perspective, please?

perspective, please?
D

Debi135

Registrant
Hi, all - haven't posted for a long time now, probably a year or more. Found out about my husband's online porn habit at that time, threatened to leave, insisted he go to counseling. He agreed, and things got better, for a while. After a few months, I realized he hadn't talked about his counseling sessions for a while, so I asked if he was still going. He wasn't. I thought, fine... things are still better, and as long as things are improving, it'll be OK. Long story short, I discovered more bondage porn collected on his computer about a month ago...

We had a talk night before last... he kept saying that this was "our" problem and we just needed to try a little harder to communicate better. I told him that even though it's "ours", we each contribute to it individually, and asked him to tell me how he contributes to the problem. He completely shut down... The next morning he was just - and I'm searching for a word here - flattened. Teary, shaky, more emotionally miserable than I ever want to see anyone look. He said that when we were talking about the abuse and how it might affect our sex life, he "felt like he was floating above his body". When he was going to counseling, he never once talked about sex or his abuse with his counselor, because just the thought of doing so made him feel that way.

From the outside, here's what it looks like to me - it's as if there's this big, black thing he keeps locked in a closet inside his head, and as long as he can ignore it and keep it locked up, he can avoid feeling like this. When he opens that door, he falls into all that darkness and it's the worst he's ever felt, and it seems to him to be all-encompassing and irreparable.

And I feel absolutely horrible. Even though I think it would be a good thing for him to face this with the help of a counselor, I'm really being very selfish. I love him, I want to stay married to him, I want our sex life to be happy and healthy, and the only way for that to happen is to fix the marriage. The only way to fix the marriage is for BOTH of us to work on our stuff. So I'm the one making him look at his behavior. I'm the one not allowing him to brush it off as "our communication issue". And so, I'm indirectly causing him more pain than I ever want him to feel.

As for me, I feel like I've reached the end of my tether. I love him very much, I like who he is, and there are some very good things about our marriage. But I can't handle having bondage pornography in my house (not to mention a tepid sex life), and I can't believe it's going to stop without some serious effort from him. I think I might have some empathy for the reasons he's avoiding it, but I don't know if I can keep allowing him to ignore this.

And that makes me feel bad, too...

Would be very grateful for any perspective anyone else with these experiences could provide.
 
Debi

flattened. Teary, shaky, more emotionally miserable than I ever want to see anyone look. He said that when we were talking about the abuse and how it might affect our sex life, he "felt like he was floating above his body". When he was going to counseling, he never once talked about sex or his abuse with his counselor, because just the thought of doing so made him feel that way.
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That sounds like a man who isn't happy with what he's doing, he sounds as though he's realised that the porn isn't giving him what he believes it will.
Sex with strange men didn't give the 'ultimate sexual experience' either, and in the end; when I was still seeking these encounters and I came to realise that all I was doing was getting more and more depressed and desperate I somehow found the last remaining scrap of self esteem and made the decision to disclose my CSA to my wife and ask for help.
Sometimes we have to reach the bottom just to see that it's there and there's nowhere else to go.

The reasons we act out, use porn, drink and drugs or whatever dysfunctional behaviours we display, are many. But the simple version is "we believe that we're shit, so we act like shit"
We behave in the ways that we think fit the person we are, or the person we BELIEVE we are.
Our abuse led us to believe that we're 'shit' so we behave accordingly.
Yes, there are many other aspects and causes to our behaviour, but this one is I believe the one that is possibly going on for your husband right now.
He's looking at the bottom, and it's a scary place to be.

You can't do his healing, I think you know that already, but you can create a safe environment for him to disclose and begin his work. However hard it might seem for you all he's wanting is believing, trusting and supporting.

Your not likely to get much in return at the moment, but long term there's every possibility of the man you love returning.

Dave
 
Hi, Dave, and thanks for your response. My husband grudgingly agreed, just this morning, to go to counseling. He genuinely wants to improve our relationship, but doesn't see a connection between pornography and his abuse, and doesn't feel the need to talk to a third party about it. (He insists that we can just try harder to communicate, and get the same results...) Now that he's agreed to counseling, I'm ambivalent about it... we've been down this road before, a couple of times. It goes like this - I finally have enough, insist that he go to counseling with me, and he does. For a while. Then at some point (historically, when we start to talk about sex or his abuse) he decides it's too scary or that it makes him feel too bad. Or he claims that the therapist has no idea what they're talking about. And then he quits.

I guess it's just hard for me to scrape together the necessary optimism to feel that this time will be different. I guess the real difference, this time, would be me. I've only recently come to understand how destructive this situation is to me, and I'm not willing to allow it to continue any more.

Don't get me wrong... I know this is huge. I've never been in his shoes, so I can't understand what it's like, really... I just know it hurts him very much and I'm inexpressibly sorry about that. But I'm getting to the point in my life where I don't feel like I have a lot of time I can afford to waste. (Middle age, anyone??) I just don't know if I'm up for another round of no progress.

Aiii! I'm so sorry... I'm a little angry at the moment and trying to be optimistic and constructive seems to be beyond me. Thanks for letting me vent...
 
Please read PM that I sent to you.

Sophiesdad
 
Perhaps before you enter into counseling, you could either come up with a list of the things that are important to you that you want to explore. Perhaps, you could suggest to dh that he do the same. Then, perhaps, you could go over the list together and see what issues you have in common and use that as a springboard into enter into counseling.

If sex/abuse/porn is this big black hole for him, pressuring him to discuss it will probably drive him away as it is very scary.

Encouraging him to be courageous might be more productive and you expressing your admiration and appreciation that he's willing to enter into counseling will be supportive. It takes a lot of courage to deal with our fears and issues.

One thing I've some to realize that we really have very few needs, but lots of wants and preferences. You prefer to have a active sex life, a house free of porn, a husband who is present with you, etc.

But if you look, or think about it, these things are not really things that you "need", but are only wants or preferences, tho perhaps strong ones.

Expressing that you need these things, or whatever they are, only puts pressure on the other and implies blaming - i.e. "You're not meeting my needs". That frequently gets interpreted by the other that they are failing or is yet another example that they are "shit" as lloydy so aptly described.

I would also caution you to interview any prospective counselor or therapist. It takes some experience to deal with sexual issues, especially ones related to CSA.

I found in my own experience as a female CSA survivor and dealing with a lack of postive sexual responses in my own sexuality, that not every counselor is equiped to deal these issues.

I prematurely terminated marriage counseling therapy that was really sex therapy which was the stated reason for the therapy, even though the counselor was a ph.d. psychologist and was quite reputable in the field.

The primary reason was that I became uncomfortable with the process largely due to the CSA issues. I couldn't have articulated the whys back then as I really didn't view it as sexual abuse. But it became a roadblock to healing b/c it (SA) wasn't addressed. I'm not sure if the question of sexual abuse was brought up in the intial evaluation :(

I do regret that we didn't have one more session to deal with my resistance, because it wasn't that I was unwilling, just that I had this internal drive to back off due to my internal/psychic discomfort. This was 20 years ago and of course my issues didn't get any better, only worse and more dysfunctional.

Anyway, it's important that you both feel comfortable with the therapist.

We recently entered into marriage counseling again due to various issues. After a couple of sessions, it became really clear to me that I would never bring up sexuality isseus with this counselor. He was already too aligned with my husband and it was clear that he didn't operate in the feeling whelm as he was more of a cognitive behavior therapist.

You have to shop around some unfortunately.

I also found it helpful to have my own individual theraptist to deal with CSA. While my marriage has greatly suffered because of it, my husband is really not in a place to be supportive b/c of his own issues/ mid-life crisis.

So even if the marriage counseling isn't a go, maybe your own therapy would be healing for you.

I've found that I am a much more stronger person and am more available to address and support the others in my family. We've have many stresses and crisises the past few months.

Reading Boundaries by Anne Katherine really helped to strengthen my own sense of self and was a good springboard for further grownth and healing. She writes it more for women and has lots of examples of women who have had SA. Not surprisingly, they have issues with boundaries! There might be enough cross over that you could benefit.

Good luck. IT's not easy.

Peaceful

I am stronger than what happened to me.
 
Hi Debi,

This stood out to me in your post:
I guess the real difference, this time, would be me. I've only recently come to understand how destructive this situation is to me, and I'm not willing to allow it to continue any more.
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Sometimes partners hit the bottom too.
Of course you want to keep supporting your husband-- but at this point maybe it's time to focus your energy on healing and helping yourself.

One turning point for me came somewhat early after my boyfriend disclosed to me-- a professor at my college, who'd never met my boyfriend and had no idea what was going on in my life, pulled me aside in the hall one day and said, "Listen, please don't take this the wrong way, but whatever it is that's keeping you from doing the work you're capable of doing-- get help for it now." It was really a lightbulb moment, because until then, I knew that the disclosure and betrayal had affected me, but I wasn't thinking of any of it as *my* problem, in the sense that *I* needed help for it.

Peaceful is right that focusing on the negatives of your relationship with your husband may make him feel like the situation is hopeless-- but just because you don't "NEED" a relationship that satisfies you doesn't mean it's not destructive to be in an unsatisfying relationship.

What can you do for yourself, right now, that will help you to reconstruct your own life, while still respecting and supporting your husband?

SAR
 
Debi
Peaceful makes many good points there, as does SAR as well.

The main one being that there are times when we need to deal with our crap as an individual, and that includes both people.

I know for certain that I couldn't have dealt with my CSA in couples therapy, absoluely out of the question. But the same night I would talk endlessly to my wife about what I discussed and thought in my session.
My wife didn't have any therapy at all, but she always said that if she felt it would be of help she would go, but not with me.

I wasn't hiding anything, but I had to do it my way and at my speed, which I think most survivors do.
Also we have issues that we sort out in therapy that when we take them there might sound like criticism of our partners, but once dealt with we see differently.

My healing has always been a strange arrangement between my wife and I, she makes no demands and doesn't interfere in any way at all; but together we agree on goals and boundaries, and mutual support.
It suits us, it might not suit everyone though.

Dave
 
Thanks to all for your thoughtful responses.

Dave, I'm interested in something you said about "goals and boundaries" - could you give a for instance? Doesn't have to be personally relevant, you might make something up to illustrate that idea. I'm still working on the idea of boundaries, and struggling with the fact that my husband has ignored my boundaries for years. As for goals, I can't even begin to think about where we might go with that.

In fact, Patience's point about "needs" and "wants" kind of hit a nerve for me. (Not hard to do, I seem to be one big nerve these days...) Patience makes a good point that pressuring someone to do something they're uncomfortable doing is almost always counterproductive. It's also absolutely true that my wishes to have a porn-free home and a happy sex life are not needs in the sense that food, clothing, and shelter are needs. But I've only recently come to understand how destructive it is for me to continue to accept the fact that my husband collects pornography despite my objections, and to remain in a relationship in which our sex life is so tense. One of the ways I justified accepting these negatives was by telling myself that since my wishes weren't "needs", they weren't important. I'm starting to realize that I need to protect myself and my feelings as well as his. (Thanks, SAR, for the good advice about cultivatng my own life - I'm workin' on that one...)

Thanks, again, for your kind responses and for allowing me to vent to you guys.
 
Debi, I feel your pain. It's hard to remove yourself from your spouses problems cause honestly their problems are your problems. It's in the fine print of the marriage cert.

When my SA spouse was first starting to deal with everything I was trying hard (too hard I'm sure) to support him and keep him moving in a healing direction but I was just cripling myself. After a while I couldn't see our relationship going anywhere but sour. In the end we agreed to back off and just be friends. For me being married to someone who couldn't "keep it together", for lack of a better phrase, from day to day was over whelming and horrifying to me. One day I'd come home and he'd be a mess (didn't even get out of bed much less go to work), the next he'd want to be all touching, lovey, kisses and hugs. I could feel myself getting ready to run as fast as I could away from the whole situation.

Saying we'll be friends took a lot pressure off of both of us. Sex, finances, the future of our relationship didn't seem so drastically important to deal with right then as friends. Of course our marriage therapist didn't like the idea but it helped us when we needed it. It allowed me to back away from pushing him to fix the problem. It took the stress of having to perform "the manly" duties from him is mind as well.

My spouse is the emotional one of the two of us. He deals with things, in general, with emotion. I tend to deal with facts, if there's a problem, fix it and move on. He's seeing a cognitive behavioral therapist now instead of a marriage therapist. The change has been really helpful. He didn't admit the abuse to the last therapist. He said he didn't trust her. So, I left it up to him to find another therapist (but insisted that he find one) and the progress (painfully slow some days) is there (it's taken 4-6 months for me to see progress - just telling you it may take a while).

I also started medication to deal with own depression and anger... which may have had the greatest effect on how I saw the situation. I have to say that also helped to... refocus, quelsh my sexual frustration, if that's a problem. ;)
 
Sorry for the delay in replying here. :rolleyes:

Dave, I'm interested in something you said about "goals and boundaries"
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The goals were, are, mainly things that I come up with. I would like to be better organised is one I'm working on now. For....ever..I've been disorganised, I don't look at my watch so I' always late, never write important dates on the calendar so I miss them ( missed one today actually :o ) and I'm very untidy, my desk here is a tip.
But I think the reason I've been this way for so long is A. I didn't give a ****, and B. I lived in my very confused little world.
But as I've sorted myself out I can now begin to work on these seemingly unrelated behaviours. Now I also have the tools and skills to bring about changes, the one's I use in my recovery.

Naturally I tell my wife about what I hope to achieve, my goals might come from me initially n but we work together; well that's the plan anyway! so it is a joint effort.

Boundaries are even more a joint effort because she also sets boundaries that I have to make my best efforts to stick to.
Things like being honest and not lying to her, and as I've moved on that's come to include 'lying by ommission' - not telling her something.

In my early recovery the agreed boundaries were somewhat slacker, mainly because we were both starting out on something unknown to both of us.
But I can remember talking a few days after I disclosed to her about my CSA about "what I was going to do?" And a boundary I asked for, and got, was that "I didn't have to tell her details, she wouldn't press me for details, but I would give her details if I could"
That one still works for us both today.

The boundaries are flexible though, and many are instinctive as well. After 31 years of marriage we know when the other person is about to start throwing toys out of the pram, so we back off.

We've actually gone from my disclosure in mid 1998 to now without having one argument related to my recovery. My underwear's on the bathroom floor right now, so some toys will head my way when we go to bed later :rolleyes: but that's marriage ;)

Dave
 
Hi Debi,
Lots of folks here with a whole lot more knowledge and experience have shared with you already some great stuff.
But I wanted to share a piece of my experience related to the pornography. I too have a HUGE problem with having ANY pornography in the house. It felt consistently as if my Hubby was cheating on me. Besides the fact that early in our marriage he had made promise after promise to not have this crap I would always find his "stash".
My problem did not center around discomfort in knowing that he masturbated I have always felt that masturbation was normal and just another form of sexual pleasure whether alone or shared with a partner. What I did NOT know was the extent or how often my Hubby was masturbating.
Even though my brain could tell me that men were "visual" creatures for sexual stimulation, it did nothing for my inner gut feeling to quiet down.
When we had what we call our "blow up" or "explosion" in our home, Hubby placed himself in therapy with a supposed "specialist" for Male SA survivors. Through this therapist he found a group for Sex Addicts. Hubby took the little "test" and answered yes to pretty much every question. From their he filled out an "application" as these groups are screened to keep the member safe.
I too can identify with the multiple promises of yes I will go to therapy. Hubby had so many false starts I got to the point and still am at the point that if he ever actually follows through the earth will shift on its axis. The Sex Addicts group did a world of good for him and he found many men just like himself who not only had partners just as angry and hurt as myself, but guys who were also SA survivors.
I think what helped him begin to deal with his SA issues is dealing with the ONE behavior that was most impacting his life and controlling his life at the time. His addiction to the pornography. Hubby shared one time that he could go several months without having the nasty magazines in the house but once the computer entered our home it was almost impossible for him to get through a day. He did share that at his worst of behavior he would masturbate up to 10 - 15 times a day. It was not satisfying for him but it was uncontrollable addiction.
For some insane reason that made sense to me. It finally clicked for myself to understand that his sex addiction was just that, an addiction no less than being addicted to heroin or morphine or gambling etc.
His whole day was consumed with thoughts of how and when he could fill and satisfy his addiction next. The sex addiction group was a comfort zone for him. One would think or at least I did at first if one was a sex addict he and I would be having sex continuesly. But it was the opposite. He was physically tired and unable to have sex with me, but more so because mentally he was too busy punishing himself for "doing something so disgusting" (his words).
The sex addicts group is basically based on A.A. 12 step process but it has worked for him. He is now more than a year sober from pornography and masturbation. I am very proud of him and he is very proud of himself. It has been a beautiful sight to see his self esteem slowly rise and see pride in him and hear it in his voice also.
Perhaps Debi, this could be a first step for your partner too? There are so many ways to address the multiple issues that come from being a survivor and no one is the perfect right answer. I just thougth maybe this could be something for you to share and think about together also.
Peace, Sammy
 
What characteristics constitute sex addiction? I ask because, on the one hand, while my friend who was abused considers himself a sex addict, on the other, he has not engaged in sex for some time, nor does he enjoy it. So what is it that makes him consider himself a sex addict?
 
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