Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
I remain feeling somewhat stumped with regard to the many intimacy issues that seem to afflict relationships in which one or both partners have suffered SA. It can all feel so utterly exhausting and crazy-making much of the time. In my relationship, at least, it is the number one source of conflict, heartache, resentment, distrust, and so forth these days.
For the first few months after our recent reunion it had seemed that all of the passion and at least some of sexual openness/connection had returned to our relationship at last, just like in the early days of our initial courtship, but over the past while it has largely disappeared again.
In our case, sometimes it seems to me that the main problem is really quite simple to understand/identify: Given that as a child my partner was sexually abused by his father--and for years--it's not hard to see how being sexually intimate with someone he loves, trusts, and should naturally feel safe with feels anything but "safe" or "right." I mean, the two most important people in his life when he was a boy--the ones he should have felt safest and most trusting with, most loved and protected by--proved to be anything but safe, affirming, loving and trustworthy. His father sexually abused and violated him, repeatedly, while his mother seems to have pretended not to suspect/know what was going on...and she's certainly never talked about it with him, even after all these years. Moreover, from what I gather, his was not at all a demonstrative family when it came to affection...things like hugs or even just verbal expressions of affection were not commonplace at all--certainly not from his mother, who remains (IMO) a rather critical, judgemental, and nervous/tense woman, who lives mostly as an isolate (outside of her phone calls and visits with her three sons) and with whom none of them ever discuss much of a personal nature.
Indeed, she does not know many important things about her own sons--substance abuse problems, and run-ins with the law, for example--though I've no doubt that at some level she suspects more than she lets on. In addition, her sons are adamant that she not know about such things, as they say she "couldn't handle it" (personally I don't agree at all, but it is not for me to make that call). If nothing else, it is clear that there is much about themselves and their respective lives that they do not wish her to know. Nobody really talks much with her about anything outside of politics/current affairs, their work, or maybe the tap she needs them to fix. They are very devoted to and protective of her though, especially my guy (the eldest son) and her youngest: the two with long-standing histories of alcohol & substance abuse (which has caused each of them problems with the law on more than one or two occasions and gained them both criminal records); the ones with recurrent financial crises/problems; sporadic, dysfunctional, short-lived and unstable relationships with women; the ones who have fathered children but never had custody of those children, etc. (Though both now in their 40's, neither of them has ever married, nor lived with anyone longer than a couple of years, and both have gone for periods of years w/o any steady partner at all.)
Except for my partner--and him only once or twice a year, very briefly, by phone or email--no one in the family has had any contact with their father for 10 or 20 years now. His two brothers (who suffered the same SA he did) refuse to even acknowledge the man's existence and he is never talked about.
Anyway, my guy and his youngest brother in particular seem to put their mother (who is 75) on some kind of pedestal, and live somewhat at her beck and call--ensuring that she has plenty of firewood split, stacked and ready for her fireplace, and responding to frequent calls from her to repair various things around her house, take her shopping (though she is quite capable of driving herself, has her own car, and is actually quite an independent, healthy woman), and so forth.
I used to be impressed with how devoted my guy was to his mother, with how he was so conscientious about ensuring that she had whatever she needed to live comfortably, etc. But after three+ years, I have come to see an underlying dynamic in his relationship with her that I find quite disturbing. Especially when I consider the possibility that the problems with intimacy in our relationship are eerily reminescent of what some call "The Madonna-Whore Syndrome [or Complex]."
For those not familiar with this syndrome, it refers to a complex some men seem to have about women: That women are either of the "good girl" variety (sweet, honest, dependable, respectable, marriageable), or of the "bad girl" type...sexy and exciting, perhaps even irresistably so, the kind you'd happily ball, but would never feel emotionally devoted/close to.
Men with the M-W Syndrome generally feel very emotionally connected and devoted to their significant other, but do not find her of much interest sexually; at least, not once the relationship was become a committed, emotionally close one for them. And this is something that creates much confusion, hurt, and loss of esteem for their significant other. Typically, these men habitually seek out sexual liasons with other women with whom they are not emotionally attached, usually in secret, while remaining emotionally devoted to their primary partner. Most (if not all) efforts on the part of their primary partner to rekindle sexual passion--especially if the effort is blatently sexual--are rebuked by these men at best, denigrated and judged "whorish," etc, at worst.
The theory is, at least in part, that these men have unresolved issues with their mother stemming from unmet needs for emotional intimacy from/with her during childhood. They tend to put their mother on a pedestal, just as they do their primary partner in adulthood, but this kills/precludes being able to experience or sustain any sexual passion for their partner; after all, who wants to f**k their mother?
So my question is: Does the M-W Syndrome seem to be particularly common in relationships like mine, where my man was sexually abused as a child?
I am reluctant to diagnose or label, but the shoe does seem to fit in many ways. Does any of what I've written here ring a familiar bell for partners/survivors on this site?
Stride
(edited to add trigger warning to topic)
For the first few months after our recent reunion it had seemed that all of the passion and at least some of sexual openness/connection had returned to our relationship at last, just like in the early days of our initial courtship, but over the past while it has largely disappeared again.
In our case, sometimes it seems to me that the main problem is really quite simple to understand/identify: Given that as a child my partner was sexually abused by his father--and for years--it's not hard to see how being sexually intimate with someone he loves, trusts, and should naturally feel safe with feels anything but "safe" or "right." I mean, the two most important people in his life when he was a boy--the ones he should have felt safest and most trusting with, most loved and protected by--proved to be anything but safe, affirming, loving and trustworthy. His father sexually abused and violated him, repeatedly, while his mother seems to have pretended not to suspect/know what was going on...and she's certainly never talked about it with him, even after all these years. Moreover, from what I gather, his was not at all a demonstrative family when it came to affection...things like hugs or even just verbal expressions of affection were not commonplace at all--certainly not from his mother, who remains (IMO) a rather critical, judgemental, and nervous/tense woman, who lives mostly as an isolate (outside of her phone calls and visits with her three sons) and with whom none of them ever discuss much of a personal nature.
Indeed, she does not know many important things about her own sons--substance abuse problems, and run-ins with the law, for example--though I've no doubt that at some level she suspects more than she lets on. In addition, her sons are adamant that she not know about such things, as they say she "couldn't handle it" (personally I don't agree at all, but it is not for me to make that call). If nothing else, it is clear that there is much about themselves and their respective lives that they do not wish her to know. Nobody really talks much with her about anything outside of politics/current affairs, their work, or maybe the tap she needs them to fix. They are very devoted to and protective of her though, especially my guy (the eldest son) and her youngest: the two with long-standing histories of alcohol & substance abuse (which has caused each of them problems with the law on more than one or two occasions and gained them both criminal records); the ones with recurrent financial crises/problems; sporadic, dysfunctional, short-lived and unstable relationships with women; the ones who have fathered children but never had custody of those children, etc. (Though both now in their 40's, neither of them has ever married, nor lived with anyone longer than a couple of years, and both have gone for periods of years w/o any steady partner at all.)
Except for my partner--and him only once or twice a year, very briefly, by phone or email--no one in the family has had any contact with their father for 10 or 20 years now. His two brothers (who suffered the same SA he did) refuse to even acknowledge the man's existence and he is never talked about.
Anyway, my guy and his youngest brother in particular seem to put their mother (who is 75) on some kind of pedestal, and live somewhat at her beck and call--ensuring that she has plenty of firewood split, stacked and ready for her fireplace, and responding to frequent calls from her to repair various things around her house, take her shopping (though she is quite capable of driving herself, has her own car, and is actually quite an independent, healthy woman), and so forth.
I used to be impressed with how devoted my guy was to his mother, with how he was so conscientious about ensuring that she had whatever she needed to live comfortably, etc. But after three+ years, I have come to see an underlying dynamic in his relationship with her that I find quite disturbing. Especially when I consider the possibility that the problems with intimacy in our relationship are eerily reminescent of what some call "The Madonna-Whore Syndrome [or Complex]."
For those not familiar with this syndrome, it refers to a complex some men seem to have about women: That women are either of the "good girl" variety (sweet, honest, dependable, respectable, marriageable), or of the "bad girl" type...sexy and exciting, perhaps even irresistably so, the kind you'd happily ball, but would never feel emotionally devoted/close to.
Men with the M-W Syndrome generally feel very emotionally connected and devoted to their significant other, but do not find her of much interest sexually; at least, not once the relationship was become a committed, emotionally close one for them. And this is something that creates much confusion, hurt, and loss of esteem for their significant other. Typically, these men habitually seek out sexual liasons with other women with whom they are not emotionally attached, usually in secret, while remaining emotionally devoted to their primary partner. Most (if not all) efforts on the part of their primary partner to rekindle sexual passion--especially if the effort is blatently sexual--are rebuked by these men at best, denigrated and judged "whorish," etc, at worst.
The theory is, at least in part, that these men have unresolved issues with their mother stemming from unmet needs for emotional intimacy from/with her during childhood. They tend to put their mother on a pedestal, just as they do their primary partner in adulthood, but this kills/precludes being able to experience or sustain any sexual passion for their partner; after all, who wants to f**k their mother?
So my question is: Does the M-W Syndrome seem to be particularly common in relationships like mine, where my man was sexually abused as a child?
I am reluctant to diagnose or label, but the shoe does seem to fit in many ways. Does any of what I've written here ring a familiar bell for partners/survivors on this site?
Stride
(edited to add trigger warning to topic)
But the thought of uncomplicated sex with a more than willing partner did have some appeal. I know, from the other guys experiences, that she wasn't after everlasting love, just sex.
and I know I can't change the past we've shared together.
This invaluable forum has certainly given me much to chew on over the past coupl'a years and I can only hope that perhaps someday my guy will get to where you are, with or without me.
exploding thread! 