projection

projection
W

wantstohelp

Registrant
Hello,
I just had a question for you all. Have you ever had any experiences with the survivor you know projecting? My ex seems to go through periods when he's upset, especially when he hasn't seen me in a while, where he becomes really paranoid adn starts accusing me of things. I know this is because his abuse started at a very young age, and therefore he never learned how to trust, but it's really disorienting when it's targeted at you. So I was just wondering, have many of you ever experienced/done this? and if so.. what is the best way to gently deal with it? My experiences so far have been that hard evidence to the contrary mixed with humor works best to relax him.. but since he's on a big tangent where he won't talk to me right now, that's not really an option.
I guess I'd just like to know that someone else out there has dealt with this too.
thanks!
J xo
 
wantstohelp,

I think you hit on the key issue when you refer to trust. Our childhood taught us that trust is a bad idea and that all the world is a possible source of harm. That feeling can hang with us for a long time if we don't get help in dealing with it.

What works best with me is exactly what you describe:

My experiences so far have been that hard evidence to the contrary mixed with humor works best to relax him
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My wife is a master at this! The trick is that the survivor has to be prepared to listen.

If your guy won't listen then you would have every right to point out that this is entirely unfair. A relationship requires hard work from both sides. Okay, he has been badly hurt as a child, but that doesn't mean that he can act as he pleases ALL the time.

One thing survivors need to hear from their partners is that you expect us to make an honest effort in the relationship.

Much love,
Larry
 
Larry said:

One thing survivors need to hear from their partners is that you expect us to make an honest effort in the relationship.
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But another thing is that they need to SEE it.

You can say "I expect you to do X,Y,Z," until you're blue in the face. In the end, it's what you do that communicates your expectations.

I don't think I would be able to focus on getting someone else to relax etc. while they were acting paranoid and accusing me of things I had not done. In that case, I would probably remove myself from the situation. Once the person had calmed down on his own, there would be time for evidence or humor or whatever else.

SAR
 
SAR,

But another thing is that they need to SEE it.
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The dynamics of this fascinate me. I have really been trying to make more of an effort in so many directions, and I know that my wife needs to see this. What's really interesting is that I want her to see it as well, and I eagerly await any signs that she sees it. When that doesn't happen I feel frustrated somehow.

Much love,
Larry
 
If I'm being an a*****le to my wife then I wan't to know about it, and she does let me know at last.
For many years she put up with my bad behaviours, but since I started to make the effort to get better, and she's also involved with that, she understands that some of my behaviours are driven by 'dark forces' that I can't always control.

But now she brings me back to reality by telling me that I'm outta line and then works WITH me to ground myself and see where the behaviour is coming from.

It's all about trust I suppose, and much discussion of 'the way I work'
She's never forcefull about it, and often she does inject humour into what she says, but she's always firm and positive.

Slowly I'm learning to recognise the bad stuff and stop it in its tracks.

Dave
 
From Dave's post:

Slowly I'm learning to recognise the bad stuff and stop it in its tracks.
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For me the key word there is "slowly".

I'd like to give an example from just this evening. We decided to have a simple dinner: nice big baked potatoes and a Lebanese green bean, tomato and garlic dish that we all love. A nice healthy meal, right?

Sure, until I got into the act. I was anxious about my appointment with my T tomorrow, and I compensated for that by setting out all kinds of junk to go with the meal: a big slab of butter, sour cream, cheese, and so on, whereas what my wife had in mind was a nice healthy tuna topping for the potatoes. She commented, and immediately I reacted, felt cornered and devalidated, and was ready to argue about "her attitude" towards me. But before I could really get rolling she stopped me and said: "Excuse me, before we do this could you just tell me, are you 15 again and running laps or is this (pointing to the stuff I had brought out) your version of 'Death Wish'."

She was firm but smiling and I don't know, I was just disarmed. She's great.

Dammit! ;)

Much love,
Larry
 
My b/f projects on me, and everyone else constantly. He tends to expect the worst in people and trying to convince him that evil doesn't exist around every corner and in every heart is very difficult.

I joke with him as well to show him how ridiculous he acts at times, but when it's directed at me, even in a joking manner, I call him on it and say the words, "Don't project what you believe on me, I don't think like that, act like that or believe that." The words are harsh and even if I don't say them harshly, he stops. Sometimes I feel badly, sometimes not. I'm not bad. I don't lie or cheat, and I've never deliberatly hurt anyone. I'm very OK with the way I've lived and continue to live my life so I refuse to be grouped into his perception of bad people.

The hard thing is that he never, ever says things to me in a mean spirited manner, but he constantly says them. It gets old and what used to roll off my back no longer does.

ROCK ON.........Trish
 
Awww.. thank you you guys, this really helps. I need to work on the being firm, I think. I grew up in a really left wing type house with no rules and where my parents always asked my how I felt and why I did things when I made mistakes, and that approach has not been working with him because he just gets mad at me for asking and 'putting him on the spot' when I'm really trying to be understanding and not get mad. So I will try to be firmer, let myself be a little more angry, and set some boundaries for myself. I'm glad to hear that the humor is a good route, though! At least that means that one of the things I'm trying is working! I guess I'm still just in the initial phases of figuring out what works adn what doesn't, so thank you for all of your advice and for sharing,
J xo
 
Ah, Larry, wrong "they."

I meant, the survivor needs to hear and see that his partner has certain expectations of his behavior-- not that the partner needs to see the survivor behaving a certain way. I mean, I do need to see that, but that's another post.

If I just tell my boyfriend "I expect you to judge me based on my actions, not those of others, and I don't like being accused of things I haven't done," but then I allow that behavior in him to continue without setting up boundaries, then I am really saying, "I don't like it when you do these things, but I don't expect that you will stop." It's actually pretty destructive-- I'm basically communicating that I think he's limited in what he can/will do, by continuing to allow behavior that we both know is hurtful and disappointing.

Like Trish and Dave are saying, I need to take action at the time that clearly communicates my expectations. This is about expecting more from him, but also from myself.

J-- You expect to get paid at your job, don't you? How long would you stay at a job if your paycheck never came one week?

SAR
 
SAR,

Thanks for that. Yes, I misread you, and in fact I thought you had misread me! Oh well. :)

In any case, I agree with you. It's not enough if the partner states expectations and then doesn't follow through and expect specific results.

Much love,
Larry
 
How much of 'our' behaviour could be put down to the lack of discipline that surrounded the abuse?
And consequently the NEED for some discipline now we're adults?

I know that I grew up in a very disciplined environment, both at home and at boarding school. In the late 50's to late 60's kids were subjected to a greater level of discipline than they seem to be today.
But for me at least the abuse seems to have broken that, the discipline at home was always fair and never imposed through being beaten or unduly punished, at school things were different though and canings and harsh punishments were the norm. But discipline was maintained, and when I look on the schools old boys web site people who I knew back then praise that discipline, so maybe it wasn't that harsh in the circumstances.

When I arrived at the school I also accepted the many rules and behaved accordingly, but by the end of the first year I was out of control and constantly in trouble, and the fact is I didn't seem to care either. But looking back, in my last year when my abusers had all left I settled down again and accepted the discipline of the school.

Project this forward to my adulthood and I can see a similar pattern.
Given the freedoms and responsibilities that adulthood brings I once again rebelled, because there was nobody there to impose discipline.
I railed against authority at work all the time and was lucky to keep jobs, promotions were something that were never on offer. And to a certain degree I was the same with my wife in the earlier years of our marriage because we both lived a life where I had a great deal of independance. I wasn't out with the lads, I was never that way inclined, but our circumstances did lead to me being on a very long lead :rolleyes:

Looking at everything now I can see that I respond better when I have some discipline in my life, wherever it comes from, and I don't resent it either because it brings a kind of consistency to my life that I both want and need. I remember all to painfully how I behaved without discipline, and if I can't fully impose it upon myself then I'm absolutely in favour of someone else doing it - as long as it's done for the right reasons.
As much as my wife will no longer put up with my crap, I wont put up with other peoples ( including hers ) if discipline is being 'imposed' on me for someone elses benefit.

Dave
 
I think the projection is what ruins many relationships- if the survivor can not "see" who you are, and who they "see" is their abuser and treat us accordingly- that is invalidating who WE are.

It can also be VERY scary because I have NO idea who is comeing around the corner next or what will trigger which reaction. TV has "triggered" abandonment and the behavior was furniture flying.

Humor as a method has triggered feelings of invalidation and subsequent rages tht last several hours and include more invalidation and ending in emotional blackmail- "you purposely are trying to hurt me by wanting to use the washing machine! How could you NOT love me? If you loved me you wouldn't ned to see your friends anymore"

Responding with reason "can you please tell me what is so upsetting to you about the TV that you had to throw furnture? I would like to understand" is met with "YOU are not going to control me like my father did- everyone is always trying to control me and you are not going to get away with it!!!!!"

It is terrifying when a perfectly "normal" mood is all of a sudden a swirling tornedo of rage and I have no idea why or WHO he is REALLY mad at in that moment- and since I have no way of knowing all the "triggers- I have to sit in silence for fear of his explosions. He is in another world when he gets like this and it has nothing to do with me.

And that is the point, because it has nothing to do with me and it is all INSIDE of him it will never stop until HE stops it. He has no real idea who I am, he is so consumed by rage that we actually do not know each other very well- he's hiding himself and he sees ME as an extension of his abusers...what does he really need me for?

Projection is the ball of wax with survivors- when they stop projecting onto us it's a whole different possibility- until then they will never "see" us, know us, trust us, understand us, or really "live" with us.
 
I forgot a big point which is that the projection becomes almost delusional. And when that happens, how DO we "bring them back"? leaving the room does not work either because then it is abandonment. The really scary thing is that it does not seem to get better over time unless there is a realization that this is happening- my survivor interprets everything I do through the lens of abuse and demonizes me and attributes motive to me I never thought of having. I can not convince him otherwise and i can not defend a negative either.

What HE fails to see is that when he does begin to "projection rage", since I have seen how it escalates into flying furniture (and his sister hitting-she was abused too), he does not recognize that I see the connection - unpredictable rage+ projection= escalation of violence. Who KNOWS what he will remember or WHO he will project onto me that he might want to Kill someday...he may never consciously want to hurt ME, but it is physical intimidation no matter how it is sliced...his emotional world controls his ability to "see" what is infront of him...how can he be "brought back" from that...he has to develop the coping skills...BUT HOW?????????? It is VERY chicken and agg at this point!
 
My rages were never at that level, thankfully, but I do understand the triggers that upset me a bit more now than I once did.

And most of my triggers were, with hindsight, completely irrational.
Often it was a combination of small triggers that set me off, something like being asked to go shopping when I'd rather be working on my 4x4 ( control trigger ). That wasn't enough on it's own, but during the shopping trip maybe someone would cut me up while driving ( feeling powerless trigger ) My wife would want to go into shoe shops, I'd go to book and record shops, and we'd arrange to meet somewhere at a certain time, if she was late then I'd be triggered again, ( taken advantage of trigger ) and so on.

I didn't realise that this was happening in the way it did at the time, but these accumulating triggers eventually led me to behave in such a way that I sought 'revenge' for all these perceived injustices.
My weapon wasn't rage or violence though, I would engineer a situation to cause a row, and do it with the certainty that I could lay the blame on my wife and cause her to become upset. Emotional violence I suppose.

Dave
 
lloydy,

That is a really good point- for you there were several triggers...so there was a build up-- the first, the second, the third, and by the time the fourth came along (and I hear this from my guy a lot)you had already "behaved well enough" so it became an entitlement to engeneer discord and hurt for percieved injustices...in otherwords to emotionally abuse. That was infinately worse than any physical intimidation by the way. BUT to US, we have no idea there is build up- at least my guy hides it very well(withholding) - and so I am minding my own business and there is a rage- verbally attacking me- interrogating- backing me into a corner with word games- it may be boiling or building for days...and weeks....but i don't know that unless he TELLS ME- and he can't or won't and it is usually something he can't let go of- he has no mechanism for letting go of percieved transgressions. So he builds a case against me (and everyone else) and continues to project and blame shift.

Your post is so helpful because I guess I can be more specific with the question-

Every person in life feels "put out" at one tme or another, feels martyred, unjustly treated, etc. BUT we have to deal with it without hurting others- even the one's who did the original transgression- I have the coping skills to handle those situations and not internalize them. My guy does not- if he did this wouldn't be an issue-

So for example- at injustice number one - what is the way to deal with this at first? Learn to cope with the feeling of entitlement and do "fake it till you make it appropriate behaviors, or replace entitlement with gratitude.....Maybe it happens simultaneously? But if the behvior does not change- the situation is unliveable and if the thinking does not change then the behavior does not change...and i am not a credilbe source or barometer because he doesn't trust me- or ANYONE....

Projection is killing me.....
 
The engineering a fight thing that Dave describes is something that my partner and I are both guilty of doing.

What works well for both of us is to acknowledge and accept the feelings of "entitlement," rather than to dismiss or try to deal with it on our own. Just because a feeling is irrational doesn't mean it's wrong to have-- and for me, a great part of WHY I let myself get so angry and internalize the kind of feelings that Dave describes, is that I didn't feel like I had permission to have those feelings for most of my life.

My partner doesn't need me to be perfect-- he's not going to think any less of me if I share some of my more petty emotional responses with him, and having the freedom to say "I know it's childish, but I just got so mad because the hot water ran out" makes me feel loved too, and defuses the situation.
 
I think a lot of this is really helpful for me, but I was doing ok with the day to day sort of projections and anger. Rage is a good word, it's so accurate. The facial expressions in themselves that my ex uses are completely unlike anything I've ever seen before. So many people remark on that. However, what I was mostly concerned about was when projection gets to the point where he is victimizing you as retribution for things he has perceived you as doing, that you never did, or would ever think of doing.

There have been a few for me like this with him, the most recent one being a pregnancy from our relationship that lost heart beat at 3&1/2 months and had to be terminated. Since he wasn't talking to me when I found out at 2 months, he just reacted and accused me of lying, and since he won't look at the ultrasound, or any documents from teh hospital. As a result of his accusation, since he feels he's being lied about, and made to look bad, he has spread rumors about me all over our university. As I am still recoverign from my SA this past year some 4 months before the onset of the pregnancy, I'm suffering from PTSD, and since all of my friends have graduated, this makes going to school and keeping my grades up for my future really hard. I've tried everything, but since he won't even look at documents, or talk to anyone who went to medical appointments with me, I don't know what else to do.

I know I went way to long without setting standards for him, and let him rage against me for a long time, which is why this got so out of control, and I know that he just doesn't know what it's like to trust a person, but sometimes it hurts so much when you have been through so much, and you're just trying to support him, and he just can't see it.

I wanttohelphim is right. Projection is so painful, and it's been months now and I keep wondering or hoping that he'll put things together and see that all his rage and accusations are not consistent with me and the way taht I have behaved towards him. It's so disorienting beign seen as somehow associated with the abuser, and what is hardest is that I am the only person that he has ever told about the abuse, and I don't know how he went from loving and trusting me enough to open up willingly and share that with me, and that was a wonderful experience, we were really close in that moment. How do you go from that to never wanting to talk to me again within a 48 hour period? It's just very disorienting.

Sorry, I'm just ranting now, but sometimes it's frustrating. I just hate that this happened to him, because he is such a good person in so many ways, and he doesn't deserve to be scared all of the time like this. Especially since he's safe now. I just wish he could see that. It makes me so sad.

Thanks to all of you for all of your advice,
J xo
 
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