Strip club fallout

[PAS]

Ok...

Most of you know I'm getting married next weekend.

And of course, the big bachelor party for my fiance happened last weekend. Some girlfriends would be worried about the last "big bachelor bash" but hell - I even helped organize the event as he seemed really sad that it was not coming together a few months ago. He seemed so sad, and knowing that he's got issues with feeling loved and accepted I even helped organize the thing, knowing full well that by 12:00 pm his friends would have his face buried in some stripper's boobs (or other parts)... Prior to the event I thought I was ok with the whole thing - that it's a "rite of passage" and he'd somehow feel cheated if he didnt have a party like that. I tried SO hard to be the "hip, cool, modern, low-maintenance" girlfriend that I didnt even consider how I'd feel about it.. I made it "all about him"... and neglected my own feelings... didnt even consider them.

But as the night wore on, I started to realize that I was NOT ok with what was going on. And I sat in my bed and cried the whole night and didnt sleep until he got home (with his brother) at about 3am. Most of Sunday I was kind of weepy and wanting "details" - and most of them hurt. No touching happened, but there defeintely were a few table dances ordered for him by "the boys".. its a total nude club so the dancers were wearing nothing but shoes.

And also it appears the whole night eventually turned sour as one of the dancers started running a "scam" on the guys and did a few dances without asking for money up front and then they wound up owing a lot of money, which they didnt have and they got threatened and kicked out of the bar, and almost beat up by the bouncer. Not a good night by all accounts. And C came home and told me about the bouncer.. he seemed pretty scared a few hours later.

Anyhow, on Sunday I was pretty weepy, and I know that my own inner "i'm not worthy" insecurities were triggered. I've come on this site a lot to talk about my "issues" of feeling rejected, insecure, not wanted or accepted by my abusive dad, combined with a high level of stress (wedding planning and work demands are pretty high right now) manifesting themselves in my mind as obsessive thoughts about my fiance with other women, and of course on Sunday the mental image of him at the strip club became too much. I was pretty sad and shut down to my fiance on Sunday and we even got into a few scraps. But hell - EVERY guy should be aware before he goes to a strip club that their wives/girlfriends will NOT want to touch them when they get home - even the coolest of wives still get grossed out that skanky strippers might just be turning their hustbands on. Its a fact of life and he damn well knew what he was getting into when he went and went to that bar!

OK.. since Sunday my fiance's been beating himself up for going to the strip club. But how the hell did he know that I'd be hurt? I didnt even know that it would bother me until it was too late, and besides, knowing his friends, if he told them he "wasn't" up to going to a strip club he'd never have heard the end of it. So i"m sure he went along with the guys because a) he probably felt obliged and b) he didnt know that it would bother me and c) he probably didnt know it would bother him.... which I'm starting to think that it did.

Is there any SA issues that you think might be triggering for him here? I hightly think that there would be - for him to go to a place where its obvious that men really are sexually exploiting others in a really obvious way must somehow be difficult for him to see and experience, considering he's been struggling with being sexually victimized by someone (a man) himself. I know that his experiences (I'm sure you can all relate) make him highly sensitive to anything that smells like victimization, especially sexual victimization. And also maybe he felt that he didnt have a choice but to go along with the boys considering they were throwing a big party for him, the whole feeling like he's got to 'be macho" even though he felt like NOT going might come into play here.

I am suspecting that there are some SA issues going on and he's just not aware of them and he's letting his feelings just run wild. He's pretty out of control with his anger ever since Sunday morning and its pretty ugly and painful at home right now. Not only do I feel pretty hurt by my own insecurities being triggered, but he's running around the house just rubbing salt in my wounds. You'd think that if he really wanted to "rebuild the closeness that he feels he shattered by going to the strip club" he'd be all about being kind and sweet and open to me.. but he's not.

HE's back in "attack dog mode" - screaming at me (last night) when I tried to explain how his going to the strip club triggered my abuse insecurities... You'd think he'd be a bit relieved and see that perhaps he's a bit off the hook regarding my feelings as I was pretty much owning up to the fact that it was really MY insecurities that were triggered.. and how was he to know that it would bother me when I dint know that it would bother me? But nooo....

Instead he turned it on me and instead of showing compassion to my feelings and to me opening up to him, he started screaming at me things like "you really hate yourself dont you?? You're NEVER going to love yourself, you need serious help, etc. etc.. how the hell can you love someone else if you cant love yourself, you're just like your dad, etc. etc."

It SO hurts SO bad when he says stuff like taht to me. Not only do I feel insecure about him burying his face in some perfect-bodied strippers "parts" and that he might compare them to mine, but that he's finding OTHER things that he wants to "fix" about me (my feelings, my self-esteem, etc. etc.) And the lack of compassion about my feelings and my insecurities was just ASTOUNDING. I opened up to him about my insecurities, and I got attacked.

Its hard not to draw a parallel to the fact that he wants to fix my emotional self to the feeling that he just doesnt accept me for who I am.. which is at the root of my "stripper insecurities"!!!!!!!!!!!

Any insights from any of the guys on this? Do you think that if you were in his shoes you'd also be experiencing some SA triggers too? Do you think he'll be able to calm down and just STOP this destructive behaviour? How do I talk to him about this when i"m already hurt and he keeps digging himself in deeper and deeper? How do I let him know what he's doing is only making things worse between us and making me more and more NOT want to talk to him or touch him?

And most of all - is there any hope for him to someday learn some compassion instead of attacking me for showing vulnerability will he EVER learn to show some compassion and support for me? Why does he NEVER seem to "get it" when I try to tell him that its just making everything worse to attack me when I'm down and vulnerable? This I think is probably the most hurtful and worst dynamic in our relationship - I want to feel safe to open up and reveal my vulnerabilities and insecurities with him -and when I do often I am met with distance and discomfort (at best) or attacked (at worst). How can I ever teach him how destructive this is? Is he going to be so mired in his selfishness forever that he'll never get to be supportive???

Help!! I'm feeling SO hopeless about this particular dynamic in our relationship. I have told him over and over till I'm blue in the face but it never seems to change anything.

P

 

[gina]

And most of all - is there any hope for him to someday learn some compassion instead of attacking me for showing vulnerability will he EVER learn to show some compassion and support for me? Why does he NEVER seem to "get it" when I try to tell him that its just making everything worse to attack me when I'm down and vulnerable? This I think is probably the most hurtful and worst dynamic in our relationship - I want to feel safe to open up and reveal my vulnerabilities and insecurities with him -and when I do often I am met with distance and discomfort (at best) or attacked (at worst). How can I ever teach him how destructive this is? Is he going to be so mired in his selfishness forever that he'll never get to be supportive???

This makes me feel for you. Is he, or has he been to counseling? Perhaps even the two of you should address this with a couples counselor before you make this final step into marriage. If the two of you to have this dynamic now, it probably won't just change on it's own.

*hugs*

 

[Lloydy]

PAS

And the lack of compassion about my feelings and my insecurities was just ASTOUNDING. I opened up to him about my insecurities, and I got attacked.

"Attack is the best form of defence"
I have no idea who said it, but it's absolutely true.
While he's attacking you he's safe, you're feeling "astounded" and defensive, so the focus shifts from him to you.
You then feel so shell-shocked you forget what you were going to say to him. Or that's the plan according to him anyway.
I did this for years, I was damned good at it as well.
I could turn anything into my wifes fault instantly, then I 'become the victim' once again.
"oh poor me"

I want to feel safe to open up and reveal my vulnerabilities and insecurities with him -and when I do often I am met with distance and discomfort (at best) or attacked (at worst). How can I ever teach him how destructive this is? Is he going to be so mired in his selfishness forever that he'll never get to be supportive???

It's not pretty, and it took ME to break it. And I must admit that it's still easy to slip back into that tactic, but she recognises it now - and takes no crap!
The problem you might have is getting your boyfriend to see this kind of behaviour for what it is.
I think it's the last scraps of victim mentality at work, it's bloody hard accepting that we aren't victims, we want to believe that we aren't. But the unkown scares us, and the alternative to not being a victim is what? We don't know. There's just uncertainty out there.
I know that life for 'normal' people is also full of uncertainties, but being a victim has a constancy about it, it's also very easy.
Becoming a functioning and compassionate Survivor is slow, we discover that when we move away from 'victim' things aren't as scary as we imagined ( hopefully ) and we try a bit more.
How long he'll be "mired in his selfishness" is anyone guess, but his sefishness is probably a big part of his defence, and perhaps he won't 'allow' you your safe place to "reveal my vulnerabilities and insecurities with him." until he feels safe with his own?

Perhaps the stripper experience with all it's sexual exploitation overtones did trigger him.
It very likely did.
Where do you go for comfort then? to what "you know" is where. Back to our old ways that served US well for so long.

The strip club was very likely a bad experience for him.
Get a bunch of drunk guys on a stag night in a place like that and all hell breaks loose.
NOT neccesarily with the girls, most clubs discourage contact with a show of force from the bouncers - here in the UK anyway.
But the behaviour of the guys themselves could be very triggering.
Can you imagine the sort of sexual bravado and innuendo that went on? best not try
But if he's got issues surrounding sex, then all his mates bragging in his ear and making comments isn't going to help.
I know just how uncomfortable I feel at times like that, and I work in a very macho environment that generally has no limits to its coarseness!
But seeing expoitation before my eyes, and having it reinforced by my mates is a double whammy.
I might know that my mates are just spouting drunken bullshit, but at the time it adds to my already confused thoughts. And being drunk myself just makes it easier for the guilt and shame I already feel for just being there in the first place to take hold.

These days I decline the offer and get a taxi home when a 'club' is mentioned. I get some stick for it, but hey- I've been insulted by professionals before now, NOTHING my mates say bothers me any more!
But of coarse, it's not really an option when it's your own stag night.

It's a difficult one PAS, but my bet is he feels so guilty and ashamed about even being there that it might be a good starting point?

Dave

 

[Bubbles]

Hi Pas

Well, I would have probably done exactly the same as you, organised a stripper, pretended I was cool with everything, even though I wouldnt be. Maybe its a way of trying to hide our insecurities.

Your reaction is normal for someone under a lot of stress and feeling insecure. Im sure a lot of normal confident women would feel a bit uneasy about their guy going to a strip club. Its a normal reaction for women to feel a bit jealous and threatened by someone they consider to be more attractive. Just because you might believe that theyre better looking, have better bodies etc, doesnt mean that a guy finds them more attractive. This is something that I need to get through my head too, it seems a lot easier when looking at it objectively. No matter how much a guy loves you, thinks youre the most sexiest thing ever he will still get turned on by a naked woman. Sorry, Im stating the obvious to you, you probably know that already. Knowing that doesnt reduce those feelings though does it lol.

I know how you feel about his reaction to you. Ive had it a lot in the past. It feels like your feelings arent valid, then you feel ashamed of feeling that way and that he just doesnt care.. Well, in my opinion, thats not the case. I used to hate it when my bf did this, Id feel so small, as if it was my fault for making a big deal out of nothing. Then I realised that the reason he did this was because he felt as if I was having a go at him, as if I was saying that he wasnt good enough, he felt hurt and inedaquate, felt like he had hurt me and couldnt cope with it. I realised that he lashed out at my hurt because he felt so guilty. Ive done it myself, Ive expressed anger because Ive felt hurt or upset. Its difficult at the time to see it that way, all we want is them to listen and understand our hurt, they see it as an attack and lash out to defend themselves. Its nothing personal though, its just a natural reaction, hes not trying to attack you when youre feeling vulnerable, hes probably just feeling attacked himself.

Were now a lot better than we used to be. Now I make a point of saying I feel instead of you make me feel. That way its doesnt sound as if Im blaming him. I know theres nothing worse than trying to tell someone how hurt you feel only to be put down, made to feel like youre to blame and, basically feel worse than you did originally. Sorry, Im a bit smashed right now on drink (been through the mill myself the past few weeks and still trying to get over it), trying to remember what really helped me communicate my feelings more effectively to him. It was either a book I read or a d/l and it helped a lot. Made me realise not to take it personally, just say things in a different way to get a better result. If you think it might help you then let me know and Ill try and find it and tell you what it was J

 

[PAS]

>>>"Attack is the best form of defence"
>>>>I have no idea who said it, but it's absolutely true.

>>>>While he's attacking you he's safe, you're feeling "astounded" and defensive, so the focus shifts from him to you.

>>>You then feel so shell-shocked you forget what you were going to say to him. Or that's the plan according to him anyway.

>>>I did this for years, I was damned good at it as well.

>>>I could turn anything into my wifes fault instantly, then I 'become the victim' once again.
"oh poor me"

While I can understand this behaviour, for the life of me I dont understand what is so threatening about me being vulnerable and admitting my insecurities.. why he finds me admitting weakness as something to attack me on? You'd think that someone showing their vulnerabilities would make him feel LESS threatened?

Man what you just wrote above is TOTALLY how my dad operated and still does. He just seems to find a way to make everything he does, his whole abusive behaviour (which he's at it again with a vengeance lately) into MY fault, kind of sets me up to be abused and then goes ahead and does it because dammit he's got every bizarre-logic justification why he should treat me the way he does.

No wonder I go BALLISTIC when my fiance does this to me. When this used to happen to me when I was a kid I really WAS a victim, helpless and powerless.

>>>>I want to feel safe to open up and reveal my vulnerabilities and insecurities with him -and when I do often I am met with distance and discomfort (at best) or attacked (at worst). How can I ever teach him how destructive this is? Is he going to be so mired in his selfishness forever that he'll never get to be supportive???

>>>>>It's not pretty, and it took ME to break it. And I must admit that it's still easy to slip back into that tactic, but she recognises it now - and takes no crap!

>>>>The problem you might have is getting your boyfriend to see this kind of behaviour for what it is.

It really is. He just doesnts want to see it. I often wonder if when he's doing it he's kind of in an "alternate mental state" - that he just cannot see what he's doing. I recall some discussions after the fact when he's been screaming and freaking out on me, even to the point of pushing me around and grabbing my arms, the next day he'll go "how did you get that bruise on your arm" and He'll have NO idea that he did it to me!!!

Its so hard for me to "take no crap" when I'm so hurt and wounded myself. I grew up in a home where there was a hell of a lot of unrestrained anger going around, a lot of chaos a lot of fear and intimidaion, bullying, verbal and emotional abuse. Its VERY difficult for me to stand up to my fiance and say ENOUGH and to STOP IT when he's being rough on me. Usually I'm levelled into a crumpling heap of crying sobbing humanity when he starts to freak out on me.

So in a way I'm not only a "secondary victim" to my fiance's abuse, I'm also a victim of abuse myself. And too often my fiance's reactions mimic very closely what my dad used to do.

I can't forget that my dad used to turn things on me like you described above as a means to justify the abuse that was about to come. Its a difficult dynamic to break out of, to believe that I really am safe, even with my fiance. Things have gotten pretty heated and physical a few times. He's a big guy and I've had a few bruises. I fully dont beleve that I'm safe - especially as sometimes C's behaviour and my dad's are so similar.

>>>>>I think it's the last scraps of victim mentality at work, it's bloody hard accepting that we aren't victims, we want to believe that we aren't.

What's sad is I have grown up with a dad who thinks that he's been victimized by his children. I think you've got to be pretty bad off to think that you are a victim and that your kids have more power than you do. Its pretty sad... but he acts as if I'm somehow victimizing him day in and day out. Its pretty pathetic. Sometimes I'm not alawys sure who's the parent and who's the kid.

>>>>I know that life for 'normal' people is also full of uncertainties, but being a victim has a constancy about it, it's also very easy.

>>>>Becoming a functioning and compassionate Survivor is slow, we discover that when we move away from 'victim' things aren't as scary as we imagined ( hopefully ) and we try a bit more.

I can understand that too as I'm also a survivor of some pretty horrific verbal and psychological torture. But for me I guess I have used that experience as a way to NOT base my current behaviour on - to use it as a lesson on how NOT to treat people.

>>>>How long he'll be "mired in his selfishness" is anyone guess, but his sefishness is probably a big part of his defence, and perhaps he won't 'allow' you your safe place to "reveal my vulnerabilities and insecurities with him." until he feels safe with his own?

Maybe. It cant come too soon if you ask me.

>>>>Perhaps the stripper experience with all it's sexual exploitation overtones did trigger him.
It very likely did.

>>>Where do you go for comfort then? to what "you know" is where. Back to our old ways that served US well for so long.

>>>>The strip club was very likely a bad experience for him. Get a bunch of drunk guys on a stag night in a place like that and all hell breaks loose. NOT neccesarily with the girls, most clubs discourage contact with a show of force from the bouncers - here in the UK anyway.

Here too.

>>>But the behaviour of the guys themselves could be very triggering. Can you imagine the sort of sexual bravado and innuendo that went on? best not try

Yeah.. i read this post from you and actually tried to imagine.. the mental images were pretty upsetting. Best not imagine about this anymore.

>>>But if he's got issues surrounding sex,

He does.

>>>>then all his mates bragging in his ear and making comments isn't going to help.

Especially as the guy who molested him was kind of a "good old boy"... really loud and aggressive...

>>>>I know just how uncomfortable I feel at times like that, and I work in a very macho environment that generally has no limits to its coarseness!
But seeing expoitation before my eyes, and having it reinforced by my mates is a double whammy.

It really must have scared him... I thought that it might.

>>>>I might know that my mates are just spouting drunken bullshit, but at the time it adds to my already confused thoughts. And being drunk myself just makes it easier for the guilt and shame I already feel for just being there in the first place to take hold.

Yeah.. my fiance had guilt issues about sex long before he was molested.. his mom's pretty repressive and backwards about sex to begin with, then he gets "groomed" by a pedophile and gets even MORE confused..

I feel so bad for him being so mixed up and hurting about sex.

>>>>These days I decline the offer and get a taxi home when a 'club' is mentioned. I get some stick for it, but hey- I've been insulted by professionals before now, NOTHING my mates say bothers me any more!

Yeah.. C has indicated that the next time he'll probably not go if he's asked. He indicated that the whole day just went from so happy and "innocent" (we went biking on some beautiful paths in the morning) into a guys-only afternoon, which degenerated into the strip club evening. The evening even ended up with one of the dancers and the bouncer trying to rip them off (told them to pay up for dances they never "ordered") and then kicked them out, just about beat up my fiance as he kicked them out. EEsh.

>>>>But of coarse, it's not really an option when it's your own stag night.

Nope.

>>>It's a difficult one PAS, but my bet is he feels so guilty and ashamed about even being there that it might be a good starting point?

Prolly a good way to look at it.

Thanks again for your great insights. I dont know if you know just how much I appreciate your views.

P

 

[PAS]

>>>>Well, I would have probably done exactly the same as you, organised a stripper, pretended I was cool with everything, even though I wouldnt be. Maybe its a way of trying to hide our insecurities.

Maybe it was. I didnt realize that I even WAS insecure about this until it happened. I guess I have my own brand of "female bravado" that I never realized I had.

>>>>Your reaction is normal for someone under a lot of stress and feeling insecure. Im sure a lot of normal confident women would feel a bit uneasy about their guy going to a strip club.

Yeah.. I had a lot of work stress and I realized that once that was reduced (old boys club here at work) it helped to ease the anxiety about what happened somewhat. Also a bit of time has passed and time does heal things somewhat.

>>>>No matter how much a guy loves you, thinks youre the most sexiest thing ever he will still get turned on by a naked woman. Sorry, Im stating the obvious to you, you probably know that already. Knowing that doesnt reduce those feelings though does it lol.

I know. Its so scary though.. I just have had my heart broken SO many times by guys who left me for the "next best thing" that I can't help it to compare myself. And I know I cant compete against a stripper on looks.

>>>>I know how you feel about his reaction to you. Ive had it a lot in the past. It feels like your feelings arent valid, then you feel ashamed of feeling that way and that he just doesnt care..

In this case he DID understand my feelings. I think it was a case of overwhelming guilt for hurting me, combined with the shame and confusion going to such a sexually exploitive place.

>>>>I realised that he lashed out at my hurt because he felt so guilty.

Thats such a tough one. I mean I'm already hurting.. I just wonder if he'll ever be able to "get over himself" enough to be supportive when I need him to, instead of being wounded and looking at himself when I really could use some support?


>>>Its difficult at the time to see it that way, all we want is them to listen and understand our hurt, they see it as an attack and lash out to defend themselves.

Yeah I didnt mean it as a personal attack on him, just stating that I was actually hurt by the strip club visit, I would think that considering a) I didnt KNOW that it would bother me and b) I kind of set it up that he'd be not so guilty about it.

>>>Its nothing personal though, its just a natural reaction, hes not trying to attack you when youre feeling vulnerable, hes probably just feeling attacked himself.

But in the end, although he's not trying to attack me because I'm vulnerable, thats exactly what happens. I do get attacked for showing emotion. He takes a lot of my sadness and difficult emotions personally.. they could be caused by a bad day at work, a run-in with my dad, but HE seems to take it all on himself. Its so weird. How could he possibly think that all of this was HIS fault? WHy does he choose to use my anger and sadness as a means to beat up on himself?

>>>Were now a lot better than we used to be. Now I make a point of saying I feel instead of you make me feel. That way its doesnt sound as if Im blaming him.

I do make a very big point of doing that. However it doesnt seem to register. I think when he's in one of his self-beating up modes that I could tell him that he's the King of the world and all he'd hear was "you're crap". Its hard to compete with a STRONG inner filter.

>>>>I know theres nothing worse than trying to tell someone how hurt you feel only to be put down, made to feel like youre to blame and, basically feel worse than you did originally.

Yep. Its so painful. I was already at a very low point and looking for him to say somethig supportive - that he loved me, that it was just a stupid night and that he'd never do anytyhing to hurt me, that the whole night made him uncomfortable (even if it didnt a little white lie would have helped somewhat).. but he didnt. He attacked me for being insecure.

>>>>Sorry, Im a bit smashed right now on drink (been through the mill myself the past few weeks and still trying to get over it), trying to remember what really helped me communicate my feelings more effectively to him. It was either a book I read or a d/l and it helped a lot. Made me realise not to take it personally, just say things in a different way to get a better result.

I'm wondering how I could have said it differently. I've tried to do it SO many times and just keep getting the same result. I am just so frustrated I dont want to bother opening up to him anymore, but htats not the solution either. That will just drive a wedge between us for a time and that's no good.

>>>If you think it might help you then let me know and Ill try and find it and tell you what it was

If you could find the book that would be great.
I'll be gone from the site after tomorrow until sometime in Mid October.. but if you get it during that time send me a PM and I'll pick it up when I get back.

P

 

[Lloydy]

PAS
I hope you catch this before you go away.

I'm so pleased that you found some time to thrash this issue out before your big day. It might not be resolved in the way you both hoped for, but at least it isn't festering away underneath everything else, waiting for the trigger that turns an issue into a riot.

When two people commit to each other I think something special happens.
There's something there that means full trust is exchanged. Maybe your husband will see that and begin to recognise that you are actually serious about him?
Sounds stupid? well, I only figured that my wife fully trusted me after 25 years of marriage when I disclosed to her.

Make your wedding day a special day, and I look forward to wishing you a happy 30th Anniversary.

Here's to your marriage gal!

Dave

 

[PAS]

Thanks so much for your support!!

My stress on the "strip club" thing is easing a bit.. my dad's being a bit of a nutcase but at least my fiance stepped up to the plate to protect me right now. I think we both realise that its the "big time" right now and we better not let ourselves get all haywire!!!

"See you" in a few weeks.

P