Not completely sure of what to do.

[MikeNY]

As some people here know, I met a survivor who has become part of my life. I have taken steps by being straight forward and honest about everything in an attempt to try to ensure that we did not end up with any form of dependency upon each other. It worked, we don't. We have been completely successful in not creating that type of bad relationship between us. Unfortunately, a different form of bad relationship seems to have formed. We have talked about and made boundaries which neither of us has been willing to budge on. Unfortunately, our boundaries overlap each others, and have caused some problems. This person is also repeatedly placing me into no-win situations, has unrealistic expectations which cross my stated boundaries, and is repeatedly using false logic. They have also taken to listening to "tapes" during all communications. Everything that I say or do is met with defensive responses. They have even become belittling and actually abusive at times. I have tried to speak with this person about things, we have talked about various things which would be helpful to both of us. The person sees and knows that they are doing these things any time that I point them out to them. When I have tried to talk about the important issues at hand, I hit a brick wall of refused communication. When I point out how they are placing me into the no-win situations or how they have crossed my boundaries which we have talked about, they basically tell me that if I don't like it, tough. I care about this person. This person also basically has nobody in their life. They have removed people from their life repeatedly because of self-defeating behavior and unrealistic expectations brought about by placing others into no-win situations and using false logic to justify how they were treated badly. This person is dissociating in many ways. They have DID, and they have shut down half of all communication, both with themselves and with others. When I talk with them, all they hear is the tapes of the mental abuse which they went through. If I say something that is relative to a converstaion but simple, I am told that I don't need to state the obvious and that I am being condescending and treating them like they are stupid. If I do not give the details of the smaller, less important, more obvious parts of things while we are talking, I am told that I can't just make statements without supporting them and expect them to just be accepted and expect them to be palatable. If I say something that is more complicated during an intelligent conversation, they are intimidated by the intelligence, become defensive, call me names, tell me that I am belittling and make them feel invisible and other such things. It has gotten to the point where this person does nothing but place me into no-win situations where they see and hear everything which I do as a "tape" of their abuse. We separate completely for extended periods of time, then they come to me wanting help, advice, and other things. Within a short time period, it becomes all of the same stuff over again. I like this person. I respect this person. There are many times in which I have been proud of this person. We have many of the same beliefs and have many things in common. I have never met someone who I have so many things in common with before in my life. I care about this person. I want to be there for them. I want to help them. I am reaching my limits of how much I am willing to allow myself to be hurt, and in all actuallity, abused, to do those things. I am about to give them what part of them wants, me leaving their life forever so that they can justify how I must not actually care about them.

 

[PAS]

Originally posted by MikeNY:
Unfortunately, a different form of bad relationship seems to have formed. We have talked about and made boundaries which neither of us has been willing to budge on. Unfortunately, our boundaries overlap each others, and have caused some problems. This person is also repeatedly placing me into no-win situations, has unrealistic expectations which cross my stated boundaries, and is repeatedly using false logic. They have also taken to listening to "tapes" during all communications. Everything that I say or do is met with defensive responses. They have even become belittling and actually abusive at times. I have tried to speak with this person about things, we have talked about various things which would be helpful to both of us. The person sees and knows that they are doing these things any time that I point them out to them. When I have tried to talk about the important issues at hand, I hit a brick wall of refused communication. When I point out how they are placing me into the no-win situations or how they have crossed my boundaries which we have talked about, they basically tell me that if I don't like it, tough.

*stuff snipped*

I am about to give them what part of them wants, me leaving their life forever so that they can justify how I must not actually care about them.

Mike this sounds like a tough situation. From what you are saying it sounds like you are really trying to stay calm and grounded even when being rattled by someone's false logic and illogical "emotionality".

I have found that when I start to deal with someone who's using that really weird, odd, highly emotional "illogic", its sometimes just not possible to have any kind of meaningful discussion with them when they're in that state. I can try and try to state and reassert my boundaries but they are so illogical that its just not going to work.

And sometimes I have also been on the "other side" myself in the place of being highly emotional and illogical. I can tell you that when I'm in that state there's no way I'll want to reason with the person whos being reasonable. I'm just looking to blow off emotional steam and I'll keep the argument and tension going as long as I need to "get it out"... I guess its a pretty immature way to "keep someone at bay" when I'm threatned, and I admit that I do this sometimes even in my own relatonship. It must drive my partner as batty as when he does it to me.

I have recently learned, however, that sometimes, telling irrational people what you want or need does not work and sometimes you have to "up the ante" and show them. Sometimes no matter how grounded or logical my requests or statements are, they just "want to fight" for whatever reason. At that point I just have no choice but to say "you are not going to egg me into a fight and obviously you are not in a position to listen to what I have to say" and stop the conversatoin and temporarily walk away.

It is tough for me to have to walk away because I also have this "abandonment complex" eating away at me ("What if they hate me forever and I totally lose a friend by saying this??"). My abandonment complex is always doing an inner battle with my inner need to stand up for myself and demand to be treated with the respect I deserve. Its a tough and freaky mental place to be.

In your case, if you do have to give this friend a break, there is no guarantee that you will have to walk away from this person permanently.. when the "illogic" gets too much and you feel yourself starting to get angry maybe you have to take a "temporary walk" sometimes? I cant say what you have and haven't done, of course. And if you have alredy tried this, then disregard this suggestion.

But if not, maybe over time, with this type of stronger reinforcement, this person will start to learn that he can only interact with you when he is in an "adult place". Maybe that will be a better solution than totally walking away from this person permamently?

Remember if you do have to walk away, eventually, from this person permanently to keep your own sanity there's no shame in that. I can tell by the detail and the length of your post that you really DO care about this person, and you really have tried to go to great lengths to work this out, that this situation is paining you and you just had no choice but to go and protect yourself and leave that person be.

Relationships of all kinds - friendships and romantic relationships require TWO functional and mature and respectful people. You can only do so much to hold on to that person if that person is not holidng up their end of the bargain.

You deserve better.

P

 

[Dan88]

Mike
I'm sorry to hear that you're in this spot. I don't happen to think that anyone should get a pass on abusive behavior. If someone is treating me abusively they are telling me that they want me out of their life, at least for a time out. I know that's a very tough stance to take, but I don't see how I can respect myself and at the same time let someone treat me without respect.

That said, I don't think these things have to be all or nothing. I have a very good friend with whom I share a relationship that is somewhat like you describe. It caused us a fair amount of arguments. But we have found a solution. As she grows more irresponsible and irrational, I simply back off and give her space. And when she is feeling better, she makes contact again. Obviously it's somewhat unbalanced, but it's the best we will have. The sad part of it is that we are not really able to support each other as friends might. Because of these "break-ups" we see each other when time allows. But I finally concluded that I do want this person as a friend and will accept this start and stop friendship as a fact of life. And she concluded that she wants to be my friend, and therefore can not use me as her whipping post but will have to distance herself from time to time when she is in a moody stage.

 

[MikeNY]

Thank you for your responses. Dan, unfortunately, I don't look at it the same way that you mentioned. When someone is treating me with abusive behavior, I feel that I am far better off without that person in my life, at all.

 

[FastForward]

Hi,

There is a point in this type of a relationship that words an actions have to coincide or boundaries are broken. When a request is made, it ought to be honored. When a promise is made it ought to be kept.

I think all the comments above assess the situation accurately.

For my two cents, if someone has spent his life forcing people out then it is pretty easy to predict your fate in this relationship. So maybe the question is how much hurt do you want to experience on the way out.

Of course, I understand the concern for the survivor and only you can tell if in all this "maddness" there are any, however tiny, rays of hope of positive change. Here again, is positive change even a priority for this person? Or is forcing people out the ultimate goal?

But personally I would protect my own essential boundaries first.

Best of luck!

 

[Lloydy]

Mike
as I read down the posts I was thinking along this line -

For my two cents, if someone has spent his life forcing people out then it is pretty easy to predict your fate in this relationship. So maybe the question is how much hurt do you want to experience on the way out.

but FastForward beat me to it.

If someone is constantly battling against you, no matter how hard you try you'll reach a point where you just can't take any more.

It's obvious that you do care about this person, as PAS also points out, which makes 'logical' thoughts a bit more difficult as emotional issues come into play. But there comes a point when the battle outweighs the emotion, and instead of moving on with your emotions in some semblance of order, they're wrecked.
And YOU NEED your emotions to further your own healing.

My view is that at least you need some distance and a more rigid setting of boundaries, but is that realistic?
Call for "time out" and weigh your options Mike, I've always said that healing from SA is a selfish business in as much as we should put our emotional welfare at the top of our list of our priorities.
I'm not talking about being selfish in a nasty and mean manner, just, for a while, putting ourselves first.

Dave

 

[SAR]

MikeNY

I wonder about your "boundaries" with this person, the first red flag shot up for me when I saw this:

We have talked about and made boundaries which neither of us has been willing to budge on. Unfortunately, our boundaries overlap each others, and have caused some problems.

At the risk of sounding like a word nerd...

Boundary means "something that indicates or fixes a limit or extent." Setting boundaries for ourselves just means that first we "fix" the spots in our mind where something shifts from acceptable to unacceptable, and then, we do something to indicate that spot to others. If needed, you can later reinforce or further indicate your boundaries. That is about all you can expect from setting boundaries. And you can only set them for yourself. It is just like a fence, your neighbor can't go put up a fence on your property. And if they do, you have every right to knock it down.

I have a hard time seeing how your boundaries can overlap each other, since yours are in your brain and only indicate what you find acceptable and unacceptable to you, and the same for your friend. I think maybe the two of you have set goals for the relationship that you find yourselves unable to meet, but that is not always the same thing as crossing boundaries.

That being said, the conversation-stopping trick you describe is very familiar to me, instead of hearing all of what you're saying this person wants to go off-topic and start a stupid, smaller fight about a couple of words. It is exceptionally frustrating. I have found that you have to just call it out and refuse to start the mini-conversation, just say "That's not what I'm really talking about"... and understand that for some people that kind of trick is a way to signal that they are uncomfortable and would like to stop talking.

In my opinion, being the healthiest MikeNY you can be, especially when around and with this person, is the best thing you can do to help and your best bet if you want a healthy version of this person in your life one day. People are attracted to what they want to be. If she (?) wants to be unhealthy and abusive/accepting of abuse, she will be attracted to that part of you. If/when your friend wants to erase the old tapes, no longer abuse and be abused, she will seek out people who want and have achieved that.