Sexual recovery

[EdfromNYC]

I am 8 months abstinent from all sexual activity. It hasn't been that difficult because I was ready. I had been around 12 step rooms for a long time and I had a foot in there and I just jumped in 100% and I've been doing 12 step work and am moving right along. I am healing and can see it and feel it.

I was just reading yet another post about someone claiming that "gay isn't a choice". Nope, it isn't. However, for me, it is a choice to move on from it and that is absolutely for real. I didn't choose to be gay but I never was gay. As a matter fact, there may not even be such a thing but that's another matter. It may simply be a made up thing, in my opinion. No one has to agree with me and people can vehemently disagree but so be it. That's not even why I am posting but I wanted to add that for my own sake.

I am finally finding my hetero nature underneath all of the acting out with men that I did for 15 years and then 20 more years of mostly solo acting out and not being able to break the "habit" but trying and hating it for so many years. I finally hit bottom and was ready to do whatever necessary to allow my natural identity the space, time and respect that it needed and deserved.

I was a 13 year old who was abused by a male stranger that I blamed myself for. I also thought I must be gay since I "enjoyed" it. And I went for more and was further abused and used. I didn't think of it as abuse. It mostly felt good physically and i kept going back even though it often wasn't good but I kept hoping. The hunt became a huge part of it for me.

So now, I'm almost 50 and finally getting to do what I want and explore what I want. There were lots of childhood factors why i couldn't explore and why I wouldn't let myself explore but I am uncovering all of the crap and slowly letting it go and challenging it. It is hopeful to really be recovering from abuse and getting over the fear of alienating others by sharing my opinion about sexuality, both mine and in general.

I am reaching out all over the place for healing because I am going to heal. i will do whatever I need to do to heal and I guess that is where we need to get to.

 

[1lifenow]

I think its wonderful you are healing in a way you can both feel it and see it. Personal experience is a powerful thing when you are finally allowing yourself to explore more about your inner sense of self.

When you say you agree gay isn't a choice but it is a choice to move on from it. Again you are entitled to your definition of that but for most and the generally accepted constructs , you really moved on from a man having sex with men. "Gay" has come to mean men that desire to be with men both for sex and for love. Not merely the sex act itself.

Men who have sex with men are often not really gay at all. They may be understood to be bi or straight men imprinted by sexual abuse. In both these cases there is subsequently the desire for the physically pleasurable aspects of sexual stimulation to the genitals with another man, without a desire to cuddle, caress, kiss and roll over and go to sleep in a loving embrace.

It is a great thing you are finally healing after so long. I hope in your recovery there comes a time when you can enjoy sexual relations in a way that truly works for you.

 

[C. E.]

"Gay" has come to mean men that desire to be with men both for sex and for love. Not merely the sex act itself.

Men who have sex with men are often not really gay at all. They may be understood to be bi or straight men imprinted by sexual abuse. In both these cases there is subsequently the desire for the physically pleasurable aspects of sexual stimulation to the genitals with another man, without a desire to cuddle, caress, kiss and roll over and go to sleep in a loving embrace.

So then a guy who just wants sex from a woman but is not looking for a desire to cuddle, kiss and love her is not really straight?

 

[EdfromNYC]

Again you are entitled to your definition of that but for most and the generally accepted constructs , you really moved on from a man having sex with men.

No, I am moving on from being gay. I didn't just have sex with men. I had an overidentification with women; I was uninterested in many traditionally masculine things; I avoided men/masculiniity out of fear; I rejected and judged other men; amid other things. I've had many systematic, problematic ways of viewing men, women and myself and I idealized certain men from a young age as "other" than myself and I was taken advantage of by first one man and then others and I was for all intents and purposes, gay. I tried to accept it as the way that I must be but it never felt right and it felt like I was trying to put on a suit that never quite fit. Then, I started looking into literature about moving out of it and it fit!! And it is starting to take effect.

So I did choose to leave behind maladapted ways of viewing the sexes and sex. My sex abuse was due to predators taking advantage of my longing for connection to men and my already defective internal system (due to family - maybe some genetics/birth order stuff) and I ran with it thinking I must be gay. I am unraveling a lot of stuff and I am mourning a lot of time avoiding dealing with this as fully as I am because I was afraid of being attacked as not having a legitimate point of view or experience.

Sexual identity is not defined for me by anyone else. "Generally accepted constructs" doesn't mean much beyond that being the generally promoted message that drowns out all other messages, to me. It feels like a way of trying to diminish my actual experience.

Edit: I have to be really careful about engaging in this "debate". It doesn't help me to do so because, for me, it becomes "I'm right, you're wrong". I am only writing for me. No one is an authority on sex and identity and orientation. Each one of us has to find his way. And each one of us has to room to do so especially on here. And this also takes away from the commonality of recovering from sexual abuse, for me. I must keep up front that we were all victims and we all suffered and we are all cleaning up damage.

 

[manipulated]

"And this also takes away from the commonality of recovering from sexual abuse, for me. I must keep up front that we were all victims and we all suffered and we are all cleaning up damage."

Amen. Please don't let anyone divide and misguide the true discussion and unfortunate reason we are all here: Because of perps WE have to clean up the damage. Let's concentrate on clean up and leave the rest to individual discovery.

 

[C. E.]

[quote:Ed from New York City]I have to be really careful about engaging in this "debate". It doesn't help me to do so because, for me, it becomes "I'm right, you're wrong". I am only writing for me. No one is an authority on sex and identity and orientation. Each one of us has to find his way. And each one of us has to room to do so especially on here. And this also takes away from the commonality of recovering from sexual abuse, for me. I must keep up front that we were all victims and we all suffered and we are all cleaning up damage.[/quote]
That was perfect, Ed. It really expresses something I have felt for a long time - that we all have our own "truths" that we have come to from the different paths we have walked through this. Because many of us were isolated in our experience and kept secrets for years and in some cases even decades, those paths can get very personal. Many of us did not have an opportunity to form a consensus view, and so this site will host a wide variety of very individual, non-homogenized perspectives. And each one will be true to the survivor who carries it. They are not likely to have been casually born out of armchair speculation or casual pedantry. I suspect that most come from some very deep places within us. Every survivor's perspective deserves to be respected if for no other reason than it reflects how that survivor had to grow his life around something in order to psychically survive.

[quote:1LifeNow]"Gay" has come to mean men that desire to be with men both for sex and for love. Not merely the sex act itself.

Men who have sex with men are often not really gay at all. They may be understood to be bi or straight men imprinted by sexual abuse. In both these cases there is subsequently the desire for the physically pleasurable aspects of sexual stimulation to the genitals with another man, without a desire to cuddle, caress, kiss and roll over and go to sleep in a loving embrace.[/quote]
Is there source material for this statement? It makes little sense to me. If this is a personal perspective, I can definitely respect that. But it seems to be presented as a general putative fact that would apply to all.

This is just my own perspective - and I would be open to being corrected - but that statement seems to rephrase something as a way to mitigate the pain of looking at it more honestly. My own personal belief is that if sexual imprinting is powerful enough to drive sexual behavior beyond what we consider appropriate for ourselves, then that is the very definition of sexual orientation. Kissing and cuddling and even falling in love seem to me far less limbic - and hence less defining - than core sexual drive.

 

[1lifenow]

Chase Eric quote:
So then a guy who just wants sex from a woman but is not looking for a desire to cuddle, kiss and love her is not really straight?

Yes that can be correct. I remember sleeping with woman because I was a sexually charged young man. I would turn over and go to sleep with the duty of small talk over. I found it ok. But I was not straight, I was a gay man living a heterosexual lifestyle. That may be true for Ed in the reverse, I don't know and I am not judging. Just offering a different respectful view.

 

[1lifenow]

Diminishing anyones personal experience is tantamount to John McEnroe telling the Ump he can't be serious. We all see things as we do and I am certainly not attacking anyone else's perspective. Simply Respectfully offering an alternative take. My understanding is sexual behavior is not the same as sexual orientation especially where CSA and imprinting are concerned.

It is a really tough struggle for all of us. I remember my first T who deals almost exclusively with male CSA survivors when I was questioning my sexuality saying that if a man is truly gay he will feel that it is all coming together for him. The desire , the sexual encounter, the bonding and ultimately the love.

If a man is acting in a way that he doesn't as you say "consider appropriate for ourselves". If he finds it stressful, if he feels guilty and coerced and it does not feel "right" in his very core, then there is a greater likelihood that he is behaving in a way that is more related to imprinting. Ed is entitled to define it any way he wishes, but from the outside that sounds more like what Ed had going on in his life. He may have thought he was gay on the face of it. It's more than understandable but now that concept is stressful to the point he is taking time out from sex to re-evaluate. That is a healthy thing to do, I did the same thing.

I met a guy recently in town from Chicago. He is an army Dr who was twice married. He told me he truly didn't understand he was gay until he kissed a man and made love in a way that resonated for him. And it may have resonated with Ed at the time, I don't know. But clearly it does not now.

There are no absolutes here and was not presented in a way that was had any intension of being putative. As Ed said himself, he thought he was gay. But if his true heart does not belong there , then it is absolutely the right thing for him to move on. I wish him and all other survivors only more happiness.

 

[bey]

After years of sleeping with women, struggling with hetro relationships, I have finally settled down with a nice guy. I do still have OSA (opposite sex attraction) of course. Sometimes I act on it, sometimes I don't.
For me, being gay is absolutly a choice. My choice. Relationships with women are too difficult, too triggering or whatever. I am happy in my relationship, after 30+ years figuring out what worked and why, I made my choice. I dont think I was born gay, I was just born Benjamin and I have chosen the life that works best for me.
I think you are totally right and we really all do have to find what works best for us, what our personal truths are and what we want to be. We get to choose how we live. Good luck with it all, Ed.

Ben

 

[EdfromNYC]

This is beautiful. The honesty is great and I believe and trust you. I also understand how difficult it is with women and I have a lot of issues there and I wonder whether I am going to be able to sort enough of it out to get on with things. I'm coming out of my lifelong post-abuse coma and seeing that life has passed me by in many developmental ways because I spent so much time fretting alone about all of this stuff and rather then dealing with it and moving on, I tried to figure it all out on my own and got stuck and stopped living. No more and not too late but sadness and grieving coming into my life so I need hope.

I respect your experience very much and it gives me hope because obviously you struggled with some of the same things that I have and you've made a choice for yourself that sounds fulfilling. I need to hear more about other men's sexual choices/lives post-abuse where there some positive outcome whether straight, gay, whatever or even non-sexual.

 

[Hoping4Peace]

Hooray for your stance! I grew up heterosexual and attracted to girls at an early age, but my father had me fondling his cock in the bathroom when I was 6 and 7. Also had a neighbor boy and we would suck each other often at 7 (he was the instigator all the time). But I fell in love with three classmate girls over the years- never boys. When I was 12 my father came home at dawn after being out with another woman cheating like he would often do, and my mother stood up to him and it was a horrible fight with my mother being overpowered and beaten. I somehow snapped inside and became obsessed with penises and the bulges in men's pants and peeping in bathroom windows and fantasies re my scout leader. I became suddenly gay due to trauma.... so strange.

I Love your courage and out of the box thinking. I am thinking that way too... so much of who we are is due to trauma. If a man is 100% attracted to other males and has never had any trauma, then it is natural and he is gay, but if his natural orientation was corrupted by trauma and abuse, then maybe he needs to get fixed? I am seeking healing too... been married for 36 years and it is wonderful sex and all, I have not been actively gay since I was 15, but I gravitate to cock focused internet porn when I travel or when Wifey goes traveling. At least I now realize what happened and can work on it.

Austin

 

[C. E.]

[quote:Austin54] If a man is 100% attracted to other males and has never had any trauma, then it is natural and he is gay, but if his natural orientation was corrupted by trauma and abuse, then maybe he needs to get fixed? I am seeking healing too...[/quote]
The first thing I need to say is that no one else can speak your truth. I know that because I know it is true that no one can speak my truth for me. But here at MS - and in therapy - I have been challenged to look deeper at those truths. Among the many things in my life that have been distorted from the abuse, perhaps the biggest is my ability to look at myself honestly. It is in that spirit that I share these thoughts, which may or may not apply to you.

One thing that struck me is the statement about how you might want to "get it fixed," followed immediately by the word "healing." I found - for me at least - the only thing I can get fixed is my perspective - the way I see myself and those around me. I'm not sure that I can ever fix my sexual orientation - and that includes the sexual "gravitations" that you alluded to in your last paragraph. I suppose my question would be if anyone has ever been truly successful in changing their orientation, their attractions, their inclinations. I am not aware of any.

And yet "healing" can occur. It is not recovery - i.e. getting it "fixed". It is healing over the festering wounds, living with who we had to become - who we had no choice to become. I have come to think of healing and recovery as opposite pursuits. Recovery seems to imply a return to a previous state. In my case, the pursuit of recovery would be a lie. My inability to "recover" precisely defines the depth of the damage. I suppose it makes sense that if we were able to recover from a sexual assault like we recovered from a punch to the solar plexus by a bully that this site would not need to exist. In my pursuit of a recovery that was impossible for me, I virtually ensured I would not heal. My work at recovery only kept those wounds open, salted and bleeding. My work at recovery ensured I would not heal - much like a soldier who loses a leg and instead of closing the wound and accepting the loss, pokes and prods the open flesh in an effort to grow a new one. My truth - recovery and healing are mutually exclusive. My truth - recovery is a deception, a mirage. Not the truth. Just my truth.

I guess a lot of where I come from on this is from that stigma of being gay. It shut me up for so long. My abuse was a "gay" thing more than a boundary thing - the latter being much closer to the fundamental issue. And beyond the stigma that perhaps I was imprinted - that my nascent sexual identity was more malleable at twelve/thirteen - there was also the fact that I just did not want to be gay. So I blamed being gay on my abuser, and every time I felt a pull in that direction and acceded to it, it felt like a nod to my abuser, another victimization, an acknowledgement of what he turned me into.

But I have learned to look at it another way - and again, this is just me - but I share it because the angst in your post touches feelings I have felt myself. I felt like I was wasting my whole life fighting those feelings - my escalating efforts didn't make a dent in my urges. To be clear, I went around the world with this. I sought therapy and was given a regimen of exercises - at fifteen! - to save myself from my "boyfriend" and from a life entrenched as gay (that so-called "therapist" found gays disgusting, by the way - so I embraced her as much as she despised me because I was convinced she would be as relentless as I was committed). I pursued the cutest girls convinced that only the prettiest had the power to change me. I enrolled myself directly into one of the most hazardous military specialties available just to prove myself tough enough - that if I could face death every day on that tightrope - it proved my mettle enough to do anything, and thus being straight by feeling straight would overpower the orientation I felt. It sounds a bit ridiculous now - but these are the lengths I went to. I was molested through my teens, emerged from it feeling like the biggest pussy around. And it didn't help that I was slender and meek in high school and picked on a lot. Ten years later, at my reunion - a paradigm shift. All those tough, straight jocks were now peddling software in pink shirts and ties while this little gay boy was strapping explosives and running training missions that some of his friends never returned from. And yet I'm still gay. It certainly wasn't from lack of trying. Maybe I just did it wrong.

It was only much later that I came to understand two things:

1) Being gay was not so much my abuser's creation as it was mine. It was not so much his taking advantage of my weakness as it was my adapting to his weakness for me. That's really a truth - and one that took me my lifetime so far to discover. My strength was my ability to grow around what I had no choice to grow around. By denying my orientation, I thought I was denying him - denying the influence from him that echoed without attenuation over the years. But the truth was that I was only denying myself. And in the process, too, denying a beautiful part of me.

2) And if I had to be gay because he "made" me gay - then so be it. By denying who I was - who I had to be - I was in fact giving him ownership of my life still. By embracing who I am - who I had to be - I own me. Fully.

I gravitate to cock focused internet porn when I travel or when Wifey goes traveling. At least I now realize what happened and can work on it.

At thirty-six years of marriage, you must by definition have traveled some distance down the path of your life by now. I hope that when you "work on it," you do so with as much respect for who you had to become to survive what you did. I have heard the serenity prayer before, never much thought of it until just now. Perhaps you will find more success than I have in changing those things you wish to change.

...............God grant me the serenity
...............to accept the things I cannot change;
...............courage to change the things I can;
...............and wisdom to know the difference.
...............

 

[Hoping4Peace]

Thanks Chase for that... lots of wisdom there. I agree with your definition of recovery and your examples are great re the loss of a leg- it s impossible to recover. What is possible is healing: accepting the handicap and working with it so that it no longer is a central issue, that it does not threaten our dreams and goals. My goal now is to be a great husband, father, and grandfather, and to be of service to the community around me. The internet porn really is like a drug and it is affecting my dreams and goals. That is what I can recover from, and so that will be my focus and goal, better self control. Thanks for helping give me some perspective- it was helpful!

Maleness is less a sexual thing and more of a protector and defender and provider thing. You are quite the man!