Non-binary Gender: A contemplation:

Non-binary Gender: A contemplation:

Acorn2Oak

Registrant

[For the record, though I am trying to be respectful, I may inadvertently say things here that others find offensive or politically incorrect. Please know it's surely not my intention to offend. However, in a world where an act of simple, heart-felt kindness can be considered offensive or insulting (WTF?), and as much as I try to avoid conflict of any kind, I can't always predict what will be a touchy subject or terminology to whom. I surely don't know all the rules and etiquette of various social or cultural contexts. This sharing is just part of my self-inquiry and self-discovery and hopefully healing process. I sincerely hope it will be received in that light. If not, please pardon my ignorance. Thank you in advance for your understanding and consideration.]


I just discovered a new term associated with gender identity: Non-binary It's one of many ways of describing gender that seems to fit me. I also read a different, more comprehensive definition of transgender which may also apply. I was inspired to explore after reading someone's recent forum posts regarding the challenge finding suitable support groups. Having experienced the same basic challenge, I could relate. Though the topic was about something else, I appreciate the inadvertent nudge.

In my case, these various definitions, even the discussion itself, is fairly new to me. Finding a place to fit, a place where I feel I belong, is a more or less lifelong (and never entirely satisfactory) quest. It's looked like different things at different times over the years, in and out of a recovery context.

Based on the rather long, impressive list of possible labels, non-binary seems most accurate. I describe myself as a lesbian in a male body. NO offense to lesbians or anyone else. I'm just trying to make sense of myself. It seems having a label I can relate to helps. It's a place to stand, a wall to lean on, a circle within which I may find myself. My T has heard other men refer to their inner lesbian. So that's some comfort though the probability of ever actually discussing such matters face to face with them seems highly unlikely.

Not that I would have the courage to disclose this self-concept to just anyone myself. A current and previous partner, my T, just those I think could relate and accept, or at least able to consider the potential validity, like those on this forum. Though I can appreciate those who are, I could never be an activist type. You won't see me at any rally or parade. I'm certainly not trying to prove any point, stand out, or draw attention to myself. I just want to understand. I want to clarify. I want to make sense of myself and the world I'm in and find a place, if one exists, where I more or less fit. I really just want to relate. Until recently, I've been more or less convinced that no such place exists.

Of course, this entire line of thought also begs the question, is this really about gender identity or consequences of abuse? I certainly never felt I belonged anywhere as a kid. More like a stranger in a strange land, an anomaly, the only one of my kind. Am definitely not alone in that regard.

I am, indeed, a multi-faceted being. From my perspective, there are many me's. Yes, even wondered for a while if I had DID. If so, not by the strictest definition. But I can have an inner child with a name, so why not an inner woman/lesbian? I do and she does. And I adore her. I love the way she feels. Her personality is very different from what I'm used to thinking of as me or what anyone else sees. Maybe this is her introduction, a pre-coming out for someone precious to me. It's kind of a big deal to admit she exists. And yet she, maybe far more than me, deserves a voice. She may be far more functional. She's certainly more vibrant, alive, and expressive when she's up... and with a confident, mischievous streak I admire... and maybe fear a bit. Perhaps she exists much in the same way characters can take on a life of their own in a writer's imagination. And maybe that's still denial of the real situation.

I think people are like jars of marbles: different sizes, colors/shades, blends all representing various traits, talents, interests, beliefs. It's highly unlikely that all my marbles will match all of someone else's. Seems unreasonable to expect that. However, some of mine are bound to match someone's, somewhere. So the question becomes, do I notice ... or admit it? Do they? Do I have enough blue marbles or red or green to match someone in a meaningful way, to matter to someone who has same or complimentary colors? Gotta take that on a case by case basis, I guess.

So, setting aside the question of whether my perspective is influenced by prior abuse, which may or may not be relevant, what does it mean to me to be this non-binary lesbian in a male body? Well, I'm not really sure. If you saw me/us in public you'd probably have to look hard to notice. I wouldn't stand out, just an ordinary guy in ordinary clothes doing ordinary stuff. However, you might also find me the only male body in a circle of women comfortably chatting about girl stuff around a dining table or in a discussion group. (No, I don't generally refer to women as girls.) You would not find me in a bar watching a football game. You wouldn't find me anywhere watching any sports. So if I have to go into what is generally characterized as guy territory, a mechanic shop for example, I have to fake it when they ask if I saw the latest game. I do have what my generation and cultural conditioning generally characterizes as guy interests: gardening and woodworking, for example.

I don't like shopping but I drool over tools like the next guy. And I get off on being the fixer and in my context, am darn good at it. Redneck engineer par excellence! But you won't find me standing around with the guys, belching, farting and scratching my ass, bragging about my newest tools or latest project. You MIGHT find me openly appreciating an attractive woman singer or dancer with a lesbian friend. Like me, at least in my experience, she isn't going to be crude about it.

Being in this male body, I don't often get the chance, but when interacting with lesbian friends, a little butchy to deliciously femme, is when I most wish this body was female about 5'6 to 5'8 and half my current weight. What other chance would I ever have to express what I routinely feel? A tender touch. Sentiment-saturated hand holding. A comforting, friendly hug. To allow that female body to passionately experience and deftly express a symphonic spectrum of exquisite feelings, octaves beyond the stereotypical male's apparent capacity; to be seen, known, and accepted for having such feelings! Heavenly!!! Otherwise, I feel no particular inclination to change this body. This body is not me. It is a vehicle that houses and transports me. My biggest regret is that others with whom I have felt a distinct resonance, others with whom I have sensed great relationship potential in one form or another, are prejudiced by this body and never allow us the chance to get acquainted. Can't say I haven't done the same in some ways but these days, I try to catch myself before those automatic triggers and prejudices take complete control.

Not only am I empathic but highly sensitive as well. If you interact with me personally, you'll find that I tend to hear and process input and express perspectives in an emotion-oriented context. Like often associated with women, I prefer to talk things out, NOT get how to fix it feedback unless I specifically ask (one of my pet peeves is unsolicited advice), and am an excellent listener, emotionally adept with a nimble mind who can be present, compassionate, and understanding.

I tend to avoid interacting with males generally, especially those exhibiting the stereotypical macho traits. Perhaps that's because I find those traits disturbing. Just as likely, it's because they seem unreal to me a mask they don't know they wear, a role they don't know they play. I have a hard time dealing with cognitive dissonance. Yet I can admire (and admit it) the appearance of a male body as easily as a female's. Though what I consider handsome/beautiful may not always fit the standard definition. I don't find myself sexually attracted by appearance anyway but I have no sexual attraction to male bodies, even if I feel a resonance with the people inside them in one way or another. Is that my nature? Or my conditioning? At this point, other matters are more pressing to explore. In my humble opinion, if someone actually feels attracted solely to a body, they are not seeing the person. In which case, I'd argue that what they are feeling isn't really attraction, at least not by my definition.

I find it rather disconcerting that gender identity seems associated with sexual preference. How is it that who one is should be defined by who they want sex with? In my view, this has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with essence or personality. To me, people are people independent of the body we wear. A human mind or its conditioning may associate a particular image, body type, etc., with sexual interest, but for me at least, arousal/ attraction arises from something far deeper, more essential to one's nature and being. Body type and appearance are secondary, though seemingly relevant. I still think it's my own mind's association of physical appearance with some emotional resonance, some fundamental correlation of personality traits, that defines who I think of as attractive.

So here I am, sorta kinda, at least in part, a sometimes confusing, seemingly contradictory collection of traits and interests that perhaps defies true definition. Am I Jay or Gina? Both or neither? Either way, the exploration continues. Someday I may conclude that no definition, no label, is possible or necessary. I am just me. We are just me. I just am. I suppose only time will tell.....

PS: Given that I posted this, anxiety-provoking though it is ("god" help me), if anyone can relate even a little to anything shared above, would certainly welcome your comments.
 
I find gender really fascinating. I was born a boy and identify as a man, but I don't like to be tied down to what society says is appropriate for a man.
I will hold a friend's hand. I can talk about my feelings with the best of 'em. I hug people a lot, I don't work, I like to cook and bake bread. I know how to knit. I like things like yoga, singing, stuff like that. I cry pretty easily. I suppose you could call any of that my feminine side, but why? I think any of those things are equally ok for men, except for the fact society labels them Female.
I also play on a couple of rec sports leagues. Play guitar in some punk / alt rock bands. I skateboard. I like having sex and laughing with friends and I like airplanes and driving cars and smoking and punching things when I'm mad and other things that are Male.

So is one my female side and the other my male side? Personally I don't think so. I think all of those things are equally ok for men and women, and identifying anything with one sex / gender or the other aside from physical characteristics is letting society decide what's normal and what's not. Labeling any part of my personality as male or female is to me denying a whole gender permission to experience feelings or experiences etc because they aren't for them.
pretty much, I am me, a male, as much when I'm baking a kick ass challah as I am when I'm landing a kick flip. I refuse to believe that sensitivity and kindness and compassion are not male traits - I've known too many sensitive and kind and compassionate men to believe that (many who are also very typically male or with very "manly" jobs).

Maybe there is no female or male sides to us, maybe it's all just human sides that we've learned are either for or not for us and hide or express accordingly.
 
The more I ponder, the more I realize the question for me isn't around behaviors that may be associated with one gender or another and whether or not those behaviors are OK based on that. It's about feelings, attitudes, ways of perceiving, relating, and being. I feel that's the key difference here. I do not think of myself as male nor is it likely I will ever think of myself as male, despite this male body.
 
I have no conclusive inner reference point from which to reply. It would be difficult to tactfully express what I imagine (and guess) and have empathically felt FROM men. Maybe someone who identifies as male should explain how it feels so that I have some reference to compare with.
 
I think gender is an interesting topic too. I'm not sure what I want to say exactly, but it's something I've been thinking about a lot lately. I hate a lot of things about myself - like not being tall and not being well built and just looking the way I look. I hate that I care about things that men aren't supposed to care about. And real men are supposed to only want to have sex with women, and I don't particularly want to. For me, I think a lot of this comes from being abused and from things my abusers said to me. I'm not sure what a 'real man' is or what they should act like either but I'm pretty sure it's not me. I think I'd like to be happy with what I have and who I am rather than change to try and fit in but that doesn't seem to be happening. Thanks for posting about this - I'd be interested to hear what others have to say on the subject.
 
Hi there Gina/Jay

I really appreciate the way you express yourself honestly and deeply from the heart. We share an interest in the topic of gender as a social construct. I've written several pieces that can be read on my Facebook page. I'd like to share the links if that's something that may be of interest. They are set to "public" so I don't anticipate having difficult accessing them.

Anatomy of a gender orientation

Human pair-bonding and mated relationships in cultures popular and traditional

Boys will be girls will be boys will be .... etc

and finally ....

Debunking gender codes: from deviance to variance

All the best,

Ron
 
Hi txb and SansLogos. Thanks so much for your feedback! It's been a few days since I've been on here. Have been integrating much since that last post. Rather meaningful.

Anyway,txb, I really relate and appreciate what you said: "I think I'd like to be happy with what I have and who I am rather than change to try and fit in." I'm beginning to realize that trying to fit a mould may be futile if there are no moulds that fit me. And that's OK. I don't have to but I surely believed I did and that was causing SOOO much conflict. I really didn't realize the extent to which I was unconsciously trying to fit in and feeling bad about myself when I didn't/couldn't.

SansLogos, thanks for the links. The titles definitely get my attention so will surely check them out. Aiming to absorb everything I can find that may add to my understanding and/or broaden my perspectives.

Well, sun's still out so back to the garden!

Thanks again!
 
Thank you for being open and sharing, Acorn2Oak. For what it's worth, I've come to accept being two genders in one body no matter what other people think. My parents are different races and it took decades for me to understand that I'm both races together. Not one OR the other, no matter who wants me to pick what. No matter which I look like more to society... I can't just erase half of my heritage to fit in a "choose one."

And no one can define what "being both" feels like for me, other than me. So I take the same approach with gender. If I feel like explaining myself, or that it's helpful to someone else to explain myself, I do. But I no longer feel like I must. We are all free to do the same.

I like this conversation. Cheers to your gardening!

Asa
 
Thanks, Asa, I appreciate your feedback, both that you shared and what you shared. You make some good points, especially "what being both feels like." the more I contemplate, the more I accept that my own perspective is the one I have to rely on.

Hi Ron, thanks again for the links. Very insightful and much appreciated. I remember in one something about a Bem Inventory. I searched online and found some self-tests referring to it, presumably associated with it, but don't know if those are the "real" test or not. Any input/info greatly appreciated.
 
When I was in college and trying to figure all of this out, I took several sociology classes and the one that stood out to me in particular was definitely the Sociology of Gender class. Originally I took it thinking if I understood our society's social constructs of gender, maybe I could aide my partner (who was just starting his transition) in fitting into the gender box he was finally coming into.

What happened was I ended up realizing that I was in the wrong gender box and had been for years. The essays we read in that class, and the discussions we had, they were just so eye-opening and confusing all at the same time. I ended up taking the class twice so that I was sure I soaked up as much information as I could. I already identified as gender-fluid (which I believe is the same as non-binary?) and thought I was happy that way. However it became more and more apparent to me as the class went on that because of my abuser I was actually settling for gender-fluid instead of fully beginning my own transition. I was terrified of how my abuser would react to finding out that he might have to look at the SON he abused and not the "daughter", that he would lash out because that would make him gay (I had already dealt with this reaction from the one ex I had told before).

Long story short (sorry if this was too much information, I get off track sometimes..) I would suggest taking a class if you have the time/money. If you don't, the textbook that changed my life is called Reconstructing Gender: A Multicultural Anthology by Estelle Disch. Hope it helps.
 
(Apologies for straying a bit off topic, Acorn2Oak.)

My T recommends the book _Queering_Sexual_Violence_ by Jennifer Patterson. It's a collection of stories written by gender non-conforming folks who share their OWN experiences with SA. The overall goal of this book is to go beyond the "traditional 'violence against women' framework" when it comes to sexual abuse. Many of us feel unaddressed by traditional r/pe recovery programs. I know that I do.

Good luck (to us all),
Asa
 
Acorn,

Thank you, yes I can relate and have had perhaps similar experiences and observations. I am pretty out about the fact that I was born with herniated testicles and in fact lost one. It took me tons and tons of writing here, to figure out my abuser controlled me with orgasm denial. This of course either leads to feminization or emasculation (many believe that this is the same thing, but I believe an absolute difference, no matter how subtle.)

Often I have thought that I might be a girl born in boys body or perhaps I had DID (I believe that there are a ton of us that perhaps don't officially have DID, yet are what, I like to call "doorstep" cases.

I have driven myself rather psychotic trying to answer the question of "Nature vs. Nurture." I have also tried to smother, all those parts that I identified as female withinside of me. This also proved to be, just as nonsensical.

I like you, yearn for the answers. Both my parents were teachers, so isn't it only natural that I seek knowledge and truth? So there I was, skating the thin ice, on the far side of forever...and I found it. After all these years of searching. I finally found the label that best describes me. The term is "PoMoSexual."

I understand that not all questions have definitive answers, but sometimes we really need a label, if there is a label. Please, give me something tangible...Anything, I can wrap my mind around...Please give me something. Bang.

Combination (Aerosmith Rocks)

island
 
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Thanks, everyone since my last post in March ... geez, has it been that long?! ... for your comments.

BFree27 and 30something, thanks for the book suggestions ... I'll see if I can find them.

1islandboy, I too have debated the nature vs nurture though these days I try not to think about it too much. I suspect I don't recall enough to make sense of it and just go round in circles. Sorry, I guess my brain isn't connecting ... Can you clarify what "PoMoSexual" means? The DID thing is something I've also wondered about.

Dissociated1, I read the link you posted. Thank you. It was insightful for my journey too. If I were to interact from within the presumed context of DID, I would say I miss Gina when she isn't "up" which is most of the time ... though I often sense her in the background. She's the happy, emotionally present, empowered spirit. Though I feel no inclination as her to dress as one might usually associate with a woman, the FEELINGS, the BRIGHTNESS, the confidence and self-assurance is sorely missed. I wish I was her all the time. But I may have no real idea what I'm talking about here. Can I ever be sure? Can I ever be accurate? I doubt it.

What I basically have to deal with is this somewhat intelligent, talented, capable conglomeration that can't seem to interface effectively with this world, even if it can with certain people occasionally ... at a distance, one who can't "succeed" or even get by financially, and who has a knack for choosing the wrong relationship partner, no matter how careful I aim to be or how much better than before that partner may seem at first. So my choices don't line up with my values ... but then I know that already, because what I want (or think I want) in a relationship is also what I want to avoid for various reasons - shame, confusion, fear. For example, I can't choose to be with a woman I consider physically attractive because that seems sexist or mysogynistic or whatever. Fortunately, I can and do have emotional rapport with women that are the one bright spot of my life.

It looks like I'm back to the section of the spiral where I don't know why I bother trying to figure all this shit out. After all, here I am early 50's with nothing of consequence to show for it ... can't even afford to live on my own ... and yet the one constant is that no matter how many times I've given up, I sooner or later get up the gumption to resume plodding along.
 
In re: the topic itself, the discussion of a "non-binary gender"...

I think it's important to remember that gender is a social construct, you know? Society forced people to be either "male" or "female" and then placed things into those stacks however they saw fit. For God's sake, people think blue is a color that only boys can like! It's insane!

Then you have people who say, "there may not be two genders, but there are two sexes," to which I would reply, "What does that have to do with anything?" as well as, "Intersex people exist and their existence aren't just 'biological mistakes.'"

We're so obsessed with trying to understand sex and gender identity that we're not even thinking if we SHOULD. Why can't people just be people?

By all means, if you feel like applying a label to your identity, then do so! I was assigned male at birth and identity as a male, and I'm comfortable with labeling myself as cisgender. But that's me. Just because I happen to fit comfortably in a label doesn't mean others do.

What I'm trying to say, Acorn, is that if you feel the label of non-binary fits you and you want to apply it to yourself, then by all means, do so! I have a few non-binary friends and they found so much comfort with that label. I just want to stress to you and anyone reading this that you don't have to label your gender identity if you don't want to. Some view labels as being too restrictive for who they are, you know what I mean? At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is being comfortable with yourself.

I don't want to dismiss people who label their identity (or even their sexuality), but at the same time, I want to give validation for those who don't, and to encourage people to wonder if they apply a label to themselves because they choose to or because they feel forced to.

I'm sorry if this has already been debated about in the thread and if everyone has moved on, and it's possible I'm repeating other people's words... I just thought I'd give my two cents in regards to the topic of the non-binary identity.
 
When I reached puberty at about 12, I knew I was not feeling the way I was supposed to about the other boys. I knew (do you know anything at that age?) that I felt like girls feel about boys. This is abuse related in my case which took me till my early forties to understand.

Now I'm in my late fifties and I am experiencing "her" for the first time. I walked through all these years wanting to be submissive or a "femme" if you will, but some of violent People in my childhood left me outwardly very abusive. People just got rid of me because I was so messed up. Nobody knew what was wrong with me, especially me, but that something was wrong was easy to see. I couldn't hide it. Not being feminine so much but just a basket case. I was really scared all the time because I didn't know any of this. Yes I'm a boy and yes, I'm a girl and though I've always been my male self in my male body I'm just still very much a girl.

It was like half of me was always missing and it's hard to do things you know when you're half a person. I worked like mad to hide her and it killed me almost because I was so terrified someone would see. In that way it's a "coming out" but it's not, it's not like that, it's just being able to look out at the world through her eyes. Feel her feelings? It was in Mike Lew's book, one of the survivors said "they made me into a girl." I got that. Things like that and therapy and everything helped me see it.

Thank you so much for the thread because I'm not any of those lables either. I am getting more comfortable now finally. It was a terrible struggle. (It still is but knowing is better) I really believed I had to fit into a category because I thought this or I felt like that or had had this or that experience. I don't, I just have to be myself as much as I can.
 
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