re: virginity

re: virginity
K

Ken Singer LCSW

I'm working with a young man (16) who was sexually assaulted when he was 12. He told me tonight that while he chooses not to have sexual intercourse with his female friends because he wants to remain a virgin for a while longer, he has considered himself not to be a virgin because of the anal penetration he experienced when he was assaulted.

I talked to him about choice (what he is doing now in terms of sexual intercourse with age mates) versus the forced, involuntary abuse he suffered four years ago. Part of him accepts this and part does not. I asked him if it would be ok to post this dilemma on the discussion forum and he said it would be. I will print out any responses and give them to him when I see him next in two weeks.

Thanks for your input.
Ken
 
Well, I sure would not consider what happened to me, anal sex as anything other than violent abuse, and as a man it sure did not take away virginity.

Lots of people speak to teens today and tell them that secondary virginity is good too. In other words, for kids who have had sex and now want to wait for marriage or committment they can consider themselves virgins of a secondary kind. Makes sense to me.

But if the only sex a person has has been betrayal and violence, that is not sex. Sex is a beautiful gift that expresses great love and draws people together. Violence is violence, it harms, is an expression of ppower gone mad and it sure does not draw people together.

Congratulations to the young Lad--an inspiration.

Bob
 
Ken, there is absolutely, unequivocably no question that the young man in question IS A VIRGIN, in every sense of the word. To have sex or make love requires informed consent. A twelve year old cannot give that consent. To have been assaulted has nothing to do with making love, quite the opposite. He is obviously a clever and wise young man to have made the decision to abstain from sexual relationships until he is older. Good for him. Peace, Andrew
 
Ken in my work with young people & families, even currently, I've had occasion to talk with people about this very thing.

I quite agree with Bob & Andrew. I've never used that term, but the concept of secondary virginity is something I believe in & have shared with others in counseling & teaching.

The more I think about it, the very idea that sexual intercourse alone (even for a woman, for that matter) takes away virginity is a mockery of the sexual experience. Sexual intimacy (read that "in-to-me-see") is not merely a physical act but also an emotional, psychological, spiritual experience. It cannot be reduced to mere physical intercourse.

Especially when that intercourse is forced, which in fact defies the definition of the word intercourse.

I would consider a raped woman who had been a virgin to still be one. A man would be no different.

IMNSHO your young friend has every right & reason to consider himself a virgin. And he is wise to choose to remain a virgin, especially as he is working thru this.

Had I done so I would have saved myself and my family of creation a great deal of pain.

Victor
 
I believe virginity is in the mind , not the body.

And if the abuse was forced - as it can only be on a child - then the boys mental virginity is intact.
Although he will have terrible doubts if he responded as most of us did and became aroused or even took part in the abuse.
But that is a natural and unstopable bodily reaction, not an act of joining in.

On a slightly different note I knew a girl many, many years ago who was very highly sexed and very religious. And determined to walk the Isle a virgin.
But she would give oral sex and have anal sex with abandon, but nothing entered her vagina at all.
And she was totally cool with this 'idea' of virginity, it suited her needs.
I guess it was ok in her mind as well, she had just adjusted societies norms on virginity to suit her needs.

It's a frame of mind.

Dave
 
I used to consider myself a virgin and actually took a certain amount of pride in the fact that i did not rush out and have sex with anybody, because i questioned my sexuality and i so fear intimacy with anybody....i'm so afraid memories/feelings will consume me and i'll have to destroy/kill my partner and myself after sex...my dreams have confirmed and reinforced those fears...i guess what i consider myself at this point is a freak of nature..........

but, i'm 45....i have wasted my life in fear....tell your client not to use virginity as a crutch for not facing his problems...but tell him to take all the time he needs to have sex....when it is truly right and comfortable for him i guess it will happen....he has taken such a brave and strong step by talking to you about his problems/feelings.....i only wish i would have had that courage at his age.....i envy his strength so much......michael
 
Ken,

I agree with the other comments on this page. To me virginity cannot be stolen but must be given up willingly. While this may not be easy with graphic pictures of abuse in one's mind or dreams, I believe it is an action of the free will and cannot be forcefully taken away.

I had not heard of the concept of secondary virginity, but I like that concept as well. Kind of leaves room for mistakes that one makes.

Hdan
 
MichaelB,

I understand the feeling of having wasted your life in fear. I feel like I have wasted my emotional life or that it has been stolen from me. But I am told and will someday understand that it is better to start living without fear or with a healthy emotional life even at the age of 45 or 35 (for me) than never to experience a free life.

Hdan
 
Ken,
I was raped at age 5 and then several times after that. It has taken me a long time to begin to work through all of these things and fully embrace what has happened to me.

For a long time I thought that my innocence, my very innermost part of my body, my virginity and my soul had been taken away from me. At the time, I could not be convinced differently because I felt as if I had been robbed.

As time went and I began to heal by taking back the power of what happened to me, I started to realize that they never actually got to take that away from me. It was still mine and it was not something I was capable of giving away at that point in my life. I was too young to even know what that was about. I know now that it is something I kept with me through out my life and it is only something that I gave away when I chose to. I see it as something sacred and more than just a physical act or a physical thing.

He doesn't have to rush through all of this. In time, he will be able to sort it all out, but it does take time. It takes patience as well and acceptance of one's self. By learning that the abuse was not his fault and it is not what was done to him, rather it was what was done TO him, he will be able to heal through these issues as well.

Don
 
Dear young man,
I am the wife of a survivor and a survivor myself. My own hubby2 considered himself to be a virgin until he had consensual sex with another. For my own self I was incested and molested almost daily from the time I was about 9 until even after I was married the first time. My years of being molested / incested there wasnt what would be considered "penetration" until I was 18 - at that time my main abuser told me "your old enough now". He raped me with pentration that time. I still considered myself a virgin because I did not agree nor want that contact.
Thinking over the years of sexual behavior, and I have been married now to my 2nd hubby 15 yrs -- only recently through our working on our abuse issues have I thought about this -- truly both of us were in fact still virgins until we both had sexual contact that has been "equal and consensual loving contact".
Yes, technically we were not virgins we have children together -- but it is a matter of mind set. In my opinion only --
You can choose, I hope you understand that YOU are the most important in your decision in how you feel about YOU.
Best of Luck to you -- you're valuable and have great potential. Keep up your good work!
May Peace fill you ~ Wifey1
 
Dear young man...

I was 11 when I had my first sexual experience with someone. It was coerced and I was manipulated into doing it. It went on for a few years and yes, sometimes it was pleasurable but it was never consensual. I thought that I was defective because of what happened to me and my bodys reaction to it, that I was somehow unworthy of anyones love and affection. That was not true. It was a lie that my perpetrator instilled in me.

Virginity is something that is a state of mind, it can never be taken but it can be willingly shared by two people in love. My wife and I were both virgins when we first made love. It was special, it was a unique experience, it was loving and compassionate.

You still have your virginity young man in every sense of the word. You never surrendered it and it was never taken from you. When you are ready to share it with someone you love you will know. Take all the time you need and be at peace with yourself.

Steve
 
Here are two definitions I found of virgin:

Joan Helmich, of the Center for Health Training in Seattle, says there is "no hard and fast rule for what constitutes a virgin. Virginity is a cultural concept. People have very different definitions. "Virginity is merely an idea,'' she says. "There is no physical change that occurs, otherwise we would be able tell when it is lost and we would have our definition. Because it is only a concept, it is completely individual."

And another:

Innocence; unsullied; an unmarried person; sexual morals/attitudes; wholeness; navet, especially sexually;

What struck me is that the first says virgin is in your head- a cultural concept. If thats so, then what is it? The second definition adds concepts of Innocence & unsullied- but also includes wholeness & naivet

Those are very different ideas and my experience having been abused as a young child, was that I had lost my innocence and I felt dirty, sullied. But I also felt like I was somehow not whole and was not nave about sex.
So for me, I came into adolescence without getting to experience sexual development as an innocent, it was dirty-tainted and made me feel guilty. My skin crawled with shame.

No, I did not feel like a virgin because I had not come to terms with my guilt, my loss of innocence, my feeling of shame, my lack of naivety to approach the discovery of sex and relationships with a fresh innocent mind.

I did not feel like a virgin because I did not feel like I had any virginity to lose - not because I had been sexually abused, but because it took away my innocence.

Without trust-innocence-sexual naivety, I lacked the opportunity to experience someone I really cared about and that I was ready to care about.

I learned that to experience/love another person sexually in a relationship, I needed to trust my mate which meant letting my whole self be there not holding back the hidden-fearful-untrusting parts- I carried a legacy of abuse and it kept me from experiencing sex as a virgin.

I did not begin my recovery until later in life. Now that I have started healing, I have learned that there is a small virgin child inside me waiting to grow up. I can nurture and protect his sexual innocence and help him grow into a whole sexual being.

For you, at your age, you have a chance to reclaim your virginity by the work you do to recover.

You may not feel like a virgin now but you can reclaim it by healing the effects of the awful trauma that happened to you.

You are wise to save your virginity until you can feel like a virgin again. Its worth the wait.
 
I say you are a virgin, but why concentrate on that exact word. Why not examine what it really means to be a virgin. Here are some other words to ponder:

virtue

Main Entry: virtue
Pronunciation: 'v&r-(")ch
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English virtu, from Old French, from Latin virtut-, virtus strength, manliness, virtue, from vir man -- more at VIRILE
Date: 13th century
1 a : conformity to a standard of right : MORALITY b : a particular moral excellence
2 plural : an order of angels -- see CELESTIAL HIERARCHY
3 : a beneficial quality or power of a thing
4 : manly strength or courage : VALOR
5 : a commendable quality or trait : MERIT
6 : a capacity to act : POTENCY
7 : chastity
- virtueless /-(")ch-l&s/ adjective
- by virtue of or in virtue of : through the force of : by authority of

2003 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated

chaste

Main Entry: chaste
Pronunciation: 'chAst
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): chaster; chastest
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin castus pure
Date: 13th century
1 : innocent of unlawful sexual intercourse
2 : CELIBATE
3 : pure in thought and act : MODEST
4 a : severely simple in design or execution : AUSTERE b : CLEAN, SPOTLESS
- chastely adverb
- chasteness 'chAs(t)-n&s/ noun
synonyms CHASTE , PURE, MODEST, DECENT mean free from all taint of what is lewd or salacious. CHASTE primarily implies a refraining from acts or even thoughts or desires that are not virginal or not sanctioned by marriage vows . PURE differs from CHASTE in implying innocence and absence of temptation rather than control of one's impulses and actions .

2003 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated

fornication

Main Entry: fornication
Pronunciation: "for-n&-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
:consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other -- compare ADULTERY

2003 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated


adultery

Main Entry: adultery
Pronunciation: &-'d&l-t(&-)rE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -teries
Etymology: Middle English, alteration of avoutrie, from Middle French, from Latin adulterium, from adulter adulterer, back-formation from adulterare
Date: 15th century
:voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband; also : an act of adultery

2003 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated

All any man has within him is the ability to resist fornication and adultery and embrace virtue and chastity.
 
I've always liked this song by Robbie Williams, and the chorus says it all........

KARMA KILLER.

You've been naughty
Very very naughty

Are you cut up
Or do you easily forget
Are you still around
Why haven't you managed to die yet
You could prop up the bar in hell

CHORUS
How do you sleep
You've never loved
Why was I never good enough
You thought you'd leave me falling forever
Karma killer

Needless to say
I guess you know I hate you
You're so full of sin
Even the devil rates you
I hope you choke
On your Bacardi and Coke

How do you breathe
Why don't you cry
How come you never asked me why
You're not a man stand and deliver
Karma killer

REPEAT CHORUS
Karma killer
Karma killer
Karma killer

Oh, na na na...
REPEAT

I hope you choke
On your Bacardi and Coke

Look what you didn't take from me
Look what you didn't take from me
Look what you didn't take from me
Look what you didn't take from me

No no no no no no....
REPEAT

I don't need to take revenge
Cos they're coming to get you
There's no hope for you my friend
Cos they're coming to get you

Karma killer
Karma killer
Karma killer
Karma killer
Karma killer
Karma killer

*********************

"LOOK WHAT YOU DIDN'T TAKE FROM ME"

One of the best sing-along chorus's ever !! I just scream it as loud as I can when I have the cd on in the car :D

They tried to take it all from us, but to hell with them, I'm having it all back.

Dave
 
another two cents -

one thought i've had on this is that if the young man hasn't had sex with a female yet, then in a very true sense he is a virgin in terms of heterosexual relations.

i agree with a lot of what Thad posted, especially the first 90% of his post. i disagree however with his and all the posts saying that virginity is a state of mind. to my concrete, black and white way of thinking, once it's gone, it's gone.

how can one possiblity regain the lost innocence?

i do think that one can regain a sense of wonderment, freedom and excitement in a close, caring relationship. when both people agree and want to explore having sex together, to be free to be playful and feel sexy, to be able to explore each other, to be intimate and loving and trusting, and most of all to not have any unwanted abuse thoughts intrude, perhaps all this can be regained.

this is why the young man may be on the right track as far as holding off having sex with a girlfriend. for him to wait until he's at a point where it's not an unpleasant or emotionally painful experience is well worth the wait and recovery work.

to hear about such a young man coming to terms with his abuse now is wonderful. for him to do the recovery work now, as much as he can, will make the rest of his life so much easier and productive and fulfilling! i want to acknowlege his willingness and courage to talk about his abuse and welcome him (sadly) to the botherhood of survivors. there is much strength to be found when you know you're not alone and you're not a freak.

my thanks to the young man and Ken for giving me this opportunity to share my viewpoint. this is what's all about, besides my own recovery - prevention of abuse in the first place and reaching out to those coming to terms with their trauma.

jer
 
I did not begin my recovery until later in life. Now that I have started healing, I have learned that there is . I can nurture and protect his sexual innocence and help him grow into a whole sexual being.
Click to expand...
Thad, I gotta say you're concept of "a small virgin child inside me waiting to grow up" is quite awesome & overwhelming & brings tears to my eyes. Little Victor & Big Victor are thrilled about this thot & the possibilities that lie ahead for me--and for my wife.

Thanks a lot, my friend.

Victor
 
Jer

i disagree however with his and all the posts saying that virginity is a state of mind. to my concrete, black and white way of thinking, once it's gone, it's gone.

how can one possiblity regain the lost innocence?
Click to expand...
The lost innocence has gone forever, you're absolutely right about that, and it's never coming back.
But as we move into becoming survivors we learn so much new thinking that we become different people. Out attitudes and expectations change, and to me that's why I believe it's a mind thing.

The 'new mind set' is so different to the old that we hopefully treat sexual relationships as a loving part of a spiritual partnership. And the first experience of sex in this kind of setting would I think be like losing your virginity.

But I have to admit it's a very grey concept. ;)

Dave
 
Hay dude.

I know this must be confusing for you. So many people with so many different veiws and ideas. Hell even I get confused half the time reading these posts my self. End of the day it is you that has the power to guild your throughts, your feelings on any matter. An oppion is never wrong no matter how wrong someone might think it is. But its for you to diceed, We are only here to guild each other and make sure we dont suffer alone.

As for Relationships, I'v had quite a few girlfriends, but they never lasted more then a cupple of months. I'v never let them come to close, ok we would have sex and sleep together. But I was a cold shoulder I guess, and then things would go wrong, and it would end. Where I am in my life I cant ever see my self married. I may settle down we will have to see. But my advice to you would be:

Take your time. There is not speed rescitions. When your ready you will know. If you feel your ready then go for it - As long as they are ready to. And afterwards, you can slow things down again, or contiune, Its up to you. Go at your own pace and what happens happens.

Verginity it self is a fake. Its just a word, that some people take offence to, that some people think is powerfull, and some think its old.

DONT LET THIS ISSUE EFFECT YOU. You are firstly a teenage like my self that needs to be able to express them selves, and that even means sexualy. We cant stop our selves getting old, we cant stop our passed playing apart in our furture, AND We cant stop nature taking its cause, so just let it run.

Mate, Live your life the fullest you can, Enjoy everymoment you can, cause life is a bitch that will slap you in the face whenever it can. And most imporantly NEVER EVER STOP HAVING FUN.

Catch ya on the fip side dude!
 
Ken.

I hope I'm not to late in repling to your post. I also despertely hope that mine and the other posts help your young client fulfill a healthy sex life.

Firstly I see making love not sex as the process to which you loose ones vaginity. When you are abused it may be about power, it may be having sex, but it most certainly isn't making love. That involves two caring people undertaking an intimate act whether it be oral, anal or vaginal sex. The act should be wonderfull, fun and ectasy for both.

I was so frigtened of sex after my abuse but when I found someone I trusted enough to make love with those fears vanished. She was aware of my abuse, she was tender, understanding and let me dictate what happened and when. I know it sounds odd. I had an active sex life before my abuse, but she was the first after and the first in 13 years. That day I felt I lost my vaginity.


Little_E.

Your right it is soooooo confusing but when you can see the wood through the trees, when it fits your needs it's enlightening and sooooo powerfull.

I wish your client all the best. He will have to find what suits his needs and I hope these posts go some way to achieving that.

Mark ;)
 
I just wanted to thank you all for posting your replies for the young man I mentioned. I gave him a print out of the posts last Monday and he said he would read them after our session. I'll see him in another week and if there is any reaction worth reporting, I'll do so in this post. I think it was moving for him to get 11 pages of print out responses to the original posting.

Thanks again for your thoughts and supportive comments.
Ken
 
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