"liking it" (BIG triggers)

"liking it" (BIG triggers)
R

roadrunner

Registrant
Brothers,

The concerns of a new member here recall to mind my own experiences of "liking" what was happening to me. I am sure deep down in the archive here there must be some thread on this, but perhaps it would be good to take it up, even if it's a repeat.

Achieving erections and experiencing orgasms with my abuser were two things that bothered me a lot as a kid. At first I was horrified that this could happen to me, but I was so confused and emotionally "paralyzed" that in order to deal with it I simply asked my perp if these things meant that what he was doing to me was all okay. His answer: Yes, of course. Well, I was frightened and 11 years old. I wanted so badly for it to be true, so I believed him.

Later, however, his lies changed. I was no longer "special" and this wasn't our secret together time; I was a dirty little boy and this was all my doing. What would my parents say if they found out? They would throw me out or put me in an orphanage. As things moved in that direction I found it more difficult to deal with "liking it". The finishing touch was his line that erections and orgasms, even without ejaculation, proved how equally I shared in responsibility for what was going on. That seemed to be true, just as his other lies had seemed to be true. So many times I would easily go along with him: get in his car, wait by his front door for him, and go upstairs to his bedroom, all without the slightest threat. What could be more guilty or dirtier than that? Case closed.

In fact, it wasn't until this summer that I figured out what was really going on. His abuse, lies and shaming strategies had so totally robbed me of any self esteem or respect that I didn't think I deserved anything better. I remember thinking, so what; if it's not him it would be someone else.

I think any kid's body would respond to sexual stimulation, even in a situation where the boy is afraid and ashamed. The confusion that results from that gives the perp one of his cruelest tricks for messing us up even more.

Sorry for this one. It has been difficult to write and I know it will be difficult to read. Still, I wonder if anyone else has thoughts on this.

Larry
 
Larry sure our bodies reacted. The human species are very sexual. That is why there are so many of us. And the damned perps use it to their advantage. The prime reason is that they want us to shut up and accept responsiblity for what happened. Yeh that is a total crock. But we all got hooked by it. It was never our fault shame or guilt. But our reasoning that because it felt good sort of we must have wanted it.
 
roadrunner,
Getting an erection & feeling pleasure, is called "spinal reflex".
An example is, when u touch something hot & your hand jerks away. You didnt have to THINK about moving your hand, yet you did. Sensory input traveled up your arm to your SPINE & back to your arm muscles.
Weather your abuser knew about this or not, You certainly didn't, & in any case, he used your lack of understanding against you.
Im sure Llody or Ken can site research/studies on this.
 
roadrunner

"I think any kid's body would respond to sexual stimulation, even in a situation where the boy is afraid and ashamed. The confusion that results from that gives the perp one of his cruelest tricks for messing us up even more".

Spot on, dont I know it.

Thank heavens I found out the above early on in my recovery via Mic Hunters excellent book "Abused Boys - The Neglected Victims of Sexual Abuse.

Kirk
"Instigate change, as it appears it wont come naturally in our cause. Sometimes it needs a little forcing".
 
Larry, I experienced the same thing and it caused some ambivalence around my sexual preferences as a young adult. For perpetrators to use the excuse that 'we liked it' is a cowardly & manipulative excuse consistent with their immature and cowardly behaviours. Peace, Andrew
 
Larry, I have talked many times about this liking it thing, and I can only suppose it is the biggest deterrent to any boy reporting abuse.

I never realised the hurt that ensued mentally, but it must be pretty big, and yes, I can understand a lot of the hurt with this issue.

My abuse had nothing to do with "liking it", more to do with pain, but abuse is abuse, and "liking it" to any young guy must sure have screwed his mind!

Whether you "liked it" or not, it does not make you part of any sexual act with an adult who is only trying to stop you telling, and boy, they really have ways of doing that.

This is why it is so much more humiliating for a boy to go through, because his mind thinks he reacted favourably to what was a pure "abusive situation, and that is totally wrong, because the body reacts to stimulation, and not your mind.

It is wrong to put the two together and blame the abuse and guilt on yourself.

An abuser could never play that card in any court of law, and it is about time boys know this, but the whole thing for various reasons which are many, then the male does not report it, or under reports it, as was my case, to protect my Fathers feelings.

They really did screw us up, and the many who live in silence,

Edited to include this link,

effects of SA
ste
 
I can tell you that I am working with an abuser right now who molested more than 20 boys years ago. His desire was to bring them to orgasm, whether they were able to ejaculate or not. It gave him a sense of power.

It was a matter of power and control for him. He rationalized that he was doing it to bring pleasure to them when he was abusing. Now he realizes that he was using his knowledge and adolescent/adult experience to manipulate them and that he messed with their minds and was really for his benefit.

Point is that abusers, whether they realize it or not at the time, are using children who may feel the physical sensations as pleasurable or not, as tools to gain a sense of control and power over others. Unfortunately, as you know now, they make you pay a price for the feelings.

Too large a price.

Ken
 
Larry,

I sure do understand how you feel - I don't know if you've read my story (it's archived here - but it's not an easy read) - for over 20 years I beat myself up daily over the things that my Uncle said to shame me into silence - 98% of what he did with me was done through pure co-ersion - only a few times can I remember him forcing me to do something I did'nt want to do

Achieving erections and experiencing orgasms with my abuser were two things that bothered me a lot as a kid. At first I was horrified that this could happen to me, but I was so confused and emotionally "paralyzed" that in order to deal with it I simply asked my perp if these things meant that what he was doing to me was all okay. His answer: Yes, of course.
Click to expand...
Your abuser knew that if could shame your body for it's reactions that you would be silent about the things that he was doing to it - my Uncle used much the same tactics with me

The finishing touch was his line that erections and orgasms, even without ejaculation, proved how equally I shared in responsibility for what was going on.
Click to expand...
it's the same tactic by your abuser to shame your body for it's natural reaction - something that he knew that you had no control over - something he knew that he could use against you

So many times I would easily go along with him: get in his car, wait by his front door for him, and go upstairs to his bedroom, all without the slightest threat. What could be more guilty or dirtier than that?
Click to expand...
My Uncle never threatened me either - he knew that he did'nt have to - he knew how desperately I was looking for friendship (I was kept so totaly alone by my mothers rules while growing up - he knew that he could use this against me) - he got me to freely trade it for abuse - Guilt - something that I did'nt even consider untill I realized that what he was doing to me was wrong and I tried to stop it

Point is... - you are not dirty or guilty - neither am I - they were the ones in control - not us - they were the ones who knew better than to do the things they did and yet they did them anyways - they are the only ones who are dirty and guilty - not us!!!


His desire was to bring them to orgasm, whether they were able to ejaculate or not. It gave him a sense of power. It was a matter of power and control for him. He rationalized that he was doing it to bring pleasure to them when he was abusing.
Click to expand...
Ken - I believe that this is exactly the reason in which my Uncle continued it for so many years - he actualy rationalized it to himself that he was bringing pleasure to me (that it was something 'good' that he was doing for me - I can remember him telling me this many times) - I can so clearly remember that he would insist on not stopping on me untill I'd orgasm and when I tried to stop it for good he was so insistant that I would not have been able to orgasm unless I'd 'liked' what he was doing - heck, I'd even started to ejaculate at 9 y/o which proved to him all the more that what he was doing was good for me...

You are definately not alone Larry... - Thanks for having the guts to post about this - it's not an easy subject...

I can rationalize in my mind now why it was not my fault - I just wish that sometimes the rest of my body would agree with what my mind knows...

it is miserable that these perps used our bodies natural reasponse to stimulation against us - I can so clearly remember that the last few times when I did'nt want to be doing it that I tried so very hard to 'not' let my body react to the things that he was doing to it - but it is simply impossible - as Blacken stated it trully is an unconsious natural reaction - there was no controling it - no matter how badly we wanted to...

TJ jeff
 
Roadrunner,

The shame from the abuse is one of the areas I have to deal with. It went on so long for me from the time I was 6 - 20, that I thought I was the sick individual becasue I did nothing. Even after it stopped I still felt ashamed about it. I am still working on these feelings and emotions, so I can believe that my father who abuse was the abuser and not me. But it gets confusing because I wanted to be loved and held as well as considered special. It is terribly confusing for child and still confusing for me as an adult but I am working on this with my T.
Cuck
 
Per Larry's request, I am copying and pasting a Private Message that I sent to him regarding his post above.

********

Hello Larry:

I saw your post about "liking it" and I was very impressed. I know how hard that was for you to express that. But you did a good job. And it's something to which just about every guy here can relate. For myself, it's not something that I really think about much. But that's only because so many memories are blocked for me, at least the gory details. I have no doubt, however, that at some point, even as a toddler my body might have responded in a way that made it seem like I was somehow enjoying it. But I had no choice. It wasn't my fault. I did nothing wrong. You had no choice. You did nothing wrong!!!

This is a really big breakthrough for you. And I'm very proud of you older brother!

Love,

Jasper

********

That's what I sent him. But I just want to add the following:

I think this is a really big step for Larry (and for all survivors) when we start to acknowledge our feelings. In this case, literally how the touch may have felt, even when we didn't want it. But also, by acknowledging the "feelings," Larry is acknowledging how he felt emotionally. And getting into the emotional part of the SA is a big step. Am I right, Larry?

It's one thing to intellectualize it--but to FEEL IT? Whew! That takes guts and you've got them, Larry! Way to go!
 
Jasper,

It's one thing to intellectualize it--but to FEEL IT? Whew!
Click to expand...
That's why I thought you should post your PM. I didn't think of my post in that way, but I guess you are right. Thanks for pointing it out. I know I have a lot of feelings about my SA issues, but I also know I have trouble getting in contact with them. Why that is I still don't know.

Larry
 
Hi Larry!

Forgive me if I quote again from Mike Lew. But he says something to the effect that being able to finally put the feelings together with the memories is what it's all about. In other words, we need to give ourselves permission to feel what we were feeling back then. Including anger, in many cases.

That, I think, is what we are all striving toward. I'm not there yet. You're not there yet. But we're getting there, buddy! And you just took a giant leap forward with this thread.

Sleep well,

Jasper
 
Thanks Jasper. I need to check this up in ML's book.

Larry
 
Larry,
can I ever relate to what your saying, my uncle took a long time to groom me he was my only friend the only one that loved me & he kept me to himself and the boy next door that he was abusing also.
This went on for 4 yrs at age 7. I know no difference I thought he loved me, I know my Mom & Dad didn't they sent me away. I did what ever he wanted just so he would stay with me & love me.
In order to support his love he would take just me & the boy next door fishing, camping he had a hunting camp that we used a lot.
He took a long time very slow, the both of them and I went along willingly just so I didn't loose them.
I know the difference now but I still feel some love for him I don't understand this. I can hate the others that abused me but he is different?

Sorry I have a tendency to run on once I get started.

Craig, Have a nice day everyone.
 
Larry,

Hoo, boy, you've hit on something I still have problems dealing with.

My abuser, a guidance counselor at my middle school, knew just what buttons to press. He got me from a to be to c until HE hit Nirvana. Now, I realize that, even when I was confused about what he was doing, I loved himm. At least HE made me think I loved him.

I guess when he got "bored" with the "vanilla" aspects of his activities, he introduced more shameful and humiliating activities and, no matter how bad they got, or how violent he became, I physically responded.

MAJOR TRIGGER! MAJOR TRIGGER! MAJOR TRIGGER!


Even when he tried to murder me, TWICE!, when he was threatening me with weapons and had me helpless, unable to even ****ing SCREAM for help, I still got "aroused." This is hard to admit to, because it's colored all my perceptions of sex. It used to color my idea of "love" - for during THESE moments, as well as every ****ing OTHER moment of his abuse, he's say he "loved" me - until I realized what utter BULL**** that was!


END TRIGGERS! END TRIGGERS! END TRIGGERS!

If you read that, you can see how angry, embarassed, shamed, and sick I am about it still.

The point is that it was out of my hands. How else could I respond to it? It was physical and mental abuse. I was a kid who didn't frigging know better. What 11 year old would?

What child at ANY age would?

We respond to so many things. Physical stimulation, mental images, emotional needs. Any of those things can indicate "wanting" something to happen. But you have to ask yourself, in all honesty, how did YOU feel when the abuse happened? Were these feelings positive or negative? I believe there's a level of rationalization that happens, but the bottom line is that WE know what we want and what we DIDN'T.

You didn't want that abuse. Never. No matter what the abuser told you. The lies were not only a power he had over you, but a rationalization to them that what they were doing wasn't the wrong thing you KNOW it was.

In case no one said this to you, I believe you.

God, I wish someone gave me the chance to hear that.

Peace and love,

Scot
 
Scot,

Thanks a lot for that post. I am so sorry to hear what happened to you. It just keeps reminding me what a huge violation of trust all these SA issues involve.

I hit on something you said that really jumped up at me:

But you have to ask yourself, in all honesty, how did YOU feel when the abuse happened? Were these feelings positive or negative? I believe there's a level of rationalization that happens, but the bottom line is that WE know what we want and what we DIDN'T.
Click to expand...
I can answer this in two ways. By about a year into the abuse my perp had my sense of worth as a kid totally destroyed; even though I was from a close and loving family environment, he managed to convince me that my parents didn't love me and that I was in all ways a failure. The only thing I had, I thought, was him. I did know that what we were doing was wrong, and the fact that I enjoyed the physical part just proved how bad and dirty I was. After being raped however many times, I discovered wow I'm not bleeding anymore. I remember thinking I'm not good for anything else so at least I'm good at this.

But that was just a desperate devastated kid acting out and finding a way to justify his survival. (I had a lot of suicidal thoughts and those really frightened me.) What confirms this to me is a recurring nightmare I have been having lately. In this one I am in bed with my PJs open and someone is going down on me. I know who it is, but I am too ashamed to look. I want him to stop but I'm too frightened and confused to speak. I'm in tears and wondering why doesn't anyone help me? Then I think no, that would mean someone will find us like this or I have to tell, so I just keep my eyes closed and let it happen.

Larry
 
Ya, this is a rough thread to read, to re-live.
Maybe I should wait until I can write something.
Right now, I'm still thinking about the 8th grade teacher to whom I went for help with my school work only to end up as his sex toy. And the thing that I remember most is that I'm glad that he wasn't my classroom teacher. Knowing him, he probably would have used that leverage against me, too. He really was an evil shit.
Ya, maybe I should wait until later today to say any more.

David
 
Hello,

This is my first post. I'm thankful to have found this forum! On enjoying it.. Sometimes I feel as though I was betrayed by my body, like it's reaction may have encouraged my abusers.

I had tryed to put the topic of my abuse away but being newly married, sharing little bits with my wife, and having an instant family (step son) seem to be causing a lot of the things that I thought I had been able to put away to come to the surface.

I guess I'll never be done with this stuff.. it's a bit depressing to be honest. But I have a strong relationship with both God and my wife, and being an optimist at heart I know I'll get through it. I just don't think that I can go through it alone anymore.

That's why I'm here. I came looking for anything and anyone who could relate and maybe be of some help getting though my "Recovery".

Glad to be here.
Dan'l
 
I know this is an older thread (2005), but I really think it's worth re-reading and commenting on. There's so much in the comments that rings true for me, and I suspect many, many others....

My own experience is very much like Roadrunner's (above). Before my longest-lasting, worst perp showed up, I had a really terrible experience with a husband and wife, friends of my parents. At the ripe old age of six, I learned how filthy and disgusting I was, my body was, and sex was. I was already in the process of learning what a little freak I was (undiagnosed Asperger's and ADHD but with an IQ of 168). Further, a number of bullies, within and outside the family, killed my self-esteem as it related to self-defense.

Neither defending myself nor expressing anger were allowed in my family. Both were met with severe penalties. So in essence, I was isolated and alone, an introvert in a family of extroverts, and the easiest target on earth for anyone who came along.

So yes, my perp made me feel special. He alone, of anyone in my entire circle of friends, family and so on, even recognized me as a boy. To everyone else, I was little more than an amorphous little freak who had something wrong with him. So I think this validation, even corrupted, combined with the fact that sex feels pleasurable pretty much no matter who's performing it, made things so incredibly confusing.

Since sex, my body, and myself as a person were all filthy, disgusting things in equal measure, there was a certain logic that "validation" (normally good) would come from illicit sex (bad). And like others above, I had to hide it or face all sorts of even worse circumstances. So having coerced sex in the backyard, then coming in where my mom was and pretending everything was just peachy, demanded an acting ability worthy of Best Child Actor In A Continuing Monstrosity.

If anyone reading this thinks he's at all to blame because (a) it felt good or (b) he got any sort of validation out of it or otherwise fulfilled needs that weren't being met elsewhere, please realize you're wrong. You're not to blame. It felt good. Yes. There were comforts found there. Yes. But that makes you culpable: NO. Repeat, NO.

Bob
 
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