I don't think its a weakness to kill yourself, I wouldn't judge it. I also understand why the people left behind might be furious at the person.

Jim
 
James
I think it's both things, selfish and definite.

To me the selfishness comes from the overwhelming feeling that "I want to kill myself, with no regard to those around me"
Which seems to be the main reason people are giving for backing down from suicide. It doesn't matter if it's close family, friends or your dogs, that feeling and knowledge of the distress we would leave in our wake is, for many of us, a greater feeling than the wish to end it all.

But, in many of my posts I also say that we as Survivors need a degree of selfishness, although I also say that it never be at others expense. I guess that I mean we should try and put ourselves first while we're recovering.

Suicide is a very definite act, that's a fact. But it's one where we only have so much control. After the act we have nothing.

I think I understand the degree of despair that makes suicide a serious option, and it's not a fixed thing; every person has their limit. We also have different support in place.
But once we are in the 'support' system then there should be a more open discussion of the 'suicide option' in an attempt to provide a safe escape from it.
Neither of the two people who's attempt and 'successful' ( I hate to use that word for this ) suicide quests were in any kind of 'help situation'.
My brother was given all the help he needed immediately after, and he's 100% confident that it will never happen again. It's too late for Mick.

Dave

PS. Welcome to MS James, I hope you find the support and help you might need right here.
 
COULD BE A POSSIBLE TRIGGER(S)

I think that this subject is really really great to have out in the open.

I wil tell a bit about my three attempts and try to put them in context of myself at that time.

My first attempt and my closest to sucess was at the age of 23. I had been transferred by the bank I worked for (less than a year after being a street kid and prostitute and heroin addict, and still an alcoholic.) to a small town in Southern Ontario. One fall day I was out hunting rabbits with a 303 rifle. I was walking down a road in bright sunshine and all of a sudden I just turned the rifle around and shot myself in the chest. No thinking before hand or anything just an impulsive act out of nowhere. Now as I sat on the ground about 6 feet from where the gun went off I never wanted to live more than right then. I missed everything; bone, veins, arteries, heart. Collapsed a lung and that was it. I drove myself to the hospital and bullshit my way by telling authorities it was a hunting accident. Fast forward to 1972. Married 5 years and home drunk on scotch. Had a fight with my wife. Just up and went into the bathroom and swallowed about 75 sleeping pills and washed it down with a big drink of scotch. Went out for a walk. Nicole found the empty bottle of pills and called 911. Woke up in the hospital. Spent 6 weeks in the pschiatric unit and managed to get out without revealing my past. Fast forward to 1999. October. Went to the inline skating rink. Got pissed off. Went down to Lake Ontario to think. Next thing I know I am taking off my clothes and walking into the water. Just decided to swim till I drowned. Got out about waist deep and someone from the beach asked me not to do it. Looked around and it was a guy with a dog. Came ashore and there was nobody there. Go figure.

What this is all leading up to is the fact that I was not aware of every planing any of these events. They just came out of nowhere. It was almost as if they had a life of their own. Was I crying out for help. I dont know. Was I being selfish ? I dont know. I had not planned any of them.
What I do know now is that it is not a solution to the problem but an ending. A final curtain admitting that the perps had won. And that I cannot abide now.

So all I can say is that I do not want to see this particular road taken by anyone at all. It accomplishes nothing except that the person will never be able to live life as he was meant to.

If this is triggering I apologize. Just wanted to let my brothers in on facts without dramatization or self analysis.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top