Red Flag Concerns

Red Flag Concerns
S

sonlite

Registrant
Hmmm this one will be difficult to write.

Last week I posted "Happy, But Unsettled" and talked about meeting a woman who I have started a relationship w. She is a s/abuse survivor also ... our paths took different directions though, while I shut down and quit talking for years and years - and disconnected from my own sexuality, she became a 'party girl' and openly admits she has been promiscuous and oversexualized. Sounds like a great match for me to help get me out of my sexual shell and to learn to be comfortable and accepting of myself and the joys of sexuality.

But somethings have struck me which worry me and I am always wondering or worrying about what things mean.

1. She has a 7 year old son. And she reports that she and her son take showers together. This disturbs me and I talked w her about my uneasiness. My girlfriend says there is nothing sexual about when she showers w him like this. I believe that she is not doing anything overtly sexual w him. My girlfriend is kinda new-age'ie and 1960's hippie-like and seemed defensive that I would even question her practice of sharing the shower w her 7y son. And I am confused bc I don't know if that is normal behavior or not. And I can't point to any specific research or anything ... I just feel uncomfortable about it. My personal stance is that if there is even a RISK that this might be damaging psychologically to her son; why would she take such a chance? And still I have to recognize that in many other cultures this practice would not get a second thought.

2. I was out playing in the yard w her and her 7 year old son and I observed him touch her shirt and her breasts. And she didn't scold him about it. She simply moved a step back so his hands fell off her breasts but never said a word to him about this behavior and having boundaries and all. This felt wierd to me. But since I am second guessing myself all the time and since I didn't want to start such a discussion in the presence of her child, I chose not to comment on that event (for now).

3. I am feeling unsettled about my own boundaries w her regarding sexuality. See, I will be laying w her and just cuddling and telling her how this relationship is so I can have a girlfriend and not just about sex. But 5 minutes later I am sliding my hands into her panties. And well, I have to accept and own that I WANT to have sex w her, a lot - bc well ... she's so damn good at it!!! But at the same time I am torn, bc I almost feel that to be responsible and really show love to her. I need to cool my jets and spend non-sexual time w her so she can grow and learn that two people can be intimate while fully clothed. But I have sexual needs and desires which are legitmate ... and here's this amazing woman who will NEVER say "No".

Any thoughts?

sonlite
 
Sonlite their are two things that you stated that bother me already. The taking a shower with a seven year old is an issue of worrie. The breast touching is another thing to worrie about. If in my place I would probly report that to Child services. Their are two things that bothers me about this post please please think about your next actions. She might not be sexual abusing him her self but she is setting him up to be abused.


lots of love, Nathan
 
I have a 9 yo son and an 11 yo daughter. While I don't go to extreme measures to hide my body from either of them, I would certainly not think that showering with either of them would be appropriate. Incidental touching is no big deal, but grabbing for breasts or genitals is definitely something to set off alarm bells. Peace, Andrew
 
Thanks guys for your replies. I do love this woman and want to do right by her. And I have a sense of love for her innocent little boy as well. I really hope more people chime in on this one bc I want to handle this in a way which is healthy and mature. I am not so attached to this woman as to be blind to dealing w the issues - even at the risk of losing the relationship w her. Ethically, the psychological well-being of a child is most important here.

They say that God allows people to cross our paths for a reason and maybe that reason is for me to help educate this woman about her son and to self-advocate my own position.

gotta run, (w a heavy heart),
John
 
John,

I feel very badly for you. I had an experience with a woman [long story not for here, now] who had a ten year old daughter whom she slept with in their tiny 1 bedroom apartment in the basement of her parents home.

When I came into the picture the daughter hated me! There was no way that me and the daughter were ever going to be friends.

All that aside, I felt that it was wrong and while i did not feel that Marie was "grooming" her daughter for any inappropriate sexual activity, it was clearly emotional incest, and the mother was using the daughter for her own emotional support.

Only you have access to all of the information about your own situation, and it seems that your struggle lies in the battle between what your instincts are telling you [red flags] and what your own libido is demanding of you. Who would not want a "sudden" sex partner that knows juuuuust how to do it right? That 's only human, specifically, male human :D

What I have learned for me is that relationships take time, even for the easiest part, the sexual. In any sexual relationship I've been in, they usually started off hot and heavy, then once the honeymoon was over........well, I never really got past that part. But I still believe that beyond the honeymoon, comes the negotiation period, where you really being to learn how to satisfy your partner. Everybody raise their hands who are still in the negotiation period of their relationships! I rest my case. Still, it would be scary to be partnerless, right?

I know for myself the best partner for me probably would be someone who was also a survivor. But, that would mean a whole new set of challenges, because survivors have such different attitudes about sex and sexual things, running the whole spectrum from loathing to over zealous, often both at the same time.

If this were me, I would really want to rethink my involvement in such a trio. At the very least, I would have to talk about it, and if bringing it out causes friction, then so be it. I hope that cooling things down as you suggested and getting to know intimacy beyond the physical works out for you. Aside from the possible future issues of complicity by approximation, if she is in fact "grooming" him, something tells me that right now, this is not going to be an easy relationship .


Stay close, John and be well.

All the best,

Ron
 
They say that God allows people to cross our paths for a reason and maybe that reason is for me to help educate this woman about her son and to self-advocate my own position.
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John, you know that could well be. This relationship wherever it goes could be very empowering for you as a male survivor and you could also be educating an at least potential perp
(of course its hard to think of her that way) and rescuing a fellow fella before it's too late. Or it could really mess you up. But let's try to be optimistic...

She is a s/abuse survivor also ... our paths took different directions though, while I shut down and quit talking for years and years - and disconnected from my own sexuality, she became
a 'party girl' and openly admits she has been promiscuous and oversexualized.
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This sounds so much like my first wife.

Sounds like a great match for me to help get me out of my sexual shell and to learn to be comfortable and accepting of myself and the joys of sexuality.
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John, I didn't shut down or disconnect from my sexuality--quite the opposite actually. Still, I thot my first wife was just what I needed. Wrong!

Many issues come to mind not the least of which is will she really be able to do for you what you hope for sexually? Also will you be able to trust her in an intimate relationship?

Then there is this discomforting matter of her sexuality with her son and the question of whether
her sexual relations with you might be/become in some way abusive toward you physically or psychologically.

My girlfriend is kinda new-age'ie and 1960's hippie-like and seemed defensive that I would even question her practice of sharing the shower w her 7y son.
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https://www.moviewavs.com/cgi-local/tvwavs.cgi?Lost_In_Space=dangw.wav :eek:

Sorry, this one throws off all kinds of alarms with me John, particularly her defensiveness about
it. That just sounds too damned much like my mother, who is still a 60's hippy & was New
Age before people knew what it was. She showered &
bathed with me at that age as tho it were nothing unusual at all. But I knew better even then and I bet her son does too. You do too, I suspect, tho I won't speak for you...

And I am confused bc I don't know if that is normal behavior or not. And I can't point to any specific research or anything
... I just feel uncomfortable about it.
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Of course you feel uncomfortable about it. No research required. It is not normal behavior and no amount of research could convince me otherwise. That's IMNSHOFWIS (In My Not So Humble Opinion For What It's Worth).

And still I have to recognize that in many other cultures this practice would not get a second thought.
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Culture schmulture! That doesn't make it right. Hell's bells, our culture (and many others) allow abortion. Some tho thankfully few encourage incest
Besides what about your personal culture John--you are certainly giving it a second thot...

My girlfriend says there is nothing sexual
about when she showers w him like this.
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John, she might even really believe that. But that
doesn't mean it's so. As you well know, and even mention (
3. I am feeling unsettled about my own boundaries w her regarding sexuality.
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), the boundaries of SA survivors, especially their sexual boundaries, are warped at best, nonexistent at worst. Especially w/o recovery; where she's at there I don't know (but that is another item for your consideration my friend...)

I believe that she is not doing anything overtly sexual w him.
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John you may want to believe that. It may even be true. But covert SA is just as harmful as overt. For me the damage of seeing my mother naked
so much around the house was perhaps more damaging than the touching becuz it was so constant & pervasive.

John it might help you to check out the recent threads on "Why Define Sexual Abuse?" and "Defining Your Sexual Abuse".

2. I was out playing in the yard w her and her 7 year old son and I observed him touch her shirt and her breasts...
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This whole incident again throws off my alarms. Perhaps you should ask her about it if & when you are able. Taken with the showering together, this gives you IMNSHOFWIW great cause for concern.

But I have sexual needs and desires which are legitmate ... and here's this amazing woman who will NEVER say "No".
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John the reasons may be different, but you are perhaps sexually starved and as a young man so was I. So I went for someone who yes was "damn good at it" and "would never say no". But we were both survivors with screwed up boundaries to say the least and it was an awful experience.

John granted I'm speaking a lot out of my own experiences here, but also from some research & from the experiences of others. That's what I've got to share out of.

Also I'm sorry if some of this about your girlfriend is hard to hear. It was the same way when I was dating my ex. Your case may well be different, but for me it's too damned bad I didn't
listen... :(

Sorry if this upsets you John. My sharing is based
on this:
I really hope more people chime in on this one bc I want to handle this in a way which is healthy and mature. I am not so attached to this woman as to be blind to dealing w the issues - even at the risk of losing the relationship w her. Ethically, the psychological well-being of a child is most important here.
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So I hope I didn't get carried away "ringing my chimes..." :o

Take care my friend. My prayers are with you for guidance & grace...

Victor
 
Hello John,

Your girlfriend's practice of having her 7 yo son shower with her it way out of line. A rule of thumb I have always heard was: when the child can take a shower by him/herself, it is inappropriate for them to shower with a parent. Now, I work out at a YMCA. They have "family lockers" in which parents with small children shower together. I suspect that in the boys section it is a gang shower. But I notice that Dad usually sends his son to the kids locker room at around this age. Some Dads do though shower in the family room and I suspect that is a matter of being sure his son is safe there. On Friday nights only, male boys do shower in the adult male shower room but there is always a YMCA man in the locker room making sure the boys are safe. There is also always YMCA personnel in the lobby immediately outside the locker rooms.

I guess what they are saying is that a boy can shower with his Dad as long as that might be necessary. But, as I said, usually the boys go to the kid's shower and Dad comes to the adult shower room. I don't watch this because I am usually in a hurry myself, BUT I do not think I have ever seen a little girl in our shower nor seen a Mom take her little son to the women's shower. Couldn't bet on it, but I just do not think it happens. I believe that those kids showers are very safe for a kid regardless of the age.

In some cultures all people, young and old, run around totally naked. But this is our culture and the only place that is done is in nudist camps.

Your gf was sexualized inappropriately and she is acting that out--reactive sexuality--like Ken Singer speaks of, about us messing around with boys the age we were when we were abused.

It sounds like this little boy is already acting out his being inappropriately esxualized by his mother.

Probably, one of our therapists here will weigh in on this thread. If not, you might call the nearest Children's Hospital and ask to speak to someone there about this question. If you are near a Medical School you could check with their dept of psychiatry.

HOWEVER, it sounds like your gf is about as open to being shown that she is out of line as a drunk is to someone telling him he has a drinking problem. If she refuses to hear, then I agree with Nathan, that you probably need to report what you have seen. Touching her breats etc. The part about the showers is just hear-say evidence on your part--but you can still mention it. All of this can be done anonymously.

Sorry to be so blunt, but you seem to care enough about the child's safety to make the tough decision.

Bob
 
John
Any day now that young boy is going to get sexual thoughts and urges, if he isn't already. And the chances are he'll be confused and possibly embarrased about the changes in himself.
The last thing he needs is to be showering with a grown woman.

Sorry, but I would have serious doubts about her. Openness is one thing, but her behaviour crosses too many boundaries I think.

Dave
 
Hmmm, so I just got off the phone w my girlfriend and she was inviting me to accompany her on an overnight trip w her while she attends a conference. I accepted the invitation figuring that we would have a good bit of 1:1 time together to talk while driving and staying together. I asked if she were taking a laptop w her for the trip bc the thought occurred to me to let her read some of the responses from this thread and for her to read the "Defining Sexual Abuse" thread as Wumaei suggested. But I don't want to mess w anyone's boundaries here at malesurvivor, either (comments?).

I am growing more confident in my resolve bc I am reminding myself that although I do love this woman, I also have love for her son as well. And that I will trust that I will handle this discussion in the most loving way possible. This does not have to mean the end of things between she and I if she is receptive and understanding of her son's vulerability. And if she decides to let the issue absorb and be accepted w/in her. If she becomes defensive and stubborn about seeing the boundary problems and if I have to lose her over this and still make a case about my concerns then I am prepared for that loss. Bc I would have done the best thing in defense of a child. And that is a stronger display of love than anyone else could ever show her, or her son.

Thanks again for everyone's support on this.
John
 
It sounds like this little boy is already acting out his being inappropriately esxualized by his mother.
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Any day now that young boy is going to get sexual thoughts and urges, if he isn't already. And the chances are he'll be confused and possibly embarrased about the changes in himself.
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I was by that age. :( Doubt if I'm the only one here either. :(

I asked if she were taking a laptop w her for the trip bc the thought occurred to me to let her read some of the responses from this thread and for her to read the "Defining Sexual Abuse" thread as Wumaei suggested. But I don't want to mess w anyone's boundaries here at malesurvivor, either (comments?).
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John this is a public forum. If you think it might
help it would be worth it.

This does not have to mean the end of things between she and I if she is receptive and understanding of her son's vulerability. And if she decides to let the issue absorb and be accepted w/in her.
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That's true. She is a survivor who obviously has very messed up boundaries and may not even really know it or feel it in a way that she can deal appropriately with her. If she responds openly and is willing to alter her actions with her son great. If not as you said the best thing to do in defense of the boy is the best expression of love to the boy and to her.

Take care John

Vic
 
sonlite,
there is simple no question that what your girlfriend is doing is wronge. Period.

She should not be showering with her son at age 7. How would she respond to the question..."When is he going to be old enough to bathe himself?"
"Why cant he bathe himself now?"
and the breast incident....these show that she has unclear boundry issues that are still unresolved from her own sex abuse. They need to be resolved in a theraputic setting.

I am sorry u r in this situation, but u MUST act on behalf of the child, and his mother. If she is in denile and wont adress this, then you MUST report her. That is a very difficult this to do, sonlite. Yes, it is... I know it could bring unwant attention and or break up your relationship with her , but u know what needs to be done. I think you knew it when u posted. its just so F***ed up that you have to be the one exposed to it and stuck with the responsibility of taking action.
 
Well here's how things happened.

I went w my girlfriend on her business trip and we talked ALOT. I touched on the subject of her boundaries w her son. But said that I was waiting until I had more information before I was going to engage in any debate w her on the matter.

Last night I went over her house and cooked her dinner. And I brought w me, a print-out of the replies from this thread and replies to the same post which I posted in a site for women survivors just so I could get a balance of male and female opinions. I was SOOOO nervous and not wanting a conflict, but was determined that I would stick to what is ethically correct for her son.

I never had to argue a single point. You guys are amazing. I had also printed out the "Defining Sexual Abuse" thread for her and by the time she was done even 1/3 of the reading, she was crying and saying how she never meant to hurt or manipulate her son and that she would make an immediate change and stop showering w him.

I think the changes will stick too, bc later that night we talked and talked and talked about her own s/abuse hx and how it had affected her life and her boundaries. She said she did not want to repeat unhealthy patterns. She actually "Thanked" me for having the courage and the love for her and her son by bringing up the matter. She agreed that perhaps this was part of the reason why I was brought into her life. To help her w boundaries.

So, (whew) I feel better.

I want to say a sincere thank you to everyone who contributed on this thread bc I got to see first hand how your words made an impact and helped a child.

God Bless, John
 
John,

She was right to thank you. Your courage and love are tremendous.

Thanks,

Joe
 
John,

I am so excited & happy for you! This is probably the best outcome you could have expected!

Your girlfriend changing her ways which is protecting her son and herself from a lot of pain & grief later. She seems to be doing so sincerely & out of a real understanding that it was abuse & what it could have done.

In the process, she is facing her own abuse, seeing how it affects her life & her relationships
especially with her son, and dealing with it in a positive way.

Along with this, you are not only remaining in relationship with her but it is becoming a much more open, intimate, communicative & helpful relationship for both of you--and the boy.

It's also gratifying for us here to know that the things we wrote were of benefit to you, to her, and to the boy.

Wow thanks John what an encouraging post! :)

Victor
 
This really is the best of news. I sure hope that she gets good help to face her own sa and feel good and at peace about herself. She is a victim and she was traumatized, so there is no way she won't experience the effects of it alll. But now, she has you to stick by her in all of this. And she has a wonderful little boy that can lots of joy to both of you.

Peace to you, all three!

Bob
 
John
that's a great result, couldn't be better.

And where did you get all that strength from I wonder ?

Dave ;)
 
John,


wtg on handling this situation. I just read thead through for the first time and Its great that you turned this situatuion into a healing moment for everybody.

10 points for the light side of the Force.

Kudos for everyone else who contributed to the thread. The love and caring in this forum are actually having a tangible effect ont he universe.

I believe the technical formula is:

(love+caring)*compassionate action=better world.

--Ken
 
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