Please Help

Please Help
J

jalekzander93

New Registrant
Back around the end of August of last year, me and my boyfriend broke up with each other (I’m a male, and I’m gay as well). In September, I started dating this other guy as a rebound. We went on a few dates, but I genuinely did not have any sexual attraction to this individual, as he was simply not my type. On November 1st, this guy came to my house. We started watching a movie and had dinner, and then later on he wanted to go into the bedroom to cuddle. I wasn’t necessarily comfortable with this, only due to the fact that I wasn’t attracted to him, but I did not say anything to him about it, I just went and cuddled with him anyway. A few minutes after we started cuddling, we started to kiss, and he started to pull my pants down and proceed oral sex on me. He did not ask me, but I didn’t try to stop him and I didn’t say no. I was uncomfortable only due to the fact that once again, I was not attracted to him. I laid there and let him do it until I orgasmed. After I was finished, he asked me to do the same with him. Honestly I was ready for him to go home at that point, but I felt like I needed to “return the favor”, as he just did the same to me. Once again, I was uncomfortable because I was not attracted to him (I cannot stress that enough), but I did not say no, I just did it with the mindset, “I’m just ready to get this over with”. Long story short, a few days later, he texted me saying “When I was over and you sucked me, I got the vibe that you didn’t want to do it and you only did it because I asked and it’s been bothering me”, I replied, telling him that honestly I wasn’t ready for that (I just used that as a cover up, because I didn’t want to tell him that I wasn’t attracted to him, because I didn’t want to hurt his feelings). He responded back to me very upset because he said that I should have told him that I wasn’t comfortable with that, and he felt horrible that I did something that I wasn’t ready to do because of him and to not lie to him just because I “think” he would get mad if he told the truth. Here’s where it gets tricky: about two weeks later we went on a couple of dates (neither at my house or his, but at a restaurant). I could tell he was kinda upset that we kept going to restaurants, rather than going over to each other’s houses. Early one morning, he texted me asking me if I was worried about having a “night in” because of the possibility of one of us wanting sex, because I had told him that it took me longer to become ready to be sexual with a person (once again, I just told him this because I didn't want to hurt his feelings). The text conversation then turned into other things, then he started saying things like, “it makes me feel like you don’t want me because you don’t try to have sex with me”. The fact that he said this leads me to wonder what would have happened if I told him that I didn’t want to go down on him…would he have gotten upset or try to pressure me? I feel that if I would have said no that I would have been coerced and pressured and I didn't say no, not because I was scared for my life or anything, but rather that an awkward situation would have happened that could potentially lead to an argument or uncomfortable conversation, which is why at this point I'm starting to feel that I was possibly assaulted.

During that text conversation with this young man, I started to tell him that I was feeling pressured and I was not ready to be sexual and I needed him to respect that. After I told him that, he started to respect it by asking me questions like, "do you not want to kiss or cuddle for now", and then started saying things like, "I don't want you to feel pressured again.

Long story short, me and this individual no longer talk due to other issues, I broke it off with him about a month after that, right before Christmas. Between the time that this happened and the time I broke it off with him, I did not ever think for one minute that I was molested or raped, I just thought of it as, I was in a situation to avoid hurting someone’s feelings by telling them I wasn’t attracted to them. I told my father about it and he said to me, “It sounds like you were molested and you need to go make a police report”. When my father said this, I immediately felt hurt, and I started to believe that I was raped or molested. Long story short, I went to make a police report in the jurisdiction that I was in, and a couple of days later the detective called me telling me that this did NOT constitute as a sexual assault and it was consensual, even though I did not give an “enthusiastic yes”. I would have thought that would have put my mind at ease, but honestly it didn’t. I’m searching all over the internet for this kind of thing, and my anxiety is running through the roof. I'm seeing things that says sexual coercion is rape, and other articles where people are saying that sexual coercion is rape. This has turned my life upside down, and I have been suffering mentally for the last 8 months.
 
As I read this, and I accept I do not have the whole picture or an understanding of you as a person or your relationship, so please take this in this context. What I read here is someone that is struggling with a break up, depression and anxiety, someone whose head is running on monkey brain, link added. By this I mean listening to the stories our head create, rather than logic.

This is a bad experience, and one that is bound to make you feel like you are now. But it is also one you can learn form. You need to be honest with yourself, and those with whom you have a relationship with. Being assertive is not about being confrontational, or aggressive, you can say no without it escalating in to a argument. A no with a explanation, not necessarily the whole truth, but an “I am not ready”, or “I‘m sorry, I am struggling with physical contact at the moment” could have avoided this, and if these statement ever did escalate to an agreement, then you know they are the wrong person anyway.

As for you partner without a no, or even a “sorry I don’t do that”, how could he know you were not willing or indeed desiring the contact, it is up to the two of you to agree and share your personal boundaries, to agree what is and isn’t on table , what a cuddle means to you both individually. There is difference between saying no, and reluctance from your partners perspective. Ask yourself what was he seeing? What would you have done in his position, Knowing only what he knew?

All of this is not to say you are wrong or it was your thought, it’s just putting alternatives, helping you counter the thoughts created by anxiety or you monkey brain. But in short the most important think for you to do is to look after yourself and give yourself the loving kindness and self compassion you so very much desire.
 
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@jalekzander93 Good afternoon friend, and I’m very sorry for what you experienced. I’m going to reply because of the title, “Please Help.”

-I don’t believe the legal standard (enthusiastic yes, or no) is correct. When we talk of a lack of consent, it’s “Yes to everything!” Or “Nope, I shut it all down.” That is just not the reality of sex or of lack of consent.

-What you describe includes penetration

-You used the language that your mindset was, I just wanted to get this over with.

-He might have interpreted you erect as consent, you orgasming as consent (afterward???), or you simply accepting it as consent, or complying with reciprocation as consent…but there was no discussion, it sounds, of what would be happening, who would be doing what, how long, where you or he was going to e—————-. It doesn’t sound like he checked in with you.

-For LGBTQ, there is, in my opinion, no sex education for these guys (at least there wasn’t for me growing up), and certainly no discussion growing up of lack of consent, what that looks like in the LGBTQ community, or what it looks like when it comes to, for example, oral in the LGBTQ community.

-It does sound like whatever he might have understood as “implied” may not have even been the case, because, he said to you, you wrote, “I got the vibe you didn’t want to do that and only did it because I asked you,” yet again, he never checked in with you.

-It sounds like your ability to consent was taken away from you

-I guess I’m saying that I see you.

-I have found my therapist, who is female, and not gay, to be very helpful in understanding me…whereas I feel gay men do not.

-J
 
We do get stories like this on the site from time to time, and they're all pretty similar. In fact this one almost sounds exactly like one posted a few months ago. I likewise agree that you weren't assaulted. You did not give your sex partner a no or even a maybe. Enthusiastic consent isn't the law anywhere and even though he may have done better to go home when he got a bad vibe from you, vibes can't replace a clear "no thanks" from you.

This doesn't mean you haven't been through a shitty experience. You have. I echo the idea of counseling for you. With the right therapist, you can make sense out of this encounter and they may help you to be able to set and express your boundaries better in the future.
 
Hmm, I see that you actually DID post this, back in December 2021, word-for-word, here.

Any reason why you chose to do this, without even an update?
 
Strangeways said:
Hmm, I see that you actually DID post this, back in December 2021, word-for-word, here.

Any reason why you chose to do this, without even an update?
Click to expand...
Nothing gets past @Strangeways

But I will echo:

“With the right therapist, you can make sense out of this encounter and they may help you to be able to set and express your boundaries better in the future.”
 
I'm sorry for the pain and anxiety you're in, and hope my feedback can bring you some peace. In my opinion this wasn't assault and you weren't coerced, but I have some advice for how to prevent this in the future and to heal from the anxiety and pain you're going through.

I say that as a man who also once went on dates and slept with a guy who I wasn't attracted in or interested in, all because I couldn't say 'no'. As a child and a young man I used to have extreme difficulty telling people 'no'. I was a people-pleaser to the extreme. I often told people only what they wanted to hear even if it was something I didn't believe it. I often did whatever people wanted or expected of me, even if it was something I didn't want to do. I had an almost instinctual reaction to disapproval, an gnawing anxiety I felt in my gut whenever I feared I had done something others would disapprove of. It was awful, and I couldn't rationalize it away. As an adult, I came to realize my childhood abuse had instilled within me a deep-seated low self-esteem, and that this was the primary source of my inability to tell others 'no'. I came to identify as a codependent, as someone whose need to please others would make me miserable until I could learn how to change. And I started seeing a therapist who helped me with my low self-esteem and my chronic fear of disapproval. My therapist helped me learn how to set boundaries, and with that my self-esteem improved.

I see a strong similarity with who I used to be and your story, particularly the repeated chance to say 'no' and the decision to acquiesce to someone else rather than upset them. That's not to say you have issues with codependency like I used to, but regardless, I believe that a therapist can greatly help you with setting boundaries with future men.

If it helps, I think that even while your ex wasn't a good match for you, what he did wasn't coercion or assault. He didn't force, he asked for feedback at several points, he was upset when he realized he had hurt you, and then he respected your wishes after that night of sex. I believe he shouldn't be dinged for acting decently and taking his time (waiting over a month before having sex is something I rarely hear from LGBT+ friends). You knew he wasn't right for you from the beginning, so give yourself whatever time and approval you need to move on. Trust your initial reactions, that this wasn't assault.

I hope this gives you a sense of peace and helps you move on.
 
If I were this person coming to the forum though, and the LGBT section, I would not want to be told by multiple men that what I experienced was not “assault,” when what it appears he is trying to talk about is non-consensual sex between gay men….

I would repost it in the hopes someone would hear me and help…

If he comes to this conclusion in order to reach acceptance and move beyond, great

But I disagree that what he specifically wrote cannot be interpreted as non-consensual sex …

My own experience, which I don’t feel that comfortable posting separately: I feel the gay man (my neighbor) who r—-d me on the floor, got off on it…I couldn’t breathe, I couldnt move my arms, he kept going and going for what seemed like forever and wouldn’t stop, aggressively dominating me. I remember thinking the same thing, when will this be over, and more or less remember nothing of the thrusting (I was imagining the building with a red flashing light behind him, although I couldn’t see it, it was black). We had discussed on Grindr exactly what would be happening: “blowie,” he finishes on my face, I leave. But that’s not what happened. He subjects me to total domination. When he’s done, I am sweating so profusely, I ask if he came down my throat and he says, “What you couldn’t tell?” Then he says, “Thanks for helping me get undressed after work.” Which is my cue to leave.

Anyway you guys are really great but telling someone that what they experienced was most definitely not assault would not be something that would help me….

I think, if you have something to add, from your own experience, that would help this person make sense of their own….great

Anyway thanks guys!

-J
 
Guys, I just want to make myself clear on one thing.

First let me apologize for making a separate thread, I did not know how to respond to my original thread that I posted back in December of 2021, but comes to figure out I wasn’t logged in which I just figured out.

I really wasn’t uncomfortable with receiving oral from this guy. No he did not ask me if he could perform but tbh who is going to turn oral down? So that I was okay with.

However, I wasn’t comfortable with giving this guy head. I wasn’t comfortable for the main reason that I was not attracted to him physically. At that time, I was in a very vulnerable place still recovering from my breakup with my old ex, and this guy was just around as a distraction. Yes, I was using him. Was it a messed up thing to do? ABSOLUTELY! I didn’t say anything about me being uncomfortable because I am not the type of person who is good having awkward conversations, and had I came out and told him that I didn’t want to do it I already know the conversation would have been awkward.

Legally, the police said it was consensual, other friends that I have spoke about this with also said it was consensual. But for some reason, this will not get off of my brain. This has turned my life upside down. It has put me in a state of depression, I have been drinking more, I have had thoughts of suicide and I’m not going to lie I have had thoughts of reaching out to this person to talk about it.

As I added in my post, we went on a date to a restaurant about a week or so after this, and he stated that he felt bad and he felt like a predator. After that, we went on another date a week or so later. The day after that date was when he mentioned to me if I was worried about going to each other’s houses because of the possibility of one of us wanting sex (as stated, he said this because I told him it takes me longer than others to go to the next step sexually which was true). Then he started saying he was bothered because he was wondering if we still not would have done anything if he hadn’t just pulled my pants down that day, and that it makes him feel like I don’t want him since I don’t try to f*** him and how he didn’t know how to feel since I was comfortable with him giving me oral but I “wasn’t ready” to do the same thing to him. After that, I came right out and told him I wasn’t 100% ready to be sexual, which he then got the point by asking me after that “do you not want to kiss or cuddle for now”, and “I don’t want you to feel pressured again”. Everybody wants to talk about counseling but I can’t afford it, so I feel like I’m in a rock and a hard place.

I just want to know from others if this encounter classifies as rape, molestation, assault etc.
 
I’m very sorry about this experience. Here is my thought:
Just because/even if, this is not legally considered assault-it doesn’t mean it wasn’t traumatic. It obviously was and it doesn’t matter what it’s called.

I believe this can be a learning moment. Moving forward, if you don’t want someone to touch you or you don’t want to touch him IT IS OK TO SAY NO!

You might also say: I am not going to have sex/be intimate with someone to which I’m not committed. Period. Nothing else needs to me be said.

I understand this may be difficult, but you have a right to say no—and so does the other person.

You say you can’t afford therapy-I understand that as well. You can, however, journal: write your thoughts a feelings—about whatever. This journal is for you & your eyes only. Write your fears, secrets, and desires. Write about your pain, your confusion. Write about how you will handle situations like this in the future.

There is no reason to berate yourself as to how you might have handled this situation differently. However, you can gently tell yourself, in writing, you could have (please don’t tell yourself SHOULD have) taken steps A, B & C—and then consider what those steps might have been.

Be kind to yourself @jalekzander93.

Always remember you are worthy of love & respect.

Worthy is the opposite of worthless—and you are NOT worthless. You might be confused, misunderstood, ashamed, afraid and worried. But you ARE NOT WORTHLESS.
Don’t ever let others tell you differently.

Joe
 
Strangeways said:
Hmm, I see that you actually DID post this, back in December 2021, word-for-word, here.

Any reason why you chose to do this, without even an update?
Click to expand...
Just to make a small clarification, this new thread is not a mere copy-paste scenario. Sure, there's the bulk of the info that seems to be. But there's more to it than just that.

@J1989 Makes a great point!
As does @NotAshamed1962.

@jalekzander93, my first question would be more of: the police gave you answer. So, what is it really that you're looking for? Rape, molestation, assault and other terms carry legal definitions. The law, and not even another person, can dictate if your experience was traumatic or not. And it sure seems like it was traumatic.

Why is that you feel like you're between a rock and hard place? What is this pressure that you're feeling?
 
@jalekzander93 it can be really tough to say no when you’re in an intimate situation as the one you described above. It sounds like such a gray area to be in. In many states, sexual assault is considered any sexual act or attention that is coerced, non-consensual, or forced. Regardless of whether it is “legally considered assault” where you live doesn’t mean that what you experienced was 100% desired mutually by the two of you during the entire duration of its occurrence. There was an inner sense of pressured compromise that you were forced to make in the split seconds the intimate situation the two of you were in became sexual. Boundaries can be so hard to set and maintain, especially in intimate situations.

Your voice is worth being heard (both internally and externally), and your boundaries are worth being set.

You’re worth more than settling to be around someone you don’t feel a connection with regardless of whether it’s a date, cuddling, or sex.
 
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J1989 said:
If I were this person coming to the forum though, and the LGBT section, I would not want to be told by multiple men that what I experienced was not “assault,” when what it appears he is trying to talk about is non-consensual sex between gay men….

I would repost it in the hopes someone would hear me and help…

If he comes to this conclusion in order to reach acceptance and move beyond, great

But I disagree that what he specifically wrote cannot be interpreted as non-consensual sex …

My own experience, which I don’t feel that comfortable posting separately: I feel the gay man (my neighbor) who r—-d me on the floor, got off on it…I couldn’t breathe, I couldnt move my arms, he kept going and going for what seemed like forever and wouldn’t stop, aggressively dominating me. I remember thinking the same thing, when will this be over, and more or less remember nothing of the thrusting (I was imagining the building with a red flashing light behind him, although I couldn’t see it, it was black). We had discussed on Grindr exactly what would be happening: “blowie,” he finishes on my face, I leave. But that’s not what happened. He subjects me to total domination. When he’s done, I am sweating so profusely, I ask if he came down my throat and he says, “What you couldn’t tell?” Then he says, “Thanks for helping me get undressed after work.” Which is my cue to leave.

Anyway you guys are really great but telling someone that what they experienced was most definitely not assault would not be something that would help me….

I think, if you have something to add, from your own experience, that would help this person make sense of their own….great

Anyway thanks guys!

-J
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I would agree with your posts within this thread. I don’t think the fine points about the legal classification of the act help the emotional trauma experienced by victims.
 
CaliforniaScot said:
I don’t think the fine points about the legal classification of the act help the emotional trauma experienced by victims.
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I would normally agree, except he's receiving poor legal advice from family members, and as a result he's specifically asking if what he experienced was sexual coercion (it wasn't).

He's getting very different replies from the last time he posted this. I still feel terrible for the man he falsely accused of sexual assault, but it sounds like that man has justifiably cut him out already and moved on - and I hope he receives therapy for what he experienced as well. Being falsely accused is traumatic, too.
 
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Strangeways said:
I would normally agree, except he's receiving poor legal advice from family members, and as a result he's specifically asking if what he experienced was sexual coercion (it wasn't).

He's getting very different replies from the last time he posted this. I still feel terrible for the man he falsely accused of sexual assault, but it sounds like that man has justifiably cut him out already and moved on - and I hope he receives therapy for what he experienced as well. Being falsely accused is traumatic, too.
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Umm…..

I’m not sure how to take this on, so I will let it stand on its own…I think it comes from a place of hurt, personally…

But for the record, being falsely accused, and being raped, are in no way similar.
 
J1989 said:
But for the record, being falsely accused, and being raped, are in no way similar.
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I didn't think I made that equivalence, but let me state for the record that I agree with you. I have been both falsely accused AND raped. Rape is far, far worse. But the fact that one is worse doesn't make the other OK.

Let me point out that the original poster was not raped, coerced, or led on (at least not during the encounter described), but he did falsely accuse someone.
 
Strangeways said:
I didn't think I made that equivalence, but let me state for the record that I agree with you. I have been both falsely accused AND raped. Rape is far, far worse. But the fact that one is worse doesn't make the other OK.

Let me point out that the original poster was not raped (at least not during the encounter described), but he did falsely accuse someone.
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I did not mean to imply he was raped. Have a nice day Strangeways! Also for the record, for your other post, scratching back etc sounds very pleasurable…one can give and receive pleasure without, you know…
 
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