no violence, no coercion; is it still abuse?

no violence, no coercion; is it still abuse?
M

Mickey

Registrant
I'm confused. I visit this site and read postings. I'm reading Mike Lew's Victims No Longer. And it seems that the basic theme is that child sexual abuse is usually violent and/or coerced. In my case, neither was true. My older brother would just ask me if I wanted to "play" and I would agree. Usually we would just fondle each other; only one time did he ejaculate (I was too young). Yet much of what I am reading aout adult survivors seems to apply to me. So in what sense can "abuse" be applied to childhood play between a 10 year old and a 14 year old?
 
The age difference is enough to define the situation as abusive. There is a huge gap in sexual knowledge between the ages of 10 and 14. Even simple mutual fondling can create sexual confusion in young victims, especially those verging on adolescence. Your situation is similar to what I experienced except for the fact that I did go thru some emotional coercion.

Also, I still have strong negative feeling about the word play which came to signify sexual activity. There is a level of guilt involved in these activities which is very difficult for young minds to comprehend or deal with.

So, to answer your question, yes, you might have been abused. I cannot say that your brother was an intentional perp, but he certainly had to know much more about what was going on than you did.

Aden
 
Mickey
a large part of sexual abuse is actually the abuse of power.

It doesn't always need coercion, violence or force to abuse someone. Sometimes all that is needed if for the abuser to be older and have more power than their victim.
They often don't need to show their power, all they have to do is have that power.

When we're kids the difference in age the power that difference represents is much more important and pronounced than it is when we're adults.
At 51 I have friends of all ages, and we can interact without any problems. But the difference between a 10yo and a 14yo boy is huge.

The 14yo is probably physically bigger for a start, and they will almost certainly know things the 10yo wont know, such as the basics of sex.
They will also have more idea about how to coerce a younger boy as well.

Think hard about everything surrounding the sex acts, the sex is probably a small part of the abuse, the overall grooming and persuasion would have gone on. But at the time he was smart enough to hide it, and shift the blame onto you. Or at least a major part of the blame anyway.

And that's what you feel now, the blame and guilt for "being willing"

My guess is that the coercion was so subtle a 10yo boy would have no chance of recognising it.
But was there an underlying threat of bullying if you didn't co-operate? Did you receive unexpected kindness for co-operating?

A 14yo is way ahead of a 10yo, if you have some young cousins or nephews about that age have a look at them, try to imagine your past with the mind of the 10yo. We tend to look back with the mind of the adult we are now, and it doesn't work.
Mickey at 10 was a very different person to Mickey the adult.

Dave
 
Mickey,
My first thought when I read your post was to want to ask the question, "what would have happened if you had said no, I'm not interested" or "what would have happened if you told your parents what he was wanting to do"?

Ok, either one of those scenarios might not have been something you did or would have done, but the answers to these two questions, might help you to understand things. I don't know for sure, but those two questions came to mind when I read your post.

Hope I didn't intrude wrongly on this but just felt it would be valuable to share this.

Don
 
Mickey,
Yes, what your brother did was abuse. Like everyone else said, your brother had power over you because he was bigger and more knoledgeable. You had no clue as to what this was. First you didn't know this was sex. Then you didn't know how sex between brothers and sex between men was viewed in society and didn't have the maturity to make a decision on your own. Add to that, there probably was coercion of you on his part even if you don't remember it. Trust me, there is plenty of things that I know I don't remember about my abuse. And it wasn't violent. It was just like yours, it went farther but it was with my brother I was 12 and he was 15 1/2.

I struggled with this for awhile whether it was abuse, mine is even more confusing because at 12, you are more aware of sex then at 10.

Bottom line, is it was abuse and you are not to blame.

Jason
 
Lord help me, I was willing to please. I wanted to make her feel good. Do you understand the confusion and guilt that causes? Even now I think it holds me back from helping people at least as a day to day matter.

I also think that is why children are targeted by predators, most are willing to help somebody and are often giving souls. I know I was. I don't recall any real coercion and I know there was no use of force. But on all that is good and pure, she abused her place in the world and damaged my soul and psyche. So yes I would say it is abuse. At least on the basis of the darkness laid on me.
 
For fear of saying something damaging or incorrect and innapropriate I am going to reframe from posting much thought on this subject for now because I too struggle alot with this very same question. I am terribly sorry for your struggles and I hope you can find the answers to your questions. Thank you for having the courage to ask this question and I hope that more people post on this topic to give more feed back. I am going to follow up with this thread to see what others say and I am also for those that are interested going to post something hear that goes along with this. The thread is rather long but I pray that I will get at least a few responces to it. As soon as I become less confused about this matter I will post more as to what I believe. I am sorry I can not be helpful. But hopefully one day I will be. Good luck and God bless, your friend malidin.
 
i really struggled with this for a long time. i felt like i had consented, so it was my fault as much as his. can a child really consent though? at ten did you have the indepth knowledge that it would take to say yes? did you really understand what yes meant? i dont think so. now that isnt saying your borther did either, but certainly he had more knowledge than you did. i think almost any therapist you talk to would call that abuse. in the end, it doesnt matter what you label it, if it affected you and caused you problems.
 
what bugs me now piggy backing on what phoster2 says the problem I now face is how do I deal with issues of consent and knowing I am ready now in my life. The consent issue and the abuse has probably pretty well screwed up my sexuality. I do not know how to get back to ground zero and start over again and build that healthy sexuality.
 
It is still abuse to you. It twisted and manipulated your mind and your feelings. He may have meant no harm by it, but if you talk with them, and listen to their justifications, neither do any sexual offenders. Most of them use completely false logic and see nothing wrong with what they do, and actually feel that it is good for their victims, and claim that they are doing it because they "love" them.
 
I do agree with the general consensus that it is still abuse even without the coersion, and violence. but at the same time, ask yourself if there are any reprecussions from what happened... it still runs across your mind, it still confused you as to your sexuality, it still plagues you with haunting visions that you can't place (not really "you", but us in general), and the list of "symptoms" goes on and on.... whether this was abuse or not, it still was something that greatly effected you life, and it is still something that you need to deal with because of its effects. My story is very very similar to yours mickey, as i too was abused by my brother, but he is/was 8 years older than i, and at the time i was only between the ages of 5and 8. there are many many things that i have blocked, and i can't remember, pretty much my entire childhood.... and it has had huge reprecussions on the rest of my life that i wont dive into right now... but they are definitely things that i need to reconcile, and come to grips with as i journey through this life on a roller coaster...

so do I call it abuse???
only if i have to... i prefer to avoid the technical terms, and just go about living my life, and dealing with each day, and taking a little at a time as i make the best of what i have... and thats the rest of my life ahead of me to make as good as i possibly can....

peace,
cpt.
 
I know of a man who has struggled with this question, and still struggles.

He was phsyically and emotionally abused by his parents, as his sister was also. What they both suffered was beyond comprehension, they actually 'stole' bread from neighbours bird tables while their parents ate expensive takeaways.
But they were not sexually abused by their parents.

The guy was however sexually abused by another man, who fed him, cared for him, treated him well, bought him clothes because he had to wear his sisters blouses as 'hand me downs' to go to school!

What happened was wrong. But his initial thinking that this abuser was the 'good guy' is perfectly understandable.

But the 'good guy' could have been good without the sex, that was a concious choice on his part.

there are NO reasons or excuses, sex abuse is WRONG!

Dave
 
But, Dave, part of my uanswered question was whether a 14-year old (probably just working out his own sexuality) can be held responsible for his actions. Cpt's post gets it right for me: whatever happened has, as I am now just beginning to understand, had a MAJOR impact on my life in so many ways, no matter what I call it. So I have to cope, face my past, acknowledge my feelings, etc. But can a 14-year-old be held responsible for doing "wrong"?
 
Mikey,

You experienced sexual abuse at the hands of your brother. There is no real question about that.
But you want to know if your brother was a culpable abuser. That is a question only you can answer. It is a gray area that requires personal understanding of the situation and a degree of willingness to accept and forgive. Can you accept what happened without guilt or anger? Can you forgive your brother for wrongs he may not have fully understood?

You were used by someone of greater power and knowledge than yourself. That is clearly abuse. The degree to which you hold your brother responsible for that abuse depends largely on what you believe to be his level of understanding, and possible ill will. You are an adult now, the power of judgment is in your hands.

Aden
 
Mickey,

I agree with Aden, and several others who posted here, saying that the underlying issue is the power (real or imagined), that he held over you.

Did he really know what he was doing? Maybe, but he did know that he had power over you, and that that is more to the issue.

My siblings, and even my children, have done things to wield their power over the younger, or weaker sibling, just because they can, or out of spite.

Just my thoughts,
estuardo
 
Mickey
whatever happened has, as I am now just beginning to understand, had a MAJOR impact on my life in so many ways, no matter what I call it. So I have to cope, face my past, acknowledge my feelings, etc.
Click to expand...
That's the truth of the matter I think, whatever happened, and whoever was at fault, is probably not the most important thing for us at this time.
The most important thing is reclaiming our lives, through doing some hard soul searching work and therapy. And "acknowledging your feelings", as you so rightly say.
The effects on us are devastating, they turn our world upside down, and the fact remains that we can't alter the past. So I try my hardest to alter the present.

Of course the past is important, we need to understand as much as we can so we can alter our present lives, but there is so much we can do about our present lives without getting bogged down in the minute details of the past. The details will probably emerge slowly as we heal. The stronger we get the easier it becomes to face the details head on and picture what happened with accuracy; with less emotion even.

My brother is 8 years older than me, and until we were adults the age difference was so great we hardly knew each other. But I think 4 years difference is enough to have a big difference in power and influence, especially at 10 and 14.
The big difficulty is that the problems you now face were as a result of what went on between your older brother and you, and blood is thicker than water; I can't imagine the issues guys in your position face


It might have been 'play' - or presented to you as 'play' - but he was bigger, stronger and had more sexual knowledge than you, and I believe that sexual abuse is often more about "power abuse".
That can have many effects if someone coerces us into doing something against our will, even when the coercion is so subtle that it's virtually impossible to identify.

Which leads us back to your original question, and part of my first reply -

They often don't need to show their power, all they have to do is have that power.
Click to expand...
I adored my older brother, he was my hero when I was growing up, and I would have done anything he asked. Why? because I trusted him and believed that he was always right.
Thankfully he was always very good to me when we were young boys so I didn't have to do anything he asked, but if I had it wouldn't have been because he threatened me in any tangible way, it would have been because I wanted to please him. BUT, the fact remains that if he had asked me to do something against my will he would have had to have thought about it, and taken into consideration our relationship. That action alone would have made his wish / demand abusive.

Dave
 
What you say, Dave, is filled with wisdom. I cannot change the past, maybe I can change the present and I desparately want to change my future. I don't care about exploring or reliving every detail; that doesn't matter.

What I care about exploring and understanding is ME: who I am, who I became as a result of being abused, being exposed to sexuality too early in too graphic and physical a way, in a way I found so disgusting.

I know that who I am is a result of these acts, but who I can become is - to some extent - in my hands and in my heart. Now I just figure out how to transcend my past to build my future. I think that's what therapy is about...or at least I hope so.

Mickey
 
Mickey
what happened to us as boys did shape our lives, every kid is shaped by their childhood influences, ours just had some unwanted and inappropriate influences.

But in amongst all the wrong things that went on to affect us there must have been some good influences that as adults we seem to bury deeply, even ignore.
They're still in there somewhere, we just need to re-direct our focus to find them.

Dave
 
I've spent decades focusing on the good influences in my childhood and ignoring this painful one (actually, a lot more than one). I agree that as adults we are all influenced by all sorts of experiences we had as children.

It's just that I'm learning now that one set of experiences that I didn't even know about influenced me in ways that are more dramatic than I even like to acknowledge now..to myself. That's what scares me: How much of who aI am in so many important realms of life is a result, at least in part or maybe wholly, by this one twisted part of my past. This is what pains me so much, even as I sit here typing.
 
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