over helpful/loving/giving

over helpful/loving/giving
M

mickie

Registrant
I am a newbie to this board but not to the subject matter. In relationship with a survivor who hasn't had therapy. I have been so giving, loving and helpful, even directed him to this board, and gave him Lew's book. He has been pulling away and saying he needs space from me. Upon reflection and reading Allies in Healing and reading posts here, I can see how I have over done it and probably have driven him nuts and away. I feel awful. I gave gifts cause I love to give gift to close friends, I love to be helpful but I wasn't listening to all the clues that were being sent my way. I screwed up and sit here crying. I didn't mean to over do it. I just see so much uptapped potential in this beautiful human being, so gifted. I wanted to help make it all better. Is there any thing I could/should be doing? It is very hard to give people you love the space they need when you enjoy their company. Please feel free to send response directly to the private message area if you so choose. I didn't mean to be a hinderance to healing....
Mickie
 
mickie,
don't worry, there is no hinderance to healing here on the forum...time lag, yes, at least in our way of thinkng sometimes :) . first, you need to give yourself some space to see that while there may have been a tactical error in the amount of what you did, there was no way of knowing that you were going as far as you did except in hindsight, or if your survivor partner informed you earlier. you need to give yourself some credit here for doing what you thought was right. partners step on each other's space all the time, even without recovery issues. the key is to acknowledge two things: the crossed boundary, and the fact that you could not have known till you were informed. you did nothing wrong because you did not know. this does not mean that his boundary was not crossed, it simply means you did not do this intentionally. if, on the other hand, you pursued this in the attempt to change him or force him into something that suited your vision alone, then there would be serious culpability here. you did not do that, though. you gave what you did in good faith, with no strings attached. now that you do know, it is your responsibility to respect those boundaries while still respecting your own needs as well. this does not give him the license to do as he wishes and disregard your needs or boundaries. ask him to define the space he needs. be kind to yourself, mickie. you did the best you could with no other intent than to help. it was too much for him to handle, true, but you did nothing wrong. ask him to explain what his comfort level would be regarding this. i suggest a neutral time and/or place when there is no immediate issue at hand to discuss this so there would be no association with the disclosure he gave you on this being overwhelming for him. you have a right to be treated with dignity and respect, remember that. and he does have a right to appropriate space, which is defined differently by each one of us. thing is, it cannot conflict with the normal responsibilities to each other (not treating each other with blatant disrespect, etc). pm me if you have any questions, or just want to vent.
 
mickie,

Take theo's advice... try not to beat yourself up over mistakes you didn't know you were making. It's important to communicate to the one you've hurt not only that you know you made a mistake and you're sorry, but that you're willing to work hard not to make those mistakes again. That means giving him space physically if he asks for it, but it also means giving him some mental space. If he wants a break from thinking about his problems or just a chance to solve them on his own, show him that you can hang out with him without it turning into therapy.

From the outside it's easy to see the untapped potential. And believe me, I know how frustrating it is to see. But think for a minute what it would mean to hear, over and over again, that you're full of untapped potential and giftedness. In a way it sounds like you're not good enough. Maybe he'd like to hear how far he's come already, or feel appreciated just the way he is today. I mean we all like hearing that ;)

We can't be 100% giving, loving, and helpful all the time without doing ourselves a disservice. You're not being a hindrance to anyone's healing by giving yourself some room for error--in fact you're doing the opposite.

Take care, and welcome.
SAR
 
Mickie
you haven't really screwed up - most of us Survivors wouldn't recognise a 'boundary' ( in the early days - or prior to - recovery ) if it hit us in the face !

We make boundaries up to suit ourselves as we drift along, often we make them up and change them to keep 'you' at arms length.
We're scared of letting people in, no matter how much love is between us, we resist.
Why ? because we 'know' what happens when people get close - they betray us and leave us.

Or at least that's a common perception of Survivors towards those who care about us, we have to learn to trust again.

Keep loving and supporting him, be gentle in your 'helpful suggestions', let him learn to trust himself with his own judgements, then he'll begin to trust yours.

Take care, and ask whatever you want here because we're here to help.

Dave
 
I've learned how to "empathetically feel his emotional states" when he is at those times willing to talk about what happened. This takes a LOT of practice and learning to LISTEN to not just what they are saying - but what they are not saying.

What has worked to provide an environment for my mate to feel comfortable to dig deeper in his memories are my always letting him know that I will never ask. I will always listen and if he needs an opinion from outside of himself that he lets me know - and then I am neutral regardless of if the content is difficult or not.

I know that he is dependent - and at first - whether or not the best therapists think this is true or not - is the need for some continued behavior patterns to remain during their process of healing - so that they don't get hit with brick walls that shatter their being - like being hog tied by a cowboy.

Survivors need small doses to learn to trust again.
Here is an analogy
an animal analogy but a pretty good one on trust)

If you have ever heard of John Lyons - he's a horse "whisperer" out of Colorado. Pretty famous and one of the best horse trainers to ever understand the deep motivations of the horse and it's being.


(*************Trigger warning*************)

Anyway, my uncle had a mare (mommy horse) who gave birth on the open range to her foal. It was mid January and two feet of snow on the ground. The mare was pretty much an old hag (at least 18 years old) and had been pasture bred repeatedly(raped) by my uncles stallion. "That's how the old west was" he would say (yuck)....

So, this mare when she gave birth was still ranging with the pack of horses - including the stallions (which chased and tried to breed her throughout her pregnancy) ... this is where it changes ... I know this seems like a story about the mare but its not - it's about the foal.

The foal (a little reddish brown filly)hit the ground - 2 feet of snow, the mare was old and tired obviously of caring over and over again for babies every year (and being raped) the stallions were attempting to chase her at the time she gave birth, so inadvertently (or maybe knowingly) the mare kicked several times while she was birthing (sometimes this is flight response to being chased - to shed the "baggage" so they can run away).

She kicked the foal in the head twice and left it for dead - while the stallions continued to chase her around.

This foal needed breast milk (colustorum) within the first 3 hours of birth or it dies) We couldn't catch the mare and to make matters worse the injury to the filly was so bad that her little tounge was hanging out the side of her mouth and would not go back in. Her eyes were affected - slightly crossed - and she could not be coaxed up on her feet after several hours of trying.

The filly got vet attention and we nursed her back to health for 3 days but the mare disowned the filly probably because her tounge didn't go back into her mouth for over a year and the horses were all mesmerized by this "being". SHe also walked with her head tilted sideways (crossed eyes) so she could see. (All of these things went away within the first year of her life)

(****************end trigger***************)


Now the filly instinctively new it's mother - and it was raised (yes in the same pasture with the same horses running together) and she was lucky enough to be adopted by a maiden mare. But the filly still had serious issues with her surroundings. DID NOT like people OR other horses and as she got older - we had to try and get close to her to train her.

My uncle had several "cowboys" and others attempt to "catch" her. They were rough and it did not work.

I knew about John Lyons and I attempted to use this with her to gain her trust.

"Approach and Retreat" is the method of gaining trust in horses" approach until you sense the slightest bit of uncomfortableness - and then turn away and (or) back off until the next day or until they seems calm again.

My first attempt - I got 25 feet close to her.

Sevral days later after trying every day - I was able to (by walking backwards toward her and then slowly turning to face her) (hope you can understand the metephor in this)

She finally understood that I wasn't going to eat her for lunch - and that I just wanted to touch her soft nose, the next day I rubbed her forehead between her eyes, then next - her ears and then her back, legs and belly. by 7 days later I was literally bending over the top of her and leaning on her and she was TRUSTING !!!

Anyway - sorry that story was a little long but it shows in detail the amount of time that has to be invested - in being patient and never pushing too hard. Trust builds so slowly when someone or animal has been traumatized.

It was a beautiful experience and I suggest if anyone ever has the chance to attempt this to do it.

HG
 
Mickie you did the right thing - he is not pulling away form you but it is the type of behaviour that is often seen by partners of survivors when a survivor starts to go into the abuse issue.. my partner does it all the time. He did it more when he started group therapy for SA about 8 months ago.

Its a scary thing but it happens to all of us. Your partner is probably reacting to the pain that these books/this info. is digging up, and not to you.. However, be aware if he is going to get into this stuff more than he may pull away at times when he is especially hurting, and as he dives deeper into the abuse, particularly if he has not had therapy, he may do it more.

DO NOT let it scare you (I know I know easier said than done) but do NOT take it personally - it is NOT about you but about him, and dont let anyone make you feel that it is your fault.

With respect to wanting to help your partner - be very careful that you do not take the place of a therapist. I have been with partners who have refused therapy and they used me for their main outlet. It is a tiring, wearying job, and it ruined our relationship. At the end of the day, saving our partners is NOT our job. It is our job to try and have as healthy and productive a relationship as possible, including a healthy and safe space to be "oneself", a time for fun, a time for personal growth, building a family, spending time playing, or whatever relationship goals you have in common, but it is NOT our job to save our partners. That is the job of the professional. I dont like to spend more than about 10-15% of my time with my partner talking about SA and other abuse issues, it has to be done but it is such a heavy topic it just does not leave any room for the lighter things in life, which we all need especially when we are going through a difficult experience. I think we build a better relationship by going biking, cooking dinner, playing trivia, etc than spending all our time talking about SA.

I have to give my partner credit he also is very careful about protecting our relaitonship - tends to focus his problems and working them through with his T and his group and in his journal. He keeps me "in the loop" about why he is acting a particular way, and what is going on with him, but as far as fixing his problems, that really is IS business, and I prefer to keep it that way. I have my own abuse crap to work through and a life to try and build!

If you have a copy of Dr. Phil's book "relationship rescue" one of his common phrases is "dont build a relationship on problems - if you do that they you'll have a relationship FULL of problems".
 
With respect to wanting to help your partner - be very careful that you do not take the place of a therapist. I have been with partners who have refused therapy and they used me for their main outlet. It is a tiring, wearying job, and it ruined our relationship. At the end of the day, saving our partners is NOT our job. It is our job to try and have as healthy and productive a relationship as possible,
Click to expand...
As far as 'partners' are concerned this is the truth!
As a Survivor I don't always see and recognise this, but the more I heal the better I get. In the early days I did rely on my wife a lot - too much I think, but we got through.
Perhaps the bout of depression she had about 18 months back was the result of my 'dependance' ?
As PAS mentions - I try to keep my talking about my abuse down to certain times and places, and not let it dominate our lives, although there are times when the subject crops up naturally and we talk about it. But we should never let it become the sole topic of conversation, we all deserve to chill out sometimes.

HollyG
I love your analogy to the horse whisperer, it makes so much sense to go in gently and earn that trust. Like the rejected foal we can feel unloved.

Dave
 
Thank you all for your thoughtful insights and encouraging words. I feel much better and am going to be more intenational about being sensitive to the fact that what I say or do might not be helpful.

I will keep you posted! I thank God you all are here.

mickie
 
I sent you a private message, as your story was so similar to mine, it almost felt like I was reading my own post (check out a few off mine), anyways, all I can say, is that when they dont want help, sometimes when you try really hard to help and they are not ready, they push you away. Well, I cant speak for all, only speaking in my specific case. all the best.
 
this was a section cut out of the question I asked the other day, gifts arent taken well by my boyfriend, kindness isnt either at times, sometimes I do more harm than good by my giving and kindess and trying to understand, its hard to know what to do. I understand.
"He said every gift comes around in circles, if he gets a gift, it will come back to bite him in the ass. He said no gift is ever a gift, always wanting something in return. He feels so overwhelmed, and affection feels like someone is poking and proding him, and he kept poking me in the arm over and over when mad to imitate how he feels when I get to touchy feely. After I just hugged him, and he hugged me back, and he said just a bad day at work. I dont know if this is a couincidence, but these arguements usually occur a few days after sex, almost like he feels used or something. Anyways, can anyone give me advise on how I can let him know that I give because I care for him, not to get something in return? "
 
Originally posted by Angelina:
"He said every gift comes around in circles, if he gets a gift, it will come back to bite him in the ass. He said no gift is ever a gift, always wanting something in return. He feels so overwhelmed, and affection feels like someone is poking and proding him, and he kept poking me in the arm over and over when mad to imitate how he feels when I get to touchy feely.
Click to expand...


Maybe with time being with you he will see that there are no strings attached? May take some time to see that the way you operate with him is much different. Will take some time though.


After I just hugged him, and he hugged me back, and he said just a bad day at work. I dont know if this is a couincidence, but these arguements usually occur a few days after sex, almost like he feels used or something.
Click to expand...


This happens to me as well. We go on a really good spell, start to get closer, start having sex (or more sex) and then boom the whole distancing routine starts again, then no sex for weeks or months. I have recently pointed this out to my partner and I did not know how to broach it.. I just asked him a) do you want to have a more "normal" sex life - is that one of your personal goals - to which he replied "yes" and then I asked b) do you think our sex life is good right now - thankfully he replied "no" and then I c) pointed out to him that I think there may be a correlation between our arguments/distancing and sex.. he thought about it and did not dismiss it, said it was something he would look at and he never thought about it before.


Anyways, can anyone give me advise on how I can let him know that I give because I care for him, not to get something in return? "
Click to expand...
What I said before - keep telling him that you are there for him, that you are not expecting anything in return, that its OK for people to want to give gifts/do nice things for people and that you want to show him that it is not a scary thing, and then be sure to back up what you are saying with actions - give a gift/do nice things and then give him space, teach him that this is a safe experience with you. It will require some "coming and going" on your part - to give him space when the gift giving/nice treatment happens and allow his anxiety to lower, but I think this is something that over the long term he may really learn to trust that you are for real.

P
 
Holly, that is an amazing story and right on!!

That is exactly what its like. In addition, I would say that we are very much like the foal in another respect in that we sometimes dont even know we are hurt inside and need help.

I never forgot what happened to me when I was little, and yet I was absolutely sure that all my problems as an adult had NOTHING to do with my SA. It took me 32 years to figure out otherwise.

I met a guy once that was abused and when I asked him if he was getting help, he said no and that he didnt need therapy.

I asked him How many times have you been married?

Ah, twice.

I said, Yeah, and what about alcohol, you have a problem with that?

Yeah, a little. But I dont need therapy, Im fine.

Holly, thank you so much for posting that story it is the perfect way to express the whole trust issue.

Curtis
 
Hi - I received an email today that said: "Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing." (Proverbs 12:18) I think it is the same with actions. They can heal or they can hurt. Unfortunately, even generally positive actions can hurt a survivor because they can have a different meaning than what is generally accepted.

So, there needs to be a bit of understanding and willingness to communicate meaning on both sides - not always an easy task. The hardest for me are the mixed, push-pull messages that can go either way and can be used both ways by a survivor depending on the mood that strikes at the moment. It is a wild process with a lot of pitfalls.

Take care and do not beat yourself too much. We all have a frightened part in us that needs restoring. Not all is in vain as long as we are trying to do better each time.
 
I like the skittish horse analogy, and I've had a similar sort of image of my friend as a deer that bolts at the slightest wrong move. But I also wonder that if we use this approach toward the survivors that we love, wouldn't this seem to them like they were being "groomed" - and maybe make things worse?
 
DF - I struggle with that issue exactly. My BF is older than me and I have a tough time thinking I need to manipulate him like that. That is what it feels like to me. Like playing games with a grown man. Well, supposedly grown. The pish-pull behavior makes me wonder.
 
Df, SeeingMe, I understand your anxiety about manipulation and game playing.

Holly's analogy does a good job of illustrating the difficulty, the dedication and patience, that it takes to earn trust. And we do all need healing sometimes. But while that can be the end of the story for a trainer and a horse, it's not the end of the story for two people trying to have any kind of meaningful, equal relationship.

Whether we like it or not, there is an aspect of dominance and power caught up in relationships, and behavior, "designed" to teach something or "get" something. The fact that we can choose (like holly did in her story) NOT to use that power to cross someone's boundaries or coerce someone, doesn't mean that we give up this power-- that's exactly why hurt people have trouble with intimate relationships.

If you base a whole relationship on this kind of trainer/ teacher/ therapist dynamic, it will need major reworking to become an equal relationship, because equality only comes into the picture when both parties have power and influence, independent of one another's guidance. I think that Seeing Me is thinking here of how our calculated actions can unintentionally rob someone else of power:
there needs to be a bit of understanding and willingness to communicate meaning on both sides
Click to expand...
If I'm the one who backs off every time, or patiently "interprets" his words every time he says something hurtful, and my boyfriend never has to say to me "No, you're wrong, this is what I meant," or "This is what I need from you right now," then will he be able to say it to me when he needs to? And how will I react? I can say that we have an equal relationship and that we are both allowed to say and do whatever we want, but if he never actually exercises his power to say what he means, then how real is that power? Aren't my actions taking that power out of his hands?

And if we're really talking about a mutually loving and beneficial relationship, then why do I even want all of that power? If I'm so concerned about approaches and techniques, is that because there isn't much under the approaches and techniques? If he's not asserting his own power in the relationship, and would rather stay vulnerable and dependent, then what kind of a relationship does he want with me?

I'm not asking these questions because I think they specifically apply to anyone here. I'm just putting them out there because it IS possible to appear, or even to be, manipulative and dominating when you come into an encounter with a "game plan," or with preconceived or judgmental ideas about what's best for someone else. That's true about all sorts of encounters, not just friendships.

SAR
 
And if we're really talking about a mutually loving and beneficial relationship, then why do I even want all of that power? If I'm so concerned about approaches and techniques, is that because there isn't much under the approaches and techniques? If he's not asserting his own power in the relationship, and would rather stay vulnerable and dependent, then what kind of a relationship does he want with me?

I'm not asking these questions because I think they specifically apply to anyone here. I'm just putting them out there because it IS possible to appear, or even to be, manipulative and dominating when you come into an encounter with a "game plan," or with preconceived or judgmental ideas about what's best for someone else. That's true about all sorts of encounters, not just friendships.
Click to expand...
This happens ALL the time in my relationship - a few weeks ago I told C that I think he is putting me in a power position in the relationship - one that I dont want, need or deserve. I told him that I want our relationship to be equal, neither of us "higher" or more powerful than the other. That we're two cooperating equals. I dont like it when he puts me in that poweful position - as long as he looks at me as someone who has power over him then he's always going to feel like a child or a victim and be reactive and angry and want to challenge me on everything. I dont want to have that kind of power - then the dynamic feels almost mother-child and its the last thing I want to feel in this relationship doesnt make me physically attracted to him for one thing. Ew gross! Not into the Oedipus thing thanks. And I dont want to have the reverse either - where I feel like the child and he's the parent.

I think this is all part of the "victim entitlement syndrome" - I heard that phrase in a video I saw at work for "creating a respectful workplace" - as long as someone is perceiving themselves to be a victim then they feel powerless and can justify saying and doing a lot of stuff because they are (or perceived to be) a victim. This happens a lot in my workplace - a lot of people think my particular work group is in a powerful position (why they think that I'm not sure) so we get a LOT of friction from another regional agency.

I was thinking the other day about this whole human dynamic (which I do a lot as it really affects a lot of aspects of my life - my family of origin, current relationship with C and my workplace) and how often you see it - if you look at a lot of really big tyrants and dictators in past history they REALLY had the big "victim" entitlement syndrome taken to the ultimate extreme. Ok those are total extreme examples of this whole syndrome and most people dont go beyond picking fights with friends, family and coworkers, but the dictator example is a good one of just how far people CAN go to justify their behaviour because they feel victimized.

You are right if the person you are dealing with perceives themselves to be powerless or a victim it does not matter what we do they will try to fight you every step of the way. They are not looking at you or themselves as an equal, but always as a power struggle that they must win at all costs.

Until that person somehow starts to view themselves as powerful, important, and equal then the dynamics will change. Until then you can try and accommodate until you are blue in the face but there is nothing you can do.

Its hard to play TO that kind of victim-mentality - trying to second, third, fourth, fifth guess what depressed and low mental state that person is in and try to twist your behaviour to fit that so you dont get them angry.. its a losing game and if you have to do it for too long you will feel like you are losing your grip on reality.

Its better to just go about your business and deal with whatever friction you get.. its hard to try and follow that, to predict their moods, because sometimes it does not matter what you do or say they will always find something to reinforce their victim mentality. I get that at work all the time and with my dad its so exhausting and trying... phuck. I'm glad I wrote this today because I have been in that second guessing mode for a long time at work and maybe I needed to write this as my own personal pep talk.
 
And if we're really talking about a mutually loving and beneficial relationship, then why do I even want all of that power? If I'm so concerned about approaches and techniques, is that because there isn't much under the approaches and techniques? If he's not asserting his own power in the relationship, and would rather stay vulnerable and dependent, then what kind of a relationship does he want with me?

I'm not asking these questions because I think they specifically apply to anyone here. I'm just putting them out there because it IS possible to appear, or even to be, manipulative and dominating when you come into an encounter with a "game plan," or with preconceived or judgmental ideas about what's best for someone else. That's true about all sorts of encounters, not just friendships.
Click to expand...
This happens ALL the time in my relationship - a few weeks ago I told C that I think he is putting me in a power position in the relationship - one that I dont want, need or deserve. I told him that I want our relationship to be equal, neither of us "higher" or more powerful than the other. That we're two cooperating equals. I dont like it when he puts me in that poweful position - as long as he looks at me as someone who has power over him then he's always going to feel like a child or a victim and be reactive and angry and want to challenge me on everything. I dont want to have that kind of power - then the dynamic feels almost mother-child and its the last thing I want to feel in this relationship doesnt make me physically attracted to him for one thing. Ew gross! Not into the Oedipus thing thanks. And I dont want to have the reverse either - where I feel like the child and he's the parent.

I think this is all part of the "victim entitlement syndrome" - I heard that phrase in a video I saw at work for "creating a respectful workplace" - as long as someone is perceiving themselves to be a victim then they feel powerless and can justify saying and doing a lot of stuff because they are (or perceived to be) a victim. This happens a lot in my workplace - a lot of people think my particular work group is in a powerful position (why they think that I'm not sure) so we get a LOT of friction from another regional agency.

I was thinking the other day about this whole human dynamic (which I do a lot as it really affects a lot of aspects of my life - my family of origin, current relationship with C and my workplace) and how often you see it - if you look at a lot of really big tyrants, dictators, and terrorists they REALLY had/have the big "victim" entitlement syndrome taken to the ultimate extreme. Ok those are total extreme examples of this whole syndrome and most people dont go beyond picking fights with friends, family and coworkers, but the dictator example is a good one of just how far people CAN go to justify their behaviour because they feel victimized - you dont have to look much beyond 9-11 to see the victim mentality taken to the ULTIMATE extreme.

You are right if the person you are dealing with perceives themselves to be powerless or a victim it does not matter what we do they will try to fight you every step of the way. They are not looking at you or themselves as an equal, but always as a power struggle that they must win at all costs.

Until that person somehow starts to view themselves as powerful, important, and equal then the dynamics will change. Until then you can try and accommodate until you are blue in the face but there is nothing you can do.

Its hard to play TO that kind of victim-mentality - trying to second, third, fourth, fifth guess what depressed and low mental state that person is in and try to twist your behaviour to fit that so you dont get them angry.. its a losing game and if you have to do it for too long you will feel like you are losing your grip on reality.

Its better to just go about your business and deal with whatever friction you get.. its hard to try and follow that, to predict their moods, because sometimes it does not matter what you do or say they will always find something to reinforce their victim mentality. I get that at work all the time and with my dad its so exhausting and trying... phuck. I'm glad I wrote this today because I have been in that second guessing mode for a long time at work and maybe I needed to write this as my own personal pep talk. [/qb][/QUOTE]
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top