Something curious to me

Something curious to me
V

VN

Registrant
In the 'forgiveness' thread, several people have said things like, 'some things can not be forgiven', or that some people do not deserve forgiveness. I do not agree or disagree completely with either those things, but it make something curious to me.

What kind of person Do deserve forgiveness for being perpetrator of child abuse? What kind of things must that person do, or say, to show that they are someone who deserve forgiveness? Or is there not anything they can do to correct what they have done and forgiveness never can be done?

I do not mean to create something where arguments or not tolerating another person's thoughts are to be done. I am just curious, of what different people here think deserves forgiveness, or if it is just impossible. Please, no arguing or not respecting views of other people. Thank you.

VN
 
Visha,

My question would be, "Who doesn't deserve forgiveness?"

All children are all born innocent. That means that for at least some part of their lives, perps were innocent children. Then something happened to change that and they chose a dark path.

Personally I believe that every person is capable of redemption and a return to the innocence of their childhood. And my choice to forgive perps is a reflection of that belief. When I forgive a perp I do two things: 1) I acknowledge his prior innocence, and 2) I express my hope that he can return to that innocence.

I don't see this as a "gift" or something that I am giving up to my perp. Instead, I see it as a gift to humanity in general. Forgiveness has brought me internal peace, and that internal peace has brought me hope that there can be a greater peace in the world. And that is really the truth of it. Forgiveness is a gift of love; to yourself, to humanity, and to the innocent child that became your perp.

When you think of forgiving your perp, reflect on his prior innocence, and ask yourself; "if I could go back in time and give that child one ray of hope, so that he chooses not to become a criminal, would I do it?" And if your answer is yes, then I ask, what is stopping you from forgiving him now?

Forgiveness is nothing more than that. It is a message to that innocent child that there is hope. It doesn't excuse your perp of anything. It doesn't excuse what he did to you and other children. Your perp may never know if you choose to forgive him, and quite possibly, even if he did know, he probably wouldn't care. Your perp may even be actively molesting children. None of that really matters. Forgiveness is just the message, from you to yourself, and to humanity, that innocence can be regained.

"I worry about fast forgivers. They tend to forgive quickly in order to avoid their pain. Or they forgive fast in order to get an advantage over the people they forgive. And their instant forgiving only makes things worse. People who have been wronged badly and wounded deeply should give themselves time and space before they forgive. There is a right moment to forgive. We cannot predict it in advance; we can only get ourselves ready for it when it arrives. Don't do it quickly, but don't wait too long. If we wait too long to forgive, our rage settles in and claims squatter's rights to our souls."
-- Lewis B. Smedes.
 
I think that sometimes if not all we treat life like a mystery, something not quite right, not being able sometimes to react the way we really feel.

I was going to post another thread about how we perceive ourselves against what other ppl would think of reaction to what we say.

Forgiveness is never that, but the ability to put the shame and guilt on another track until it comes back.

It is about forgiving yourself for something out of your control, but lacking the resource to bring about justice of the past.

How many times do we judge others?
We do it every day, sometimes unconsciously.
I would forgive those who do not do me personal damage, and would expect apology off other person, if it was not, of truth,

ste
 
VN,

(Let me say to avoid arguing with anyone that this is how forgiveness works for me...)

I have learned for myself that forgiveness is possible once I process the hurt behind the crime. Forgiveness is more for me than it is the perp. Once the hurt is felt and dealt with, I can forgive. What if the perp is not alive to ask forgiveness? Should I carry their burden with me the rest of my life, hoping for a request for forgiveness that will never happen? Am I to hold fast to this debt someone owes me with no chance of ever collecting it?

Forgiveness to me is not simply writing off the crime and living with my losses brought upon me by someone who was self-serving in their crime against me. It is not simply letting them off the hokk without so much as a whimper of the crime doen against me. Their wrong will indeed be declared one way or another, through my words or through my actions - hopefully only in healthy ways.

Andy
 
i will agree that forgivness has to be something you do for yourself ,cause your perp dont care ,if he cared about the outcome of his actions well he wouldnt have done it would he?if my perp could travel through time and undo what he did ? i still wouldnt forgive him .i looked up the defenition of forgive ,'to pardon,to remit ,to overlook' nothing in there about it making you feel better,to overlook? like it never happened?id rather forget than forgive and damned if i'll waste one moment trying to decide if i should do it. i feel good about my decision ,it does not bother me ,and my hate does not consume me it shows me im strong . what could they do to deserve forgivness ? nothing . they dont give a rats ass if we forgive them or not.im sure that when they got tired of abusing us they forgot about us ,my perp dont spend sleepless nights wondering if i forgive him ,why should i waste one minute wondering if i should? just as forgivness is a personal choice ,not forgiving is too. if i cant go back and reclaim my innocence ,then how could my perp ever do that? i keep hearing that we need to forgive ourselves ,i just dont get that at all ?
 
Visha,

While I agree with Nobby regarding "who doesn't deserve to be forgiven?" I am personally not in a place to do that. I dont' care to forgive them for what they took from me. If that makes me a weak or bad person, so be it. I've been called and made to feel worse in my life.

As long as I can live with myself, I dont' feel any need to forgive and make my perps feel any better about their lives. I honestly try not to think about them too much, but as anyone here knows, that is not always possible.
 
Like Andy, I'm going to add a caveat at the beginning of this saying:

"This is only the way I see it, not a statement that anyone else is wrong or that they should believe it the way I do."

I don't know......... Perhaps I'm a heretic here, but it seems to me there is lots of confusion between forgiving another for a wrong done, and personal growth.

To me forgiveness requires the action of two people. The perp needs to feel genuine sorrow and repentance for what he did and must seek to make it amends for his wrongful actions. The victim must then choose to accept the heartfelt apology and to grant forgiveness.

Personal growth, on the other hand, is the victim simply deciding he is no longer going to allow the wrongs done in the past to fill his life with poison. In essence it is him getting to the point where if forgiveness is ever sought he will be able to take it on board and be able to forgive should he choose to do so.

I'm not sure the term "deserve forgiveness" applies to someone who is not repentant of the evil they have done.

Lots of love,

John
 
Let us replace the word forgivenss with reconciliation.
Reconciliation with who you really are, from the little boy who was innocent.

The man who has grown from the little boy, to be a good man on earth,

ste
 
Originally posted by walkingsouth:
I'm not sure the term "deserve forgiveness" applies to someone who is not repentant of the evil they have done.
Click to expand...
Ask yourselves these questions. They are horrible questions to ask, but I will not apologise for listing them. I beg you to please accept these questions as they are, that is as "universal" questions, not questions that I am asking you personally. I can't answer them honestly myself. However I do believe that they can lead to the truth of forgiveness.


Are you truly repentant of the all the evil that you have done?


Do you expect to be forgiven by the people that you yourself have wronged?


Are you aware of every single wrong that you have committed against others?


And if you are not aware of all the wrongs that you have committed against others, how (and when) do you plan to make amends for these wrongs?


Or do you feel justified in wronging others? If so, why do you feel that you are justified in this? And would you consider it fair to be judged by the same measure with which you are judging others? If not, why not?


Do you understand the universal concepts of Peace, Hope and Love? Do you consider yourself a peaceful, hopeful and loving person, as defined by these universal concepts?


Are you aware of the Golden Rule of Humanity? This rule is present in every single religion, belief and creed on the planet. Do you accept that the truth of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" applies to every single human being, including you? If not, why not?


If you accept that you may have wronged others without knowing,
that you deserve to be judged as you judge others,
that you expect others to treat you as well as you treat others,
and that you understand the concepts of peace, hope and love,


then why do you feel that perps do not deserve forgiveness?
 
I often use that script of do onto others, and yes I prefer to be humane and forgive them on earth, but they will be judged by God who will have little mercy on those who hurt the little ones.

Their turn for the millstone,

ste
 
it just goes on and on !nobby is it fair to assume that everyone has done some terrible evil thing to someone else? i do not accept that i have wronged others knowingly or unknowingly.how can you compare anything i may have done to the devestation that abuse causes? yes i would consent to being judged by the standards i use to judge perps ,nothing ,NOTHING i have ever done in my life could put me on a level with those who abuse.my standards for them are not so unattainable ,they are simply that you DO NOT FUCK LITTLE CHILDREN!OR BEAT THEM OR DESTROY THEIR LIVESis that such a high standard?is it too high ? when they chose ,yes CHOSE to abuse the so called golden rule no longer applies. talk to the fucking perps about do unto others ,i guess if it applies to me it should apply to them right? so maybe the golden rule says it fine for what the perps did to be done to them ? or does the rule only apply when it suits your needs? also i mean no disrespect to anyone but i am sick of hearing that god will judge them if and when their reign of terror finally ends. its like saying oh well let them go on abusing cause i know someday god will punish them ,no thats not good enough,thats a fucking cop out. oh well maybe god will punish them no way not good enough. i didnt choose to abuse ,its a choice ,just like forgiving ,by making their choice the perps decided that they did nothing wrong ,what the fuck makes you think they want our forgivness? normal rules do not allpy to these animals.do you think they sit and wring their hands thinking god is gonna punish them ? i know we will never agree on this but you guys are living in a world that dont exist and you of all people should understand this!you can explain that god cant help or stop abuse cause we have free will ,but turn right around and say yes god will punish them ? so in your opinion god does nothing to help but oh boy is he gonna make them pay !which way is it?god does nothing or god will punish them ? i dont think it can work both ways ,either god does nothing ,which i believe,or god can do something just not till its too late. also why do you feel perps do deserve forgivness?tell me please and not about how at sometime they were innocent children ,do you know that? i know i'll get about a hundred lines or quotes from the bible about god punishing them ,but how about something that at least makes sense? you base everything on faith ,well i have no faith in anything except the fact that perps are evil and if they are not punished right here and now they will never be punished at all ,they are guilty of murder and deserve to be punished accordingly.
 
Adam. I could have chosen to abuse but didnt.
Why? I am an abused boy of past, so it goes without saying that I will abuse because of my past.

If you look on the drug abuse problems, they must be kids who were abused or brought up with no future.

They act out to get money for drugs etc., finish their lives.
If we did go on to abuse, we would not walk the streets thru fear.

Nobby is only trying to say how all of us should treat each other in the world, the way it should be, and no other, and to respect others for who they are and not judge others on how you perceive them in this world.

None of us should have to fight, but we did, and no other will ever have a chance to do it again.

Nobody has a right to hurt k,

ste
 
i agree 200%,and i try to live that way ,i really do treat people the way id like to be treated im not a saint ,but i can say i never intentionaly hurt anybody or planned to then did it . why should that rule apply to abusers? should i give them the same consideration i would give you? should i feel exactly the same compassion for them ,that i do for all those here who been hurt? what does that say about your experience? do they deserve the same respect i would show you? i wont minimize what happened to me or you by putting those who did it on the same level with us. even though we been destroyd, ripped apart and stuck back together again ,we live by rules,and yes do unto others is one of them ,do the rules of sanity apply to perps? do they have any morals at all .do they value human life as priceless, do they protect the children? no ,but suddenly we are gonna apply the golden rule to them ? the golden rule ony works if its used with a lot of other rules.somebody should explain it to the perps right before they execute them
 
Visha, everybody is capable of redemption. I really believe that there are certain things that people can do, that won't make the past OK, but will show that they are truly remorseful, and truly understanding of the hurt or trouble they caused, and would give everything they had to go back and not do it.

But everyone is also capable of murder. Everybody, on the face of the planet, is physically capable of ending someone else's life. Should everybody be locked up because they are all potential murderers? Of course not. They have to show, beyond a doubt, that they are at least seriously willing to kill someone, before we even think about whether they need to go to prison or not.

I feel this way about forgiveness. Everyone is capable of redemption - but, is it logical that I should forgive them all automatically? I say - of course not. They must show that they are at least willing to try to redeem themselves before they deserve to be forgiven. That is just the way I think.
 
Perhaps I should restate this.

To those who have NOT forgiven your abusers, and feel you never will: what, if there is anything, that they can do to make you feel differently of it? What kind of things could they say to you, or do and show to you, that they are meaningful of wanting to change, and then deserve to be forgived?

vn
 
Ah. That I can't answer. As I said, I believe there is something, or a series of things, that can be done...but I don't know what they are; I suppose I wouldn't be able to tell you until I saw them done.

Caring enough to try and find me and apologize would be a really good start, I think. Granted, I live on the other side of the country, now - but he knows my real name and I'm not exactly some kind of recluse.
 
Originally posted by shadowkid:
i do not accept that i have wronged others knowingly or unknowingly.how can you compare anything i may have done to the devestation that abuse causes?
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You have. We all have.

Here's an example. Say you watch a porno movie and masturbate. Then, later, you learn that the girls in the movie were being forced to work as sex slaves by a criminal organisation. How would you feel about masturbating to that movie?

To me, the act of masturbating to that movie would amount to a rape of these girls. By masturbating, I am using them for my own gratification, and I am also giving my support to the people who have enslaved and abused them.

Now if you met one of these girls later in life, would you expect her to forgive you for what you have done to her? Would you have the courage to even admit what you have done to her, by supporting the people who enslaved and abused her?

Finally, what would you do, if you met the girl, and she said to you, "Before you say anything, please know that I have forgiven you?" How would you respond?
 
The example you give, Nobby, explains your premise well enough - but I don't see how it answer's Adam's question. Not everyone masturbates to porn created by slavers. It's possible, again, but that doesn't mean it's automatically true for everyone.

Everyone's done something that has hurt someone's feelings, or pushed them away emotionally, true - it happens all the time, over even small things - like picking someone last for a dodgeball team. But that doesn't put those things on par with sexual abuse.
 
Nobby, a man who masturbates to a porn movie is not involved in enslavement.
If he sought that behaviour then he must be, but not if you dont know the source of the material.

If I watch a man being beheaded on a movie, like what happened to a local man here.
Then does it make me complicit in his murder?
No, of course not, and btw I did not, although thousands of others did.

If you pay or subscribe to images of abuse, then you are keeping the perps in their trade.
If you distribute it to others you are complicit in abuse.

We need to be very careful in muddy waters,

ste
 
I am not talking about dodgeball. I am talking about committing serious wrongs against others, which is why I used the example I did. Would you expect someone you had wronged in such a way to forgive you?

In my opinion, there is no absolutely no difference between being a sex offender and supporting a sex offender. The crime is in your heart. If you take satisfaction or enjoyment from the suffering of others, then you are guilty. It is as simple as that.

And yes, the waters are very muddy. It is debatable which acts are "more sinful" than others. We have established our own moral standards, but they are simply ethical opinions and they serve only as guidelines, not rules. They cannot be relied on to determine individual guilt.

For example, in some stone age tribes, cannibalism is accepted and is considered appropriate. For these same tribes, burying the bodies of the dead is considered a horrible crime. However, if you or I, as members of a society that frowns on cannibalism, join them in their cannibalistic feast, are we committing a crime? I would say yes, if, by eating another human being we are getting vicarious pleasure from violating our own society's ethical standards. However, if we were able to completely understand and accept the tribe's beliefs on cannibalism and the treatment of the dead, and we respectfully join them in their ritual, then we are not committing a crime.

By the same token, rape and violent assaults are considered crimes by our society. So if we enjoy depictions of these crimes, or, in my example of the porn movie with enslaved actors, we willingly participate in the crime by supporting its perpetrators, we are then complicit in it. And therefore we have committed a crime against the girls in the movie. To use your example ste, simply watching the beheading is not a crime. I would personally be shocked and saddened by such a video. However, if you take vicarious pleasure in the suffering of the man on the screen, then you have wronged him. And then I ask my question again, would you expect him to forgive you?
 
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