Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**

Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
lots to think about here tonight, so I'll start with this

One (of many) areas that have been difficult for us sexually has been his lack of comfort/willingness to communicate with me in bed. Because his abuser was always talking/describing/verbalizing what was going on for him (his abuser) when he was abusing Brant, having either of us say anything about what we're feeling,thinking, fantasizing about, or what we'd like at the time, etc, is a HUGE trigger for him. Basically, that door is CLOSED!
I can't remember EVER asking my wife or any previous girlfriends to 'do' something sexually, either to me or me to them. I just can't communicate when having sex.
I was also groomed to talk during my 4 years of abuse, I would ask them what they wanted to do, ask if I could do something. I ended up suggesting and asking that we tried different positions, asking for group sex. That's not normal for a child, and it's burned into my memory.

Either way, we are being trained to learn to live with this also. I call it training because it really is so out of the ordninary when you dont understand it emotionally.
How sad is that statement? 'OUR' abuse reaches out an affects so many others.
Can a partner ever understand it? I haven't got a clue really, some understanding is certainly possible, but the feelings of rejection and the doubts and fears that must surround that are something that I can't understand fully.
'we' have to find a deeper level of communication to make the lack of understanding that we both feel meet up. Difficult, but worth the effort.

One was an act of violence and control and the other love.
this is something that although I / we might understand it - logically - we somehow still fail to separate the two.

Someone replied that it sounded to her as if a robust, healthy and vibrant sex life with my partner was really important to me (it is) and that, if so, I was doomed to never have that with my current partner due to his SA history.
Why admit defeat?


...about the SWITCH, how do therapist/counselors work that angle?
Even though I'm working as a support counsellor and read and learn all I can, this is still a very illusive thing.
I guess it's one of those "aha" moments that depends on the individual, and their therapist.
If I find it, I'll be rich :D

Dave
 
while looking for something else I came across a very long and very good article that I downloaded some time back.
All of it is worth reading, follow the link to do that, but I'll post a section of it here as it relates to this topic.

This section is quite long as well, but worth reading. The references can be found in the online article.
Dave.

https://www.txdirect.net/~dmoore/personal/secret.htm

Telling The Secret: Channels of Communication for the Recovering Survivor of Child Sexual Abuse

A Literature Review

by Don Moore
mailto:[email protected]

COMMUNICATION, INTIMACY, AND SEXUAL ABUSE

Interdependence of Communication and Intimacy

Stewart (4) states that "interpersonal communication can happen between [people] when each of [them] makes available some of what makes [them] persons and when each is aware of some of what makes the other a person too." He defines intimacy as "a process in which [people] attempt to get close to [each other]; to explore similarities (and differences) in the ways [they] both think, feel, and behave" (Stewart 25). This "making available" and "exploration" require, at the very least, a nominal level of openness and vulnerability on the part of each person engaged in communication and striving for intimacy. The violation of both mind and body that survivors have been forced to endure consumes much of the psychic energy needed to establish personal togetherness and blocks many of the pathways that can lead them to sharing their lives with others. Intimacy requires self-awareness, responsibility for one's feelings, and vulnerability-all of which are very difficult for the . . . survivor (Blume 253).

The pathology of the survivor's interpersonal communication may be characterized by the projection of motives onto others (Engel 32) [implicit personality attribution (Stewart 145)]; a hypersensitivity to a breach of trust or forceful (seen as aggressive) behavior (Engel 11,15,60; Bass 36,191; Yudkin 247; Jehu 108-109; Ratican 34); self-doubt (Engel 25,45); avoidance of the exposure of "the secret" (Jehu 155); intensely self-denigrating, angry, and frightened internal monologue (Ratican 34; Engel 12,15,26; Yudkin 248; Jehu 107-108; Schultz 146; Bradshaw 48); the inability to ask for needs to be met (Bass 27,191; Engel 15; Yudkin 249; Ratican 35-36); and explosive anger (Goodwin 66; Ratican 34; Engel 15).

Affected Relationships

A shroud of betrayal and anger is cast over a boundless range of relationships as the result of direct or complicit involvement in sexual abuse. Survivors of child sexual abuse learn at an early stage in life to distance themselves from their emotions to avoid the pain of what is happening to them. This distancing results in a significant internal and external communicative isolation of survivors from themselves and others. Personalities dissociate, repress, even split in response to the violation of trust, shame, fear, and self-blame that are the daily internal reality for sexual abuse survivors. Self may become separated from the body, the emotions, the experience of childhood, even from other internal selves who are conceived of the trauma (Schetky 42-45; Engel 15; Yudkin 248). The bonds between self and other that may have existed or might have formed are severely damaged if not lost completely. These manifestations of and adaptations to the trauma of childhood sexual abuse often result in obtrusive personality characteristics that inhibit social interaction and self-disclosure, consequently seriously restricting communication and the formation of intimate relationships.

Numerous studies have found that survivors have significantly higher levels of difficulty forming and maintaining intimate relationships than their nonabused counterparts (Ratican 33). "Because [survivors] perceive the entire external world as dangerous and overwhelming, they do not have the autonomy to move toward new objects, and determinedly avoid significant relationships" (Schultz 148). The insidiousness of many sexually abusive behaviors, added to the already covert and repressed nature of the problem, compounds the difficulty of gauging its depth and readily identifying the dynamics of the interplay between the psychology of the abused and his or her style and level of success in the communication process and intimate relationships.

Survivors generally have difficulty trusting others (Engel 15; Bass 36; Yudkin 247; Engel 11; Jehu 108-109; Engel 60; Ratican 34; Bass 191), and they tend to be secretive and evasive (Engel 15; Jehu 107-108,137,155; Bass 108; Ratican 35; Schultz 148; Schetky 47) and to withhold information (Engel 15). In both casual and sustained relationships, survivors tend to remain distant and aloof (Engel 15). They feel isolated and different from others (Engel 15; Jehu 107-108,137; Schultz 148). Survivors find it difficult to give or receive affection (Engel 15), and, what appears to be contradictory, they often oversexualize, putting an emphasis on the physical aspect of relationships (Jehu 133; Blume 216-217).

Many survivors help others to the point of not taking care of themselves (Engel 15), and they have difficulty communicating their desires, thoughts, and feelings to others (Engel 15; Bass 27; Bass 191; Yudkin 249; Ratican 35-36). Despite the possibility that survivors may be selfless "helpers," at the same time, they may have difficulty being empathic (Engel 15).

Many survivors have difficulty with (Engel 15) and feel victimized by authority. This type of relational conflict, as well as many other factors, may induce anger/rage outbursts and/or mood swings (Engel 16) in a surviving sexual child abuse victim.

"Sexual abuse causes children [and, subsequently, adults] to feel like `damaged goods' (Urquiza and Capra 108). They feel dirty, evil, and rotten," (Engel 12) worthy of no one's love and deserving of and expecting rejection (Engel 11). The survivor's self-esteem and self-image are likely to be distorted, causing further damage to relational functioning. Many have reported feeling ugly, worthless, and stupid. They see themselves as failures, losers, and they constantly sabotage their success in all areas of life (Engel 15). A tendency towards self-blame, shame, and self-denigration (Engel 12,15; Jehu 107-108; Schultz 146; Bradswhaw 48; Ratican 34) often manifests itself in survivors repeatedly becoming involved with destructive, abusive people (Engel 15; Jehu 137). Repeated failures in relationships spawn a cycle in which victims turn their anger (deserved by the perpetrator) towards themselves (Engel 11), heaping more fuel on the fires of their self-defeating anger.

Affected Sexual Intimacy

Abuse survivors' potential for enjoyable sexuality is twisted when the perpetrator robs them of their innocence - "introducing them to adult sexuality before they are capable of coping with it" (Engel 11). As children, they are prone to eroticization, causing them to act inappropriately sexual with their peers and adults (Schetky 41-45). This may carry over into sexual promiscuity in adolescence and adulthood. Sex can become "compulsive as a self-destructive behavior, a means of releasing anger, or a bargaining chip to obtain attention, money, or security (Ratican 34-35). As reported by Engel (15), other sexual maladies of which survivors may suffer are lack of sexual desire and/or enjoyment; sexual dysfunction (anorgasmic, impotent, premature ejaculation); attraction to illicit sexual activities; anger/disgust at public affection, sexuality, nudity or partial nudity; the tendency to be sexually manipulative; and addiction to sexual activities (including pornography).

Keystone Inhibitors of Communications and Intimacy

Engel (60) states that sexual abuse is probably the most emotionally loaded inhibitor to communications and the surrounding atmosphere of trust and equality that must exist for intimacy to occur. Amid the psychological aberrations of the survivor's world are two key concepts whose mixture acts as a formidable barrier to successful interpersonal communication and, therefore, intimacy. These bywords for the unconscious dysfunction of the survivor of sexual abuse are trust and secrecy.

The Violation of Trust

The building blocks of intimacy-giving and receiving, trusting and being trustworthy-are learned in childhood. If [a child] was abused, [his/her] natural trust was skewed by adults who misused [his/her] innocence. [They] grew up with confusing messages about the relationship between sex and love, trust, and betrayal (Bass 36,191).

If the abuser was a member of the child's family, a boundary was crossed and a significant bond of trust was broken. Ellen Ziskind, a Brookline, Massachusetts psychotherapist states that, "Without basic trust, you can't have good relationships, you have no self-esteem." (in Yudkin 247). Some experts assert that sexual victimization by teachers, therapists, and doctors, as well as that by fathers, grandfathers, and uncles, involves the same disastrous betrayal of trust as if the abuser were a member of the family (Yudkin 247).

"Survivors have trouble trusting others appropriately and generally have a poor sense of personal boundaries. They may trust too readily, setting themselves up for further abuse, or they may fear intimacy, hold others at arm's length, and become controlling in relationships. They may use hostility to protect themselves from expected rejection by rejecting others first. Survivors may suffer from a conflict between craving intimacy and dependency but needing to control and manipulate to feel safe in relationships" (Ratican 34).
 
Peaceful,

To me, the existence of the article is encouraging-- it means people are SEEING what's happening, validating the experiences and feelings of these survivors, even when those experiences paint a disturbing picture-- and it validates me, and my experiences with him-- I can reconcile and accept some of his difficulties, and support him with a greater understanding.

When my boyfriend disclosed, I was so shaken by his grief and vulnerability, and so worried about doing the wrong thing next, that I went looking for answers and found these articles that read like a personal history. I mean, even now my first thought on reading that excerpt is "Who's been looking in my windows?" After so long with no answers-- well the answers you get here aren't easy by any means, but they are what they are. They are tools-- and when you put a tool in my hand, then I have hope.

SAR
 
beautiful disaster
Personally when I have spoke to my husband about it- I try to get him to realize that the experience he HAD when he was a small child was not related to what adults have consentually.
Stride says many of the same things I have to say. You can only speak this with your actions-- no amount of talking to him is going to get him to realize it-- it's something you get or you don't.

For me and my boyfriend, the most effective thing I could do to send the message that my desire for him did not equal abuse was to make his boundaries my top priority-- to back off when and where he needed me to, to make sure that he got the non-sexual loving touch he needed (this was the hardest part for me), and to "close the door" on some of my own expectations for our intimate life-- sometimes our "wish list" is the elephant in the room if you know what I mean.

Of course it is a lot easier to accept that knowing that my boyfriend does at least recognize that intimacy is a real emotional/self-esteem issue for me rather than a purely physical one-- something he didn't realize before, and again, no amount of talking could get him to understand.

Also in communicating with him, I've realized how much of what I've always perceived as rejection/unwillingness he intends to come across as an act of caring-- in not wanting to disappoint or take advantage, he tends to go overboard withdrawing from me-- however well it's meant, no woman wants to hear "Hi honey, I'm home... and by the way, I don't want to be intimate with you later this evening."-- so we have talked about why he does that and what he could do instead.

If any part of healing is truly a product of the journey itself, I believe it has to be this-- so many of the elements that make sexual intimacy possible are only picked up through healing-- without self-trust, self-esteem, communication skills, healthy boundaries, understanding emotions, etc., you can't even start to deal with any of the issues we're talking about. None of the conversations my boyfriend and I have about sex would have been possible 18 months ago. As partners, we have to trust that things are changing and progressing all the time, just out of our sight.

SAR
 
Peaceful
I'm glad you read that, and maybe read the full article as well. Even if it doesn't paint a very pretty picture.
And although I suspect that your comment was a bit tongue in cheek, it does raise some interesting questions.

It's not all doom and gloom though, no matter how many dysfunctional things we can pick out of articles such as that, and as SAR says "Who's been looking in my windows?" we also see hope.

That's just how it felt when I started reading everything I could about CSA and the problems we experience as adults, I wondered how they knew so much about me?
But slowly I began to realise that when I did recognise my problems in these learned peoples writings that I was not alone, and that my problems actually had a cause.
If there's a cause, and then an effect, then there's generally a way to reverse the process, or stall the 'cause'.
Whatever way we look at it, finding valididity for the cause - my abuse and upbrining - led me to find ways of halting the cycle that I was locked into, the very rapid cycle of being triggered by the cause and trying vainly to smother the triggering memories by using some king of crude and ineffective coping mechanism.

That process has worked for most of my problems, I don't act out sexually any more, don't even think about it now. My flashbacks and panic attacks have subsided to a state where they are easy to overcome and control. My only remaining problem is being intimate with my wife, and the same process WILL work for that as well.
The reason I still have the problem is that I've only just began to address it seriously, up until now the other problems were more important to me. I had to prioritise them because there was no way I could do it all at once, which is the point SAR makes here.

If any part of healing is truly a product of the journey itself, I believe it has to be this-- so many of the elements that make sexual intimacy possible are only picked up through healing-- without self-trust, self-esteem, communication skills, healthy boundaries, understanding emotions, etc., you can't even start to deal with any of the issues we're talking about.
Part of the process of getting back to the 'cause' is aquiring the knowledge of the psychological process that my mind has used to arrive at the dysfunctional way I am, I can't change my thought process' without knowing 'why'.

Sometimes the knowledge is difficult, for many reasons. Most of it is written by psychologists for other psychologists, so we have to search hard for accessible knowledge. That article isn't the easiest to read in that respect though.
Also 'we' read this stuff, recognise something, and think "no way, that's just crazy stuff and I'm NOT crazy". So we deny the truth of what we read or hear, and believe me I did a lot of that. I once spent a whole session arguing with my therapist when he told me I had PTSD. I went away angry, and determined to prove him wrong so I read everything I could find on PTSD. The next session I apologised to him, he was right. But I had to prove it to myself and overcome my denial, I learned a valuable lesson from that.

So "yes, there is a great deal of hope" in that article. By reading things like that we're proving that there is hope, we would pass all this knowledge by if there was no hope.

Dave
 
Originally posted by Lloydy:
If any part of healing is truly a product of the journey itself, I believe it has to be this-- so many of the elements that make sexual intimacy possible are only picked up through healing-- without self-trust, self-esteem, communication skills, healthy boundaries, understanding emotions, etc., you can't even start to deal with any of the issues we're talking about. [/QUOTE]

My comment was a bit tongue and cheek. GLad you didn't read more into it!

I'm reading this tread perhaps from a different perspective. I have just begun dealing with my own issues of CSA after my oldest son molested my youngest son which is why I came to this site.

I have read many articles too when I say "this describes me!". After so many years of minimizing my SA experiencen and it's effects i.e. "it wasn't such a big deal since it happened only once", I finally had to admit that it was the cause of my problems with sexuality.

Surprisingly, at least for me, I've had more problems the last ten years. Somewhere along the way, things took a turn for the worse, and perhaps it's a cumulative effect. Perhaps it's more relationship issues, but the sexual intimacy issues were there early on.

Here's the link in case there are other female survivors out there on THE EFFECTS OF CHILDHOOD SEXUAL ABUSE ONFEMALE SEXUALITY : A MODEL OFINTERVENTION.

https://www.aic.gov.au/conferences/rvc/marendaz.pdf

The description of symptoms was far too familiar and explained a lot of the dynamic between my husband and I. It has helped to understand the effect or process.

One of the dynamics maybe similar with male survivors as well:

In our clinical experience, we have found that survivors of childhoodsexual abuse often try to establish safety in their relationship by avoidance ie., they try toavoid all emotional and physical contact with their partner.

By avoiding contact, the womanis also avoiding intimacy and this protects her from any likelihood of sexual contact. Maltzand Holman (1987) found that often survivors and partners end up in an unfortunate cycle. For example, a female survivor begins to withdraw sexually because of unresolved trustissues and sexual problems (loss of sexual desire and enjoyment, etc) from the child sexual abuse. Her male partner takes this as apersonal rejection and stops expressing loving feelings; he may also become angry andsexually demanding. The survivor then feels guilty and pressured. She interprets thereactions of the partner as proof that he is unresponsive to her emotional needs. The survivorpulls back emotionally and physically even further. The cycle continues with emotional andphysical distance increasing.


The treatment at the end of the end of the article I found to be a mixed bag.

In working with women who have sexual difficulties as a result of sexual abuse as children,the process is often a long and torturous journey for the therapist, the woman and her partner..

Perhaps it's not for the faint hearted.

I just started therapy a month of ago and found it helpful to bring in this article to my t not so much for the treatment, but for the descriptive characteristics.

I see a long road ahead, but hope that the healing process will bring about a change in how my body responds to sexuality, cus I've been avoid for a long time and my poor hus is pretty frustrated and feels that I've rejected him.

Now as I look back, I see how I've isolated myself so much. But I feel stronger as I sense I'm on the road to recovery and find that encouraging.

Peaceful
 
Peaceful
I must admit that I haven't looked deeply into CSA and its effects on adult women, I concentrate on male abuse.
But the little I have read about it shows many similarities, which I suppose is inevitable?

Dave
 
I havent been on here in quite awhile. My husband is in therapy...and even on the board now.

I just wanted to add something very amazing to this thread that may shed some light.
His T said it is very common to find a man suffering M/W syndrome will have a mother that was molested herself thus being a very 'hands-off' type parent due to her own abuse.
Just thought that was pretty significant and wanted to add it to this thread.
 
I read this thread very shortly after I first joined but it was too overwhelming for me to wrap my brain around. Today, it still is. I guess that means I have to take some serious time and re-read it and absorb it. So much of it is too familiar and it frightens me.

ROCK ON....Trish
 
What a surprise to see this topic resurface, and I've just read it all again and realised what a great one it is regarding the relationship between a survivor and partner.

And the latest post from BeautifulDisaster raises an interesting aspect that my friend, a non survivor, and I were talking about only yesterday. How our families influence our lives so much, and how little we realise it. Unless we're pushed into a position where we need to look back at what they did, and how they raised us.

I just wanted to add something very amazing to this thread that may shed some light.
His T said it is very common to find a man suffering M/W syndrome will have a mother that was molested herself thus being a very 'hands-off' type parent due to her own abuse.
Just thought that was pretty significant and wanted to add it to this thread.
My mother has always been a very cold and distant woman, she loves me and has always cared and provided for me and my brother, but there's never been any outward display of affection or emotion that either of us can ever remember.

Currently I'm having to deal with all the many cousins and remaining relatives from my mothers side of the family while I sort out a family will that affects us all, and oh boy is this a good way to find out about the family!
My mother has always had a bitter streak in her, there's always been an underlying sense of resentment that I'm coming to recognise as 'something' that has a long history, probably way back to her childhood.

That's something she shares with one other older brother, now dead, and my suspicion based upon family gossip is that 'something' happened between them.

Whatever happened this pair, out of eight, became bitter and resentful for all their lives.
This frame of mind then affects the lives of those around them, especially the children.

Thankfully my uncle had no legitamate kids, but his poisonous influence has affected some of my cousins who he dealt with a lot.
My mothers influence on my brother and I is huge, but it's something we only recognise now as adults, and both of us have been in therapy - for different reasons.

This poem says it all, it's my life in three verses.

Dave

Philip Larkin - This Be The Verse

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.
 
My gosh....sounds like my husband, his family ect. BUT I dont believe he highly esteems his mom. I think there's a lot of love/hate going on.But my problem w/ the whole situation is the hurt and resentment I feel towards him becuz of the sexuall relations we have. It seems the minute he fell in love w/ me his intamacy, sexuall techniques, lust for me, desire for me all waned out. It hurts soooooooo bad and our sex is virtually boring. He even has a hard time kissing me during sexuall relations. What I need to know is how to handle this. I have came rite out and told him, IM NOT YOUR MOM!!! I'm your wife. This has emotionally damaged me. I am trying to be understanding...but as selfish as it sounds, what about me? Am I just to die inside? :confused:
 
Native,

First, my guy and I are no longer together, and over the past several months I have worked hard to return my focus to where it belongs & can do some good: To myself, my own stuff, and developing/maintaining peace of mind. Meanwhile, my ex is back into cocaine, partying, and (as far as I can gather) one night stands with women he meets on the road (he's on tour with a very well known rock band).

From the few exchanges I've had with him over the past few months (generally I've been incommunicado and have refused to reply to the occasional emails/calls I get from him) it has become crystal clear that he is not looking at his own behaviour, learning from his mistakes or growing at all. In fact, even a couple of his longtime friends have observed that he seems boastful, arrogant and "quite full of himself" these days, telling everyone how great his life is now and how happy he is.

What they don't see is the stuff I have, even since we've split: the emails sent at 5 a.m. about his anxiety attacks, nightmares, depression, and sense of feeling totally disconnected from his feelings for others. I saw his Mom in May and she told me she is so happy to see him happy and "doing so well" these days. Denial, denial, DENIAL, all around. Sometimes it all leaves me wanting to just scream, but that's for me to work through.

All of this has finally and irrevocably brought the reality of my own previous state of denial into sharp focus. I am at last in that place where I realize how utterly destructive and futile it is to invest in a relationship with someone who is not seriously working at recovery. In the past all it would take would be a (usually drunken) confession from him about his recognition of his own inner hell to rekindle my hopes that he may be on the verge of committing to doing something about his issues and addictions. But no, within a few hours he invariably reverts right back to the same old same old.

You know, I "told" Brant that I wasn't his Mom (nor his Dad, when it came to our sex life) several times myself, expressed my needs, verbally asserted boundaries, etc. But my actions spoke otherwise. My actions said "no matter what I say or you do, I'll still be loving you and here for you."

Even in bed I had long ago become so fearful of triggering him in any way that I'd just always be game whenever he showed any interest, ever hopeful that it would be better "this time." I was very fearful that if I tried to get more of my own psycho-emotional/sexual needs met there it would only create greater distance between us, a greater sense of inadequacy or disinterest in him, generate conflict, or whatever--much of which I'd learned to expect through my experiences with him whenever I had tried anything in that area. Still, I was so desperately longing to "regain"/have that kind of connection with him (it had been great in the very beginning)--felt so lonely and sexually neglected/abandoned/rejected/confused/unfulfilled/you name it--and my self-esteem/self-image plummeted steadily. And yeh,when we did have sex it was generally very predictable, boring, and much of the time felt emotionally vacant before it was through. It was heartbreaking, but I didn't want to give up hope and tried to be as understanding, patient and supportive as I knew how, given his (unaddressed) years of CSA. For a while there I even tried to resign myself to the possibility that I may NEVER have anything even remotely close to the kind of sexual connection that I needed and wanted with him (face-to-face would have been a welcome start), but I "loved" him so much I even tried to convince myself that a lifetime of sexual loneliness and heartache wouldn't be so bad.

Every once in a while I'd "hit the wall" and just give up. Besides, there were so many other issues, none of which were being addressed (though he did quit using cocaine for about 16 months). Hell, I've lost count of how many times I left him and said that was "it" for me, that I was through with him. For me it was kinda like quitting smoking, I had to "quit" him many times before I finally broke free of my own addiction to him and to the dream of "what could be." I still get the odd craving for him at times, but nothing like I did before.

I'll tell you one thing, returning to this forum today (which I did after being PM'd by someone here), reading some of the posts, etc, has been so reaffirming for me. My heart goes out to you all, survivors and partners alike, and if Brant had been working on his stuff, I'd still be at his side today, impersonal/"boring" sex for the time being or no. But without a JOINT commitment to the recovery/growth process, there just wasn't anything to stick around for and I finally got that.

If anything, what still bothers me at times is my feeling that he no longer values or respects me at all--that through treating myself with such little respect during the course of our relationship (and enabling him in countless ways besides), he seems to feel no loss about us at all. Why that would still matter to me is a question worth exploring in itself, but either way, he doesn't value or respect himself, so how could he possibly truly value or appreciate someone else, other than beyond valuing them for whatever need/desire they might be able to fill *for him* in the moment?

If your husband is tangibly and actively working on things with you, great. If he shows REAL commitment to working his own recovery, to you and to your relationship, great. But either way, what I really get now is that the most appropriate relationship for me to ever work on, above all others, is the one I have with *myself.* And staying in relationships that aren't working with people who may talk about working on them, but don't actually do so in measurable, consistent, and conscientious ways is not just a drain, it's a sewer.

I can do nothing about Brant and/or his family/friends/lifestyle/self-delusions and public masks of happiness. However, I can tell you this: Working on myself and pursuing a life that works *for me* has been far more rewarding than I could possibly have imagined before. Yes, I sleep alone now (by choice), but my bed has become a restful, comfortable and welcome sanctuary for me instead of the lonely, fraught-ridden, self-annihilating place it used to be. Not only that, but there is now room in it for someone new--someone capable of real intimacy--should I meet someone I might choose to share that kind of connection with.

Ditto for my life in general. I've had more fun and positive, enriching experiences in the first few weeks of this summer already than I had in all the 4 summers that I was with Brant combined. I have peace of mind in my home, peace of mind in my relationships with the friends I see now, with my family, my neighbours and my coworkers. I still have my own weaknesses and problems to work out--and am doing so--but I don't feel so messed up anymore (in fact, I am generally feeling pretty good about where I'm at these days). No doubt this is because I'm not spending my life trying to do someone else's work for them, or to inspire them to do that for themselves, nor is my own happiness and life on hold anymore, waiting for someone else to change so that I can be happy:
I mean, how insane is that?

Native, I don't know your story and I'm not advocating that you leave your husband. I'm only sharing where I'm at now and encouraging you, with or without him, to love yourself *first.* My life matters, my needs (sexual and otherwise)matter, my feelings and sense of self matter, and today I treat my life as if it matters RIGHT NOW.

Perhaps that's the biggest change for me thus far, since before I was effectively putting my own needs and happiness on indefinite hold, making such things dependent upon what someone else was or wasn't doing, and hoping that "some day" they'd "get it" and I'd/we'd be happy at last. In my case, it was as much me that needed to "get it" as it was him. I just didn't want to face what I knew inside all along. It was painful--still can be at times--and it has taken a tremendous about of determination and work just to get to where I am right now, but it's certainly been well worth it.

You know, I ran into Brant and a friend of his on the ferry a couple of weeks ago. It was quite an interesting--and affirming--experience for me. We had a polite, friendly, casual chat, but for once I was able to be both engaged in the interaction and at the same time observe it all as if from a "fly on the wall" viewpoint. I realized that he is still the best looking man I know in my eyes, and I was aware of what I'm sure was a mutually felt chemistry/attraction, yet that didn't throw me off balance or leave me feeling any desire to try to rekindle some kind of connection with him. 4 1/2 years of heartache, insanity, loneliness, chaos and painful reality checks have finally out-muscled any romantic fantasies/impulses I may still have about him. "Been there, done that." Life's too short.

Anyway, that's where I'm at now. Hopefully the relationship I had with Brant was very different (overall) from the one you have with your husband. Perhaps if Brant was not also active in his coke and alcohol addictions things would have turned out differently with us, I don't know. It still would have required that we both were actively committed to addressing our respective issues and personal growth, as well as *JOINTLY* committed to making our relationship (including our sex life) work and work FOR BOTH OF US. However, he is where he is. He does what he does. And I have chosen to take a different path.

Hopeful thoughts for your happiness and all the best to you,

Stride
 
Hi guys

I've not been around for a while and lo and behold a gem of a thread.

Whilst my partner and I have made huge strides in healing and the dynamics of our lives together, our lovelife is almost laughably dificult. For the period of time that wraps around our lovemamkng theres a huge degree of fragility surrounding feelings of safety, desire etc etc..

Its good to hear that others are exersing such a degree of patience and tolerance with this. Thanks for your openness with this topic people.

I shuffle between moments of insecurity when I doubt the strength of our relationship because we don't have a decent sex life and then persuading myself that because we are so OK with the cuddles, hand holding and general physical closeness that the actual sex doesn't matter!!

It is certaintly a hard one and we go through periods of trying very hard to improve it and then we remember its meant to be fun!!

Once or twice we've talked and talked and been really close and then felt turned on. It was a gorgeous glimpse into what real lovemaking could be like.

A pyscosexual T has been a little but not much help.
As my partner says, the wiring is all wrong, sex fear and shame... bound together very tightly and a bugger to undo.

T
 
My husband acts fine on the surface. 99% of the time he has no outward signs of being sexually abused. We have a great relationship......except sex. He wishes that I would chose to ignore the whole issue of him being sexually abused. If I bring up the issue he becomes sad and distant. He won't talk and won't go to therapy. I'm torn. I want things to get better and I don't want to ignore the problem....yet anytime I bring up kissing, holding hands, and god forbid...sex....he "clams" up. I don't know what to do. If I leave him alone he is generally happy and fun (at least on the outside) Do I keep bringing this issue up? Every time I bring it up I know he feels like he isn't good enough for me. If I tell him that I am not satisfied he feels guilty and thinks I would be better off with out him. Does anyone have any suggestions? Should I leave him be and naver get any intimacy? Should I keep pushing and make him feel sad? Any help would be appreciated.
 
Stride

I hope you keep coming around here when you feel okay with it and contributing to the conversations. You have a lot of wisdom and compassion to bring with you.

Even if your ex wants to deny that there was any value in the time/relationship that you shared, it's clear to me that you've taken away some very valuable gifts to yourself.

SAR
 
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