Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**

[Lloydy]

Emerald

Around him I felt one up at the beginning and one down at the end. I didn't really feel like there was a time we were equals. This was very subtle and I don't think I iniated these feelings

That's a great description of it, and it is so subtle, I would say completely hidden until we look back with that wonderful thing called hindsight.
It's also way too subtle to be initiated as well, I think.

And this reminds me of another aspect of this issue.
When I was "one down" and didn't want to be there, I would use sabotage to get "one up"
With practice I found it remarkably easy to manipulate situations so that we ended up disagreeing, or upset. But it was 'never' my fault!

SAR

I think this kind of relationship can read as "familiar" or "affirming" too-- it's vicious because caring actions get twisted by hidden meanings-- If my boyfriend says, "Will you do "X" for me," and he's silently adding, "...because I am not good at that/smart enough for that/trustworthy enough for that"-- There is no way for me to say "Yes" to the request without him also hearing "yes" to all of what he's not saying."

Once you guys have cracked our hidden code, then you should never let us get away with the crap we once did.

Gotta go, I'll come back to this.

Dave

 

[Caetel]

"And this reminds me of another aspect of this issue.
When I was "one down" and didn't want to be there, I would use sabotage to get "one up"
With practice I found it remarkably easy to manipulate situations so that we ended up disagreeing, or upset. But it was 'never' my fault!"

Thanks Dave ! This is IT and it feels good to hear this from a male survivor ! It kind of helped me to realize I was not crazy.
My love got "us" in trouble just like this. It is interesting to point that I was always the indirect victim of this behaviour until he actually accused me of inventing stuff (like his feelings for me in the first place).
The first victim of this sabotage was our relationship. I can even precise my thoughts: the real victim was the sense of trust we had managed to establish beyond all our fears (being both survivors, these fears are sometimes overwhelming and stopped us from talking to each other). Yes, the sabotage was specifically directed to our mutual trust. And, of course every time my love ended up the sabotage saying it was all my fault. If I apologized and, in a healthier way, asked him suggestions so we could try to sort out our problems the crazy cycle was up again (obviously because it triggered him and he felt even more like a failure with me).
I am stuck now in a nowhere break up land full of mines. I froze, and I am still freezing !!!
Yes it's a kind of dark humour. My only solution right now: work on MY issues and... I have taken up kundalini yoga so as to help me stop the vicious cycle, well at least on a karmic level !

 

[beautifuldisaster]

Hi all,
This thread has really been beneficial to me. Thank you all for being so open and honest. This forum is an amazing tool.
I am just wondering where or when the point comes that it is "okay" to blend sex with emotion for a survivor.

xo

 

[Lloydy]

I am just wondering where or when the point comes that it is "okay" to blend sex with emotion for a survivor.

If someone finds it, I'll sell it. We'll all be rich.

Dave

 

[dwf]

SAR wrote:

But once we see this going on, I believe we have a responsibility to ourselves and to our partners to put a stop to it.

That 'responsibility' word is not exactly the one that I am apt to choose as my first option in relationships with significant others. Who wants to be responsible? Especially if there is someone very nearby who is willing to allow us to escape lifes responsibilities?

I know today that in order to become the loving person I seek to be, I must assume what is my responsibility and also allow others the dignity to accept theirs.

Unless I am dealing with children I try very hard to NOT do for others what they can do for themselves.

I do not always succeed in this and most times trouble is the result.

It is so easy to say, "There's nothing wrong with doing nice things for the person I love.".

But in a relationship where one or more have been damaged by sexual abuse; which is really an abuse of power and trust, then yes, there IS something wrong with me doing nice things for the person I love--especially things that they can, should and will do for themselves if I would only stay out of the way.

Some of us like me get so used to having our dignity and self-respect taken from us, as it was in the sexually abusive relationship, that I went through life looking for others to rob me of those same things. It is the familiar, no matter how painful it is, it is what I knew best.

Guess what? I always found them. Some of them were very nice and kind. Some were not. But the result was the same.

Today I know that when I treat adults in my life like they were children needing me to 'fix' or 'direct' or 'control' them, what I am doing is stealing from them. Stealing their dignity to make myself feel needed and more powerful.

Someone else expressed it this way:


"For people like me the golden rule is not enough. I need the "silver rule", which is that I do not do for others what they can do for themselves."

This is really a tough one to follow through on, no matter which side of the equation I am on.

As for the question of sexual relations, it is my experience that what shows up in the bedroom is what is most prevalent in the rest of my life.

It was folly for me to imagine I could change the way I was sexually without first changing the overall pattern of how I related to people.

Doing things for others in order to get them to like me or take care of me or be responsible for me, is what the sexual abuse in my life was all about.

No wonder I continued for so many years to replicate that dynamic.

I'm not sure if I am able to express myself clearly on this subject, but I do know that I must be very careful when I find it necessary to violate my "silver rule".

Thanks all, for sharing.

Regards,

 

[beautifuldisaster]

Danny,
I do "get" what you are saying. You always have such wise things to say. I think however, the one common thread for the partners in this type of relationship is that we feel helpless to the one fact that if we do nothing except to make a clear and easy path for change/recovery in this area for our MS generally we get that same result. NOTHING. So, now we sit trying to balance the push/pull dance. When I do push, at least he understands I am hurt/frustrated. Yet, this always seems to lead to internal personal injury to both the heart and soul...who can come out feeling good after having to pose questions involving your attractiveness/desire quotient to your partner?
So, yes.....there is a line. I want more than anything to abide by the SILVER RULE. I just cant seem to find/figure out what it is! I think this is the same frustration of both the survivors AND their partners.

 

[SAR]

Danny,

I agree with you entirely.

I do think of myself as having responsibilities where others are concerned-- although perhaps the responsibility to myself and my partner would be better described as my responsibility to our relationship.

there IS something wrong with me doing nice things for the person I love--especially things that they can, should and will do for themselves if I would only stay out of the way.

This "staying out of the way" is exactly what I was saying I have a responsibility to do.

I have that responsibility because I hold myself responsible when it comes to doing something that would hurt someone I love-- as it would hurt my boyfriend to keep playing this game of submission and twisted needs and inadequacy-- or something that would diminish me-- as it would diminish me to choose control over trust.

I am the one who must draw the line, and say, no, I am not going to get you out of this-- I will love you and respect you even when I don't agree with your decisions, and I will listen and share with you, but I will not tell you what to do, I will not help you because I know that helping you is hurting you, and I will not let you hurt me. I think I am accountable for my decision to say that or not to say it, and for the consequences to my relationship and my life. That's what I mean by my responsibility.


beautifuldisaster and all,

I can only speak for myself and my boyfriend, I know it hurts to wait for change.

if we do nothing except to make a clear and easy path for change/recovery in this area for our MS generally we get that same result. NOTHING.

I did not get a result of nothing.

I vented and gritted my teeth on this forum for months about how much I wanted my boyfriend to hurry up and be better already-- which is probably a good thing because I kept it away from him. I was AFRAID it would all come to nothing--or worse.

He went into therapy almost a year after he disclosed-- and he didn't disclose until months after I found out he'd been acting out online-- and I didn't find out about that until a year or so after he realized that he needed to make some changes, and stopped doing it.

Two, maybe closer to three years, to finally seek help getting out of the mess that he'd lived in for ten times that long. Really it's not such a long time.

About two years ago we went to a show together-- and about halfway through I was startled to hear a strange man's laughter very close to me... it was my boyfriend laughing. I had been with him for almost six years and I didn't recognize the sound of him laughing.

If you'd told me that day that two years later he'd laugh all the time I don't know if I'd have believed it. I certainly wouldn't have believed that he'd be driving a clean (registered!) car, taking care of his health, enjoying his work, going to church, standing up to his parents, getting enough sleep, seeing a therapist...

If a year ago, you told me that he'd be that way in a year, I might have believed you but I would have wanted it all right away.

Good things take time to grow. Bad things take time to outgrow.

After everything that's changed, our sex life is still the most complicated, emotional thing we deal with as a couple. It is hurtful for both of us. But waiting for my boyfriend to come to healing in his own time has resulted in the best things thus far, I am willing to wait for this too.

 

[Lloydy]

I don't know who wrote this, or if I can remember it correctly-

"Don't walk in front of me, I might not follow. Don't walk behind me, I might not lead. Just walk alongside me and be my friend."

It makes a lot of sense to me, I want to be equal; not better or worse.
I've had a belly-full of worse, and I hope that I would never think of myself as 'better' than someone else. I don't like people who think they're 'better' than me either.

But this also reflects what Danny said, and I agree 100% Danny, we should actively try to avoid interfering with someone who is trying to correct some kind of emotional and cognitive problem.
Support and talk about all you want, but I think I can say in all honesty that nobody ever told me what to do, not my therapist, wife or any friends or family. I guess I was lucky.

But I also know that I would have reacted badly to someone telling me what to do. For two reasons.
Firstly I'd reacted badly to 'authority' for over 30 years, that wasn't going to go away overnight.
Secondly, I think I knew instinctively that it was 'my deal'. Again, maybe I was lucky in that the people around me didn't start offering advice and instructions, maybe I would have given in and let them do all the thinking, as again, I had done for over 30 years.

My wife usually say's something like "what can I do to help?" - "Do you want to talk?". It's always questions that allow me to decide on the level of 'help' I need at the time. I know I'm lucky there, I've seen her at work with students, most of whom come to her when somethings wrong. And she's exactly the same, her questions place the responsibility for any decisions back with them. She gives, advice, support and facts, but not instructions.

I came with my own set of instructions, they just got lost.

Dave

 

[stride]

SAR,

Your very articulate and most recent post has been very helpful in pinpointing the key points to remember here. I'd like to say that it was an encouraging post for me as well (e.g. to correct & stay the course), yet must confess to an all too pervasive sense of "my guy's not like your guy": In other words, I am terribly afraid that just 'staying out of his way'and letting him resume responsibility for things like managing his own money/bills will prove disasterous, at least for me.

What the hell does that tell me? I know that he's capable of being financially responsible for himself--there's certainly no reason why he couldn't be--but he's never demonstrated any serious commitment to that: Not for all the years before we got together; not prior to my moving out in Nov. '03; not in all the months that we lived and were apart after that (12 months living apart and a cumulative total of 7 months split up); and not since we've been living together again.

He's quite a hard worker and when there's not much/enough work in his regular occupation, he will always hustle up something else to fill in the gaps. It's how he manages (or doesn't manage) his money that creates problems.

For example, he doesn't keep an eye on his account to ensure he's left enough money in there for his automatic debit payments. He "forgets" about upcoming bills, "doesn't realize" that it's already the first of the month and the rent's due, "needs" to keep $100 to get a much-needed part for his vehicle, etc. (WRT the latter, he drives a 31 year old vehicle that is forever breaking down [or on the verge of breaking down], guzzles gas like a fiend, is entirely impractical, and parts are not only exceptionally expensive to get for it but all but impossible to find anyway--new or used--and there is no local supplier. Yet he insists on both keeping/driving it, insisting that it is totally practical [though it only has two seats, so when his daughter's with us we don't go anywhere as a threesome] and just as reliable as any other vehicle, and argues that it's worth far more than it, in actuality, is. DENIAL.)

And when he runs into a financial crisis (which he does as a matter of routine, it seems)? He takes out loans from private lenders at exorbitant rates (i.e. 32.99%), borrows money from his mom, etc. When I found out he was both dealing coke and still using, his argument was that he needed the extra income to help pay his living expenses. All it was really doing was helping him support his own habit, but you couldn't tell him that, and he seemed genuinely surprised after he quit that he owed his connection a substantial amount of money.

His financial troubles became so utterly (And chronically) unmanageable that he recently (after much argument from me) filed bankruptcy. He seems to feel good about that decision, but I've already agreed to keep track of his receipts and fill out the expense forms for his trustee each month. All he had to do was just make the decision, sign the papers, and voila! most of his debts are gone and I'm doing the on-going paperwork for him.

Anyway, I make enough to pay all of the rent and utility bills if need be, but neither of us want that for so long as he's living here. Yet history has shown over and over again that if I entrust him to have his share of things ready as they become due, he won't have it. ("Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me"?) Either that or he'll give me the money for such things, then be borrowing money from me for things like groceries and gas to get him through to his next payday. In effect, still not being responsible for managing his own money.

So, yes, I "enable" him in these ways. And yes, I understand how this actually undermines and impedes his ability to be more responsible for these things himself. Which is not what I want for either of us at all. Truthfully, I have become aware of a growing regret on my part for letting him move in with me again so fast, but here we are.

So this is MY work and MY responsibility to address: I am painfully aware of a distinct lack of faith in him...something which helps him not at all and is, I suppose, offensive to us both. Certainly offensive towards him. My lack of trust that if I give his financial "stuff" back to him to manage, things will fall apart just the same as they always have. My HUGE fear that if I ask him to move out, I will worry about what he's up to when I'm not around (porn, the possibility of other women, etc). My awareness that if I asked him to move out, he'd probably go stay at his mom's, at least for a few months, who will let him live there for free. And the most likely candidates for him to choose as roommates? His youngest brother (who is just as much a financial disaster as he is, a pothead and a partier), or his single musician friends who for the most part are still living the "sex, drugs n' rock & roll" lifestyle.

Oh man, this is so SCARY! Do I have such a low opinion of the man I say I love so much? Of a man I want to show respect for? Am I that much of a control freak, trying to disguise myself as a loving, supportive partner? Nevermind him, my own abandonment and related issues are heckling me from all sides when I look at this closely.

And the financial end of things is only one aspect of this. SAR, did you ever see these things in yourself during your current relationship?

I believe that love is a choice. Perhaps my greatest fear is that my choice to love him in a more healthy and respectful way (i.e. getting out of his way and allowing him to assume full responsibility for himself) will result in the demise of our relationship for good. The question that arises here for myself, and perhaps other partners as well is: Whose interests am I/we really serving here? Whose deep-seated fears are just as much a concern and contributor to the relationship's problems as the survivors? Is there any hope for such unions?

Oh Gawd. I've been aware of these dynamics at varying levels all along, but this may be the first time I've ever really owned MY end of responsibility for our troubles.

Oh Gawd.

Stride

 

[SAR]

Whose interests am I/we really serving here? Whose deep-seated fears are just as much a concern and contributor to the relationship's problems as the survivors? Is there any hope for such unions?

I must have seen some of what you describe in myself, stride, because those are the same questions I found myself asking.

I'll have to get back to this later.

 

[dwf]

After posting in response to SARs mention of 'responsibility', it hit me that being responsibe for others is what 'mothers' do for their children (fathers, too).

So that really takes it back to the initial topic of the thread 'Mother/Whore Syndrome'.

The idea of having sex with one's mother or father is so disturbing to society that it remains one of the last great taboos--incest.

Even with that remaining social charge, there are still hundreds of web sites featuring incest as their theme; chatroooms; magazines, private clubs etc.

So when I want to act like a mother or father to the person I want to have sex with, that's something that disturbs me...eventually. At first, it seems like a good idea. Take care of them and hey, they'll take care of me, wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

For me, I do not see any escape clause in the general rule that I must treat the adults in my life as adults. Not as children, because treating them as my children and then expecting them to have sex with me is a really powerful trigger for the entire population of the world.

The man who sexually abused me took me in, gave me shelter, food and emotional support; much like a parent. He also had sex with me. He was 55 when it started and I was 15.

The knowledge of the inverse relationship existent between love and power is one that is well known. I used to have the quote from Jung at the end of my signature.

In mother/child relationships the dialectic of power is natural and good, assuming that the parent is 'normal'.

But in adult sexual relationships that mother/child dynamic is just really sick. I know. I have lived with it for a long time. As I have said, I once was a victim. Then I became a volunteer.

I no longer wish to volunteer.

I remember how powerful the adult feelings were that I had to try to carry as a young adolescent.

Feeling sexual jealousy at the age of 15 because the man who was acting as my parent was out screwing some other young guy. Or so I suspected.

No wonder I kept having those 'nervous breakdowns'. Those emotions were not appropriate for a sexually immature young man to have.

In a parallel way, the caretaking and responsibility assuming of an adult sexual partner is very inappropriate, even though many adults may welcome such attention, and seem incapable of surviving without it.

I cannot speak for others. Perhaps they are stronger or more resourceful than me. But for me that type of relationship has been toxic. It killed me inside. Stunted my emotional and spiritual growth and has made it so that I must at the age of 50 learn all that stuff that I might have learned as a teenager had I not been sexually exploited.

In a way what happened to me was like incest. I had no father. My mother was killed the year after the molestation began. I had gone home to see her and brought the papers necessary for me to enroll at a junior college.

My mom was killed while I was there visiting. I had been having thoughts of returning to her home. I had been having second thoughts about life with my sexual partner of 56 (I had turned 16).

When we looked in my mom's purse after the car accident that killed her, the papers for me to go to junior college were in there. They had a small amount of her blood on them.

I took those papers back to Chicago with me. The man, Sam Jackson, who was sexually abusing me signed those papers.

Under his signature he wrote the latin phrase,

"In loco parentis". Translated, "In place of parents".

The day I got back to him after my mom's death, he comforted me, by having sex with me.

I say all of this for my sake. So that I will remember how it happened and how it felt. I lived alone with all of this for so many years. Only in my 40s was I able to speak the truth about it all.

So I am not one to set a timetable or deadline for anyone to begin or continue their recovery.
It took me as long as it took....not one moment sooner or later would I have been ready.

While I cannot be responsible for another's recovery, I can be responsible for staying out of the way. Acting as a mother or father while in a sexual relationship with a survivor of incest is a perfect recipe for a disastrous relationship.

I know, because I have been in so many of them.

I hope you will know that I am not sharing this to be mean or discouraging. This is just my experience.

I try to focus on the things I can change, i.e. myself. And leave the things I cannot change or control, i.e. other people, especially those I love, to the care of a loving power that I believe exists in this universe.

It ain't easy. If it was so goddamned easy we would have all been doing it and a long time ago.

But it is a way that I have found to live comfortably with myself. I live alone. I do not have a partner. And I believe that it is the way it is supposed to be for today.

Thanks all for reading this and allowing me this detour into my past. It helps me to refocus my attention.

I appreciate you all for your candor, honesty, patience and tolerance.

Regards,

 

[dwf]

Before the Carpenters, there was Jung. Carl Jung.

Where loves rules, there is no will to power; and where power predominates, there love is lacking. One is the shadow of the other. Carl Jung

 

[Caetel]

Just stopping to say I am in awe of this wonderful thread ! I have been away due to the cleansing effect of my first kundalini yoga session . Got overwhelmed by a tsunami of body memory. Horrible ! I am feeling better today. I have been away skiing this week end in the Alps , I look great but could not walk much today !
Love and hugs to all

 

[dwf]

I was talking this morning with my therapist about the 'parental' element that has always entered into/been present in my sexual relationships.

How I had been on both sides of the equation; seeking to take care of others so that they would do as I wanted (ie support me, keep me around, pay my rent etc) or trying to get others to take care of me (playing the incompetent child figure, the hurt, injured man needing support of all sorts and willing to have sex with you to get it).

These are just the barest sketches of what I do in relationships with adults in my life. Sex with other men is always the first thing I consider--how it will serve me and how I must serve them in order to get what I need.

Being aware of this type of dynamic is only a start for me. I have found that my awareness is not enough to prevent me from lapsing back into the 'I'll screw you if you'll pay my rent' syndrome.

I observed to R., my T, that it seemed that this type of relationship was widespread. That it seemed to work at some level for lots of people, but that for me, as a survivor of sexual abuse, it was not helpful and often destructive.

I went on to observe the incestuous overtones in the sexual abuse that happened to me at the hands of my older, male provider/authority figure. And how I tend to replicate that dynamic in my adult life.

I wanted to be reassure myself, I suppose, and others, that I did not consider this type of thing a 'moral failure' or some big lapse of humanity like a sin or other transgression.

But that for me and people like me, it simply did not work. The quid pro quo manner of conducting adult relations, particularly those of an intimate or sexual nature, just really messed me up.

In trying to NOT do the same thing over and over again, I find myself alone again and again. Evidently it is very hard for me to imagine doing things any differently than what I have learned and practiced over the years.

It seems easier to me to have quick anonymous sex that to develop an in depth friendship leading to intimacy.

I simply do not know what that type of adult relationship based on mutuality looks like.

He concurred that it did not work for me to be in those 'mother/whore' type of arrangements.

He went on to say something that I have retained, considered and wished to share in the context of this thread.

He said that acting in the unequal, parental/child, demi-incestuous, quid pro quo style of relational behavior did not work because it prevented me from fulfilling my needs at a deeper level.

Being prevented from fulfilling my needs at a deeper level, sounds to me like what I have often thought, that being sexually abused as I was, left me stuck in some more primitive stage of development. Like a child relating to a parent, but in a sexual way.

Sometimes the roles are reversed and I seek the other side of the coin, providing for and doing for other adults as a way of relating sexually.

And I and often the other have been unsatisfied and discontent in these relations, even though in the beginning they have seemed like just what I wanted.

They seem to soothe some superficial longing that I carry with me as a scar or patterning from my youth, but lack the depth and maturity to satisfy at a deeper level the adult, grown up needs and desires that I feel inside me.

Somehow I thought it was important enough for me to come here and write about.

It's not about being bad, or being sinful, or incompetent, or any of that stuff. For me the type of relating I learned in the abusive situation is what prevents me from finding the fulfilment I yearn for as an adult.

It is really hard to not do what I have always done. The alternative looks like a big unknown and that makes me very uneasy. Easier to go back to old habits, that, while disappointing, have the advantage of being known.

Guess that's why I come here and do the other work I do. In the hope of finding the courage and the strength to do differently and to be different.

Hope this makes some sense, it's all just come out in a rush.

Thanks,

 

[Lloydy]

Danny

It seems easier to me to have quick anonymous sex that to develop an in depth friendship leading to intimacy.

I simply do not know what that type of adult relationship based on mutuality looks like.

I can see how this affects survivors and their partners, the sex we learned - our 'sex ed'- was all wrong, it was the "quick anonymous sex" that you speak of; even if it carried on for a long period with a constant 'partner' ( abuser ) Much like mine did at school.

There are to the untrained eye elements of 'relationships', but I certainly discovered through some deep self searching in therapy that it was nothing like a 'relationship'
The truth was it was nothing more than basic lust on their part, it was just dressed up to appear like "true friendship"
The day my abusers left the school was the end of both the abuse, and my ill perceived friendship / relationship. I was cast aside with no further thought.

Everything I ever learned about sex I learned from my abusers, which when the truth dawned on me ( subconciously maybe, many years ago ? )was that "I was only good for "quick anonymous sex"
Which is why I can't relate sex to love and intimacy with a loving partner. I still see sex as an act all on it's own and totaly remote from my marriage. Perhaps I still see sex as something dirty and disgusting as well? Something for me and my therapist to discuss I think.

On a slightly broader note, I also think that the way people rush into sex, and seem to expect sex within a very few dates with a new partner, is not that far removed from our experience.
Again it instills the notion that sex isn't a part of the complete, loving, relationship.

For those of us that were teenagers at the end of the 60's and still young and single in the 70's sex was just about compulsory, relationships were secondary. Remember, at that time AIDS hadn't started, and we all believed that all STD's could be cured with a dose of antibiotics!

So not only did our abuse seperate us from the best reasons to have a sexual relationship, so did the climate we lived in.

Dave

 

[beautifuldisaster]

Hello Lloyd ....am I picking up that you basically look to your partner as the "security blanket" away from what is hurtful and dirty "sex", even though you may have never realized you were doing that. Yet, somehow in a vary strong manner trying to keep them as separate as possible?
You associate sex with someone who doesnt deserve your admiration and love....which is exactally what you want to give your wife.
This may sound silly....but do you indeed enjoy sex, or do you see it more as a release of some sort?

Thanks for being so open guys!

 

[SAR]

This is great stuff Danny, and I believe it.

acting in the unequal, parental/child, demi-incestuous, quid pro quo style of relational behavior did not work because it prevented me from fulfilling my needs at a deeper level.

Being prevented from fulfilling my needs at a deeper level, sounds to me like what I have often thought, that being sexually abused as I was, left me stuck in some more primitive stage of development. Like a child relating to a parent, but in a sexual way.

*snip*

And I and often the other have been unsatisfied and discontent in these relations, even though in the beginning they have seemed like just what I wanted.

I hope this is not too personal an observation, and maybe it is bit off-topic, but as a parent I find the descriptions of parent/child behavior increasingly upsetting and not as accurate or general a model as is suggested in the posts.

Autonomy and dignity are not reserved for adults. As parents we protect and teach, we extert control when it is nessecary for the child's safety, we hold power because the child depends on us for basic needs. But the duty to guide and discipline and the power to provide and protect should never be part of a care-taking bargain or equation-- "take care of me and I'll take care of you, take care of me and I'll do what you want"

I am not saying that anyone in this thread is taking the position that children don't have to be treated with dignity or that it is okay to use the love children need as a threatening or bargaining tool. I am just noticing how these themes are floating around the discussion of what parents do. Maybe some of the unhealthy expectations in this type of unequal adult relationship come from unhealthy ideas about parenting, as well as the transference of parent/child dynamics to adult relationships?

 

[Lloydy]

This may sound silly....but do you indeed enjoy sex, or do you see it more as a release of some sort?

Now we're getting down to the difficult questions!

Do I enjoy sex?
I have done. And here I am talking about straight sex with my wife, and some previous girlfriends although it's so long ago my memory has probably raised my status from boyfriend to superstud.
Yes, sex has been good, indeed wondeful at times. But as I grew older and the widely recognised problem of getting used to your partner crept in the enjoyment of sex diminished.

Instead of doing the right thing and spicing up our sex life mutually I used fantasy on my own.
Tat backfired, big time. My fantasy became based upon my abuse, and the need to re-create it. There are other issues surrounding our 'need' to re-create our abuse but I'll stick with this one for now.
To a certain degree the fantasy helped, but inextricably linked to fantasy is guilt and shame.
When I was using fantasy I would suddenly be overcome by the guilt and shame to the extent that I went soft and sex was over.
It was classic "Catch 22", the fantasy got me erect, the guilt and shame took it away.

More fantasy, stronger fantasy - you know what comes next....

Do I enjoy the prospect of sex?
I have the capability to wind myself up over days on end with the prospect of "the ultimate sexual experience". It's something I don't do now, but I recognise the signs so it's still there lurking.
But when I was acting out this was a huge part of my life.
The thought of this 'ultimate sex act' that I would be doing with some unknown person at some stinking toilet in a few days time ( because I knew I'd be in a certain place at that time )was huge, I was out of control on adreniline by the time I got there.
The 'best' that happened? A 2 minute, fumbled BJ, the worst, a fight with some other guy or solo masturbation. There isn't any "ultimate sexual experience" - not that we can plan anyway. Have you ever seen the movie about Annabel Chong, the woman who set a record of having sex with 251 men in 10 hours ? It's a good movie, not sexual and certainly not erotic. Just very sad.
What the whole premise of this 'Worlds gang-bang record' is based on is the same thing, the perception of this 'ultimate sex act'. The reality never matches expectations.

Also, many survivors had our expectations set when we were too young to process them correctly.
What I did when I was 11 to 15 years old was set in the world of pornographic fantasy, although I didn't know that of course.
I "enjoyed" giving BJ's to a line of older boys when I was about 12yo, I actually suggested it.
I "enjoyed" the fantasy / memory of that afternoon for over 30 years, it's going to take some shifting now.

So my world of sex is rooted in all these different influences spread over 40 years, and more actually. I generally only talk about my abuse at school, but I can remember a stranger putting my hand inside his trousers when I was about 3 or 4yo.
One of the things I've discussed at great length in therapy is the issue of sexual orientation. I can't deny that gay sex acts appeal to me, but I'm not not gay in the sense that I fancy other men, I don't. I fancy women and love one dearly. I look at the gorgeous women on the streets and feel sexual, I think about my wife in sexual ways. But contact is another thing.

Touch just reminds me of what happened as a boy, and I either process that as a fantasy, or as a flashback. The result's the same anyway.

I'm sure a lot of this is also tied into the dynamics of the relationship as well, the 'power' thing we touched on earlier.
It's an incredibly complex problem for us, and one that isn't easily fixed by just going though the motions, because not only does our body rebel, our heads do as well.

That's why, sadly, masturbation is safer.

Dave

 

[SAR]

stride

For me the questions of interest/fear came back to power.

I can give you a long list of the reasons I didn't leave when things got bad-- some of those reasons I'm proud of, some I'm not.

But the bottom line is, I would have left if I'd ever felt powerless or out of control-- I was miserable, unable to change things, unfulfilled, sure-- but I knew that as scared as I'd be to go it alone, I'd be better at it than him-- and that kept him from leaving me. I knew that I was the responsible parent (I mean actual parent to the actual kids), the responsible bill-payer, the one who got things done, the one who knew how to say things, and that for those reasons it would cost him more than he was willing to pay for him to leave me entirely. His lack of power was my safety net.

NO WONDER that was a miserable relationship! No wonder that doesn't end up being satisfying for anyone! How could I ever trust in his love when my whole understanding of the relationship was based on him being with me out of something other than love? And no wonder that my first and biggest fear after he started healing was that he would "heal past" me and move on to healthier things!

And no, I don't believe there was any hope for THAT relationship. Luckily the one we have today is very different.

With every minute that I thought about the amount of power I had in our mutual lives, the more it made me sick, honestly. I didn't want it. I wanted the day to come when he could get up and walk away without looking back, and be just fine. Not that I wanted him to leave-- but I wanted to know he was choosing to be a whole, independent person, and THEN choosing me.

Obviously that's very scary. But I was being realistic too, whether he was going to heal in three months (the way I wanted) or three decades (the way he seemed to be headed), things had started changing. And however slowly they changed, at some point he would be able to choose healthy relationships for himself and I wanted our relationship to be an option.

My boyfriend very much resented--even fought-- some of the responsibility I let go. Any expenses or problems that I could give to him without hurting myself or our kids, I did-- that meant he was on his own paying for his loans/personal stuff, getting back his license, etc. I bit my tongue-- hard-- about his bad eating/sleeping/personal habits. In fact I looked the other way so hard in this area, that when he started making these changes I was slow to notice. He was quietly resentful about my NOT pushing him into therapy, and only much later admitted both that he had wanted me to do it for him and that he was now grateful that I hadn't.

It's not about how we use or don't use the control we have-- it's just the fact of our having it. You can't hold on to the control and just decide to be more benevolent or trusting in your application of it. That's how it was for me anyway.

SAR

 

[Lloydy]

In fact I looked the other way so hard in this area, that when he started making these changes I was slow to notice. He was quietly resentful about my NOT pushing him into therapy, and only much later admitted both that he had wanted me to do it for him and that he was now grateful that I hadn't.

Oh yes, "quietly resentful" - I remember that one.
I had, how can I describe this? 'created' or should that be 'become' someone who was reliant on others, mainly my wife, but I had jobs where someone else always had the responsibility as well.
That's a very comfortable position to be in. And I now know that I exploited that persona totaly.
I didn't just exploit it, I cultivated it and revelled in it.
How hard was that to escape from? very hard. Because even when I was getting therapy and making changes to my life I was still seen by all my 'mates' as "Lloydy, so f*****g laid back he's horizontal"
People started talking about me when I cut my rock-star hair, trimmed the beard ( I looked like a ZZ Top refugee for so long ) and started to 'behave'. I drove legal cars, didn't do drugs anymore. I even went to college! My reputation was in tatters!

That's how hard it is to change, the whole range of ( probably )dysfunctional behaviours that our abuse caused are reflected in the 'personality' we have taken on. We've lived like this for many years, we know it, we trust it. We might not like it, but I bet we have convinced ourselves we do.

That's why I think so many people in relationships with a Survivor that's healing feel this way -

And no, I don't believe there was any hope for THAT relationship. Luckily the one we have today is very different.

I think many of change so much that we're different people. Certainly some people who I know well, cousins and friends who live and work away, have often commented ( usually to my wife ) that they can't believe the way I've changed, not just my appearance either.
I can recognise many changes myself, hopefully for the better. But people who last saw me in the mid 90's do notice big changes.

Luckily my wife kept pace.

Dave