Sit quietly and say nothing (triggers?)

Sit quietly and say nothing (triggers?)
R

RobertC

Registrant
This is my first post. So, Hi everyone, I'm Robert.
I was at a training recently (okay, a couple of weeks. However, it took me a couple of weeks to get over this... well, sort of over). The nature of the training was forensic interviewing techniques for child victims.
At one point, the instructor commented that if a male victim does not recieve treatment, then he will become a sexual abuser. It was a small class, so, I took the moment to correct her. I said, "you mean that there is a high probility that, left untreated, they will become sexual abusers." She then made clear that she stood by her first statement when she said, "no, they will become sexual abusers."
As I am sure anyone reading this can gather, this irriated me a lot. I did the right thing, considering the circumstances. I sat quietly through the rest of the training and said nothing on that topic again.
Sometimes I wonder why I enterd this field I started as an adult Social worker and then someone had the great idea that I would make a good CPS investigator. Evry day seems like flashback hell, although I can say that it is an interesting self dirrected therapy, I think that the constant, high intensity, exposure is haveing the effect of dulling my pain (possibly it is just driving me to a different level of pain). However, it may be also dulling my empathy, I hope not.
Well, I hope that this isn't the worst possible way to introduce myself. and for the record, the instructor was wrong, I am not a sexual abuser.
So, anyways, Hi, I'm Robert.
 
Hi Robert,
Welcome, even tho what brought you here we wouldn't wish on anyone.
I definitely am angered but not surprised at the statement the instructor made. The sad thing is the ignorance that exists makes it extra difficult for all of us. Worse yet she is teaching that to others. You had no choice but to remain silent.
I admire you for chosing to help other victims in your work. Perhaps you are feeling less pain because you are healing rather than getting hardened.
I believe that you are not an abuser as the majority here are not tempted to abuse others in any way.
Keep up the good work there and thanks for the post.
Gary
 
Robert C:
Hindsight and thoughts afterwards are always more productive than what you could/should have said at the time. She was totally wrong. Good question to pose when you hear a trainer or "expert" say something that you believe is inaccurate: "Can you give us a citation for that research?"

The sex offender research indicates that there are a number of studies that show a large number of sexual abusers claim victimization histories. When researchers used polygraph on convicted offenders, the rates of those claiming abuse histories dropped significantly, below 40%.

The victimization history of abusers does not give any credibility to her claim. It is as if you went to a drug rehab program and asked heroin users "how many of you used marijuana before you used heroin?" The stats would probably show that the overwhelming majority used pot before they used heroin.

Does that mean that marijuana leads to heroin? No, ideed. The overwhelming number of marijuana users do NOT go on to use heroin. Fallacious logic and totally incorrect.

She has nothing to back her assertion. The overwhelming majority of sexual abuse victims/survivors do not go on to become abusers. The abusers, when polygraphed, are less likely to have legitimate claims of prior victimization (though many do, the majority don't).

Welcome.
Ken
 
There are times a wish Ken Singer came in powder form. " 'Just add water to release a can-o-whoop-ass' on those 'experts' that spout ignorant statements & irritating 'facts' ".
 
SK - polygraphs are reliable in treatment as long as the administrator is trained properly and the questions meet the necessary criteria for polys. TV polys are not true in portraying what they can do nor how they are administered. I agree they are NOT admissable in court.

Ken - "Give 'em heck!!!!!"

BTW: where did they get such an aragant, misinformed and "dangerous" instructor? I hope the students don't take her literally nor seriously!!

Howard
 
Hi Robert!

Welcome to MaleSurvivor. I was abused by my older brother from approximately 9 months old to 11 years old. I never had any desire to abuse. I never had any thoughts of abusing. And I get furious thinking how many people (both men and women) have been held back from getting help for their CSA because of ignorant people like that instructor!

But you do raise another point...I have been reading a really good book by Mike Lew ("Victims No Longer"). In it it he talks of many things that you would probably find of interest. But I am at the chapter now where he is discussing career choices, CSA, and self-esteem. And how all those issues kind of tie in together to determine our level of success in life.

Many male survivors are not always conscious of the career path they have chosen. It is not until they begin to deal with the issues of the abuse that they can really see whether their given career is a positive or a negative for them.

Maybe you will decide that you are the ideal person to be in the field you are pursuing. Certainly, you would bring a level of empathy, understanding, and first-hand knowledge that others wouldn't have.

But maybe, you will also decide that this is a harmful choice for you, because you will have to constantly wall off your own issues in order not to be triggered or too caught up by the person you would be interviewing.

A lot of guys here are reexamining their lives. And that's a good thing. So it's okay at this point to be totally unsure about the work you are presently interested in doing. That too, as I am discovering, is all part of the journey to healing.

Does this make sense?

All the best to you!

Jasper
 
I've asked the ATSA listserv for citations and will post here when I get the results.

Btw, in NJ (and I assume some other states) polygraphs can be admissible in court. In NJ it is called a "stipulated polygraph" in which the prosecutor and defense attorney agree to a polygraph with the results binding. That is, it is agreed ahead of time that if the accused passes, charges are dropped. If he fails, he goes to jail for an agreed upon time.

We use polygraph in a juvenile outpatient program where I consult. It does not result in any new legal charges if a person admits additional offenses (although can result in residential placement if it appears that the problems are more comlex than can be treated in the community, or a new victim such as a sibling is disclosed and the offender will be removed from the home.)

In my adult offender treatment groups, a couple of times offenders with relatively minor offenses of record claim significant differences to what they were accused/found guilty of. I've offered a few the opportunity to take a poly and if they pass, I'll recommend they don't need offense-specific treatment anymore. They have to pay to $300 or so for the exam. If they fail, they continue in treatment til we think it's time to go/graduate from group.

Nobody (adult) has actually followed through with taking the poly. I wonder why?
Ken

Ken
 
Hi Robert - Certainly this was not the worst way possible to introduce yourself. As you can see, you've raised a very important issue that has struck the nerve of more than a few here.

Statistics and polygraphs aside, I personally feel a great desire, even obligation to work with children who have been neglected and/or abused for I am well schooled in those areas on a very personal level. I have, in the past, mentored young boys who have seen horrific things in their short lives and I believe I have had a positive impact on their futures. Not only has that been self gratifying but I also believe it is for the better of society as a whole. Change one life....

But I think it is crucial that we have reached a certain level of recovery before we embark on such noble pursuits. If you have not come to terms with your own past, the present lives of the youngsters you'll be attending to will be a constant reminder that may trigger you endlessly. This could determine your effectiveness in your ability to help where it is needed most. If this notion makes sense to you, you might discuss it with your superiors. Certainly they would want you to be able to perform at your best, in the interest of you, the children and the agency with which you are involved.

As for the nit-wit instructor, she needs some educating. Rather than send the hound-dogs after her (I'd like to have a word with her myself) is it possible for you to contact her or her superior(s) and direct them to this site? She could read the statistics provided on the home page and she could visit the message board here. She might even find a few good books to read in the references or bibliography sections. What greater education on the matter could she find?

Finally, I admire you for posting and I admire you for the work you are doing to protect and help child victims. I can think of no worthier cause. Welcome to MS.org. I hope you find as much enlightenment here as I have. Peace - John
 
Hi Robert, welcome aboard.

This is from our own web page of - Myths About Male Sexual Victimization

Myth #6 - The "Vampire Syndrome"- that is, boys who are sexually abused, like the victims of Count Dracula, go on to "bite" or sexually abuse others.

This myth is especially dangerous because it can create a terrible stigma for the child, that he is destined to become an offender. Boys might be treated as potential perpetrators rather than victims who need help. While it is true that most perpetrators have histories of sexual abuse, it is NOT true that most victims go on to become perpetrators. Research by Jane Gilgun, Judith Becker and John Hunter found a primary difference between perpetrators who were sexually abused and sexually abused males who never perpetrated: non-perpetrators told about the abuse, and were believed and supported by significant people in their lives. Again, the majority of victims do not go on to become adolescent or adult perpetrators; and those who do perpetrate in adolescence usually don't perpetrate as adults if they get help when they are young.

I was abused and I am not an offender.
 
Hi Robert,
Welcome. I can imagine how totally pissed off you felt by hearing that. Hopefully that trainer will find a way to educate herself about the reality as this myth is probably one of the most pervasive and harmful ones about CSA.

If you're still in touch with her, I hope you'll consider directing her here. I'm sure a posting in the Friends and Family Forum would bring plenty of polite and helpful resources for her.

Take care.
 
Welcome, Robert. I'm so sorry you have a need to be here, but so glad you were able to find us. We really do care here and want to help in any way we can. I'm so sorry about your instructor and that someone so misinformed has managed to obtain a position in which, in her unbelievable ignorance, she can do such great harm. Like Dan above, I hope there's some way she can find her way here, and I promise not to write anything if she does, so that the resources will remain as Dan proposes: "polite". Bobby
 
Here is some info on the polygraph:

"I dislike taking things out of context, so the full article and a cache of others is available
upon request at the NAPS website www.polygraphspecialists.org

Taken from Jan Hindman's article in Federal Probation:

By comparing the histories of those whose self-reports were not polygraphed with those whose
accounts were verified by polygraph, a series of studies found that the polygraphed group differed
from the non-polygraphed in several important ways: they reported many more victims, far less
history of having been sexually victimized themselves, and a much higher incidence of having
offended as juveniles.

Group A (Self-Reporting 1978-1983 N= 98) 67% reported being sexually abused as a child
Group B ( Polygraphed with Immunity N=129) 29% reported being sexually abused as a child"

Another source:
"You can also get the article directly from the journal, which is
published by the federal court system, at:
https://www.uscourts.gov/fedprob/2001decfp.pdf

All other issues of the journal are also available at:
https://www.uscourts.gov/library/fpcontents.html

Free, no request necessary."

Ken
 
Originally posted by Ken Singer, LCSW:
"You can also get the article directly from the journal, which is
published by the federal court system, at:
https://www.uscourts.gov/fedprob/2001decfp.pdf
Ken
Click to expand...
Thank you, it was a very interesting article. Defiitly something to keep in mind when talking to the DA about these type of cases. I doubt that we can recomend Polygraph due to the distance to any testing center. However, It is definitly something to think about.
As far as challanging th instructor, I do not feel that I can do that for two resons. First, I know tha I will have more mandatory trainigs, that will have this instructor, in the future. The second reason is, simply, I do not want to label myself. My supervisor knows. It came out durring an investigation that was so similar to my story that I was, well... not my usual, cheer filled, self. I was able to pass the investigation to another officer. However, no one else here knows (I think some have guessed). I would rather keep it that way. See, I am still deep in the closet (no, not Gay, the other closet).
 
Wow, what a first post. Welcome, we may have to add some new storage facilities if you keep suggesting such topics.
I have enjoyed meeting you...shame on your instructor who teaches such sh.t...but welcome to you.
Have to add that my therapist said that sexual abuse suvivors fare really poorly if asked to take a polygraph...it seems it has something to do with feeling so guilty in the first place.
So, if you're arrested anywhere near a bank when it's robbed, don't take a polygraph, you're lible to be found guilty.

David
 
What an ignorant thing to say for a supposed 'professional'. I can understand sitting there quietly and not speaking up. We can not always voice our feelings effectively if they are emotional ones. And also, it is hard to speak out if we are not prepared to speak fully of why/how we believe what we do. I wish that 'professional' would come here and take a poll, and see exactly what abused boys DO become. Doctors, lawyers, computer experts, car salesmen, college students, athletes, actors, activits. Same as non-abused boys. Idiot.

Well, on that note, I do welcome you here, and hope that you can find this a site of use and support to you. You do deserve it. We all do.

Leosha
 
Coming to terms with the fact that I have infact accosted my brothers still does not stop me from shaking my head and saying "Get your head out of your ass, Instructor".

Sounds like False Authority Syndrome to me. the best way to beat that is with citations of *peer reviewed research.
 
I've spent hours looking around the internet for anything regarding CSA.
And even though I have found some rubbish out there, not even NAMBLA still peddle that old crap that we are doomed to become abusers if we don't get help.

Robert, I can understand you keeping quiet and not wanting to rock the boat, but I would find a way of getting this 'trainer' the right information so she doesn't insult everyone the next time she delivers that training.

Dave
 
I dont know where I heard or read the following statement.

"Some will undoubtably go on to abuse but the majority .. I repeat THE MAJORITY DO NOT".

I had the thought after I had just disclose that I would go onto abuse, that screwed my head up for weeks. It got so bad I relapsed with booze.

Sober now though

Kirk
 
I just don't understand how ignorant people like that get jobs in the first place.

best wishes ..Rik
 
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