Navigating my way.

Navigating my way.
K

Kieran1

Registrant
This week has been kind of a crazy one. As you all may have noted from my posts I have had many questions,needed advice from you all, and sincerely thank-you for it. The start of the road towards reaching that goal of calling myself a survivor has been "rocky",but deep down I knew it would be. I have been constantly forgiving myself for what happened to me so many years ago.Lots of emotional highs and lows(some crying bouts too.)My wife has been so good holding me,soothing me and above all else,listening,always listening,as I vent my feelings and let it all go at times. At times though, my thoughts take me back to that time. I honestly do try to block it out and come back to the present,where I have comfort and safety. I was and still am I guess a person who needs that "safety zone",just like my favorite safety zone was under my bed when I was a kid.Probably lots of other guys can relate to this.Somewhere that maybe no-one can find you,or a place you can sort out stuff(if you can.)My wife said to me yesterday that I was kind of cautious about getting to close when we were dating. She didn't mean it as a shortcoming at all but she kind of sensed that I was a little scared of initiating close contact,you know what I mean? Starting to initiate intimacy.At the time she thought it was kind of cute she said,but in retrospect it may have had a lot to do with trust, and a deep fear of attachment. Or could it have been linked to a fear of an inability to participate in a sexual relationship? Could anyone share with me about this?

Kieran
 
Kieran
I'm 49yo and been married for 38 of them.
And I have trouble making love to my wife.
I love her to bits, never been unfaithfull ( with other women ) but I still feel like a fucking rapist if I try to instigate sex.

Years ago this wasn't so much of a problem, but then the libido of youth was flowing and overcame my problems.
Looking back I know I had them, I used my fantasy of giving blow jobs ever since I can remember. That pisses mew off more than I can say, I feel as though it is a betrayal to her.

Only tonight we have talked about this and I said that I know what's going on, I understand what's contolling me to a great extent, so why can't I just go ahead and do it ?
Somewhere in the dark corners of my mind lurks a grain of doubt, just 0.001% doubt that what I've achieved so far is not right, that small percentage of doubt creeps into everything, self esteem, trust and even knowing that it wasn't my fault.
A grain of doubt remains even after my therapy and the hard work I've done to get this far.

She said, "Hold out your hand" so I did, I laid it on the resteraunt table palm up and she reached out and brushed my palm. "There, the grains gone" she said, "believe"
It's a good job I had a hot curry to blame my tears on.

I believe that I've hung onto that last grain of doubt because it's my safety net, my comfort blanket. I kept / keep it because I thought that one day I might want it again.
But in the same conversation I told her that the one thing that scares me shitless is that, for whatever unseen reason, I could, or might, go back to the way I was - acting out, suicidal and all that shit. It frightens me that some of that thought pattern is still within me, that last grain of doubt.

I'm so happy she brushed it away, it meant so much to me ( I was going to post about it but this post provided the perfect opportunity ) and now I feel all fired up again.
For a while I've been coasting, and I've started group therapy for the first time just weeks ago which is so good, I've got to the stage where I needed a kick in the butt, and I've got it.

The safety zone is there to protect us, it's what got us this far. If I hadn't had the 'release' of acting out, the coping statergy of dissociation and all the other crap what would I have done for 31 years ?
I don't want to think about that too much.
We need our safety zones and statergies, whatever they are. And if they are unwanted and counterproductive then so what, they keep us alive and kicking until something better comes along, and they aint going away overnight !
But something better does come along. It surely does.

Dave
 
Thanks, Kieran for starting this post about the problems of intimacy with our wives. Thanks Dave for sharing about the problems you have had and the honesty you both have shown.

This has prompted me to share honestly here right now, even though I fear I may sound like a stupid idiot for doing so.

I have been having similar problems. Actually I have had these problems all my life. Especially with women. Having been married at one time and after ten years going through a painful divorce.

I now am in a relationship (long-term 9 years) with a woman I really love and who loves me and shows me so much kindness and understanding. I only told her my history about sa two weeks ago. She said, "I knew that there was something wrong, but I didn't know it was "that". Thanks for telling me. I love you."

At the beginning of our relationship we had such wonderful intimacy. Our sexual relationship was terrific. Even through the years we have had a great sex life. However, in the last two years, I began to have mental images of being a sort of rapist whenever I initiated making love. Since Dave shared a similar experience it gave me the courage to share my story here too. I have this crazy mental picture of all women being like the Madonna (Michaelangelo's - not the pop singer/actress) and too pure, holy, and too untouchable to by touched by human hands, expecially by a horny male like I am sometimes. Then at other times I have an image that if I am making love to a woman, she is behaving like (please pardon my bluntness here) a "whore". I can't reconcile the two images, and I cannot bear to ascribe this last image to my woman. So in order to avoid this altogether, I have no intimacy with her. It's been this way for a year now. And it scares me a lot. What's going on with me? Am I nuts? Yeah, I know I am and I know why, but is everything bad that is happening in my life occurring as a result of my past sexual victimization?

Any help here would be appreciated guys, but I feel so vulnerable right now, I don't think I can take rough handling at the moment. I feel that I need some gentle, non-judgmental support right now. I can always go outside to others for sanctimonious judgments and abusive criticism. But, I've come to expect love and understanding from fellow survivors as has been shown time and again here on this board, as well as good and gentle constructive advice. Any help here for me right now, Brothers?

Sorry to sound so needy. I am somewhat stressed right now....... I am a liar..... I am extremely stressed right now.

Sincerely, Jess.
 
Hi Guys!

Everyday we can learn more. I have always admired survivors that moved on and married. You have to be sexual with your wife and I can understand that it could be full of worry, tension, and the feeling of being torn between genuinely loving your wife, but feeling that sex is a dirty thing. I suspect that it would be even more difficult for gay couples because the abuse is perhaps exactly the same that now is truly love and affection.

As a naive one here, I do remember one of my profs or colleagues saying something like; Sex starts the minute after orgasm, and forplay lasts all day. Then he said that the foreplay is the loving thoughts , the phones calls, the notes on the fridge, special surpirses and simply the growing in oneness that couples are destined to experience--I add, destined to create. Yeh I know, don't speak about what I am ignorant of.

But it truly does seem to me that a man has such a totally different experience with his beloved wife than he had from his perp. Your love grew gradually, and you have come to know this woman in such depth.

It just seem to me that you would be reminding yourself that the love-making with your wives is totally different. It is love, not violence. And it is tender, not harmful. (at least I am told that). Married sex, and committed sex, for our gay and lesbian friends, is the same.

Still, I doubt that I could have had sex at all after I was abused--both because of what was done to me and what I had to do, but also because I was taunted and called really awful names and I was tortured.
Still, I wonder, if one of the girls I had a terrible crush on had cuddled and kissed with me if maybe nature might not have overcome the harm that had been done to my outlook.

I suppose this is not much help. I really don't know about loving sex at all. But I still think that it is so different that it just should not be able to have any power over us, that is negative.

But, I am a virgin, I have never had a really romantic experience with a young lady and I have absolutely no ability to have a sexual experience now with anyone, no desire to even try with anyone as old as I am!!! So, at least I feel compassion for you guys, lots of respect and very much respect for the good women that you love and who love you.

Bob
 
From reading all of your posts, I am moved by the depth of emotional growth and expression that you have expressed. Sexual intimacy is a subject that I have struggled with. My longest and most loving relationship brought many issues relating to my abuse to the surface. As I look back she and I parted sexually far before the relationship ended. I don't even know if I like sex! I need to be in control so much that being in the moment swepted up in the passion is something I watch on the TV and almost study as I really have no idea what that feels like.

Currently, I find my self in Toronto, new to the city, unemployed, with out any support systems and few friends. The depression that I have fought with for the past fifteen years is raging inside of me threatening to destroy my fragile self worth, the unending body pain radiating inside my body.

Sex with another person seams unthinkable, fighting every day to not sink into the abyss. I, at times, crave the touch of another, that safe tactile connection of love and concern. But I feel like damaged goods, inside of a young body riddled with depression and self-dought in all aspects of my self. Trying to find work with these feelings inside of me is proving to be a challenge I seam to be loosing.

I reading an excellent book on male depression called. "I don't want to talk about it; overcoming the secret legacy of male depression" by Terrence Real.

It is helping but every day is still a struggle. I wish all of us love and peace

Paul
 
________
CAUTION
________

WOW! You guys are in the middle of a place I still struggle to find words for. What words I do find are so packed with shame that they never fully form. It leaves me feeling wasted.

I will add more later. It is going to be a full blown composition because I want to make sure I've stated what I wanted to. I want to do what you just did Dave.

Bless you Kieran, Dave, Jess and Bob.

Here again when I try to find words my thoughts go into a pinball machine pattern of one reaction catapulting me headlong into the next, and before I can grasp what has just happened I'm onto the next issue. That's what I call my adolescense.

Nothing gets resolved.

The moment has ended.

I join the realm of the perpetual walking wounded.

Dave, I felt like the experience you describe was because of the double whammy of first the velvet glove molestations by my big brother, then the attempts at seduction by my mother ( I just stunned myself that I just wrote that about my mother, still.) I have to rethink this after what you've said Dave.

In My head was the Madonna thing that was the defense for what my mother was doing to me. Her taking me to bed was my problem not hers.

I believe I was supposed to initiate something sexual with her so she could say thats all men want and I would be her biggest disappointment.

I believe she was also testing me to see if I was gay because she also became aware of my experience with my brother and saw it as simple homosexuality. This was also grossly inappropriate on her part.

If I protested I would be forced to say why. There was no way I could have gone there. It would have acknowledged what she was doing to me. Again I could disappoint her by sexualizing her " devoted love" for me.

Having been raised Catholic I wanted to be christlike. To me that meant asexuality. It fit my reaction to my mother. I married a woman who was chided, as an adolescent bookworm, with the nickname B.V.M.(Blessed Virgin Mary)also an asexual architype. Iwas scripted with the role of Christ, and she was scripted with the role of Holy Mother...what's wrong with this picture? How did we ever make it?...

My defenses protected me well, but at a very high price.

It has always been painful to want to initiate sex with my wife. I felt like I was sullying our relationship. I felt akin to a rapist too.

It is still a struggle to separate my relationship with her, my wife, from my experience with my mother. Especially in bed. Add to that my experience with my brother and I get the pinball machine effect.

Approach/avoidance has been the hallmark of my realtionship with my wife. I love her and she loves me. The pain has been lifelong.

I'm still too embarrassed to describe the visual fantasy acrobatics that would go on in my mind in order to achieve sexual intimacy with my wife. I described the fantasies once to a therapist, and my experience with her was that I felt labelled by her. Again this was at a time when much less was understood about the effects of such trauma as ours.

Dave your experience here comes so very close to mine.

The aging process is compounding the issues all the more. The pressure I put on myself to perform is so defeating.
 
Dear Paul:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings. The following are hugs for your -- (((((Paul))))).
I want you to know that you are not alone. I too have been unemployed and have felt the pangs of depression. Somehow, pangs is not a strong enough word to describe it, but I am sure you understand what I mean to say. Brother, although you feel that you are with any support systems and few friends. You need to know that we are your support system for right now. We are here to support you and to support each other. You have been a support to me in the reply you posted tonight. Thank you.

Thank you also to Dave, Kieran, Don, Bob, and RJD. You guys share so much love and concern in your writing. You share from your own experiences and the pain you felt. when you do this it helps me and others to know that we all have similar experiences and we are therefore not alone to bear our burdens by ourselves. We help each other bear these burdens and we are all in turn lifted up by one another. Our loads are lightened and we are filled with Hope for healing and recovery.

Thank you all for sharing. It has meant so much to me. Thanks for everything, guys. Sincerely, Jess.
 
For RJD:

Brother, I notice you are from Chicago, IL. Are you going to the Pilgrim Park Retreat in April? I just decided today to go and I am registered for the week-end retreat. It will be my first Male Survivor retreat and I am truly excited about it.

I hope you are going. You are so close geographically. I live in California and I don't yet know how I am going to get there. However, I am registered. I have thrown my hat over the fence so to speak. So I will have to work out how I am getting there. I hope you decide to go. Maybe I'll get to meet you in person.

Anybody else going to the April week-end retreat in Illinois? Let me know. Can't wait to meet all of you my, Brothers!

Sincerely, Jess.
 
Kieran,
You have started an excellent post!

Jess,
I have this crazy mental picture of all women being like the Madonna (Michaelangelo's - not the pop singer/actress) and too pure, holy, and too untouchable to by touched by human hands, expecially by a horny male like I am sometimes. Then at other times I have an image that if I am making love to a woman, she is behaving like (please pardon my bluntness here) a "whore".
Click to expand...
I've tried to explain this to some close friends and my T but it always comes out somewhat different than what I intended. The way you describe it is perfect. It also brings tears to my eyes. Thanks.
Mike
 
Mike posted this-

I'm still too embarrassed to describe the visual fantasy acrobatics that would go on in my mind in order to achieve sexual intimacy with my wife.
Click to expand...
And it's true for me, I can't even ask my wife to have sex with me in any way at all, I'm finding it hard to even write that last bit. I know that loving couples, and knowing some of the young single guys I work with - them too, just ask.
All I have to to do is say "fancy a quicky ?" or something like that, perhaps a bit more romantic then ;) but you know what I'm getting at - it's NORMAL !!
And I've NEVER been able to to do it, neither do I speak when we do make love, I would never dare to suggest doing something I liked or asking what she liked. I rarely kiss her during love making.
I hate it, and I then hate myself for being this way.

We have spoken about this and I did suggest she makes the first move sometimes, but she feels very wary about that because I hide my feeling so well ( years of practice ) that she's never sure if she might trigger me or something. It a rock and a hard place...........

And Ignore the maths here -
I'm 49yo and been married for 38 of them.
Click to expand...
"last wik I cudnt spel 'enjunier' now I is wun"

I've never been been good with numbers :D

Dave ;)
 
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