Something curious to me

  • Thread starter Thread starterVN
  • Start date Start date
Something curious to me
ok nobby if ten thousand people masturbate to a porn movie and the star is me how fucking far down on my list of those to forgive is my perp? are each of those people going to apologize to me and ask my forgivness? believe it or not i do not watch porn or masturbate because of the things that bastard did to me . also unless your talking about childporn ,the people who do it are not forced to do it they do it for money ,they want you to watch it and buy it . its a really weird example of doing something wrong i think ,i thought you meant something like lying to somebody or something like that. i think you have it backwards as to who was wronged here .we were not the perp! if your guilty for watching the porn what about the asshole that made it ,porn makes me physicaly sick because i have been in front of the camera,its so hot there ,lights so bright, how long will i wait for everyone who watched it to ask my forgivness? it seems your dealing with so many unknown factors ,for me its black and white ,he hurt me ,i hate him ,and im perfectly happy that way. your dealing in what if;s im dealing in what happened.personaly i cant see forgiving as a good thing or a bad one its something people either do or dont do. kinda like masturbating to a porn movie. if i follow that line of reasoning then id starve cause id be responsible for every anmimal that ever died to feed a human ,if you take it far enough hell you'll be to blame for everything .its like saying well i was a child once so im responsible for child porn just because i was used to make it ,and i owe every person who watched it an apology?! how far do you want to carry your forgiving? once again i think this shows how easy it is to stray from the original question that v asked ,what can perps do to make us want to forgive them ? my answer is nothing . but i wont need to make that choice cause my perp thinks he did nothing wrong. adam
 
Again Nobby, it's not the premise of your argument I disagree with; it's your notion that everyone has done something so horrible. I've done a lot of sub-par things in my life - I've stolen a candy bar once, for instance. I've said things to people I didn't really mean. I've given people who asked me things answers which are sometimes the exact opposite of what I really think or feel. None of these equates to the abuse - it's not even in the same ballpark.
 
We've been over the same ground several times here, but nobody has answered my question. I don't care about the severity of the wrong. That is entirely subjective, and the truth is that anyone who you wrong is not going to care how badly hurt you were. They are going to be hurt and angry at you.

So I ask again, would you expect someone that you had wronged to forgive you?
 
Since you asked, no. He/she after all is the one who was wronged.

It is not mine to expect.

It is mine to attempt to make right, but that is all I can do. I am only able to take care of the stuff in my yard. Noting I can do about what he/she will do with the stuff in his/hers.
 
Now we're getting somewhere. Ok, now how would it make you feel if the person approached you and said, "Look, you really hurt me back then, but I forgive you?"
 
That would be great, but again it is not something I deserve, and certainly I'm not deserving of it if I have no remorse. Forgiveness is a gift. As such it can only be effective if I accept it with genuine remorse and repentance and even then I'm undeserving of it.

All of which brings me back to my original point. Forgiveness is a two-party transaction. So getting back to Vitaliy's question- - -What sort of a person is deserving of forgiveness?- - -No one. It is a mutually shared experience between the one who did wrong and the victim of the wrong, both of whom decide to come together and let the evil of the past be just that and rebuild their relationship.

Lots of love,

John
 
I happen to think the severity of the wrong is very much at issue, personally. But more at issue is the mindset of the "forgiven".

If I was at someone's house and broke a lamp, laughed and said "whoops", and never did anything about it, I would never expect to be forgiven - not because I "don't feel I'm deserving", but because it obviously doesn't matter to me at all. In that case, if such a person came up to me and said "I liked it a lot, but I fixed/replaced it and don't worry, I forgive you," how could I possibly feel good or grateful, or different at all? I don't care. The "forgiveness" makes no difference to me - if they'd never said it, it'd be the same.

If I were truly remorseful over something I did, I'm not sure such empty forgiveness would matter to me, either. Let's say I go on a bender, stumble out to my car, drive around under the influence, hit someone and kill a young child. When I sober up enough to understand what I've done, I'm going to be devastated! So, the parents come up to me and say, "We forgive you." I just killed some little kid! I'm gutter slime - lower than whale crap. Those words aren't going to make me feel OK - they might even make me feel like more of a creep, for destroying what is now obviously such a good, strong, moral family.

The only way I see forgiveness mattering to me, personally, is if I have striven to redeem myself. I'm playing baseball, and I break my neighbor's car windshield, and run off. They're rightly pissed about it, because they don't know I'm the one that did it, and thus can't find me to make me pay, so they pay and have it fixed. It really bothers me, though, so one day I get up the courage, find out how much the window cost, and suddenly show up on their porch. "It was me that broke it - I know I should've said something, but I didn't, and I'm sorry. Here's $300 (or whatever the cost)." So, after recovering from the shock, and seeing that I'm making at least a half-assed, physical attempt to set things right (words are cheap, after all), they say, "It's OK...all's forgiven." And now - NOW - the forgiveness has meaning. I no longer feel bad - in fact, I might feel pretty darn good about myself. I cared enough to do something about it, and it was because of what I did that those people are willing to forgive me.

That's what I mean when I say redemption must be earned. I have judged my perps to be terrible, horrible people - not because of what they innately are, or what they potentially could be; but because of what they've DONE. I judge them by their actions. And if I ever forgive them, it will also be as the result of something they've DONE - not something they merely have the potential to do. Indeed, having the choice to seek redemption and NOT DOING SO only speaks worse for them, not better.
 
this is just my very own personal struggle with forgivness... - not saying that I am right in my thinking... - or that others have to think like I do... - we all have to find our own path to finding an inner peace - to live in anger of the past - that anger will eventualy consume us - that much I am 100% sure of...

I wrote letters of confrontation to my mom (who physicaly and mentaly abused me for most of my younger life) and to her youngest brother (who sexualy abused me for over 5 years) - I wrote those letters cause i no longer wanted to live in shame of the past - I was so tired of living a life of 'family secrets' - it was to let them know that I no longer was gonna live that life... - I also let them know that I was trying to forgvive them for what they done - cause the pain of it really was eating me up inside...

when finally they did answer my letters of confrontation - neither of them denied what they done... - mom was actualy very firm of saying that she only done what she felt was right in her mind of bringing me up as best she knew how - uncle said that he really did not ever even think that what he done would effect me so much - neither of them said even 1 word of accepting my forgivness - actualy... - they both basically said in more words or less that they DO NOT want my forgivness - they do not feel that they done anything to me that needs forgiving...

I know I have heard it many times here - and I have read it in books that forgivness is something we do for us - not for them - but... - if one does not wish to be forgiven - it does indeed create a very deep hole within me... - a hole I am still searching for a way to fill...

I very much agree with what some have said here... - to my thinking there is 2 parts to forgivness - there is forgivness from within me (unconditional forgivness) - and there is forgivness that does take some sort of reaction on the other persons part... (conditional forgivness)(which to me is what Visha was talking about)

ok - back to Visha's original question... - to me for a person to show to me that they trully do 'want' our forgivness there has to be ACTION to their words of wanting forgiveness (I asked my mother and uncle to both get counseling - they both refused - they did not take actions to prove they was sorry of what they done)

Have I forgiven??? - not totaly i guess... - but I try...

TJ jeff
 
The act of accepting a remorseful apology from your perp is reconciliation, not forgiveness. Reconciliation the act of two people "reconciling" their dispute and agreeing that they will look past their respective wrongs and work toward restoring a positive relationship. And I agree, it is very much a two-way street. I have not reconciled with my perp, and from the way things are going, I don't expect him to approach me about it any time soon.

But reconciliation is not the same thing as forgiveness.

If you look into the history of the word "forgiveness," you find that the root of the word forgive is the Old English word forgiefan "give, grant, allow," also "to give up" from for- "completely" + giefan "give" (see give).

"Completely give."

Forgiefan is the word that the English translators of the Bible used to replace the Latin word perdonare "to give wholeheartedly, to remit."

The act of forgiving, or pardoning, has never included reciprocity or reconciliation. Forgiveness is a solitary act of giving. You give forgiveness to yourself.

And that's what forgiving is. It is to give up, completely and wholeheartedly, the anger and hate that we are holding against another person. It is an individual action. We remit (return) the anger to where it belongs.

I am making it sound easy. But giving up anger and hate is not easy. Giving up our anger doesn't mean justifying our anger or using it to justify our actions. Giving up our anger is an act of love. It means we accept that our perps are fallible human beings, who have unfortunately turned to dark ways in their pain and confusion. This is extremely difficult, and unfortunately it is the only way to truly forgive. I can honestly say that forgiving my perp is one of the most difficult and painful things that I have done, and without the support and advice of some of the guys here at Malesurvivor I never would have been able to do it.

It's difficult for sure, but forgiving is what it is. When you forgive, you don't condone your perp's actions, or give in to weakness, or show cowardice. It is an act of courage, and for someone recovering from abuse, it is the greatest gift that they can give themselves. And it has nothing to do with benefiting your perp as an individual.

Melliferal, you hit the nail right on the head when you said this:

So, the parents come up to me and say, "We forgive you." I just killed some little kid! I'm gutter slime - lower than whale crap. Those words aren't going to make me feel OK - they might even make me feel like more of a creep, for destroying what is now obviously such a good, strong, moral family.
Click to expand...
Exactly! you would feel guilt, as you so have described so well in this quote. But that is because you are a good person at heart, and your guilt arises because you recognise that the family has had to take the time to heal and rebuild from the damage that you have caused them. In a way, forgiveness is a signal between good people that they have chosen to accept your mistake and get on with their lives. Your guilt at this is your conscience reminding you that you need to deal with your own feelings of guilt and shame for hurting them. But you also know, because they have forgiven you, that the door is open for reconciliation.

And that is the whole point. Forgiveness is not for your perp. More likely than not, if he learns you have forgiven him, he probably won't even care. Forgiveness is for you. That is the whole truth of it. It is a beautiful gift, and learning the ability to forgive is one of the first steps to true freedom. Forgiving your perp brings you peace. It removes the burden of hate and anger and it opens the door to reconciliation; while at the same time it relieves you of the burden of maintaining anger at your perp.

Please understand that I believe this with all my heart because I know that it is true. Forgiveness has brought me peace and freedom. Other people I have spoken to at Malesurvivor who have forgiven say the same thing. I am sharing my experience as my act of gratitude to these people and also for the many gifts of wisdom that I have received from the Malesurvivor community. I am trying so hard to share my experience because I want to help you gain this freedom. It is frustrating because I can see your pain and frustration, but I think the work is worth it. Please have patience with me as I try to find the right words.

I hope and pray that my message will reach some of you. If my writing helps even one of you gain a higher level of peace and freedom in your life, then I have succeeded in passing on this gift. The only thing I would ask is that you pass the gift on to the next guy on the path.

It's for you.
 
How? Can we truly forgive!
We cant, there is no way to do it, but we must accept that the guilt burden is not our own to carry.

The worst thing I found out last year, is that my abuse was not reported, and that sent shudders down my spine, because he threatened to kill me with an knife.

He threatened my family and said he knew where I lived, and had me live in terror each day and night, waiting for his return, but at the police station, they must have seen how hurt I was, and should have spoken further to me.

Reconciliation to me, is to recognise that I am not nor ever was a filthy little brat.
Kids have a thing about adults being right, and even when faced with abuse, they cannot readily see it as abuse, just something to expect of adults.

They have no way of talking their way through it and seeing that it was wholly innapropriate for an adult to treat a child that way, and that brings so many problems in trust within the child.

I even thought as a kid that I will go to hell for what happened, even though it was not my fault,

ste
 
Hello

First post. I just think I don't care whether the guy who attacked me is alive or dead in heaven or hell. He is out, out, out of my life though he was only in it four hours but left a long shadow. Forgive him? I don't forgive him , I don't not forgive him. But I know I did not get justice, because he went out of my life and I don't know if he ever even got locked up. And he must have attacked others. He left a lot of suffering over the years, but I don't want to suffer more by getting worked about him. But it's easier for me, I "only" got attacked once.
I don't know what forgiveness means. Is it a feeling? Is it saying I understand you? Is it saying ok you won't go to jail? It would have been better if my attacker went to jail for a long time, but that's to do with justice, and keeping other children safe at least for that time. It didn't happen, not for his attack on me anyhow. To heck with "forgiveness", get justice and you can work out details about "forgiveness" after that.

Tom
 
I still see the perp from my case walking around locally, although he has kept a low profile since I last confronted him! That was the day he actually called me son (he didn't actually realise it was me at first, because he spoke before looking up at my face).

I intend to ask him why he did it next time I actually get face to face with him. When I do that, I'll tell him that there are other people that were sexually abused, that believe I should actually forgive him! Love to see the look on his face then!

He'll still deny what he did! To tell him that I forgive him would be meaningless (and I wouldn't cheapen myself by saying it - I don't give a toss how he feels)!

What I can forgive is when someone makes a genuine mistake:

Someone accidentaly spills a drink on me - not a problem.
Someone takes the last biscuit / piece of chocolate / bag of crisps from my goody drawer at work - not a problem. If they're hungry, they can have it!
Someone challenges me because someone said something that was misinterpretated - not a problem, but they would get a dose of reality.

What I cannot forgive:
Someone grooms and abuses a kid - they get away with it!
They groom and abuse another kid - they get away with it!
They plan to groom and abuse another kid - they do it, they get away with it.
They stick to this modus operandus for close to 40 years, until someone stands up and says stop!
This was never an accident, abusing what must amount to close on 100 kids, or a slip of character! It was cold blooded, calculated stealing of the innocence and childhood of multiple children. ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVEABLE!

The only paedophiles that stop, are the ones that are stopped! Whether that is because someone like myself stops them, or their own physical deterioration (old age / infirmity) stops them! I will add that some very infirm elderly paedophiles have still been caught out as active paedophiles.

Savages may eventually be civilised to have more humanistic values. Someone tell me what humanistic values paedophiles have. They may have been innocent children once, but they are now adults that deny that innocence to others.

I would presume that the majority of us here were actually abused as children. The majority of us have not inflicted that abuse on other children. There are exceptions I know, but adults that systematically abuse are the ones that I am talking about above! Someone that has made a career out of abusing children should be despatched from this planet ASAP - sod forgiving them! I repeat they did not accidentaly do something - they repeatedly abused their powers over innocents! Bring back the noose!

PS - I'm not arguing, merely stating an extremely valid viewpoint.

Best wishes ...Rik
 
It's for you.
Click to expand...
Nobby,

I get it now.

One of the dearest friends I have on this site forgave his perp about a year ago. Walked right up to him and told him that he forgave him for what he did to him. This friend tried to tell me then, that he was doing it for himself, not for his perp.

It made sense to me that anything it takes to make us feel good about ourselves is a good thing. If forgiving takes away some of the hate and bad feelings, I am all for it.

What you are saying makes sense, in that my friend still to this day has nightmares about this creep, and he hates him from time to time for the things he did to him, but it has to be a good feeling to know that you have done all you could possibly do to overcome the situation(s).

I am not in that place yet. I am the absolute king of denial. I don't think I ever want to face my perps again, ever, much less tell them I forgive them. Am I wrong for this? I think not. Forgiveness would not make me feel better.

However, if it makes anyone feel better, then forgive! After what these perps have taken from us, and the issues they have given us, anything that makes us have the upper hand is a good thing.

"It's for you."
 
one mans truth is another mans madness. i asked a question also somewhere way back there in this thread ,dont think its been answered . why should i give the same compassion ,or respect to someone that has done the unspeakable? thats what i just cant swallow! it makes the hell each of us lived through seem insignifacant, somehow lessens the severity of what was done .maybe after 25 years it kinda wears off how bad it really was ,idont know . i know i refuse to give any perp the respect or compassion that i give every man on this site .you see knobby for some reason i wont forgive him because of you out of respect for what you lived through!i will not diminish what was done to you or me by forgiving. also it is said here that forgivness is for me not my perp ,then it follows that for it to help me i would have to want it ,i dont , .
 
I have a very old dictionary from 1938 - it's my Mother's from when she attended Grammar School! It's the type of dictionary that would be welcomed in a court of law!

Forgive (also gives the old Anglo Saxon word, forgifan): To give up resentment or claim to requital on account of: to remit as an offence, debt, fine, or penalty; to pardon; to cease to feel resentment against; to free from a claim or the consequences of an injurious act or crime.

Forgiveness: the act of forgiving or willingness to forgive.

Forgiving: disposed to forgive; inclined to overlook offences; mild; merciful; compassionate.

In the definition of forgive, we have the word pardon!

Pardon: strictly to remit the punishment or retaliation we are entitled to inflict; forgive implies that the party who has suffered injury entirely overlooks the offence, and cherishes no ill feeling whatever against the offender.

So what are my opinions on those definitions! Note that to make it as far as forgiveness; you first have to understand what it is to forgive! I cannot remit JF from the multiple offences that he committed (and would still be committing) against myself and others! I certainly do not pardon him, because that means I am totally overlooking the offence (just like it never happened) and denying the impact that he had on my life and others.

Forgiveness - well looking at that definition, it is something that I reserve for people in my life that do something out of character. Something that may cause me mild offence, but is not designed to seriously hurt me. Something that is not wilful!

Forgiving - although there are things that are unforgivable, I am compassionate - if you could ask the people that really know me, they would tell you that I am probably the most compassionate person they know. I can overlook offences, but note the definition does not include 'extremely serious offences'.

Dig out your dictionaries, put your definitions here.

I can assure you that whatever definitions anyone comes up with, I will never entirely overlook the offences that JF committed. That to me is like denying that they ever happened! That is why so many of us stay silent! That is why so many of them get away with it!

It happened!

What I do find amazing, is that I really just come here now to support others. JF is quite insignificant in my daily life! Even though I have to confront him one more time, he is really not in my thoughts that much now, until I find out here, that what he did should be overlooked (see definitions of pardon/forgiveness above).

Best wishes ...Rik
 
trigger warning !!!you still didnt answer my question ,but thats ok . follies? all the quotes you presented here are for common indescretions ,things like lying or cheating or stealing. i do not consider anyone who wont forgive weak,in fact to me yes i'll say it ,but with no disrespect ,i consider forgiving to be a sign of giving up ,giving in ,weakness. you didnt heal anything you just gave up on ever getting justice ,there is a difference between justice and revenge. ok i'll just put it out here ,since you wont accept my respect for what happened to you as a valid reason ,then whats the opposite ,should i say well what happened to you probably wasnt so bad ,hell why dont you just get over it and forgive him ,maybe you even liked it .is that the real message behind what your saying ?cause thats what it sounds like to me.at age 11 i learned to fight for my life it is an ability that served me well i wont go back to being submissive . you want the real definition of forgivness?forgiving is saying what happened is ok . its not ,nothing will ever make it ok , to the common man forgiving means saying its ok.this is not like saying well you took my lunch money but i forgive you ,this ruined my life ,it ended my life as it should have been , it sent me into a world where forgiving can get you stabbed in the back , if you get beat up by an older kid ,but out of the kindness of your heart you tell him i forgive you ,you will feel so good ,till they turn out the lights and he sodomizes you again . my perp didnt just beat me and molest me ,he made it possible for those things to become normal in my life . also i ask this if we should forgive everything then why do we have courts? prisons? laws ,if you take all those away who do you think will survive ,those who forgive ,or those who take advantage of the forgivers? you wouldnt last 5 days in the e h close detention center dude.again visha i apologize for your post being kinda overrun , please tell me and i dont even want to say this but i think it needs to be said ,tell me how i can forgive being held down while a 250 pound adult forces something that feels like a red hot baseball bat into my 11 year old body ,should i forgive the torn and ripped skin on my lips and at the corners of my mouth from having something so big it tore my mouth apart forced into me? im sorry to talk like this but i think we need to see what happened for what it is ,follies?!
 
Originally posted by shadowkid:
should i say well what happened to you probably wasnt so bad ,hell why dont you just get over it and forgive him ,maybe you even liked it .is that the real message behind what your saying ?
Click to expand...
I'm sorry? Are you saying that I liked my rape?
 
heh out of all that ? this is the only thing that got some attention?no i am not saying you liked it !remember im the one who wont forgive out of respect for what you been through? maybe i can minimze what happend to me but not what happened to all the other guys here. your the one saying it is forgivable not me! there are good reasons to forgive all im saying is there are also good reasons not to .i can type for an hour ,but only one sentence is addressed . read all of the post ,or just blow me off because i dont agree with you. its not politicly correct to be against something like forgiving ,but it is honest. the point of that sentence was that it seems that you want me to say it about my experience ,and just forgive . and if i had said that to you ,im sure you could forgive me ,right? i really shouldnt worry what i do because good strong people will forgive everytime . its the weak bitter screwed up ones who hold a grudge. still hav'nt answered my question either. if you and your perp were drowning,and i could only save one of you ,should i give him the same consideration that i would give you, an honest good person ? should i save him because maybe if i do he will change? or should i save you cause he's a worthless piece of crap who would probably push me into the water if i got him out?
 
To try to get this thread back on track from threadjacking by personal disputes and using it for a pulpit to push 'what you should do' to each other....I'll just answer the question.

I was abused, in various ways, by both parents and my sport coach. The worst of the sexual abuse was by the coach, and in irony, he is the only one who has shown any remorse so far. He actually contacted me last year, and another person he abused, apologizing, explaining his behavior, and not even asking forgiveness, because as he said 'I do not deserve it, and to say I am sorry to you, it is not going to change or fix the past'. Yet, he did say he was sorry. I can not say that I have forgiven him. But I will say, since he did that, initially I was hypertriggered and suspicious, but as time has gone on, I have had less thought of him in general, less bad dreams about him, less panic about anything he has done.

Now my mother, I am starting to begin to realize she will never think she did anything wrong. Why I still seek a natural mother-child relationship with her, and why I still want her acceptance and approval, I don't know. She has remained inappropriate and abusive to me even now as an adult. What would it take to forgive her? Actually, for me, with her, probably very little.

I still feel embarrassment, maybe not actual shame, by her treatment of me, past and even present. That, it is not fair, because SHE is the one who I think should be embarrassed, for having such thoughts on her son, and even more, acting on them. But the one time I have tried even to really address the issue with her, she refused to hear how I feel about it, and refused to admit what she has done, it is wrong.

If she were to tell to me 'I'm sorry', and accept that sexually touching your son is not proper for a mother, and some of the other more verbal/emotionally abusive things she has done, just apologize to me, I think I would forgive her very quick and easy. She is my MOTHER, and stupid as it may be, I do still love her. She made many sacrifices for me as I was growing up, and worked very hard to provide for me. There are many positive things she has done and still does. But we need to get through it together, the abuse issues, for me to put it behind me. If she was to apologize to me, accept responsibility, and show me she MEANS it by backing up her words with her behaviors, I think I would have very little trouble forgiving her.

My father was just a beast. Very physically (and somewhat sexually as well) abusive, to the point that my younger brother died as a child because of his abuse. To me, that is unforgiveable. Now I know someone else may post about how 'Have you never hurt anyone, how dare you make that judgement' and all that, and that's fine and all dandy. That is YOUR opinion, not mine, and it is no more valid an argument than mine is. Yes, I have hurt people. I have hurt some of the people I love most in the world, hurt their feelings, have had issues with trust, even recently. And I accept responsibility that I have done that, and I apologize and try to back it up with my changed and improved behaviors. Yes, I have hurt people. But I have never raped, beaten, killed anyone. There are degrees to negative behaviors, just same as there are degrees of crime from misdemeanors to felonies. If I choose to think something is not forgiveable to me, that is not something that should be attacked by someone of another opinion. I am a good man, and not forgiving a past wrong does not make me anything less. Period.

So what could my father do or say to make me change my mind? I don't know. I can not fathom anything that would take away the vacancy in my life of my brother. And I can't imagine what could soften me toward him from the beatings I witnessed to both my mother and grandmother, as well as what he's done to me. Perhaps there are words, and actions, that could redeem him to me. I just can not imagine what they would be. And as I have not seen the man since I was 10 years old, I think it is not so much of an issue to me.

Leosha
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top