masturbation, getting caught, etc.

masturbation, getting caught, etc.
R

roadrunner

Registrant
Brothers,

In a thread in the Family and Friends forum the subject of masturbation came up, and specifically getting caught at it. I commented that although my family was pretty liberal about the subject and my Dad told me its okay for a boy to enjoy his body that way, still, I was very secretive (I mean, not just private) and when my Mom caught me one time I was totally horrified and humiliated. I added the comment:

Why is it always your MOM who catches you???
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JohnSurvived picked up on this and posted the following:

It's not always mothers. When I started masturbating (having already been showed several times over the preceding few years by my brother), I was also quite secretive about it. My brother never 'caught' me at it, but he was aware whenever I was just a little longer than usual in the bathroom, or when I had any door closed. And he'd want to know what I'd been up to, of course.

Also, when I was somewhere in the 15-17 age range, I was in bed masturbating to some gay porn magazine involving two long-haired guys (it was 70s stuff). My dad walked in, and I hastily pulled up my sheets and comforter, knocking the magazine on the floor in the process. I was scared shitless, and Dad clearly understood what I'd been doing before he came in without knocking. I kept thinking he'd leave, but he didn't, wouldn't go. He walked over to the bed, looked down at the magazine, mistook the long hair for a woman, and said "Oh, she's giving him a blowjob." He kept lingering; I was shaking. I finally said, very quietly, "Get out." He looked hurt, and also embarrassed, as if I'd reminded him of something he'd forgotten, like propriety, or sensitivity, or concern. But he did go.
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I thought that this was worth answering, and in fact I thought the whole subject might make a worthwhile thread, so with Johns agreement heres my reply to him, which I will mark off as a quote.

John,

It sounds to me like your Dad was caught totally by surprise and was very embarrassed, with no idea what to say to his son in such a situation. I think the way you reacted just goes to show how incredibly sensitive this subject is for a boy. For a boy who has been abused it must be a lot worse, or so it seems to me.

After the abuse ended, when I was 14, I was terribly conflicted over this. If I masturbated and all went well and I had a great time, I would feel overwhelmed with guilt and shame, thinking something like, yeah, this is what got him interested in me in the first place, and now, look, Im doing it to myself (that is, as if masturbating proved that just by being a boy I had made myself a target for abuse). On the other hand, other times I would do it and it would all be a failure. My head would fill up with images of things the abuser did to me and I would just stop, feeling guilty and ashamed at being a sexual person (that is, if I enjoyed even this, by myself, I was just confirming everything he had said to me about liking the abuse). And if I just tried to leave myself alone, which never lasted very long, I would again feel guilty: either for wanting to avoid it and failing, or wanting to avoid it in the first place. No matter what happened (or didnt happen) it messed me up so bad.
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I think this topic is worth talking about because it touches on a big issue for survivors: shame. I bet this is an area that a lot of survivors have had trouble with in their lives, but find it difficult to talk about it. Whatever we did or didnt do, we were just kids trying to cope with terrible and traumatic events in our past. We have nothing to be ashamed of if this trauma continued to affect us as teenagers or adults.

Much love,
Larry
 
Larry,

Thank you for beginning this thread. You're right, it's material that touches a number of extremely important issues, and I thank you for suggesting it. I had no hesitation in saying "Please do" when you asked to move it over here.

A number of reactions have surfaced in me as I reread my words and your new writing:

1. That I wasn't 'caught' doing anything. I was interrupted, I was intruded upon, I was disturbed in a private moment. I was not caught.

2. I had read enough "Health & Marriage" books of the right kind as an adolescent to understand that what I was doing was OK, and that I wasn't harming myself. I can still remember chuckling when I read my Boy Scout handbook, which talked about the need to overcome or avoid behaviors that cause worry. I wasn't worrying, and I recognized the dated quality of the handbook's advice even then. Masturbating was my time, when I could have myself for myself and not be someone else's -- it was probably my first survival tactic. I wasn't doing it with a family member, or with another boy or man -- those acts carried huge loads of shame and guilt, but not masturbation.

3. I have never once, never, thought of my abuse when masturbating. This is noteworthy to me today, as a reminder that the negative side of the experience was greater then than the physical pleasure I was taking from my sessions with my brother. It is possible that developing my own sexual fantasies during masturbation was one of the paths I took to "put it out of my mind." To the extent that ignoring the abuse is unhelpful, well, this was unhelpful. But, to the extent that it gave me some space in which to experience my own sexuality, and develop as my own sexual being -- it was totally awesome and very very helpful. Today, when other men speak of "discovering" masturbation when they were teens, I feel some envy and jealousy. I would have preferred to discover it; I would have liked that opportunity, and I would rather I had not been "taught" how to do it by my brother. Still, there is no rearranging the past, and I did, to some extent, get to use masturbation for what children and teens actually need it for. I certainly used it for what I needed it for, then.

4. Finally, fathers. I have discussed the incident when dad walked in in therapy, and the overwhelming feelings that were in me that day related to the fact that I'd finally gotten my own room, that sex with my brother was finally over, and now, here was dad. I was so scared, so confused about what he was up to, why he wouldn't leave, why he seemed to be trying to effect a nonchalant demeanor but was clearly anything but nonchalant. And I think you're right: my dad didn't know what I'd been through with my brother; he had barged in on his late-teen son in an act we'd never really had a father-son talk about, and I suppose he was trying to find the words to say what he wanted to say on the subject. I could still fault him for, perhaps, not turning, saying "We can talk about this another time" and leaving. But, retrospectively, I think he probably did not know how my heart was sledgehammering in my chest, and how just plain damned SCARED I was that he was in my room, my pants were down, and I was lying under hastily arranged bedcovers with an erection. This leads me to:

5. An appeal to all the many, many survivor dads who come here. How have you handled this with your children? How do you plan to handle it if it hasn't come up? Is it different for sons versus daughters? How is/was your spouse involved in educating your child?

Thanks, Larry!

John
 
John,

Thanks for all your thoughts above. I agree: we weren't "caught", we were intruded upon. But at the time I sure felt like I had been caught!

I remember that Boy Scout manual :) - the edition that droned on about how "real boys" don't masturbate, drink or use drugs.

My own messed up feelings about masturbating probably had to do with the fact that I was introduced to it - as well as to every other thing about sex - by the abuser, beginning at age 11. I linked it with my feelings of fear, guilt and confusion about the abuse, though, for quite some time, I didn't figure out that either the abuse or masturbating had something to do with sex.

My wife and I talked to both of our kids about sex. I guess my son was about 8 when we had our first talk, and of course he advised me that he already knew everything :rolleyes: . Within about a minute it was clear that wasn't the case; he was nervous and I found it difficult to calm him down. We talked about masturbation and I told him he shouldn't worry about it, it was okay to do it, and all boys do it regardless of what they tell each other to the contrary.

On later occasions we talked about other things. I always asked him did he have any questions, he always said no of course not, and within a minute the questions were coming thick and fast.

We have always been very careful to knock before entering his room, and in fact we don't enter until he tells us to come in. I think he really does need, for all sorts of reasons, a place in the house that is entirely his - so long as there's enough bare floor to walk on, guitar amps are turned off, and mold isn't growing anywhere. There have been times he has been adventuresome and has been "inaugurating" some other room in the house; that has led to some close calls, but somehow we have managed to avoid walking in on him.

I clicked with your sentiment of wishing that you had discovered your body on your own; I feel very much the same way. But I feel pretty good about the fact that the troubles I went through seem to have made me very sensitive to how my son might feel and what he needed to know and hear.

Much love,
Larry
 
My father taught me to masterbate him when I was 4 years old. Not knowing any better I continued in that role for 10 years.

When I started doing it for my own benifit I made dam sure I was never caught.

However - Occasionally I was triggered while "in the act" and always immediately lost the will to complete.

I resent that. Having him hooked into my memory so much I couldnt wank without seeing his face. Thats one reason I began using porn. If I didnt have to rely in my own mental imagery he (his memory) didnt impose on my private times.

Eventually, with the help of a T (1992-3) and some great girlfriends I beat that to.

Now I dont have to masterbate. I have a fulfilling relationship and a great wife. I have not masturbated for 6 months, I dont need to.

If I needed to, I would. No worries there.

Its free, its mine and it feels good.
 
For me, it was taboo to do this and I remember my father making fun of my older brother constantly. I kept it hidden although my older brother was molesting me on daily basis and so was my father...so it wasn't like no one knew.

But my father would constantly and continually ask me if I did this (see I can't even write the word). And then he would want to know how often, how I did it, what I did, etc...details. And these questions were almost daily if not a few times a week.

But it was like everyone knew it was going on and at the same time it was secretive and taboo... and well seeing my father make fun of my older brother I didn't want to get caught.

For a long time in my recovery, I used to do this a lot...sometimes 3 or even 5 times a day. I got caught one time doing it in front of a boy at school who was my friend. He just spread the news around to everyone. I would do this in the bathroom at school, in the shower for Phys Ed...all the time worried I was going to get caught (and it might have been some of the thrill/shame for me doing it in public places). Fortunately Zoloft came along and helped me stop the excessive and addictive behavior this did for me.

Now, with my partner of course, I'm learning it is all healthy and if done in a respectful, caring, nurting way, it is a very good thing. But the shame, humiliation that I went through as a kid has really made sex hard for me. If it wasn't for my caring and patient partner, I would have never gotten to where I am today.

And I believe everything I went through led to me acting out in some very dangerous ways. Sex was not ever appropiate in our house. From the time I was forced at the age of 8 to watch my parents having sex to my father's constant questioning and demonstration of these things and then on top of it, the almost daily molestation... I'm surprised I'm even able to have a relationship.

Anyway, thanks for starting this thread because it was good for me to revisit this stuff from where I am at today. I needed to do this (maybe one day I can actually write or say the word that this post talks about).

Don
 
Don,

maybe one day I can actually write or say the word that this post talks about
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If it helps, you should know that when I typed the word out here I noticed it every single time.

I was able to talk about masturbation with only one person, my best friend, but he and I were abused together for a year so there weren't many secrets left between us. Guess that shows what a powerful and incredibly sensitive subject masturbation was in the sixties.

Much love,
Larry
 
Larry, JapanZen, RelaxingPiano:

Thank you all for your posts; I am very moved to know that others' spaces were also invaded -- it's the primal message of "You are not alone in your experience" that is the heartbeat of MS. Thank you for honoring this space with your trust. I was brought to tears by identification with the horror of betrayal some of you experienced. And, Larry, I was also moved to tears by this:
I feel pretty good about the fact that the troubles I went through seem to have made me very sensitive to how my son might feel and what he needed to know and hear.
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The thought of a father sensitive to his son's feelings, understanding of and responsive to his needs, is so foreign to me, and I so long to fill the hole this left me. It sounds like your son is quite lucky in his father.

John
 
Larry,

I never was caught masturbating. We always had our privacy in one of the bathrooms. My parents very seldom came into my room at home.

It's funny how a perfectly normal activity can have such a stigma attached to it. I remember my grandmother telling my cousin that if he played with his, he would go blind. My abuse began when I was 8 yrs old and lasted until I was 12. When I was 11 yrs old, I went for an eye exam and had to get glasses. Part of me truly believed that my eyes were bad because of the sexual things I was forced to participate in. Just something else for a kid to be afraid of.
 
I've been thinking on this thread the last couple of days. Somewhat perplexed. I know this will sound bizarre, but I honestly cannot remember masturbating as a "recreation" as a boy. I've been wondering if that means that I did and just can't remember it, or if I really didn't. Seems like it would be something I would remember doing? I feel weird now. I remember doing it as an adult, but not as a child or teenager. Maybe it's irrelevant, but seems odd to me.

I lost my virginity at 17 with my then 15 year old girlfriend (who eventually became my first wife), and I can vividly remember that experience. So it's not like I'm blocking out sexual memories from the past. I can also vividing remember specific scenes from the SA. But as to solo MB, just can't recall doing it. Our house was an old victorian one, and I do remember that the bathroom had no lock on it. My older brothers and I shared a bedroom until I got into my mid-teen years when I got my own bedroom. Maybe the terror of being found out was too great. God knows I was terrified of my father.
 
I have read this post at least a half dozen times since it was started - what is talked about here is an issue that really eats away at the younger side of me... - I guess it is time to post about it as others have courageously done here...

I knew all about masturbation by the age of 4 thanks to my uncle...

for some reason (don't know why?) - I did'nt start masturbating at home till after the abuse by the uncle stopped (at age 9) - I was fully functional by then

me and my brother had bunk beds that where in an open room at the top of the stairs (no doors - no privacy) - I can remember him catching me jerking off one night in bed (we had bunk beds - and I had the top bunk) - it seemed to really interest him - I could 'shoot' and he could'nt yet (even though he was 16 months older than me) - that night was the start of me and my brother doing many many years of sexual things together...

my dad did'nt have the 'sex' talk with me till I was well into my teens - and of course by then I knew everything that there was to know about it already - cause I had done it all already...

To the best of my memory - my parents never caught me masturbating - but I am sure that they knew that I was - there was no privacy in that house - none at all - the bedroom was an open room at the top of the stairs - the bathroom was in one corner - the stairs leading down in the middle - and a hallway to my folks room in the other corner - they used to walk through to the bathroom all the time wearing nothing - or next to nothing - and I would be laughed at for not wanting them to see me naked - I can remember them saying many times that the naked body is nothing to be ashamed of - and yet I was ashamed...

TJ jeff
 
Eddie,

I've been wondering if that means that I did and just can't remember it, or if I really didn't. Seems like it would be something I would remember doing? I feel weird now. I remember doing it as an adult, but not as a child or teenager. Maybe it's irrelevant, but seems odd to me.
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From what you have said on the DB from time to time I can imagine that you would have every reason to suppress this memory as a boy. "My brother did things to me, now I am doing things to myself", .... etc. The fact that you don't remember anything about an activity that almost all boys do strikes me as VERY relevant and perhaps worth exploring.

That said, maybe the result will be that you just didn't do it. But in all honesty that would be pretty astonishing, wouldn't it?

Much love,
Larry
 
TJ jeff,

I can remember them saying many times that the naked body is nothing to be ashamed of - and yet I was ashamed
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I remember going through that with my son. I always stressed that his body was nothing to be ashamed about, that his questions were all legitimate, that masturbation was okay and almost all boys do it, that yes, Daddy did it and so did [names of every male relative he knew, which he asked about one after another ;) ], etc. But damn! I could tell he was always embarrassed and maybe ashamed when we talked, at least at the beginning.

Much love,
Larry
 
Even after I was abused I didn't understand what the big deal was. It took a buddy to show me what masturbation was at about age 12 before I put it together, and from there my interest grew on its own. However, my abuse did come to mind frequently, and it didn't bother me because by that time I had convinced myself it was no big deal, and might have actually been a good thing, since I went with my abuser again at age 12 only to tell him no at the last second.

My mother liked to open the door to my room without knocking, usually about fifteen minutes after I told her I was going to bed. It was a pocket (sliding) door that made quite a bit of noise when it was opened, so I almost always had enough warning to get myself covered up before she could stick her head in to say good night.

The only truly close call I remember was when she opened the door immediately after orgasm one night, and I almost didn't get covered in time, and made a mess worse when I did. She asked me what was wrong because I must have been glaring at her. I simply told her she needed to start knocking and waiting for an answer. She asked why she should do that, and I just said, "Because!" Nothing changed, though.

What surprised me was that she thought I was an innocent until she found my stash of magazines when I was 16. I think that was the most embarrassing time I had regarding sex and my parents, other than walking in on them... and I won't go there.

I don't recall my father ever coming close to catching me other than asking me what was taking so long in the shower a couple times. I don't remember ever having the sex conversation with him either. I got my general information from peers, school and my mom. The specifics I got from my peers and self-discovery.
 
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