need advice *trigger?*

need advice *trigger?*

zadok1

Registrant
An update on my wife and I

Things are improving, not sexually, but emotionally. A few days back, after realizing my part in the wall that is growing between us, I began working very hard on talking and paying attention to her. Affection and intimacy are the foundations for sex, and I know that I must do my part if we are to heal things. I allowed resentment to build in me, and drive a wedge between us. Only days ago, we each clung to our side of the bed, staying as far apart as we could. She would bury her head, and pile up blankets and pillows between us. Naturally I did my part, pretending to be fast asleep when she came to bed. I felt so alone and distant, I believe that I could have walked out on her by then.

I took a step back the other day, and asked myself what was really important in life. Clearly my wife and kids have to rank first, even above my own needs and ambitions. Was I willing to let this resentment and selfishness claim my marriage? No, I dont think so.

Love, closeness and marriage are something that you must work very hard at. There are no such things as perfect relationships, or perfect people. For my part, my father was very abusive. He would throw these loud fits, yelling and calling me names. I did two things to cope. First I learned to put my thoughts aside, and simply do what he wanted. I let him control me this way until well into my twenties. This is largely where my relationship problems are coming from. My addiction takes a back seat to my lack of assertiveness. I let my strong wife walk all over me, not that she knows she is doing it. How could she? I never tell her what I want or need. Instead I go with the flow, and then allow resentment and anger to build up inside. I hate myself for being weak, and it keeps coming out in unhealthy ways such as addiction and closing myself off from the world.

The second way I dealt with my father was by turning to sex for escape. Yet, sexual addiction is actually a symptom of a larger problem. The root cause of everything is my fathers abuse. Even being molested when I was six isnt the root of things. I could have dealt with that, it only introduced the vehicle I would use to escape. It wouldnt have become addiction if I didnt need a coping mechanism to begin with.

So what do I do? Do I walk around pissed off at my father for the rest of my life? Clearly, as a Christian, feeling ill toward him makes me feel ashamed and sinful. I need to be pissed at him, but cant because I goes against what I believe is right. It is far easier to be depressed and upset with myself for failing to set things right than to feel what I know I want to.

At some point, I had to rise above the endless circles of pain, anger and distress. I refuse from this point on to wallow there. I will forgive myself, and work very hard on correcting to worst symptom of my abuse, passiveness. Being passive causes me more problems than my addiction ever did. If I were assertive enough to say when my needs werent being met, then I wouldnt suffer for months before working on it.

I want to know, how would you feel if your mate told you that his/her needs werent being met? Would it make you mad, and feel like he/she was being selfish? Also, how would you like to hear it? I mean is bluntly saying it best, or is there a caring way you would like such news? I want to strike up a conversation about it, but want to do it in a positive, open way. I dont want to kill the emerging closeness we have begun, and drive her back away. Yet, I feel that if I cannot become more assertive, I will never be proud of myself, nor get over hating myself.
 
Have you been reading my diary? Except for an abusive father, this could be my post(maybe not as well written).

My wife is a control freak, so gaining a sense of control is an issue for me. I've not said that any need was not being met, but I do use the phrase "you know what I need?". I was blunt about one thing. It wasn't a pleasant sight & I do not recommend it.

After 10 years of marriage it is not easy to up and change the roles that we have established.

I've taken some pride in knowing that I could force things to be done the way I want them done, but I let her do things her way out of love for her. Her need to control is a big deal. I've learned to balance my needs with her needs.

The real danger is in reaching the point where she says "Ok, you be in charge", that's not sumbission--its a dare. She knows that you have never been in charge and that you can't handle it, and she will get to say "I told you so", and cut off your balls and make 'em into her favorite pair of earings.

Proceed with extreme caution.

Devon
 
Zadok:

I'm glad to hear things are improving. Build on that momentum. Being assertive is not a bad thing, nor is being honest enuf to say what you need & what you don't need, what hurts you.

My wife is no control freak, but replace father with mother and our stories are quite similar.

Just last night I was feeling depressed, been in kind of a funk lately becuz of the holidays (which I've never liked much) and my fibromyalgia flaring.

Instead of isolating like I usually do, I went to my wife & crying told her I felt we were too distant & wanted to be more intimate in every way. Of course in my case this is just what my wife has been longing to hear, bless her heart. We talked & hugged awhile until our daughter got here--both are gonna be home for Thanksgiving.

I'm sure you'll be able to tell your wife you want to increase the closeness you've been having. If for her that means more control, or if you feel you can't tell her that until you deal with her control issues & your lack of assertiveness, bring it up gently in the context of that's what it'll take to build your intimacy.

If she wants intimacy she'll respond accordingly if not immediately. If she wants control then you can hopefully begin to exercise tough love & say no that's not what intimacy, love & marriage are all about. Let's work together.

Thats just my thots for what they're worth.

I wish you & your wife well. Take care Zakok.

Wuame
 
thank you guys for taking time to reply. i feel that i have made real progress over the past couple of years. there was a time where i couldnt have told her what my needs were. at least i can admit that i need her, and need intimacy, support and validation from her. i can even explain what she can do to help me feel that way.

we all want to think we are NORMAL, and admitting that i needed help and advice was hard. i didnt want to admit that i was sick or weak. then it came to me that needing help was NORMAL. everyone faces trouble in thier life, and abnormal would be someone who had no problems. when i dropped the sex addict and surivor labels, and felt normal in my search for healing and help, i made real strides toward healing.

what continues to surprise me is just how much of my life that abuse has made inroads in. it made me into a liar. it started with small lies to cover my sexual activities, but the more i lied the easier it was. by the time my wife confronted me, i was lying about all sorts of stupid things.

then it closed me off from the world. i lived a dual life, the abused and addicted one that i let no one see, and the one i held out to the world. to let someone inside became impossible, and believe me, learning to share such things with my wife has been hard.

i also learned to give in all the time, so that there wouldnt be a confrontation. i learned to push my thoughts and needs aside to avoid fights. i didnt want to give my father a reason to throw and tantrum, so i simply caved in. i tried to do what he wanted, and never allowed myself to feel anything.

i have decided that i am going to be angry with him for a time. i have spent my life feeling the way everyone wanted me to. now i want to feel whatever i feel. i am angry with my father. though i wont deny i had a part in what happened, his abuse was the reason for my sexual addiction, my closed off emotions, and my inability to have a happy life. he brow-beat me into feeling less than human, and drove me to hate my life so bad that i could have ended it.

i feel i am rambling, but thanks again, and God bless.

jeff
 
Jeff,

You have some really good insight. Recognizing which problems came from the abuse helped me to deal with my own.
I'm amazed at how similar your thoughts are to my own. Your posts have helped me to evaluate my own progress.
Thanks for posting. Keep working on becoming the man you want to be--you'll get there.
Devon
 
Jeff,
Thank you for sharing your update. I was touched by it. I've run smack into my abuse and addiction issues every time I've been in a relationship. Bravo to you for standing up for yourself, with your wife and symbolicly toward your father! I wish you the best with your wife and find new ways to meet each others needs in a loving, tender way.

I took a step back the other day, and asked myself what was really important in life. Clearly my wife and kids have to rank first, even above my own needs and ambitions.
Yes, to put your family and perhaps spiritual life as your first priority is the most important thing we as men can do when raising a family.

I believe, but can hardly put into practise yet, that I need to put getting my needs (and wants maybe) first. If I don't, I end up feeling used, that I don't count; it's my way of building resentments and falling back into old dysfunctional coping patterns that lead to my breaking up. If I learn how to nuture myself, only then can I nuture others. Finding the balance between my needs and others... ha, now thats the trick for me.

The second way I dealt with my father was by turning to sex for escape. Yet, sexual addiction is actually a symptom of a larger problem. The root cause of everything is my fathers abuse. Even being molested when I was six isnt the root of things. I could have dealt with that, it only introduced the vehicle I would use to escape. It wouldnt have become addiction if I didnt need a coping mechanism to begin with.
This says it all for me, written far more clearly than I could. I can't heal the whole tree (me) if the roots (my deepest issues) are ignored.

From your second post
what continues to surprise me is just how much of my life that abuse has made inroads in...

...then it closed me off from the world. i lived a dual life, the abused and addicted one that i let no one see, and the one i held out to the world. to let someone inside became impossible, and believe me, learning to share such things with my wife has been hard.
My journey may be hard, but it's not impossible!!! My dark side strives to destroy me, facing my truths is where I can now really begin my journey toward a life I want to live.

Seeing other men here facing their issues and dark sides helps me see I can do it too.

Go for it Jeff, be angry at your father. Feeling those feelings we've buried for so long is the only way to get past them and heal the old wounds.

Jer
 
Hi Jeff!

It just makes me mad when I read " I won't deny I had a part in what happened".
I feel and have been feeling the way you feel now all my life. Being the liar, not asserting my needs, closing up, zooming out, not thinking myself cause all my energy has been directed towards handling my dad's abusiveness.
It takes so much time to learn just to think and be present and not zoom out. I am working on that part now and I realize that we are able to change. I can change and so can you. We need not be victims.
You were NOT part of what happened. You were not there, not present. Not present enough to be able to say anything and being yourself. How could you have been part of it??
HE was in charge and you had no part, did you get to choose your part?, cause you had no will on your own, no matter how you felt then. You were his victim and he manipulated you.

I am sorry, I get carried away. I have also thought that I was there, but I wasn't, not the real me. I had escaped and I still do to this day, but I am fighting my way back to the living.

take care,

Erik
 
by my part, i want to own my place in things. for me, i dont want to simply use more excuses. if i lay the blame totally at my father's feet, that makes him a valid excuse for everything i have done. i am through making excuses. i chose to follow an older boy into the bushes where he molested me. my innner voice was telling me better, and i knew it was wrong, but i went any way. no, i didnt fully understand, but i still played a part in it. same with my father. i chose to use sex to escape him. i was powerless to stop him, but the power of how to deal with it was mine. i made a unhealthy choice. it is fine to say something contributed to what happened along the way, but i have run from my responsibility for far too long. i am ultimately responsible for where my life went. i didnt have to escape into sex. i didnt have to go with that boy. i didnt have to seduce all those women. i didnt have to cheat on my wife. those are all my fault. i promised that i would stop lying to myself, and i am trying to call it the way i see it from now on. i was abused and addicted to sex, but today i am not. i made bad choices, but not today. i own what i did, and it keeps me grounded so i dont do it again. that is just how i cope. it may not work for everyone, but it does for me.
 
Hey guys,

There are some awesome words and thoughts here. I think we all need to take ownership.
Blaming all of my problems on my abuse has been my mechanism to cope. I've felt my recovery had stalled, and maybe this is why. I've accepted what happened--but blamed my actions on the abuse.
I guess it's time for me to take ownership.

Thanks for sharing.

Devon
 
What I'm trying to do, and I think succeeding to some degree, is move from using "I was abused" as an excuse, to using "I was abused" as a factual explanation that helps me, and if need be others, to understand what lies behind my acting out, dysfunctional behavior, whatever. Knowing the root helps dig it out & thus kill the evil fruits. At least that's how it seems to be working for me.

Wuame
 
Hi again!

I agree with Wuame. I have been abused over a long period of time, on a daily basis, been owned and it affects me today, but it is no excuse. It is a fact and i am working on finding new paths in my life, cause i won't let it rule me anymore.

I also acted out sexually as a small boy. It instantly followed the actions. I became addicted, i had to take control somehow, control against my father.
I began to transfer the image I had of my father as a tyrant and perp onto other men, all men in the end. I thought that if they hurt me I could handle them, cause I knew what to do with them to please them. Then in my mind I reckoned they would get less fearsome.

Today I rediscover the person beneath the controlsystem.
I am very afraid of men and it is going to take time for me to trust them enough.
Enough so I won't have to handle them.
The person I discover amazes me. He is just like any other guy.
He is very young emotionally and mentally.

I didn't have a choice. What was my choice? As a small child I knew nothing, I was innocent.

As long as I lived at home the abusive situations went on. I grew up believing I was someone who I wasn't meant to be had I been left alone.

Today I have a choice. I can choose to work on my issues and move away from my old system or stay in it.

I was numbed emotionally and mentally. My father did this to me. Fear and repressed anger numbed me. In that state it was not possible to make any sensible decisions.
I think we have to be very gentle on ourselves.

Blame? Do I blame myself.No.
I can blame myself for other things, not taking responsibility enough in my life today at work or with my own closest family ( wife, child) and I have flaws in my personality which have nothing to do with the fact that I was abused.

But all the blame for the abuse and what came out of it is his. I am through with blaming myself for that. I have been feeling dirty and guilty and shameful for so long. I shouldn't have felt that at all.

/ Erik
 
Damn right brother! You are not your abuse, and you are not your abuser! WTG Erik!

Wuame
 
Zadoc

let me quote this back at you
I let my strong wife walk all over me, not that she knows she is doing it. How could she? I never tell her what I want or need. Instead I go with the flow, and then allow resentment and anger to build up inside. I hate myself for being weak, and it keeps coming out in unhealthy ways such as addiction and closing myself off from the world.
I thought that way for over 25 years, I disclosed to my wife just before our 25th anniversary - some present eh ?
But, that's exactly what I thought, and Devon describes his wife as a "control freak", now I don't know your wives guys, but the feeling I get is one I remember.

Maybe they aren't the strong, controlling people you imagine ?
And I say this with all respect to you, maybe it's your view of them that makes them seem that way ?
We have severly distorted views due to our backgrounds, our self esteem has been shattered.
Maybe it's us believing we are downtrodden ?

As I have gone through recovery I have begun to see that the woman who has earned twice my salary, had a career, coped with everything thrown at her, run my life for me - she is actually my equal.

I have discovered that although she has changed some during this time, we can talk on the same intellectual level, I can make choices without her disagreing with me. I can now make my own mind up about things.

This didn't happen before, and I thought she was the 'boss' - but she's not, I was just being subservient ecause that's the way my abusers made me.

Just a thought guys.

Lloydy
 
Lloydy,

I agree with you.
I too have come to believe that my wife deliberately used me for her benefits.
But the clearer I can see things the more it becomes obvious that this is not the case.

However, I don't find it implausible that dominant women, who actually are very insecure themselves and to compensate for this need to demonstrate power in a relationship, could be attracted to subservient men. We cannot rule this out.
That is my opinion.

/Erik
 
Lloydy makes an interesting point. My abusers taught me to be subserviant too, and that was where I felt the comfort of a familiar environment.

Before I was married I have had what my therapist calls "emotional affairs" with other women over the years who did not make me feel subserviant. As a matter of fact, it seems that they wanted to be subserviant to me. But somehow I just couldn't take those relationships to the next level. I dont know why, but I would just run away from them with the idea that this way they wouldn't hurt me and although running away hurt, I was in control of how and when it hurt. I figured if they knew me they wouldn't love me any more. That it was only a matter of time. I think I needed them to treat me abusively and then still seem interested in me, but they never did treat me badly, so I never felt confident they liked the real me. I concluded that they never knew me and thats why they never treated me that way and continued to like me.

When my wife treated me with disrespect and seemed to be angry at me all the time, told me all the things that were wrong with me and made me feel like no one in thier right mind would tolerate me, I felt like, yeah thats me, she knows me, thats who I am, now I feel comfortable. But at the same time she stayed with me, so I felt like: she knows me and she stays, and no one else would.

I could never take a risk with the other girls who "didn't know what was wrong with me" because I knew if I did and it didnt work out, I would loose the only normal respectful "relationships" I had ever had. One girl in particular told me that she loved me, and more important than that she made me feel that way every day for 18 months, but I just wasn't willing to risk trading that in for a real relationship. If she ceased to love me than no one would love me. At least this way I knew that somewhere out there someone loved me, even though I might never see her again.

I worked really hard on myself and my career, thinking foolishly that if I ever felt good about myself I would track her down and take that chance. Once I did feel that I was good enough for her I was able to start looking at my life and my past, and thats when I remembered my neighbor filming me and had my breakdown.

Lloydy makes an interesting point. I also often see people who are not controling abusers as being my abusive superiors, and maybe some of our wives fit into that catagory. I dont think this is true of my wife though. She really does walk all over me. Every one of my friends and family has said that to me. They all say "why do you let her treat you that way?", "why do you take that from her?" Only now can I see that that is not what I really deserve.

I'm getting to the point that whe she tries to control me with anger and guilt (which is what all abusers do), I just laugh and tell her her stupid games aren't going to work on me.

I want to talk about wives more. I'm kind of reluctant though because I rarely get any feedback when I post or respond to a post.
 
Men, I agree that Lloydy has a very good point that gives me alot to think about. My wife is by no means a dominant type, but she does have ways in certain areas that I have come to sometimes see as controlling, especially since my abuse memories came back. Before that I would rarely have thot of her as controlling. Quite the opposite. So in my case Lloydy is right on target.
What I sometimes see as my wife trying to control are really expressions of her fear & insecurity.

Les Angry, evidently yours is one of the cases Erik refers to in which a dominant woman was attracted to a subservient man, and maybe vice versa; for as you said, you've felt this is what you deserve.

I'm glad you don't feel that way anymore, becuz you don't deserve it; nobody does. I hope you'll be able to work things out with your wife to have a mutual healing & healthy relationship based not on giving & receiving abuse, but on mutual love, trust & caring.

Let's keep talking about wives (or SO's), Les. It is a vital topic in some way to most if not all of us. We want to share mutually with our wives, not be doormats; that may have been a survival tool of necessity at one time, but its' sure not what we need now.

Take care

Wuame
 
Men:

A rather humorous story I picked up on another forum that may apply to what we're talking about here, among other things:

"An old man, a boy and a donkey were going to town. the boy rode on the donkey and the old man walked.

They passed some people who remarked it was a shame the old man was walking and the boy was riding. The man and boy thot maybe the critics were right, so they changed positions.

Later, they passed some more people who remarked, what a shame, he makes that little boy walk. Then they decided they both would walk.

People passing by commented on what a waste this was that they both walked when they had such a fine beast of burden with them. So they both got on the mule.

Soon they passed some more people who shamed them by saying how awful to put such a load on a poor donkey, so they decided to carry the jackass.

As they crossed the bridge, they lost their grip on the ass and he fell into the river.

The moral of the story:

If you try to please everyone,

you might as well kiss your ass goodbye!

Wuame :D
 
Erik is absolutely right to say that some dominant people seek the subservient out and then excercise that dominance. And generally we - the abused - are subservient and make easy targets.

The problems when we start our recovery and regain our self esteem, suddenly we dont appreciate taking crap from others and start to react against it.
Possibly this is what Les is experiencing now, she's the same woman but he's changing ?

Luckily this didn't happen to me, my wife is a very strong person , but not domineering. And before I started recovery I was the origional "whatever" slacker. I didn't know how to voice my opinions, I didn't think anyone wanted to hear them let alone consider them. So I went with the flow.
Now I have my say and what happens between us is a joint affair, we discuss things at last.

She's still a strong woman, but I'm catching up I think.
We change drastically as we heal, we have to, healing is impossible without changeing our self esteem and self concept.

I have a very good handout from my counselling class about this 'self' stuff that I'll try and put here somewhere

Lloydy
 
Lloydy,
I would love to read about that self stuff if you are able to post it.

These domineering people work themselves into every part of our lives. I don't have any experiences with a spouse but the few friends that I did associate myself with were these types. Only now I realize why I hung out with them. One female friend was one such type. We have a lot in common and she was there for me through out my most difficult times. But as I have been going through this emotional growth spurt I find that I can no longer be around her. I use to look to her for answers but now I realize that I have the ability to make decisions. Her presences is an emotional drain on me. I would like to say that we'll remain friends but only time will tell.

As I learn more about co-dependance everything becomes clearer. My emotionally repressed childhood and my sexual abuse made me an easy victom for this condition. It's becoming rewarding as I slowly take my life back and break away from this behavior.
later skaters,
mike
 
I don't know if this will help a little Zadok, but I think it is a piece on the way back to recovering and rebuilding a relationship with someone close in your life - like a wife.
The first thing my wife and I did (after fruitlessly batting our heads against emotional walls) was talk about how to talk to each other.
We had keywords that meant certain things in any conversation. The first one I came up with was 'jericho'. As in, the walls of jericho and the sound that brought them down. If I said jericho, we both walk away from the conversation immediately. Like a safe word.
Other keywords and phrases came later, but first we had to figure out how to talk to each other.
If you establish a set of rules to talk by - at least initially, maybe it will help. Talk to her about communication and how you can communicate with each other without triggering landmines. The important thing, I think, is maintaining open, clear and honest communication. The trick is doing it safely. If something is hard for you to talk about or say, say that and offer assurances before you say what you need to.

When I do this, occasionally my foot stays on the floor and out of my mouth.

Spidey
 
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