Secondary Victims -- thoughts?

Secondary Victims -- thoughts?
S

SAR

Hi everyone,

I'm wondering what all of your thoughts are about this... with Dave (Lloydy)'s permission I am restarting a discussion I started with him via PM a day or two ago.

In the thread started by Emry titled "I need some advice too," I noticed and took issue with the phrasing of some of Dave's (excellent) advice-- specifically the part that said
Also think about yourself, make sure that you don't become a secondary victim.
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I've always understood "secondary victim" to mean anyone close to the primary victim (in this case, a SA survivor), who endures any kind of harm or suffering as a result of the survivor's SA, or a loved one who experiences feelings very much like the feelings of the victim (anger, fear, helplessness). I've also seen "secondary victim" applied to witnesses and first responders.

By this definition, I was a secondary victim of my boyfriend's abuse before I ever knew he was a victim of sexual abuse at all-- since I found out about his acting out online about two months before he was able to fully disclose to me about his abuse. I think we all agree that the acting out is a direct effect of the abuse, and it certainly did me harm and suffering... especially in the first two months, before I knew what was going on.

So my question to Dave was-- Where does the "make sure" come in? How was I supposed to "make sure" that my boyfriend didn't hurt me by doing a hurtful thing that was motivated almost entirely by forces within himself? I think we all agree that if it were in anyone's power to "make sure" that he or she didn't become a victim, there would be no victims. So is this a fair burden to put on family and friends?

There is no avoiding some hurt and helplessness as a partner of a survivor. When family and friends post here to say that they've been abandoned, attacked, betrayed--I think it's a little late for "make sure"-- and I don't think it's fair to suggest that this secondary victimization is something that they can "make sure" to avoid again, unless they decide to sever ties with the survivor.

What I believed that Dave wanted to convey in his post is something that I entirely agree with, although I'd have phrased it differently. When we as partners/supporters in someone else's healing become over-involved, try to heal for the survivor, or stop taking good care of ourselves, it leads to severe burn-out and further feelings of victimization-- more intense depression, helplessness, confusion, anger, etc., and an inability to get out of dysfunctional patterns. We can make sure, or at least do our best to try, to avoid this re-victimization. It is our responsibility as partners to keep ourselves safe and whole, to maintain healthy boundaries and distance from our partner's issues, AND to remember compassion and patience as we support-- I guess, to move out of the mindset of a secondary victim and become a "secondary survivor."

Is there a separate journey we need to make from secondary victim to secondary survivor--especially if we've been directly harmed through assault, infidelity, and/or addiction caused by the abuse? Are we responsible for "our" victimization, or for our continued feelings of victimization if we end up supporting a survivor in ways that are unhealthy for us? Since so much of the healing process is obviously in the hands of the survivor, what real control do we have over our secondary healing process?
 
Originally posted by SAR:


*stuff snipped**

So my question to Dave was-- Where does the "make sure" come in? How was I supposed to "make sure" that my boyfriend didn't hurt me by doing a hurtful thing that was motivated almost entirely by forces within himself?

*stuff snipped**

So is this a fair burden to put on family and friends?

*stuff snipped**

Is there a separate journey we need to make from secondary victim to secondary survivor--especially if we've been directly harmed through assault, infidelity, and/or addiction caused by the abuse?

*stuff snipped**

Are we responsible for "our" victimization, or for our continued feelings of victimization if we end up supporting a survivor in ways that are unhealthy for us? Since so much of the healing process is obviously in the hands of the survivor, what real control do we have over our secondary healing process?
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Good questions - I have mulled them over in my own head many times as I continue to battle my fiance's angry outbursts... inappropriate expression and appropriation of his anger is still a major burden in our relationship.

I guess I understand both sides of this argument -I think part of what we struggle with as partners is what SAR has described - we sometimes dont see the attacks or the hurts coming.. and we do get blindsided and we do get hurt, and there is only so much we can do to stop it. I dont think there's anything we can do to completely stop this stuff, and truly the responsibilty does lie with our partners to NOT do these things to us. We should indeed not be held responsible for "allowing" this stuff to happen. Our partners are still on occasion choosing behaviour that is painful to us, and that is their responsibility. I get into this philosophical discussion with my fiance sometimes - he alwyas says that I can completely "choose my reaction to his behaviour" and in my opinion, that's crap. If someone does something that hurts you, you're going to feel pain if you are at all human. I can choose how I express those feelings, and try to keep them within acceptable boundaries, but I am going to obviously FEEL pain.. THAT reaction I cannot choose.

However, I have had two run ins with my fiance lately that have gone two different ways which really illustrates this issue in my own life with a survivor. The first fight I had with my fiance was about 2 weeks ago. It came out of NOWHERE (I think he got triggered, unfortunately he has such a poker face that its impossible to tell that anything is wrong until BAM we're into it) and it got damn nasty and hurtful, it got down into the gutters. The other one, last saturday, I made up my mind to "not go there" and when he started the whole "you dont listen to me your behaviour is telling me I dont deserve to be heard" the whole victim mentaity, etc.. this time I didnt bite. I stood my ground and told him that in no way did I do ANYTHING to convey that he does not deserve to be heard. That he is important and that I love him but that these are issues that started LONG before I came on the scene and I deserve at least for him to spend some time and figure out REALLY where these feeelings are coming from, if he is being triggered, and to please focus the hurt back on those that actually caused this problem, and not on me". He tried to continue to egg me into a fight but I didn't bite. He sat and pouted for about an hour and then he apologized.

The difference that changed the outcome of these two fights was MY mindset. I was still working hard on deconstructing and resolving the last fight, reading up on a lot of info. on "treating myself with respect and with honesty" and not allowing myself to be treated with anything less than I deserved. I currently work in a somewhat hostile work environment and have to constantly arm myself against unfair attacks, and spend a lot of time reading on these issues. And I find that most of the pain that comes from these attacks is when they trigger my OWN insecurities. Its when I"m feeling MOST secure that these attacks can just bounce off and show themselves for the ridiculousness that they are. But its when I'm feeling down, and insecure, and needy is when these attacks, from either a coworker or my partner, have the ability to inflict the most pain.

So in a sense, I think the "recovery" from "secondary victim to secondary survivor" really revolves around getting OURSELVES as healthy as we can be so that the insanity of a flashback episode, a trigger event, or any other thing that can cause our partner to start spinning out of control does NOT knock us off our centre. That we have a responsibilty to ourselves to learn how to be as grounded as we can in the middle of chaos. Only then I think we'll be able to be our own anchors and a model of how to behave even in the midst of turmoil.

I feel so proud of myself during those times when I dont bite, when I believe in myself so much that I dont allow un-founded attacks to get me riled up. It gives me a lot of security about myself in this world and I dont live in as much dread as I usually do thinking the "what if" game (what if someone at work corks off and says something hurtful? What if my fiance comes home in a state and starts smashing stuff again?).

Anyhow.. I have spent a LOT of time analysing what is "his stuff" and what is "my stuff" in these interactions... and I think that is the best thing we can do - to look at what we can do that is not helping the situation and try to improve on those thigns. For me, working on my own insecurities and self esteem issues for me, are the best things I can do to protect myself against his temporary insanities.

Anyhow.. I hope this helps.
 
Hey PAS -

Does the phrase "Sovereignty Association" sound familiar???? ;) ;) Just lately, it has taken on a completely new meaning for me.

I think that is the only way we can continue these kinds of relationships: if our partner chooses to act in counter-productive/ hurtful ways, we have to learn how not to allow ourselves to be manipulated into reacting with our own hurt, shame, & anger.

Unfortunately, this means we have to scale back our own expectations of what love & support is available to us from our most intimate relationship. If our needs exceed "his" grasp, it is time to think about ending the relationship. If, on the other hand, we are strong enough to tough it out, the rewards will be worth it.

Don't forget to BREATHE in the meantime....
 
"I dont think there's anything we can do to completely stop this stuff, and truly the responsibilty does lie with our partners to NOT do these things to us."

Yes, that is our responsibility, and a part of joint responsibilities is to set boundaries. Although we all know how they can get trampled on, as PAS also points out -

"Our partners are still on occasion choosing behaviour that is painful to us, and that is their responsibility. I get into this philosophical discussion with my fiance sometimes - he alwyas says that I can completely "choose my reaction to his behaviour" and in my opinion, that's crap."

"The difference that changed the outcome of these two fights was MY mindset. "

This is where my "Make sure" comment comes in, partners need to develop a mindset from the earliest possible time that ensures they remain in charge of themselves and their emotional position. Which is what worked for PAS, and her survivor partner, in the second 'fight'.
The first one was a loser for both of you, the second however was "win-win".
PAS kept the lid on the whole situation and came out in control - not of her partner as such, but of herself and her place in the situation.
He came out, ( after a sulk ) realising that the swift emotional outburst he'd used before to mask his bad feelings / triggers isn't going to work any more.
Ooohhhh - scary feeling! "what the f**k do I replace it with?"

The follow up has to be one of mutually working out his triggers and developing new coping techniques.

To go back to my initial use of "make sure" when talking about a partners committment to their well-being, that's exactly what I have in mind. Partners must make sure they come out of any 'bruising' encounter with a survivor intact, or at least only take a minor 'bruising' that you know you can get over.

Dave
 
Ohh PAS-- It is so interesting that you put this in:
he alwyas says that I can completely "choose my reaction to his behaviour" and in my opinion, that's crap. If someone does something that hurts you, you're going to feel pain if you are at all human. I can choose how I express those feelings, and try to keep them within acceptable boundaries, but I am going to obviously FEEL pain.. THAT reaction I cannot choose.
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More than once, I have encountered something similar, I've even seen it here a few times. It's by no means a majority opinion, but I'm sure it's part of the reason that even a well-intentioned "make sure you don't get further victimized"-type comment is going to hit a raw nerve, with me anyway. The line seems to go something like "You're not the survivor, you have no reason to complain about your pain, because you CHOOSE it, you could walk away from it any time you liked because it's not inside you like it is in the survivor."

I did not choose to have my boyfriend be a SA survivor. I did not chase after some troubled guy looking to heal him. I just accepted the guy I loved, troubles and all. I did not choose to discover that he did a whole assortment of contemptible shit, including go behind my back with some girl online, with what seemed to me like no real reason. Neither did I choose the compassion, care, and sorrow I felt when he disclosed to me. All of those memories are part of my pain and part of who I am, and I don't know why the "no one's story is worse than anyone else's" line goes right out the window for some people when it comes to us.

If just being close to and having deep emotional responses to a survivor on his road to recovery is enough to make one a secondary victim, then we are all secondary victims when we get here. The question is not "how do we keep from being victimized by our partner's abuse," but rather "how do we survive and heal ourselves on some path that runs generally parallel to the survivor's." Because as Kolisha has mentioned, continuing in these relationships otherwise means that someone will get hurt, someone will make huge sacrifices, someone will either have to scale down their needs or do without.

I wonder how much of our "secondary victim" mindset (and our susceptibility to further hurt) is due to the feeling that the people around us are discounting, ignoring, or withdrawing from our pain. I know that for many of us, getting out of this mindset is easier once someone has validated or at least listened to our pain... if that someone is also the survivor we care about then it gets much easier. PAS, I wonder what your mindset would have been the day after the second fight if he hadn't come and apologized. Still better than the first one because at least you know that YOU didn't get down in the trenches, but I'd guess not as good as it was given that he did come around.

I'm sure this whole issue of validation for ourselves and our pain is compounded by the survivor's feelings that our pain is not their fault, not something they should have to apologize for... and of course at the same time clearly their fault, and they are horrible for doing it to us and they don't want to think or talk about it because they'd like it to disappear. I mean if my boyfriend was acting out because of the abuse that was not his fault, then how could the pain that came from those actions be his fault? And he was hurt from it too... and then at the same time, he hates himself for it, and thinks it's the worst thing he's done in his life and can't "deal with" my feelings about it because that's too much for him, and it puts him right back in the place he was when he acted out to begin with.

I think there is a difference between fault and responsibility. I use the example of deliveries with my boyfriend. It is his responsibility at work to keep the place stocked with supplies. If the truck is late or the distributor screws up the order, it is not his fault that the supplies are not there, but it is his responsibility to do something about it before they open for business... if that means going to the grocery store and buying what he needs to get through the day, or getting on the phone with whoever screwed up, or apologizing to annoyed customers, then HE has to do it, or it will come back to him when his boss gets to work. If his boss does get to work and the supplies are not there, the question to him will not be, "Why did you make the truck late," it will be "What are you going to do now that you are aware of this problem."

It does continue to hurt us when the people we are trying to empathize with and support cannot even make a move towards doing the same for us. Especially when we are trying SO hard. I think that's why it's important NOT to try so hard. Generally, the survivor "gets" our pain, and his role in it, and is able to do something about it, at a much later point in his healing journey than the point where we need it as partners. I think this is where feelings of re-victimization and burnout occur, when, in order to keep moving, we need something our partner is not ready to give.

That's why I agree with PAS, we need to be independent and work on ourselves, so that we don't need to go to our partners so much when they can't give to us, so that we can save ourselves that drama and disappointment by getting what we need from within. I just wonder how long anyone can go to herself, when she'd rather be going to her partner, without doing so at the expense of the relationship.
 
SAR

Generally, the survivor "gets" our pain, and his role in it, and is able to do something about it, at a much later point in his healing journey than the point where we need it as partners. I think this is where feelings of re-victimization and burnout occur, when, in order to keep moving, we need something our partner is not ready to give.
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Of all your post, this section stood out. And it's a truly insightful post all Survivors with partners should read, as indeed this whole topic is becoming.
But what I've quoted here is spot-on.

When you need us to validate your feelings, emotions and actions the most, we're usually oblivious. Not uncaring or ignorant, just so wrapped up in ourselves that everything else becomes secondary. When I first disclosed and started working on myself I had to be told to shower and wash! For maybe 12 to 18 months life stood still for me.
And of course this is the same time you are reeling from our disclosures, perhaps discovery of our dysfunctional behaviours. It's only natural that you need someone to turn to as well, and the natural person is the one you love - but he's out there, somewhere.....

Hopefully we come home, and repay our debts. I thought I was doing just that, and maybe I was to a degree? But the last week or so I have sensed a change within me and I feel different about our relationship, my wife has had an operation and it's my turn to play nursey. My 'time' to act responsibly even?
I get the feeling that what I tried to do to address her needs I did because I realised I needed to do it. More recently I'm starting to do these things because it's the natural thing for me to do. ( am I making sense here? )
My wife is strong, and we do talk a lot and very openly. But I do know that although she never admits it she does internalize a lot of her feelings about my situation.
Early on I was oblivious, later on I tried to do the right thing, and now I'm starting to do it naturally, because I love her and want to do the right thing.
But it's taken me five years from disclosing.


The line seems to go something like "You're not the survivor, you have no reason to complain about your pain, because you CHOOSE it, you could walk away from it any time you liked because it's not inside you like it is in the survivor."
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I know you're talking mainly about your own situation here, and although we might be getting into a discussion of semantics ( which started this topic ;) ) I would disagree with the strength of your words a bit, at least I hope they aren't typical of the majority of Survivors.
You DO have reason to complain, you did NOT choose it, and we DON'T want you to walk away from it.
Most of us disclose first to someone we love, with great fear and trepidation, the last thing we want is to watch you walk away.

Dave
 
Hope all is well with Mrs. Dave.....
 
>>>PAS, I wonder what your mindset would have been the day after the second fight if he hadn't come and apologized. Still better than the first one because at least you know that YOU didn't get down in the trenches, but I'd guess not as good as it was given that he did come around.

I think I'd have been PISSED... and I'm a damn stubborn person so I KNOW I'd still be sitting there, holding out for an apology, and making NO bones about it to him exactly what I was expecting from him.

I dont think the relationship would have gotten to the point that it did if he was the type to have NEVER taken responsibilty for his behaviour/outbursts. I dont think this is something he's going to suddenly start doing, 3 years into the relationship, when he's always had at least some element of remorse and willingness to figure out what he could do to improve things.

There were NUMEROUS times where he could have chosen NOT to step up to the plate, to take the low road instead of the high road, to run away, to retreat from therapy, to just stay stuck, or to dump my demanding self from his life. And he didn't. But if he had stalled me or continued not taking responsibility, I really dont think the relationship would have lasted six months. I think I would have been so damn miserable and he would have just walked.. which he almost did MANY times mind you... but I dont think the relationship would have lasted. I drew a LOT of lines in the sand for him early on.. and he chose to (mostly) respect them.

And what was the bond that did keep us through those phases? What made him stick with me when he broke it off with all others? A prior friendship. This relationship with all its abuse issues would NOT have had a hope in hell without a friendship base to go on. Many times when both of us could NOT be good "lovers" and we were all so freaked out, we just went "ok lets take off that "lover" hat and put it aside for now and put on our "friend" hat and turn to each other in friendship as friends would do and REALLY LISTEN from the heart". Because we had a long, common past history it was possible for us to do that.

While we DO still get into some pretty big fights, he IS at a stage where he has done some healing, enough to at least sometimes be aware of what's goign on and start to take some responsibility for his behaviour. And he IS the type to apologize after the fact, many times. He's still working it out and still has a hard time sometimes stopping things BEFORE they start to get too ugly, as am I and as are we both together.

However, this very morning I was on a bit of a tear re: my own abuse issues (only about 15 of my family members and friends are coming to the wedding and he has about 80 (mostly family). Most of my extended family is pretty dysfunctional and it was hurting me a LOT (triggering my "nobody loves me" abandonment issues) and I started attacking HIM.. eesh.. exactly what I accuse him of.. and WOWEE this morning HE stopped things and soothed things and we didnt fight even though I called him a bad name.. yipes :( I am totally impressed and grateful!!! I feel all warm and fuzzy towards him now!!

>>>>I mean if my boyfriend was acting out because of the abuse that was not his fault, then how could the pain that came from those actions be his fault? And he was hurt from it too... and then at the same time, he hates himself for it, and thinks it's the worst thing he's done in his life and can't "deal with" my feelings about it because that's too much for him, and it puts him right back in the place he was when he acted out to begin with.

Yeah this cycle, the self-blame-a-thon is a pretty tough one. My partner has had some incidences of this too - where he is acting out of fear or repressed anger due to his abuse history, and then he "acts out" and then he feels shame for not even knowing how or why it happened.. its tough on him. Then he feels EXTRA bad.. but really I agree with SAR's analysis - that it is not his FAULT but it is his RESPONSIBILITY to start learning a new and better way of dealing with his fears, anxieties, anger.

>>>I think there is a difference between fault and responsibility.

Big time.

Fault - assignment of blame. NOBODY feels good. It's also a "backwards looking" thing. I HATE blame - its useless. The past is the past, its OVER. You can continue to process your feelings about what has past transpired, but there's nothing anyone can DO about it. There's nothing more maddening than for people to go "you should have, could have, why didn't you do this.. that".. AAAUGHGG! But responsibility is a way to take the past, learn from it and use it for "good not evil".

>>>I think this is where feelings of re-victimization and burnout occur, when, in order to keep moving, we need something our partner is not ready to give.

Yes - and that point we have to be BRUTALLY honest with ourselves - if this situation had to continue for a month, six months, a year, or more.. could we deal with it? How would we deal with it? Are we being fair to ourselves AND to our partners to continually expect something that someone may not be able to give?

Its a big trap to get into a relationship with someone that's not suitable for us, or is in a different space and time, on a different time line due to whatever reason (career interests, dealing with abuse issues, lack of maturity, different life goals) and "hope they will change" to suit our own interests and timelines. Timing IS everything in a relationship.

I've been in relationships with someone I looked at as a "fixer upper" (someone who was OK but had a lot of issues and I thought I could get in there and "fix them") a few times and wound up dumped.. woo big surprise ey? They didnt want me to fix them, they wanted me to LOVE them, and I couldnt. I had to learn the hard way that I better damn well be happy with them and/or able to cope with the relationship drawbacks otherwise I should just not be in the relationship. Thats the only thing I regret about those relationships - that I didnt have the guts to do the right thing and leave earlier and keep both of our dignities intact. Breaking up is not without its grief and trauma, but I think we would have been better off than letting things go to the point where they were so bad. Mind you - the last guy I dated for a long time, when I did want to have a serious discussion on the matter, I was first blown off and then begged not to leave because he "loved me", only to have him run off six months later with his best friend's roommate... but I digress...

To stay in a relationship with someone who's just not on the same wavelength for too long, who can't give to relationship to the level that we expect (as long as its reasonable of course) no matter WHY can cause so many issues and hurts and frustrations. We owe it to ourselves and to our partners that if something is just NOT working to really, truly look at the relationship and probably make some big decisions (intensive therapy? temporary separation?) in order to protect the dignity of BOTH partners. I have had to look at this a few times in my current relationship as I respected and cared TOO MUCH about my partner as a friend first that I didnt want anything too bad to come between us if he or I were just not able to be what we needed to be to make this thing work. There have been many episodes of soul searchign to get to where we are.. and I'm sure there will probably be a few more to come.

>>>>I just wonder how long anyone can go to herself, when she'd rather be going to her partner, without doing so at the expense of the relationship.

It all depends on how strong you are, how long you might be willing to wait, how much faith you have that things WILL get better... as I've said that I am not a big fan of siting around and hope that thigns will change, but if you are in a relationship with a survivior where there IS still some good, that you do get somethign out of it, where he can do some giving, AND that person is putting a hell of a lot of effort into his recovery is something you can draw some hope and strength upon for the future. At least there is some EVIDENCE that things will most likely improve. The fact that my partner is putting in serious, intensive, herculean effort for HIMSELF and his recovery gives me some hope when I dont get all the support I need in the relationship at the current time.

But indeed, I cannot deny that a lack of support or closeness that goes on too long there's no doubt that it will have an effect on the relationship. This happened with respect to the sexual part of our relationship. My partner entered into group therapy for SA survivors a year ago and our sex life hit the tank right away. He couldnt even be in the same room as me without being clad in flannel from neck to toes. It was been hard to deal with especially as we just got engaged when that started. Visions of a sexless marriage flashed before my eyes. Things are still not back to the way they were before, not because of his issues anymore but because I've now got unresolved issues about some things that have been going on (some pretty awful anger, withdrawing, fighting from both of us)... but i've now got the ball in MY court to try and resolve those for the sake of the relationship.. interesting twist to have something on my shoulders now!!

P
 
PAS
>>>I think there is a difference between fault and responsibility.
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And what followed was music to my ears, especially the part about

I HATE blame - its useless. The past is the past, its OVER.
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Because I think that paying too much attention to 'what happened' is a distraction, and a pointless one at that!
We ain't gonna change the past, and trying to do it is just an excercise in frustration.
Who do we take our frustrations our on? No prizes for answering that one....
With that frustration comes a blurring of the line between "fault and responsibility"
If we blame our abuse for EVERYTHING, then we're not accepting our full responsibility for ourselves.

Back in June 2002, still in one-to-one therapy, I wrote this in my journal.
Sorry it's a bit long, but it seemed to fit what you're saying here.
Dave

14-4-2000
If I knew Then, What I Know Now.

There are a boatload of common phrases and clichs that every smart-arse uses to tell us that they wouldnt have done something in the same manner that we did.
If I was you Id have done . what you should have done was .. Fill in your own choice of words and add all the other clichs to the list, theyre all pretty much the same.
And almost without fail they are talking with the benefit of hindsight, telling us how we should have done things differently, learnt from our mistakes and become older and wiser.
Theyre talking rubbish because they werent there. And from my point of view as a survivor of sexual abuse its completely useless. It happened and nothing can alter that fact.
Luckily I didnt have any smart-arses telling me this mis-information, I had someone who I thought knew what they were on about, me. I told myself.
A strange sense of logic told me that all I had to do was make myself believe that I could have done things differently way back then and the recollection of what happened would be easier now.
It didnt, it happened just like I remember it and trying to convince myself otherwise was fruitless. Changing the story in my memory just doesnt work. But I tried.

I know now that accepting what happened, all of it as it happened, has to be done. Any other avenue is thinking with regret.
Other than reminiscing about the good times looking back is only of real use if we are trying to learn about the future and avoid the mistakes of the past.
Someone telling you, or berating myself, by saying things like you shouldnt have done it like that did nothing except revive the memories of past mistakes and create a pattern of thought that dwells on the what ifs of some unhappy past episode.
Its such a small leap to tell myself Next time I will do things differently because I have learnt from my past mistakes. I might not know what the problem is until it arises, but if the only thing I carry forward is the knowledge of what hasnt worked in the past then the options of what might work in the future are greatly reduced.
The what ifs and if onlys are nothing more than excess baggage.

So thinking about my recovery from a history of childhood sexual abuse, and looking back solely from my new found position of survivor I have no real deep-rooted regrets. I have anger at what went on and a sense of disappointment at what I missed yes. But in the words of Frank Sinatra Regrets, Ive had a few, but then again, too few to mention Anger is ok as I can direct that and vent it off.
I have no regrets because I know that I couldnt have done anything any differently, whether it was the abuse or its results, I couldnt have done anything any other way.
Regrets are pointless and time consuming, they just slow down the real recovery and just lead to dwelling, bitterly, on the past and I cant change what happened nothing can. Its there, in my past, a fact.
I have no regrets because I had no control of events at the time. But those who did have control and the power to make it stop deserve to be consumed by regret for the rest of their days.

Over the years as I slid into increasingly more compulsive behaviour I bitterly regretted every episode until the next one came along to distract me, so I do know what regret feels like. It feels bad, a soul destroying mix of disappointment and remorse. Regret was beating myself up mentally.
But, like my compulsive behaviour, I got over that. My recovery has shown me how little control I had over my actions, if I had no control then I find it hard to have any regrets now.

The day I told my wife what had happened to me and what I wanted to do was the right day to do it
It must have been the right day, Id wanted to do it before but something told me it wasnt the right day so I waited some more. What made that day right? Ill never know, it just was.
So I dont regret all the waiting for the right moment, and there were many years of waiting, I was ready that day and that made it right.

I dont regret the past because I cant change it, what I can change however, is the future by not regretting the past.

Look in a thesaurus and regret is joined by, bitterness- lamentation- penitence and self reproach. And I dont feel the slightest bit inclined to partake in any of those things, theyre feelings for the guilty- not me.
Opposite regret is relief, which is what I do feel now. Relief is linked to, easement- solace- alleviation- comfort and deliverance. Now were talking, I feel all of those and more.
 
PAS--

Before I respond to the actual topic of your post I want you to know that I, for one, will be at your wedding in spirit. And I'm sure there are at least 14 other folks here who share my feeling.

This relationship with all its abuse issues would NOT have had a hope in hell without a friendship base to go on. Many times when both of us could NOT be good "lovers" and we were all so freaked out, we just went "ok lets take off that "lover" hat and put it aside for now and put on our "friend" hat and turn to each other in friendship as friends would do and REALLY LISTEN from the heart".
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This has been my experience as well. Also I think being good friends was a big help to both of us right after my boyfriend disclosed... it kept both of us from freaking out because we could go out and do "friend" stuff rather than "couple" stuff-- the couple stuff inevitably led to deep discussion or someone getting sad about what we'd almost lost or a fight. And one of his biggest fears was that disclosure would "change everything"... it certainly has changed our relationship in good and bad ways but it has only made our friendship stronger.


Dave

My wife is strong, and we do talk a lot and very openly. But I do know that although she never admits it she does internalize a lot of her feelings about my situation.
Early on I was oblivious, later on I tried to do the right thing, and now I'm starting to do it naturally, because I love her and want to do the right thing.
But it's taken me five years from disclosing.
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That's still a mere 3 1/2 years from when you had to be reminded to shower and wash, though, right? :p

I think it is important to keep a healthy perspective on time. You can't live a certain way for years and expect it all to vanish in a matter of months. PAS is right that it only makes sense to stay in relationships where there is reasonable strength and hope for the future, but it is the hope that makes it so damn hard sometimes.

When things have been shit for years and then all of the sudden there IS a real hope, when you actually take the step and start trusting and opening up and looking for the future, time seems to drag out... then you have a LOT of time to worry over and question the decision you made to trust, to stick around, to change. Of course this is the worst possible mindset to be in when a partner hits a rough spot and can't meet your needs anymore, this is when it's easy for even sensible, loving partners to want to push the healing process.

Dave, I think it is interesting that you characterize your wife as "strong" in this context. I spoke about some of this stuff with my boyfriend last night, and he was just stunned. He could only say that I've always seemed so strong to him, the very opposite of a victim. Even when he's considered any hurt I've experienced, he's never thought of me as a victim or as victimized.

I think this is another case of things just not happening in the same place in the survivor's healing and the partner's. Of course my boyfriend doesn't think that I can be strong and be a victim, because he is still feeling shame and weakness in himself. Because to him, the strong aren't victims. When he can feel that his own SA did not happen to him because he was weak, and that it did not make him weak, maybe this idea won't be so strange to him. I suppose this is easier for partners to get around because we are so often cast simultaneously into secondary victim status AND support-person status... in some ways our experience with our partner's abuse reinforces our sense of strength rather than diminishes it. There must be some conversations between my boyfriend and myself where he remembers me being a pillar of strength at that moment and I remember myself being a nervous wreck the next day.

SAR
 
Lloydy

Isn't it a fact, that we all have lived through this sh*t all of our lives, is it easy to forget?

The Hell it is, but I won't let it finish me, sadly we do let ourselves get trampled on, we let people walk all over us, then they get hurt, when we fight our corner, I never knew you could be like that comes out!

I am sorry about upsetting you!

I live a life of just getting along with it, I am sociable, but nobody takes advantage of my good nature, it is there for you to use and not abuse.

We sometimes don't know where "normal people are coming from" and snap through their indifference, we snap thru them not knowing.

"even though I act childish don't take advantage" embrace it, it's all I may be able to offer, take advantage and beware, they can never understand that one.

Nor can I portraying this, but it works, sometimes

ste
 
SAR

There must be some conversations between my boyfriend and myself where he remembers me being a pillar of strength at that moment and I remember myself being a nervous wreck the next day.
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This is true for me - I think.
Linda shows me strength, as indeed she does to everyone she cares about whether it's the students she helps at college or her friend who's teenage sone has thrown a tantrum and dissappeared. She seems to say the right things at the right time, and supports people in a very natural way.
After 30 years you'd think I would know if she does become the "nervous wreck the next day" - but I don't. Perhaps she does cope with all our crap in a healthy manner? I think she does.

The few times I have seen her vulnerable have been when she lost her mother, about 10 years ago before I disclosed, and her father about 18 months ago.
When she lost her mother I kept out of it, I had to because I didn't know what else to do. It was different when her dad died, but that's my reaction to the situation. Linda's reactions were 'normal' I guess, so I know that she isn't hard and uncaring - in a 'practical' kind of way. She grieves and feels as we all do.

But when I'm in bits, she's the tower of strength who understands and expresses emotions, especially mine, but who always talks sense and sees a way out of it, usually the right way as well.

Does this take it's toll? it must do. But she either hides it from me extremely well or copes with it.
I ask, I have pushed for an an answer, but I still don't know. But at least she knows that I care, and I believe she would say something if her issues with my issues became too much.

It can't be easy for you guys, that I do appreciate.
And as you point out, I have done a lot in a short time ( it ain't finished yet though :rolleyes: ) and as I said earlier I sense that there is a change taking place right now.
Perhaps she has been hiding her feelings a bit, and maybe it's her turn to expect some support from me now that I can spare some?

The early days of healing are selfish days, I have no doubts about that. I was a complete shit at times, not because I wanted to be, or even because it was the easy option. I just didn't have any spare emotion, thought for others, or any of the other intagibles that make a relationship.
Which is the hard part for you guys.

Dave
 
:
The early days of healing are selfish days, I have no doubts about that. I was a complete shit at times, not because I wanted to be, or even because it was the easy option. I just didn't have any spare emotion, thought for others, or any of the other intagibles that make a relationship.
Which is the hard part for you guys.
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I'm so glad that you post stuff like this.. it is often sometimes APPALLING to me that on occasion C has absolutely no regard or awareness of me or others, or anything outside his own issues from time to time. I used to take it SO personally.. but now I am aware that it is NOT me, not my fault, but that he's just still in that mode.

I try to find better ways of discussing his "selfishness" - instead of being angry and feelnig abandoned I at least try once in awhile to suspect that he's lost in some thought or trigger and start from that angle, rather than accusing him of not caring or not "being there".

Of course I should be able to recall back to my early days of discoving that my childhood home was abusive and alcoholic (I didnt discover that until I was 18 and out of the home) and I recall how selfish I was at that time, and how since that time (1988 was my first discovery that something was "wrong) and how its taken me until now (almost 20 years) to start to think more about others...

And I can actually start to see some tangible ways in which he is MORE thre for me now than he was.. which is always an uplifting sign. Its always hard when change happens so SLOWLY to notice.. but I am noticing that we are actually starting to be able to discuss things more and fight less. I think our buying a house and getting married was a good step for us - it forced us to get our heads out of our own butts and focus on something else, soemthing tangible, and realize that we DO have something serious to lose now if we dont BOTH keep "shaping up" with regard to our own issues!
 
SAR,

Thanks for bumping this up. I missed it the first time around. I agree with some parts and disagree with other parts. There is a lot of anger in this whole topic, and understandably so. I'm going to keep this short and just end with the point that Dave made burried in one of his posts.

We open up to those we love and trust. We don't want to see you walk away.

Dave
 
Just reading this post after reading the replies to my cries for help. And this just stood out:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:
The early days of healing are selfish days, I have no doubts about that. I was a complete shit at times, not because I wanted to be, or even because it was the easy option. I just didn't have any spare emotion, thought for others, or any of the other intagibles that make a relationship.
Which is the hard part for you guys.

-----------------------------------

My husband told me this "I have zero tolerance for anyone, including you"...That really hurt. After much reading and re-reading, I can see how I've become a secondary victim. Which is quite a surprise to me.
 
I always bring it up! :D
And this time it makes me think of PAS. Hey sister, I hope all is well with your growing family...
 
I have been aware of secondary victimization for a long time first as a partner and now more as a therapist. It was the main issue discussed last year with Mike Lew at the Healing the Healers workshop in the UK.
I don't think secondary victimization can be avoided. I think in some ways the word "victimization" is incorrect it is more about being a secondary victim.
For me, the symptoms of secondary trauma like insomnia, anger, stress...can't be avoided they are there as a human expression of empathy and love for the survivor who suffers (especially for my loved one). I have learnt that the healthier way to handle the secondary victimization is to be aware of all the emotions that are going through me and discuss them in therapy or elsewhere. It helps tremendously disminishing their impact.
When I did my internship at CPIVAS (Centre for survivors) in Quebec, I worked on the sexual abuse issues about 5 days a week, all day long and I noticed I was developping secondary traumatization symptoms that would soon lead me to a complete burn out. I have worked then on developping more awareness on recognizing the first symptoms so I would stop and take time to myself to "empty my brain". I would usually go to the movies or go shopping.
;)
I guess the most difficult task for me as a partner who is a also a survivor is to separate what is a symptom that directly comes from my own experience and what was a reflection of my love's pain and hurt. But for me, recognizing the feeling (like the powerful rage I have against V's mother) is the most healing part of my journey of dealing with secondary victimization.
Warmest regards to all
Caro
 
I find myself very hesitant to add my voice to this discussion.

Partly I suppose because I hate to think of any more victims. The world seems so full of us.

What would it be like if we were co-survivors?

Or co-thrivers? That is a term used to refer of those who take the hard things that life has dealt them, like sexual abuse, and somehow transform those experiences into growth and life.

This is a topic that has been on my mind a great deal lately. It is what seems to me to be an answer to the question of victimization and the ensuing victimhood that seems to inevitably follow in its wake.

I am struggling to find words to communicate these fragments of apparent 'answers' in a way that is honest without being brutal, straightforward yet not harmfully blunt.

Much of the thinking I have revolves around the notion of 'assuming personal responsibility'.

To me that means separating that for which I am responsible and that for which others must be responsible.

In short, it would mean that I would be the person who determines whether or not I am happy; whether or not my life is satisfactory and that it is my choices that are the deciding factor in the creation of my reality.

Having been a victim, the eternal temptation is to have another be responsible for how I am, how I feel and what I do.

Being a survivor means that I reclaim my power of choice and understand that it is what I think and do that determines my state of being.

Growing into a 'thriver' (I dislike this term, but find it used in this context and don't know what else to use), means that a person actively uses the knowledge gained as a survivor and begins to participate fully in their own life, assumes complete responsibility for the choices they make and refuse to allow others to take away or add to these resposibilities.

Of course, these are all ideas and represent passing moments in the continuum of recovery. Yet for me they also represent a goal, an overarching destination if you will, that allows me to transcend the day to day difficulties of living in the aftermath of sexual abuse, whether as a survivor, co-survivor, victim or secondary victim or just really hurt and confused, which is how I often appear.

Wow, for someone who claims to be struggling to find expression, I really have managed to spout off quite a bit here.

I hope to introduce the topic of 'assuming personal responsibility' as an antidote for the pitfalls of eternal victimhood or sempiternal secondary victimhood as a thread in the near future.

I'm afraid that the term 'personal responsibility' will piss people off even before they get a chance to read any more.

Any suggestions for alternatives?

Thanks for reading this.

Regards,
 
A couple of postscripts:

I am bringing this topic of assuming personal responsibility not merely as a theoretical fling, meant to critique or justify, but as a means of finding space outside the locus of inter-personal relationships between survivors and partners, where personal effort, will, and energy can be brought to bear in a positive manner.

In other words, working on my sense of personal responsibility is what I can do for myself as a way of gaining comfort, strength and confidence while at the same time being the very best effort in aid to the recovering survivors in my life.

Second PS, is a question. Would it be helpful to you as a survivor or co-survivor to have general guidelines given to point us in the right direction as far as developing and enjoying our assuming of personal responsibility in our own lives?

I sense a hunger for direction and guidelines in so many of our posts here on the MS DB. Not directives, but merely suggestions as to what has worked for some of us.

Yet not vague and generalized, but perhaps specific values to be considered and methods to assimilate new ways of relating to the problems, pain and suffering of others.

I have an intuitive sense that what happened in the sexual abuse in my life is that a man using sex as his weapon forced his guilt, shame, pain and associated problems upon me. He made me carry his burden. He could do this because he was older, more practiced than I.

Unconcious of this, I traversed much of life doing similarly with others, though not using sex so much as a weapon, and not with those younger than me, but nonetheless foisting my angst on others. A lot of my recovery has been about establishing boundaries for myself (I don't believe in establishing boundaries for others!) and trying one day at a time to honor them.

And finally, what would your reaction be if someone (like me, but not me) for example, characterized much of the behavior of victims and secondary victims as well as survivors and co-survivors as being self-centered and selfish?

Once again, this characterization would not be for purposes of judgement or so as to be used as a weapon against others, but as a way of viewing our adaptive behaviors so that we might find betters ways of coping with the trauma, stress, pain and uncertainty in our own lives.

It seems that the old saying is really true: That we cannot transmit what we don't have.

Anyway, enough postscripts from me. I would be very interested in all your feedback and apologize in advance if any of this is offensive to you. That is not my intent, but rather I seek ways of recovering and helping others overcome the trauma of sexual abuse in our lives and in the lives of those we love.

Thanks for your patience with me.

Regards,
 
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