So what IS Love anyways?

[SubtleStuff]

Hi guys,

I've had some interesting insights recently that seem to be relevant to my healing and perhaps yours too.

I've experienced some pretty intense feelings of being in "love" with women who are paid to care for my body (massage therapist and dental hygienist). I'm beginning to think that its simply a longing for more of what they give masquerading as "love". Often feelings of fear and jealousy crop up alongside. I think I'm just experiencing the longing of a newborn to be loved and the pain of how that just doesn't/didn't happen the way I would have liked (mostly "not enough... I need more!").

It's got me questioning where love comes from. It seems to be an essential element of my recovery as early childhood maternal nurturing was clearly much less than ideal in my case. I ended up having to work for it!

These days I'm beginning to think that love comes from me. I'm the only one who is around non-stop and the central piece when it comes to my attitude towards my mind, emotions, and body. I often ask myself, "How can I love myself right now?". It helps me snap out of the neediness and snap back into the source. It's very much a meditative practice.

Just thought I'd share this. It seems to help. Do you guys experience anything similar?

Sincerely,

"GAATT"

 

[don64]

Hi Gaatt,

I've spent much of my life projecting all the wonderful feelings of love, care, nurturing on others. Mostly when it wasn't there.

Today, I'm conscious of projecting all the wonderful love and caring in myself, and am generally able to bring it back into myself where it belongs, and am learning to more honestly see others for who they are and not get confused.

Many years ago I read a little Jungian book entitled "Owning Your Own Shadow." In it, the author says that most people in relationships project their own Divinity onto the other person. He further says that the relationships that make it are the ones where at some point one of the partners says, "You know, you're not the person I married." And the other partner responds, "Yeah, I know. Interested in getting to know each other?"

I've spent my life projecting all the wonderful awareness(es) inside me onto others, with disastrous results. But, I am still learning, and am actually becoming excited at the prospects of actually really seeing who is there, and being able to see myself and to allow myself to be seen. It means the possibility is forming for me to actually love and to be loved.

Best of luck in this very tricky area.

Don

 

[SubtleStuff]

Hi Don,

Thanks so much for sharing your experience and understanding. It's very relevant to my own and very helpful to hear your perspective.

I'm single right now (I have a strong pattern of staying single for long periods of time) and often wish I had someone who I could "get to know" as you were describing. At the same time, I'm very fearful of the emotional turmoil I've experienced in the past. Getting a handle of feelings of sexual attraction seems to be key. Fortunately, I'm able to express my struggles to my massage therapist and so far, she hasn't caved in to my feelings.

This morning, I realized that it's not so much the body sensations that I fear, its the dreams/nightmares that go with them. So as long as I detach from the mental stuff, I do much better.

I've spent my life projecting all the wonderful awareness(es) inside me onto others, with disastrous results.

Yes, I know this one. I've done the same.

But, I am still learning, and am actually becoming excited at the prospects of actually really seeing who is there, and being able to see myself and to allow myself to be seen.

Thanks for this. It's helping me get a little more enthusiastic about exploring this aspect of my life too. Generally, its been very confusing and then terrifying for me.

Thanks for your help.

Sincerely,

"GAATT"

 

[victor-victim]

many times i have said "i love you" when i was really saying "i love the way i feel when i am with you right now".
as soon as i did not enjoy that person's company or behaviour anymore, that feeling of "love" disappeared.
not really durable.

a female comedian once said, "love means you are willing to die for someone who makes you so angry you want to kill them."
funny (the crowd laughed) but not really accurate.

i don't count either of these as unconditional unselfish love.

i don't know if i have ever truly experienced ultimate love.

 

[don64]

Hi victor and gaatt,

Though I have had a number of relationships over the years, though not in 20 years, I have NEVER been in love. It was always a dependency formed out of fear of being alone. And, they all had to get pretty bad before I could leave and get past my own fear of being abandoned and being alone. The pain of acknowledging I kept picking unavailable men, that they were not able to be there for me in any way, that I kept giving and giving in hopes that one day there would be something for me, had to get extreme for me to leave.


Don

 

[victor-victim]

hi don64,

i feel your pain.
i finally got tired of dumping and getting dumped.
i got sick of rejecting and being rejected.
there was no magic miss perfect for me.
the ideal relationship with ONLY caring and sharing and trusting was elusive,
and eventually proved to be an illusion.
i discontinued my quest for the holy grail.
i finally got past my objectification and idolatry of women,
and accepted them as fellow humans.
different, but equal.
similar, but opposite.
identical, but unique.

beautifully flawed reflections of god.

i overcame my fear of commitment and failure.
i tossed out my trust issues
and reassessed my reluctance for monogamy.
i got engaged to the girl of my dreams
and married the love of my life.

this month (Aug 4) is our 23rd wedding anniversary.
not bad for a philandering fornicator from the bad old days.
just another "free love" and "safe sex" survivor.

my childrens' mother, my wife and lover, do i love her?
define the question and i can give you an honest answer.
i know i would gladly die, if she could live forever.
i know that i could kill, if i thought that it would save her.


the kind of love i feel for her reminds me of a scene i saw in
the movie "Lovers and Other Strangers" where the patriarch tries to give some sage advice about making a marriage work.
in one scene, a son, in the middle of a divorce, tries to explain to his father what went wrong.
"We're strangers, Pop."
to which the father replies, "We're all strangers. But after a while you get used to it. You become deeper strangers. That's a sort of love."

 

[don64]

Hi Victor,

Your post is so inspirational for me. I know all the work I have done, for decades really, is paying off. My dreams never die. And, I do feel I am close to being ABLE to let love come into my life. Your post just makes me know that love is there for me at some point. I'm really able to love myself now. Have to walk through fears still, but my ability to see clearly continues to improve, and the sieve I once was is becoming intact.

Thanks,

Don

 

[victor-victim]

Re: So what IS Love anyways?

when i typed that question into the search engine,
i came up with this:

The 5 Love Languages
The secret is learning the right love language!
.
#1: Words of Affirmation
Actions dont always speak louder than words. If this is your love language, unsolicited compliments mean the world to you. Hearing the words, I love you, are importanthearing the reasons behind that love sends your spirits skyward. Insults can leave you shattered and are not easily forgotten.

#2: Quality Time
For those whose love language is spoken with Quality Time, nothing says, I love you, like full, undivided attention. Being there for this type of person is critical, but really being therewith the TV off, fork and knife down, and all chores and tasks on standbymakes your significant other feel truly special and loved. Distractions, postponed dates, or the failure to listen can be especially hurtful.

#3: Receiving Gifts
Dont mistake this love language for materialism; the receiver of gifts thrives on the love, thoughtfulness, and effort behind the gift. If you speak this language, the perfect gift or gesture shows that you are known, you are cared for, and you are prized above whatever was sacrificed to bring the gift to you. A missed birthday, anniversary, or a hasty, thoughtless gift would be disastrousso would the absence of everyday gestures.

#4: Acts of Service
Can vacuuming the floors really be an expression of love? Absolutely! Anything you do to ease the burden of responsibilities weighing on an Acts of Service person will speak volumes. The words he or she most want to hear: Let me do that for you. Laziness, broken commitments, and making more work for them tell speakers of this language their feelings dont matter.

#5: Physical Touch
This language isnt all about the bedroom. A person whose primary language is Physical Touch is, not surprisingly, very touchy. Hugs, pats on the back, holding hands, and thoughtful touches on the arm, shoulder, or facethey can all be ways to show excitement, concern, care, and love. Physical presence and accessibility are crucial, while neglect or abuse can be unforgivable and destructive.

from: The 5 Love Languages, Dr. Gary Chapman


Looks like there are four types of LOVE in the GREEK psyche.

Eros - physical love; sexual desire, lust.

Philia - a positive feeling of liking, affection, esteem.

Agape - love that is spiritual and selfless.

Storge - instinctive affection which parents have for their young.


looks like the bahai agree to some degree.

THE FOUR KINDS OF LOVE

they explain it this way.
(a) The love of God towards the identity of God. Christ has said God is Love.
(b) The love of God for His childrenfor His servants.
(c) The love of man for God and
(d) The love of man for man.

These four kinds of love originate from God.
These are rays from the Sun of Reality;
these are the Breathings of the Holy Spirit;
these are the Signs of the Reality.

check out the book "The Four Loves" by C.S.Lewis.

 

[fhorns]

Thanks for posting this Victor. I have this book, and it was highly recommended in my attempts to restore my marriage.

I know my wife actually got mad when I began loving her, after I'd been kicked out. She was venting very honestly and healthily--as I found out "if she didn't care, she'd say nothing at all". She still had feelings, and this was good.

We've been legally divorced for almost 4 months now, after a 3 year one-sided attempt on my part. And in the last 2 days, I've noticed she's called just to talk. Seriously. Very, very refreshing

If anyone were to ask me--yes, I'm hopeful. She's beautiful, and she's hurt. She's finally in recovery circles (thank you God) and maybe....maybe she's seeing I'm not against her.

I think she's seeing, as I am, that I am my problem. She's her own problem. We need others, for (I) we don't always love ourselves. I need people around me to help me see what I can't see myself.

Gaatt: this could be a very lively topic in F&F.

 

[victor-victim]

glad you found some value in my post.

my wife is so type 4 (acts of service) and i am so type 1 (words of affirmation) that we often pass each other by like ships in a sea of fog.
mistaking garbled communications for hostile intentions.

 

[fhorns]

I'm so #2--Quality Time. And my wife says she's #3--receiving gifts.

I read this with an open heart last time---since it really mattered to her.

Thank you Victor! I could get her some plastic flowers tomorrow---she's allergic to most real ones, and I was getting real ones for her weekly, until I listened to her.

I found what it says is true. It's the thought that counts to her.

 

[SubtleStuff]

Gaatt: this could be a very lively topic in F&F.

Hi Fhorns,

What is F&F?


Here are a few books on Love that I've explored:
Osho: Love, Freedom, Aloneness.
Osho: Being in Love
bell hooks: All about Love
Deepak Chopra: The Path to Love
Barbara Fredrickson: Love 2.0
Daniel Ladinsky: The Subject Tonight is Love (Poems by Hafiz).

I once set up a men's group that we eventually called "Men for Love". I ended up bailing out when I found that my strong need for some kind of healing touch had no place with the other members. We were inspired by a quote of Rumi's "Your task is not to seek for Love, but to seek and find all the barriers you've built against it within yourself".

I wish I could find a woman who I could be close to. I did pursue the woman of my dreams and the result was so disturbing that I broke up with her out of fear of what I would do to her and/or myself. My need for a healing approach to intimacy with a strong foundation in non-sexual touch is intense and very difficult to find in my experience.

I posted my story recently. Thanks Fhorns for inspiring me to do it.

Sincerely,

"GAATT"

 

[fhorns]

F&F = Friends and Family, here in MS

Thanks for the compliment Your motivation encourages me too.

 

[SubtleStuff]

check out the book "The Four Loves" by C.S.Lewis.

Hi Victor,

I think I might. I've heard of this book before yet never read it. "God" language is a bit of a stretch for me, but I'll do my best.

In my understanding, Osho spoke of three kinds of "Love".
1. Sex: rooted in biology and basically selfish, but a necessary foundation energetically.
2. Love: Needs a partner and a willingness to embrace Freedom. Has no connection necessarily to biological drives.
3. Compassion: Is a state of being. Totally selfless. It requires no partner.

Thanks for the book idea.

Cheers,

"GAATT"

 

[SubtleStuff]

Gaatt: this could be a very lively topic in F&F.

Hi Fhorns,

Yes, I suppose it might. (Thanks for clarifying F&F for me )

I'm not very keen on a conversation there though. I have no family or friends that might be interested in such a conversation in a way that includes my reality. I'm very much on my own. You guys are it as far as unpaid partners in healing goes and you are already here in this forum.

I did ask if there were any mothers with a history of perpetrating incest in that forum and so far, no-one has answered. I'm guessing that if there are any lurking, they aren't writing.

Feel free to start one if you like though. You might get more out of it than I would.

Sincerely,

"GAATT"

 

[victor-victim]

i read your story. gaatt.
hope you feel a bit better now that you got that out there.
i know it always helps me to write my thoughts.
your story just goes to show how csa comes in many disguises, and yet still is as deadly as any concealed weapon. abuse of authority power and position by anyone whose traditional and sacred duty is to serve and protect causes massive soul damage.

 

[SubtleStuff]

Hi Victor,

Thanks. Yes uncovering the effects of CSA has been very tricky for me and very confusing. I had the feeling I had a gun to my head for many many years without knowing why. That feeling disappeared when I started talking about myself as having been abused sexually in my youth by my mother.

The writing is helping me feel stronger and more strongly connected to healthy men like you and the others guys on this forum. I've found a healthy sense of community to be very elusive and difficult to create.

Thanks again for your support.

Sincerely,

"GAATT"