Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**

Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
SAR,

As a result of much musing over this thread about "control/power" (and your posts in particular), I broached the subject with my guy last Friday...particularly WRT our current financial arrangement. Not surprisingly, he grew very irritated with me (said I read too many books) and insisted that there was nothing wrong with my continuing to manage all the money. I tried to explain how I see this as diminishing/undermining him (and me), as well as making the (your) very astute point about this being one way in which I've been choosing control over trust. He wasn't buying it.

My boyfriend very much resented--even fought-- some of the responsibility I let go. Any expenses or problems that I could give to him without hurting myself or our kids, I did-- that meant he was on his own paying for his loans/personal stuff, getting back his license, etc. I bit my tongue-- hard-- about his bad eating/sleeping/personal habits. In fact I looked the other way so hard in this area, that when he started making these changes I was slow to notice.
Click to expand...
For the moment, I am still tending to our general bills, etc, but have been giving responsibility back to him for related, smaller concerns. My tongue's already bleeding, but I know this is the right path. Some things are much more difficult to get clear on, but I'm working on sorting those out for myself, if not for him.

It is also true that over the past several months he has made a number of positive changes in most areas--including sex--and of his own initiative. These changes are often very subtle, but they're there and I'm aware of them. Still, after 3+ years, I seem to have become hypervigilant (fearful) about any little thing in those areas that might suggest he's slipping back into old patterns of behaviour and/or the things that it seems will never improve. I am quick to notice what hasn't changed, which sometimes makes it hard for me to keep the faith. It is also no doubt discouraging/frustrating for him to realize that despite the changes he has made/is making, I'm still distrustful of the overall picture. And yeh, when the old stuff comes up, it can be hard for me keep the whole process/big picture in perspective. When the old stuff comes up, what changes he has made can feel pretty insignificant to me.

But those changes are not. In fact, they're huge. I know that. And the growth, etc, between us is certainly not an overnight thing, much as I might wish it were.

Thank you for reinforcing things for me, SAR et al. Thank you for strengthening my faith and hope, as well as for helping me to learn how to love him in a more respectful, appreciative and affirming way.

Stride
 
I am pretty sure that I have the Madonna/Whore Complex and am seeking professional help to try and get through it(starting tomorrow actually)... Not only do I wish to have a sucessful "long term" relationship or marriage with a woman, but I really dig this girl (who I belive would be a good partner). I do NOT want to put her through what I have other girlfriends with reagrds to my eventual lack of interest in sex with them, etc... I want to know if anyone out there has been able to work through this... If yes, please post with your experiences and what worked for you. Thanks.
 
Hi sabbfann,

Welcome to MS. Hope your therapy today was okay for you.

You sound like a caring person, to want to get a handle on your problems before getting involved with someone.

My boyfriend and I have been together for 8 years, and he only disclosed his SA to me about 18 months ago. Our relationship has improved in several ways but sex has certainly been the most complicated area of improvement. Some other changes had to happen before we could really work on this... and don't get me wrong, we are still working on it.

The power/inequality stuff that a few of the posters in this thread have been discussing was a big part of what had to change. The guilt and self-esteem stuff is a big part of what we're still working on.

Recently my boyfriend and I have been able to talk a bit about what sex "means" to us in the context of our relationship, and how it's meant other things in the past. These were hard, emotionally draining conversations-- partly because we have some unhappy history together as a couple, partly because of the sexual abuse, partly because it requires a sort of honesty and compassion that people don't always bring to their conversations. This has been helpful to us, but again not something either of us could have handled before.

I'd suggest that you start discussing this stuff with your partner while you're talking about long-term committment, instead of years later when it becomes a problem. Since you're working on these issues now, you'll probably be in a better position to do that than most of us on this forum were.

Good luck,
SAR
 
Thank SAR for your response. The therapy session went great today and it seems as if we will work well together. Yes, I am trying to be a little more pro-active on breaking this cycle before I enter into another relationship exclusively. I cannot imagine putting someone through this again... And I really appreciate how honest you and your partner have been with one another with regards to sex and SA, etc. - I will take this advice into my partnerships. I wish you all the best in your relationship and if you have anymore insights into the M/W complex and how to break this pattern, I will be most grateful!

Peace.
 
Does anyone know of any specific books written on the subject of the Madonna-Whore Complex?!?
 
Hi sabbfann,

I don't know of any books dedicated solely to the topic. I've only seen this syndrome referred to (and just in brief--basically just a description of the characteristics of the syndrome itself)in a couple of books, both dedicated to the topic of male sexuality in general. If you do find any though, please let me/us know?

All the best in your journey through this stuff in your personal life. I fully respect, admire, and appreciate your willingness/efforts/reasons for undertaking this quest with a T. Glad to hear that your new T sounds like a good match for you and that your first appointment left you feeling positive.

Peace,

Stride
 
Hi-I am new here. I actually found this forum by accident while doing a web search on the madonna/whore complex. I became so enthralled by the thread that I ended up reading all the posts and had to register so I could join in. This is one of the most enlightening and intelligent forums I have ever been exposed to (and I have read and participated in many). Most everything I have read, has been very valuable and much of it has opened my eyes to things that I otherwise would not have recognized. I am very impressed and encouraged.
As for me, I am a survivor myself, and have had expereince in relationships with male survivors. I am recovering from one such relationship in which the man had such an inflamed madonna/whore complex that it became nearly psychopathic. Toward the end of our relationship, I found the courage to complain about the lack of affection/respect in our relationship and he replied, "I just cant see being all lovey dovey with you. All I want to do is abuse you and treat you like a slut." Although this man and I were together off and on for almost 2 years, I can count on one hand the times he kissed me, held me or said anything to me in an affectionate or supportive manner. It became more and more abusive and degrading as time wore on and yet I stayed. What on earth did this say about me? It said simply, that I hadn't dealt deeply enough with my childhood sexual abuse issues. (VERY simply-haha)--Although this breakup occurred over 2 years ago, I am still recovering from it and its effect on my self esteem and psyche. Thankfully, it served as a huge wake-up call for me and I am now approaching dating, sex and relationships within an entirely different frame of mind. However, it is a constant struggle not to fall into old patterns or to even be aware when they crop up-as I'm sure you all know. It is an ongoing, more than likely life-long process of self discovery and self awareness. However, I am finally learning how to reclaim my personal power and take more control over my destiny and relationships. I have found that taking responsibilty for everything that happens in my adulthood, has been the first step in that process. Responsibilty=power. I used to beleive I was too helpless to control my life, so I never took responsibilty for much that occured in it. It felt like life just "happened" to me, and I was not even a real participant. Just kinda along for the ride, one might say. I am aware now that this probably stems from my lack of power over controlling my abuse as a child.

Anyway, I wanted to express my appreciation to you all for inspiring me to open up on this forum and express myself. It is a most wonderful site and I thank you.

Im sorry but Im not certain if anything I have said here may be triggering so I put the icon on there, just in case. I have difficulty recognizing that sometimes...
 
Ex-insider

I am recovering from one such relationship in which the man had such an inflamed madonna/whore complex that it became nearly psychopathic. Toward the end of our relationship, I found the courage to complain about the lack of affection/respect in our relationship and he replied, "I just cant see being all lovey dovey with you. All I want to do is abuse you and treat you like a slut."
Click to expand...
In the first of my many replies on this topic I mentioned the cleaner at work who for a while was after my body, and as I said she's basically a tart. I know other guys she's had affairs with although she's been married for about 25 years.
For her there's no question of wanting to leave her husband, it's sex.
Now I do admit to a bit of flirting with her, but not in any way that would lead to me having sex with her. I know that I could if I so desired, but that's not on my plan at all. ( and that's not bragging, she has actually offered me sex without any strings attached )
So I tease her about the roots showing through the dye job, the bright red lip gloss, and all the other attributes that she has that mark her out. ( This is very sexist and judgemental I know, but she does typecast herself in this stereotypical way )
My 'flirting' isn't even that sexual, I just lead her on and wind her up a bit - because "I can"

Why would I do this when it's basically cruel and not in my interests at all?
Because I see her as the 'whore or slut', and therein lies a basic interest, or intrigue. The thought of sex on offer with no emotional involvement does have attractions to me because I can't manage sex with emotion at this time.

Perhaps the way we behave towards each other fulfills a role for each of us? I think it possibly might because she seems to respond in the way I expect. Or perhaps I've constructed my 'whore' image around her and the way she already behaves?

Whatever it is, she's got no chance!
Dave
 
Perhaps the way we behave towards each other fulfills a role for each of us? I think it possibly might because she seems to respond in the way I expect. Or perhaps I've constructed my 'whore' image around her and the way she already behaves?
--------------------------------------------------
Dave, thanks for your comments. You are expereincing an interesting situation, if you don't mind my saying.
After my expereinces I perceive anyone and everyone who acts out sexually, as a potential and probable survivor of abuse. Now Im not saying this is always true, but in many cases I'm afraid it is--espechially when your dealing with women. What are the stats--one in four? (but thats the US, and I dont know about world stats but I'm sure they are just as shocking) Even one rape or episode of abuse, early on in a persons life can screw up thier sexual health for life, espechially if it's not dealt with. Maybe shifting your perception of her in this way, might help you to find more empathy for her and her obvious inability to "keep sex in it's place". I know from personal expereince as the "whore", that when I was seeking oversexualized relationships, it most definilty stemmed from my abuse issues. (I basically accepted ANY kind of attention be it sexual or otherwise because I felt unworthy and undeserving for my emotional needs to be met). Possibly the same thing is happening to her but shes not aware or able to confront it? Maybe her marriage is abusive and or unfullfilling? Possibly she isnt getting her needs met there, either? We hide so many things from eachother and ourselves, What is on the surface is never the whole story. She may put on a really great act, but deep inside she is suffering, you can count on that. I dont know anybody who use thier body's (or allow others to use them) indiscriminately, that don't have serious issues with self-esteem, self-worth etc.

I'm impressed by your willingness and ability to see that you are unable to have sex with emotion. Acceptance is the first step in recovery and I take my hat off to you and everyone here for being honest, despite the "risks". Just my thoughts....
 
I would also suspect that her childhood was somewhat 'questionable' knowing some of her family. And her husband is .....well he's hard to describe, but 'dumb' would be a good start. And I've known him for nearly 35 years so I'm not being cruel.
So I would agree that her sexual behaviour is acting out as well, as is the way she dresses etc. I know that when she was a teenager she was a stunner, but now she does the whole slapper thing, and she actually doesn't need to.
It's the old self-esteem thing again.

Dave
 
Hi all,
My computer blew up and we had to purchase and install a new one. It has been awhile since I have been on and see that this thread has grown quite a bit since.
I see it has gone off in a few different directions....but I do have one question for the survivors in regards to their wives/special other.
My dilemma is being the Madonna side. So, out of frustration and hope and everything that I have ever tried....and believe me in almost 3 years I have tried every angle I can think of....what do you conceive has been the most beneficial position for a partner to be in.
I find if I dont say anything and live as we are then we basically live a very platonic life. If I push the issue I may get short term satisfaction, or we might end up in a fight.
I am to the point I feel like a foreigner in my own relationship....which at one time was very satisfying.
I am so confused I feel I am living in an emotional mine (mind) field.

*side note, he has finally agreed that seeing a therapist may be a good idea ...I just pray I have the strength.
 
I have come to realize that the madonna-whore syndrome can be view as a whole cycle giving it enough time.
One of my friends (in her 50's) has uncovered a history of incest in her husband's family. She even suspects he was abused by his mother at a very young age. After nearly 30 years of mariage, where apparently she was a "saint", helping him in his work, supporting him...he suddenly started to treat her like shit, even calling her a bitch. She is only conscious now that being considered a saint is as dysfunctional as being considered a whore. Obviously the fact that the relationship changed (because the partner is making the changes) can trigger that syndrome to become more obvious.
The syndrome seems to be a normal phase (around 16-20 in male adolescent psychosexual development in order to make the break from "mommy" (from my reading "Sexoanalysis" by Claude Crpeault) but I guess I am wondering about what's the crucial element that make guys leap from that kind of easy sex relationship to a more mature one based on feelings and trust.
And please don't tell me the answer is love !
As for the statistics on female sexual abuse it is actually 1/3 before the age of 18 (same numbers in England, Ireland, Canada, US). The number goes up to a frightening 80% in Indian reserves Canada.
 
Wow, a cycle. I dont want to be on either side....just a happy medium would be nice for a change.
I wonder if there are statistics involving therapy on this particular "syndrome".
It seems to hold such STRONG ideas within itself...I just wonder the outcome that generally comes with therapy.

*sigh
 
I am wondering about what's the crucial element that make guys leap from that kind of easy sex relationship to a more mature one based on feelings and trust.
And please don't tell me the answer is love !
Click to expand...
I think it's exposure to, and practice with, feelings and trust.
You can't build a relationship on something you can't access.

Also I don't think I ever realized how big the gap was between sex and emotion for my boyfriend until he got in touch with his emotions a bit. HE didn't realize that I was connecting sex and emotion-- or that our sex life had an emotional impact on me-- because it didn't even occur to him that those things COULD be connected. I guess he thought all of my impatience and hurt over the "platonic life" had to do with lack of sex... when what I was feeling was lack of love... I told him over and over but until he really became comfortable with himself emotionally, it didn't register. In that context I can understand why he would become so upset at my impatience and hurt. What a terrible cycle. :(
 
The other night, I was trying so hard to feel "connected" to my husband. It seemed every slight advancement was met with a wall. I finally explained to him that I was just trying to "connect" to him. He asked me so seriously "what do you mean by connect to me?".
I have worked so hard trying to live as an example. Be emotionally available to him. Taking the lead to show him. Honestly we are at a make or break point right now. My frustration along with his frustration are not making life good right now.
I pray to God that therapy is the answer. It is heartbreaking to experience.
 
"Heartbreaking" is the right word for living with a sexless relationship when both people love each other.

Obviously the fact that the relationship changed (because the partner is making the changes) can trigger that syndrome to become more obvious.
Click to expand...
Since I disclosed and started healing I have changed a gret deal, and my wife has also changed, maybe not as much.
Effectively we are different people than we were 6 or 7 years ago.
In many ways we are closer, we trust each other, we share our thoughts and feelings, in a way we never did throughout our long marriage.
Surely that must make for a better basis of our sexual relationship? In theory I suppose it must, but in reality it doesn't seem to have worked that way.

I think that for the first 25 years or so I treated sex as barely more than a physical thing. I enjoyed it so I did it.
Now there's an added dimension, and it's one so removed from all my sexual experiences from 11 to 46 years old that I barely understand it.

It's stupid in a way, because I have acknowledged my emotions, I have exchanged so many levels of emotion with my wife, but this sexual emotion is somehow different, and I can't grasp it.

HE didn't realize that I was connecting sex and emotion-- or that our sex life had an emotional impact on me-- because it didn't even occur to him that those things COULD be connected.
Click to expand...
Which is EXACTLY what SAR says here.
The wrong signals associated with our first sexual behaviours meant we had no emotion, well certainly no genuinly positive emotion, attached to that sexual experience. What we lerned was little more than the pleasure of physical orgasm, and a load of guilt and shame attached to that pleasure.
Pavlov's dog's were trained in the same way.

Unless I've missed something then I know what level of pleasure can be had from most sex acts, and I also know that a significant amount of that pleasure can be had from masturbation, so what's easier?
Yes, I realise that sex between people in love can trancend physical pleasure alone, far above the do it yourself methods.
But this level needs emotional connection, exchanging pleasures with someone else is as much about giving pleasure as it is about receiving it, and we can't do that when emotionally stunted as a direct legacy of our abuse.

Connecting with other emotions is possible for me, I can hold hands, hug, and lie in bed with my wife naked. We talk about anything, including this difficult subject.
So where's the damn switch to connect the last bag of emotions to my sex drive?

Dave :(
 
Hey Dave ! Just wanted to give you a quote about your last desperate question: "the unconscious has its own agenda"
the author of this quote ?
me :D
I have learnt to accept it in my own sexual healing but it is damn slow !
oki, off to Ireland now !
:)
 
Dave,
It makes me sad for you and the others to have to desire what is suppose to be so natural.
I have learned so much from you, thank you for being so open and honest for us...especially on this thread. I think the spouses/significant others have our own pain and confusion and feel like we are doomed to never be able to connect the dots. You have helped us be able to feel a little bit of control here, and gain some understanding. We really do suffer as a result of this, but putting that on you guys makes it extremely uncomfortable. When we try to understand the one we love, it can be a very painful conversation so we either avoid it or it turns into a fight. Either way, we are being trained to learn to live with this also. I call it training because it really is so out of the ordninary when you dont understand it emotionally.
As to your comment...about the SWITCH, how do therapist/counselors work that angle? I know there are several on this board checking in and out...and I think that would be a wonderful theory/method for them to expound on. Personally when I have spoke to my husband about it- I try to get him to realize that the experience he HAD when he was a small child was not related to what adults have consentually. And that putting them into two different categories in his mind would be a start. One was an act of violence and control and the other love.
It is so frustrating, and very much a turn off to think I would trigger anything in him while making love that would remind him at all of the other situation.
My emotional mind, my sexual mind.....they have changed because of this. Things that used to be so natural and easy have suddenly become a task of great proportions.
*sigh*.....my ordinary every day mind is over whelmed.

God Bless
 
bfd, Dave, SAR and all,

I remember posting here a coupl'a years ago about my utter heartache and frustration WRT trying to get through the minefield of triggers, etc in our love life, to share an emotional connection with my guy ("Brant") in bed and generally tear down all of these damned barricades to real sexual intimacy/and that exquisite experience of REAL union. Hell, even just the experience of feeling on a relatively frequent basis that his desire is FOR ME/US, that his sexual pleasure is about ME/US, instead of just some purely physical release (especially given that sex can leave him with feelings of guilt, shame, "dirtiness" or whatever...feelings which I can't help but pick up on sometimes). Someone replied that it sounded to her as if a robust, healthy and vibrant sex life with my partner was really important to me (it is) and that, if so, I was doomed to never have that with my current partner due to his SA history.

Well, maybe she was right but I'm not much of a fatalist. (Caetel's signature [Kennedy quote] about asking "Why not? [etc]" comes to mind here.) And like Dave, Brant is often very affectionate, enjoys holding hands, cuddling, etc--it's certainly not as if there's no physical affection or emotional closeness between us. That there's a whole lot of love between us is indisputable. That's part of what keeps me hanging in there. It's also true that the sex has improved in some ways, however subtly, which also gives me hope, if no other reason than I can see he is trying to work on the intimacy stuff with me.

Even if he doesn't really understand what I'm talking about in this area--it's clearly foreign to him--and thus may not even see how there's anything more to work towards beyond trying to satisfy this mysterious upset I have about it, I can see that the effort is there. The feeling of discontent/personal discomfort remains for us both, it's generally palpable during or immediately after we have sex, but at least we can talk about it a little more now without that always having to mean big conflict. Still, it's important to note that it's taken us well over 3 years just to get this far. It's not an easy or quick process, that's for damned sure!

...about the SWITCH, how do therapist/counselors work that angle? I know there are several on this board checking in and out...and I think that would be a wonderful theory/method for them to expound on. Personally when I have spoke to my husband about it- I try to get him to realize that the experience he HAD when he was a small child was not related to what adults have consentually. And that putting them into two different categories in his mind would be a start. One was an act of violence and control and the other love.
Click to expand...
One (of many) areas that have been difficult for us sexually has been his lack of comfort/willingness to communicate with me in bed. Because his abuser was always talking/describing/verbalizing what was going on for him (his abuser) when he was abusing Brant, having either of us say anything about what we're feeling,thinking, fantasizing about, or what we'd like at the time, etc, is a HUGE trigger for him. Basically, that door is CLOSED!

This has been very frustrating for me (especially given that I can be very verbal and am quite unaccustomed to not being able to give/receive that kind of communication in bed with a lover), so I finally asked a sex therapist acquaintance of mine about it (with Brant's permission) about 3 years ago. She suggested that we try just having me, say, give him non-sexual back massages and have him work towards being able to tell me what feels good, what doesn't, what he'd like more/less of, where he'd like me to massage (upper back, lower, base of neck, whatever), whether he wants kneading, light scratching, gentle rubbing in a given area at a given time, etc. The idea was to work on communicating feelings, desires, etc (and even just becoming more aware of what was going in his body) in a non-sexual (non-threatening) realm and just start with that until he became comfortable with it.

Well, when I told Brant of her suggestion, he said "I'm not going to do that!" Besides, he said, he's not that into back massages (or so he said at the time). She also suggested the book "The New Male Sexuality" for him/us to read. I bought it, read it cover to cover many times, but he's never looked at it to my knowledge.

Still, we may get there yet. I told him about this site when I first discovered it in February of '03, and he didn't want to even *hear* about it, much less check it out. In fact, I recall him being quite upset and angry with me for looking into such things as male SA stuff at all: "Quit trying to analyse me!" he said. The way he said it, I felt like he hated me at the time. Then, out-of-the-blue 3 nights ago he suddenly asked me to show him the site and how to post here. He posted 2 things, logged off, and didn't look at it again until this morning, when he read the guys' replies to his posts. His only comment about their replies was that "everybody really seems to care," but he said this with a very grateful, clearly comforted tone. He still hasn't read anything else here, but volunteered to me today that he's going to be writing the guys again and spending more time here in the future. And I think he will. Again though, it's taken 2 years just to come this far.

My emotional mind, my sexual mind.....they have changed because of this. Things that used to be so natural and easy have suddenly become a task of great proportions.
Click to expand...
Oh yeh, Sister! I know this one! Believe me I do. The road is a long and rocky one with an unknowable conclusion, but for so long as we're on it, it's truly an incredible gift to have all of us here trying to find our way/s together.

Gotta run. Love you all. I do.

Stride
 
Quick post script...

My emotional mind, my sexual mind.....they have changed because of this. Things that used to be so natural and easy have suddenly become a task of great proportions.
Click to expand...
Just wanted to say again that I can REALLY relate to this statement. Whereas I once felt very open and comfortable with being/expressing my sexual self, and confident in my ability to excite--even thrill--satisfy and fulfill my lover, I seem to have lost this since I've been with Brant. I'm no longer as responsive either, as there is so much anxiety, "head stuff," etc, for me now, given our experiences so far. It's hard to completely relax when one is worried about not triggering the other, or that you're going to turn him off/or somehow "wreck" the moment just by expressing yourself. And it can all happen so inadvertently, so suddenly. With us, things usually start off feeling really good, but once they move from kissing it can get pretty tricky.

Lately I've found myself wondering if maybe all this stuff is triggering deeper issues for me as well. Self-doubt creeps in...an erosion of self-confidence, sexual self-esteem...over time the ability to "be present in the moment" seems to have been escaping me as well. Likely, it's more simply a result of trying to navigate things with him in this arena in a way that feels good to us both and not feeling very successful with that in the end.

But again, there have been some signs of growth and positive change here between us, and things tend to get tougher before they get easier when one is trying to make changes, no matter what kind of changes we're talking about--dietary, quitting smoking/drinking/drugs, not enabling others any more, actively working on sexual issues/challenges with one's partner. So while I now find myself feeling uncomfortable being sexual with my guy, I try to focus on the belief that it's all part of the journey we're on (willingly or not!) and, hopefully, he'll stay the course with me until we start to "get it right" together.

If it's taken us this long just to get to the door, my guess is that it'll take quite a while yet before we really step through it together, and still longer before either or both of us can *stay there* in that 'next room' for any length of time. God knows I'd love for a quick and permanent solution to our challenges, but to live in expectation/demand of that is no doubt to set us both up for chronic, perhaps insurmountable disappointment. Seems to me that "the only way out is through" and that part of the secret lays in learning to appreciate the mystery and challenge of just being on the journey itself. This may sound trite, but what are the alternatives?

Kahlil Gibran wrote something to the effect that the music of the lute is made possible only through the deep carving and hollowing out of many knives. So be it. For so long as the song/dream remains in my head, I can stay with the challenges at hand.

I don't know if Brant and I will both remain committed to this process, and I certainly can't speak for anyone else here, but as I've said so many times already, it's taken us over three years just to get to the point where I no longer feel like I'm the only one seriously willing to work on this stuff. And it's certainly not just his stuff we need to work on at this point, if it ever was.

Sorry if I've gotten off track here. Gotta get to work in a few minutes and so am feeling somewhat distracted. Just didn't want to leave the impression by my last post that he and his stuff is some kind of "project," cos' that's not it. The Course in Miracles says that "we are all students and teachers to each other." Amen.

Stride
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top