PARANOIA and HOMOPHOBIC reactions

PARANOIA and HOMOPHOBIC reactions
lostcowboy

lostcowboy

Registrant
I promised Danny that I would write about this and I have been delaying long enough. Bobby posted a message that reminded me about this.

HOMOPHOBIC reactions!
I still have them. So far I have had three. One was due to something Danny said, you can read about that, about half way down this page. https://malesurvivor.org/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000320

One was in a chat room, the guy asked me about my fantasies, I made a decision not to go back into chat, my homophobic reactions can build up to fast there. The last was from a PM a guy sent me thinking me for starting one of my posts. But he started it with (Dear Lostcowboy) and ended it with (I love you).
Please understand none of the guys, stepped over any lines here. Its just that it set off my homophobic reactions is all.

PARANOIA reactions! So far I haven't had any here, keep knocking on wood! But I have had them in the navy, or maybe they were really out to get me. I know anytime I move to a new place, or new command, or new job, I am on guard for someone to try and fuck me over, and there seems to always be someone. Sorry for the French. I think a lot of my paranoia feelings came about due to all the schools I went to growing up, there was always a bully or two that wanted to fight the new kid. My dad who I worshiped, had made us promise not to fight. I think dad thought we were all going to grow up like him, six foot one and weighing 300 pounds, with huge muscles. My grand dad, tried to teach my dad boxing once, the first punch my dad landed, put my grand dad on the ground unconscious, end of boxing lessons. My dad always worried that he would get mad and really hurt some one. I think that is why he kept reinforcing that he did not want us to fight unless it was for something important. In the second grade, my best friend one day decided to fight me, we were both outside of the group of boys, the bully's had been working on both of us trying to get us to fight. I think he thought fighting me would be the easer way to get in the group, maybe someone put him up to it. what ever, it made me mad, so I fought him, It took three boys to pull me off him, I had him down on the ground chocking him. I got a ruler across my hand for it, may have got a licking from dad, don't remember. But I do remember promising to myself not to lose my temper and fight again, it scared me pretty bad. I went to fifteen schools all together, there was always bully's, and people make believing that they were my friends and setting me up for betrayal. For a while I played with the girls, until about 11 or 12, and then they kicked me out of their group. After that I was pretty much a lone wolf growing up. I think my homophobic reactions started soon after puberty, I think it was in junior high that a guy asked me if I was a homosexual, I said no some what cautiously ( wondering what this new word meant, and if this was some new way some bully was trying to get me to fight), being that the guy accepted my answer and did not try to get me to fight, I asked him what it meant, and he said a guy that liked guys instead of girls. I did not figure this out until many years later, but I had been the last one to shower, to many times, ( I was trying to avoid guys watching me shower), the rape book I read, says that gay guys are normally the last to shower to avoid getting erections. Seems me and gay guys were showering last for very different reasons. Ain't that a hoot. I'll finish this later, It's getting late.
 
I'm back. High school wasn't to bad, no play grounds, and no more PE classes, the bully's were finally leaving me alone. The bad news was while I was real interested in girls, they were not interested in me ( at least as far as I could see). They seemed interested in guys on the honer role, or guys that were on the athletic teams. I could have made good grades if I would have done my homework I am sure, but ever since the 2ed grade I have boycotted homework. It was just my thing, why give me homework when I understood it from the problems we did in class. The only classes that doing the homework would have helped was in spelling and English, I quickly learned there was no logic to those two subjects, and if you asked the teacher why it was done that way, the answer was always, because it just was.
Got a little distracted there, oh yea, girls, the girls were still not showing any interest in me. So I graduated high school with about the lowest grades one could have, so I knew I was not going on to college, and they still had the draft going on, and we had just pulled out of Vietnam, but I was sure Nixon was going to get us back in. So I enlisted in the navy, I wanted electronics real bad, so I ended up volunteering for submarines to get it. Turns out the navy has two types of submarines, fast attack and boomer's, and I had just volunteered for boomer's. During all the schools, I found I had another problem, Social Anxiety, I was real nervous about how I behaved/related to/with my classmates during our free time, in the club. That was where I first started drinking.
When I reported to my first sub, I got a taste of the real navy, the harassment started up again. In my view point it was sexual harassment. Sometimes when I was down on my hands and knees scrubbing the deck, guys would come up behind me and pretend they were having sex with me. At first I thought these were gay guys,but no this were just Arrogant Assholes that were bored out of their minds, and they did it just to get a reaction out of me. Of course once they saw that they could get a reaction, they kept it up. This happened on all three submarines I was on. It may have something to do with it being a all male crew in cramped spaces, under stress. At that time I could not tell just anyone that I had been raped, even if I could have told them why their little game bothered me so much, I don't think that they would have stopped. Time for another break.
 
Well that really sucks, just lost the third installment!!
 
Hi Lostcowboy,

Keep it coming, we're reading and learning from you. I can relate to the homophobic reactions, I have them as well - not saying that's a good thing, but I recognize the feelings and where it comes from (being touched by my brother). The thought of it still makes my skin crawl, and I really don't like being touched by men. An older gentleman hugged me back in my mid-20s and I about jumped out of my skin, and I remember thinking "What the hell do you think you're doing!?!", but it was simply a reflex reaction. Even now, when sitting in Sunday School with a group of men, I tend to nudge my chair back and away from those sitting next to me, just don't like being in close proximety to men. I don't know that I'll ever be able to get beyond that, but maybe someday.
 
Isn't it just a form of post-traumatic stress disorder? I mean, I too pull my chair back when I feel that other men are getting too close. But it was men that attacked and terrified me. What I feel is that they are a threat, that they're judging me in some way. Showering in school was a daily nightmare. I was afraid that someone would look at me. And maybe yes, I've spent my life trying not to be like my perps, so I've avoided looking at others in the fear that in some way my look would be taken wrong.

I did read the post about the "Dear..." and the "I love..." That would have scared me off, too. And I know neither was meant with any wrong intent, but my knee-jerk reaction is, Stay away from me. It's the same as the former military guy diving under a table when fireworks go off, I think. Even though we know the context, we don't want to be hurt again.

That's my take on it, anyway.

ForeverFighting
 
Thanks guys. That third installment is going to take a while to get back in the mood to write it again. being that I have arthritis, I had been writing it for a few hours. When my mouse stopped on me, and I hit the esc button. DO NOT HIT THE ESC BUTTON!! It clears the whole page! Turned out I needed to change the batteries in my mouse.

Yes this could be all just a form of post-traumatic stress disorder. On the subs the harassment usually stopped by the third patrol on that sub. I did a total of 13 patrols. I don't want you guys to think that I only had bad times in the navy. There were good times too. The third installment was going to be about the last patrol, the first on the third sub. That was where I feel the paranoia thoughts took place. But is it paranoia if they are really after you?
Anyway, it will be a while before I get back in the mood to write about it. So feel free to jump in here and talk away.
 
LC, ever remember this one? I remember in late teens that men thought they had the right to touch me in the privates.

It totally confused me, I put it down to a conditioning of the abuse, and how I had tried to hide it by lowering boundaries.

My boundaries where severely damaged by rape, but I had to drop them and just try being full of the fun my child craved.

But he never really craved sexual touching from males who thought I was anybodys'. They only did it once, they got the message pretty quick. It was hard to drop boundaries with males, but if they stepped over, then they got a big shock.

Just because I open up my boundaries, does not mean I am yours or anyones', I suppose a "normal" male could deal with it more succinctly, but to me it was just like abuse!

I am not homophobic, because it is not gay men who do these things to kids, or sorry, most gay men would not do it.

I have never found a word to describe the scum who can rape the innocence from a kid, certainly it does not reside within me or anyone here.

When I read about abuse, it is like twisting a sword in the wound, I just want to be with the kid and help them, but where would you start?

In a nutshell, nobody touches me physically or mentally without my consent.

Nobody should ever do that to any living thing, but that is only my view,

ste
 
This post is two-fold.

First to STE, sorry about not replying! Yes touching is a very big thing with me. I am so sensitive about it. Even if someone gets in my private space I start to get uncomfortable.

Second, I thought I would pop this up again, as I have called on my old friend, and broke the news to him that I know about his past, I also told him about why I had avoided him for the last three years. In the process I told about how I came to get out of the navy, and he responded about him getting out of the navy due to being gay. We did not get a chance to go into deeper detail. I plan to call him again tomorrow to setup a meeting for coffee, but I am nervous about it. While I am not seeing sex abuser's and gays behind every tree, I think my spider senses are back on.
 
One of the student Therapist, had a survey on pandys.org which I answered, which lead to several emails back and forth. On the last one she sent she was wondering if my not having a therapist was related to the sex of the therapists, trust concerns. When I answered that question this came boiling out.

therapist/counsellor, why I don't have one. This falls more into Paranoia reactions than male or female concerns. My third installment on PARANOIA and HOMOPHOBIC reactions is about my last submarine patrol and all the things that went wrong that caused me to be forced out of the navy. I have a lot of anger about it, part of that anger is pointed at the navy's medical branch, in particular the mental health department. When I told the navy, I was on a sub on patrol, the sub pulled in early just to transfer me off. Of the three officers that saw me, only the female rape specialist on the sub base did a through interview. The squadron psychiatrist who first saw me asked me only two questions. Was I a homosexual, and was I suicidal. To both I answered no!, They had me sleep in the mental hearth barge, and work picking up trash around the base. Two weeks later I get a call from the chief I was working for, that I had missed my appointment to see the base female rape specialist and that I had ten minutes to get there before being written up. When I got there she had me stand at attention while she chewed me up one side and down the other for missing a appointment I did not know I had. She then took in a deep breath and let me have it again, about what the hell type of prank the squadron psychs were trying to pull on her, having her rearrange her appointments to squeeze me in and I am not even a women let alone a rape victim. She then said I had five minutes to explain my part in this prank. Well, five minutes stretched into three hours, at the end of which she made a tentative diagnosis of PTSD. She was even interested in taking on my case, but that was not to be, as my ship was home-ported out of Charleston S.C.. My sub came back in and we packed up and bused back to Charleston, where I was dangled on a string for four weeks waiting to see the second squadron psychiatrist. When I finally got to see him, he met me at the door to his office, said there was no need for me to come in I did not have PTSD, what I had was a drinking problem. I said , so that means I ain't going to get any treatment for rape? Right he says. Ok, when do I start treatment for my drinking problem then,( I am thinking this guy is a lost cause, and the faster I can get talking to someone else the better), that's when he looks up at me and grins. You are not getting treatments for your drinking , I am going along with your commands recommendations of a admin discharge. With that he let me go, when I got back to the command they had the initial paperwork laid out for me to sign.

I am going to stop this for now, and send it to you. I am going to save this part of the email to use later on the web site. It is definitely going in to part three of my PARANOIA and HOMOPHOBIC thread.
 
Lostcowboy,

I know it is paranoid, not sure if it homophobic reaction. But I can not stand someone behind me. Truly, it doesn't matter if it is a man or woman. In movie theater, I have to sit in the last row. A restaurant, with my back against the wall. To have someone behind me probably raises my blood pressure to twice normal. I am not to fond of touch either, even basic handshake or 'hug' hello greeting. I hate it, but most of the time now I do not flinch, cringe, and back away.

Leosha
 
I have read through this thread, and having been a victim of harrassment throughout my life,a molestation at a young age, and been in the Navy, I had to reply.

Firstly, the molestation is something I am just beginning to deal with, so I won't go into that right now.

I was harrassed throughout my school career from K-12, and the harassment did not stop until I left the Navy after six years at age 24. This took various forms from physical abuse to sexual harassment. In the Navy, especially while I was on the carrier, certain people would come up behind me, grab me and pretend to have sex. Others deliberately groped me, and yet others accused me of being gay because I didn't act like they did concerning females. The whole Navy environment breeds this kind of thing, especially with the cramped living conditions. (I am gay, but the abuse I suffered as a child made me repress it until I had an emotional breakdown.)

Regarding the military, and the Navy in particular: the establishments are hugely homophobic, which means that anything that can even remotely be linked to being gay is suspect. The psychologists in the military have one job: determine whether a servicemember's mental state places his or her fellows at risk, or makes them unfit for duty. They are not in the business of treating people for anything. I suspect that part of their method includes trying to shame people into "sucking it up" and to go on with their time in the service regardless of the mental and emotional damage they do in the process. The needs of the Navy come first, right?
 
Hi Dewey, I am so sorry that all that happened to you! You are so right the needs of the navy come first! In 1992, congress gave the navy their marching papers. Start cutting up ships and start shit-canning sailors any way they could! The only good thing that came about in those last few months was the new baby chief we had just got in was someone that I had know, from when I was on the sub-tender. I would go down on his sub to help fix his computers, putting in very long days, so his sub could get to sea on time. Anyway, he let me see the message on the navy's VSI program, and while I did not meet the requirements, he recommended that I apply, as if the admen discharge went through, I would be out of the navy at 17 years with no retirement to show for it. For once the god's looked down with favor, and the navy approved my VSI discharge, before the paperwork for the admin discharge had gone anywhere.
 
Good for you. Glad to hear you got something out of it after spending so much time in.
 
I used to be homophobic... for years in fact.

When I was forced to give oral sex from 8-12 yrs old, I didn't really think so much about homosexuals or heterosexuals. I just knew I didn't like it, nor the guys beating me up if I didn't give a good BJ. However as I grew older, I began to learn about homosexuals. Then I was confused because the guys messing with me, also began messing with girls, eventually leaving me alone. No qualms there! I tried to get on with my life and just pretend none of it ever happened although I was constantly afraid one of the guys would tell people at school I gave BJs. Of course now that I think back, they would have to be pretty damn stupid themselves to tell that, because that would mean they liked a guy messing with them, right?

Anyway, I really didn't know that many homosexuals to be honest. We never saw them around much. No one even talked about them. When I was molested and raped at 16, by my boss, I was convinced he must be homosexual. He must be gay (I to this day don't know if he was or not, nor do I give a damn)and so gays must cruise the streets and infiltrate businesses and society looking for young guys to rape. I hated them all. They actually scared the Hell out of me. I literally would almost vomit whenever I saw one openly gay. Even the little feminine ones scared me.

I didn't want them around me, and I really didn't care if they had rights or not. I didn't really care if they had feelings or not. All they wanted was young guys. In my mind they were as bad as a pack of wolves, always on the prowl.

I guess I was about 30 yrs old when my brother (my sole sibling) disclosed that he was gay. I couldn't believe it! In fact I totally igonored it as much as possible. BUt he wanted acceptance from me and would bring his partner over to my house. My oldest son was 2-3 at the time and I let him know that I did not want his partners around my kid. He said he understood and never brought another one around to my house, but God can you imagine the hurt I put on him? Talk about total non-acceptance. I was a total jackass. I was afraid of them! I was allowing my fears and hate to hurt and shun my brother. My wife tried talking to me, and gradually I could see that he was in love with this dude. He was with him for years! My parents accepted him and I felt like this was a slap in my face. I had never told them about any of my abuse because I didn't want to hurt THEM or make THEM think I was a bad son. Here they were embracing my brother who was living with the enemy! What the Hell?

My wife finally got me to talk to him and his partner at Christmas one year, and the guy was a Navy fighter pilot. A macho type. He was facinating! A 'normal' dude. He just happended to love my brother. I guess that's when I began to ease up some. I realized that this guy didn't want me and wasn't going to force himself on me. He loved my brother. He was good to my brother. I will say that I didn't allow my kids to ever stay over at my brother's house, not even for a minute. I guess I am still afraid, but I realize now through MS, and through my therapist, and some others, that what happend to me wasn't about sex. It was about power and control. That was the issue, not the homosexuality.

I have several homosexual friends, both males and females. I work with a few and I actually trust them more than I do the heterosexual coworkers. They seem to genuinely care more. I have never had a homosexual make a pass at me, that I can remember of off hand.

I act weird around people. I don't like anyone to touch me. I don't like anyone to walk up behind me without me knowing they are there. Never grab me. I don't like to be groped. I don't like hugging and I don't like kissing anyone but my wife, not even my Mom or mother-in-law. Some people at work think I am conceited and a snob. I am shy. Once they get to know me, they realize this. All of these reactions are made worse, though, if it is a male involved. Much worse. I will shake a dude's hand, but I don't like it. I will ALWAYS go to a restroom and wash "him" off of my hand. I absolutely hate the dudes that come up and grab me by a shoulder and chat with me. I will actually pull away from them before I even know it. Then the apologies begin, them for touching me, me for pulling away. I never tell them why. Very few people know about my abuse. For now, I like it that way.

So what am I? Paranoid or Homophobic? I think paranoid. I want to be better and treat others right, male and female, but I guess I have to admit that I have further to go in this area with guys than with women. Women are supposed to be silly and hug, guys aren't. I sure as hell don't want a silly guy hugging on me!!

After being here for over a year, I can honestly say that I love some of these guys. Like brothers or sons. Before I came here, I would never tell a guy I loved him, not even my father or brother. I still have trouble telling either of them that. I can tell my 18 yr old son that. I can tell a few guys at MS that I love them, but this is all new to me. I am beginning to accept my molestation for what it was, a power issue, not a sexual issue. I may not run up to a gay guy and give him a hug, nor will I allow him to hug me, but it isn't because he is gay. It isn't even because so much that he is a guy. It's because I don't like to be touched, male or female, but I am easing up. I can do the ((((_____))))) thing now for several months. Hey it's a step! And every once in a while, I just wish I could give some of the guys a real supportive hug and tell them everything will be OK. It will!

We are taught so much crap by American society, who we can touch or hug, who we can't. What we can say to another dude, what we better not say to another dude! This has a lot to do with homophobia in the USA. OF course so does religion. It is acceptable in the middle east for guys to hug, even kiss on the cheek, but a homosexual there will be killed! It's a shame we have let 'leaders' and people with power to dictate what we can and cannot do as humans. But then people with power are the reasons, for the most part, that any of us are here to begin with.

Maybe I'm not homophobic or paranoid, just mucked up. Sorry such a long reply.
 
Hi Rich, its good to get all that out! Now that you have it in writing, you can look at it better, and think on it some more.
 
I posted this in the gay section, but wanted to have it on this thread to.
posted August 12, 2005 07:01 PM
Well this sucks! I got to admit to you guys that I am not doing as good with my paranoia homophobic feelings as I thought I was doing. Not on here, but in real life. Here is what happened, My wife is filipino, one of her friends called on saturday, saying that she and a friend were bringing some food over. This friend had mentioned to me previously that she had a gay friend. So just as soon as he got out of the car, I was pretty sure this was the guy. Now they came over to visit my wife, normally when Filipinos get together they will switch to their own language and talk away. This time they stayed in English, and most of the conversation was between him and me, he was all interested in my immediate family. He also wanted to check out my computer, and offered me a monitor that he was not using any more.

To help you guys understand this, I haven't talked about this but my wife is about twenty eight years older than me, and I haven't had sex with her in about twelve years. Also about three weeks before this I had talked to my wife's friend about being molested as a kid. So this is where the paranoia homophobic feelings come in. I am thinking that she is trying to determine if I am gay, by having her friend check me out. Why she would want to do this I don't know but that is my feeling.
Click to expand...
I talked to her, very briefly this Sunday, she did say that was her gay friend. I did not have time to ask if there was anything behind it.

A thought, it may be that I had the reaction, just because he was a gay man that was a stranger. The reason I say that is I gathered up my courage today and called my old friend, and went out for coffee and had another long talk, still no alarms went off.
Click to expand...
 
Brothers,

I dont wish to blame anyone here for being homophobic. I think that in a place like this it is essential that everyone feel welcome to express their feelings and emotions about their past. I know that in my case I dreaded for years the possibiliity that what happened to me would make me a "queer". I think its great that heterosexual brothers feel that here they can come to terms with these fears about homosexuality, and I admire and respect our gay brothers for the way they accommodate and tolerate these discussions without taking them as a personal affront or threat. It just goes to show that a place like this really can work. I respect and admire you all for this.

But let us also be clear about the realities of what we are talking about. If I discover that my friend x is gay, that makes him no more a threat to me sexually (or any other way) than if I discover he has blue eyes. It really is just as simple as that. As a heterosexual I know I didnt choose this "lifestyle", if that is what it is. I just am who I am. By what right do I refuse the same consideration to my gay friends? By what right do we challenge gays to justify who they are and how they live? If I know that I am who I am and that's it, on what basis do I reject the right of gay brothers to be who they are, without reservation, question or justification?

The reasons are of course easy to find, but they are all part of the structures of macho straight hypocrisy that is so harmful to us as men in so many other ways. How many of us have been harmed for years by anxieties that as "real men" we should not cry or fear or feel weak or vulnerable? That is the same nonsense that leads us to run for cover and avoid getting to know a guy because "he's a fag". That is the great danger and evil of hypocrisy: it presents itself in the garb of righteous truth and urges us to accept it and remain blind to what it really is.

I myself didn't get past all this through any particular insight or wisdom of my own, that I want to stress in big capital letters. I was taught. I lived for a year with a great friend who was gay and coming out in a hostile world, and through exposure to his pain and hurt on a daily basis I came to see the great harm of the prejudices he faced.

I know there may be those of us who have fears of gays for whatever reasons relating to our past. And some may have doubts on religious grounds. Fine. But those are our issues, and it is our task to deal with them, not the job of our gay brothers. That is the one single message that I would like to pick out and highlight on this thread.

The simple truth is that none of us can claim the right to our own personality, dignity and individuality when that same right is denied to others. But as we all know, simple truths can quickly become very complicated. I am happy to see this particular truth being exposed for what is it and acknowledged in this thread.

Love to all,
Larry
 
Hi all, I am just bumping this up, I thought one of the new guys needed to read it.

But while it is up, the male of the SA couple, did embrace me. While I can't say it was great, I didn't have any screaming fits ether. So that may be called progress I suppose.

Take care,
Clifford
 
one of the things that really gets to me is the double standard i have in regards to other men. i never feel at home with a man present and GOD forbid he shoule touch me and the christian hug makes me freeze unable to move or breath. i have gotten to be able to shake hands and breath when hugged but heres the kicker, onece i can breath again (sooner and sooner) it is in this group i long to be with GODly men safe and secure
whats up with that?
 
The nature of my abuse involved a homosexual element (I suppose you could say). Of course, there was no "heterosexuality/homosexuality" categorization in my brain at that point; there was just "sex stuff". Then I ended up in junior high, where gay (or an associated epithet) is just about the worst thing anybody can call you, and I was very concerned about myself. I would attempt to prove I was straight and "macho" - not to the other boys, of course, as their approval didn't make a difference to me - but to myself. I would do things that one wouldn't imagine a stereotypical "gay man" doing. I learned how to fix cars, I got into hunting for a while. I got myself hurt doing all manner of really stupid things. That sort of thing.

Eventually my brain solidified and I grew (kicking and screaming) out of that whole childish homophobia stage. I stiffen up and withdraw, given the chance, from hugs and other such contact, but from women just as much as men. I'm a hand shaker. :)
 
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