it's over...i think...

it's over...i think...
N

natalie_in_recovery

Registrant
warning...very long post...

on tuesday, my guy's ex-girlfriend came over to his place and accused him of breaking into her apartment to steal 2 dvds. he was very hurt by this and pretty much wrote her off. they were together for 8 months and this caps off her dumping all over him 2x since they broke up. during their relationship she hurt him deeply several times, and even shoved him once.

on wednesday, he and i made love and it was the most amazing time ever. we were so open, so intimate...it was wonderful.

friday morning he calls to tell me that he's still in love with his ex, has been in love with her during the past three months (the length of our romantic relationship), and no longer wants to be romantic with me. when i asked if he wanted to get back together with her, he said he didn't know, but that he would if she went into therapy and they went back into couples therapy. he also told me that our romantic and physical intimacy was an extension of our friendship, and that he was "much more intimate" with her than with me. he "loves" me, but is not "in love" with me. the only think i could say through my tears at the time was that i thought it was sad that his abuse would make him only be able to be in love with women who hurt him.

i was a wreck the rest of the day, crying nonstop. we spoke in the evening, and i read this to him:
Before I begin, I would like to say that I am going to try not to cry while I am talking; but please dont take this as a sign of disinterest or aloofness. I dont want to cry because crying will make it difficult for you to hear me, and I very much want to be heard and understood. If I do cry, I will stop talking until I can compose myself enough to be heard clearly.
I am hurt. I have been sobbing, screaming, and gagging for most of the day. I have never felt this hurt before.
I am so hurt and so angry, but I am not angry at you, David, the individual. I do not blame you for this. I blame and am angry at your perpetrators, the abuse they inflicted on you, and how they and their abuse are influencing you and hurting me.
Ever since we became friends I have been so scared of hurting you, of you not feeling safe around me, or of me becoming yet another woman who leaves you because you arent giving her what she wants.
As it turns out, your perpetrators and their abuse have hurt me, and it is because of their level of influence on you that continuing our friendship will be too painful and frightening for me. Painful because of how hurt I have been after opening myself up an being completely vulnerable, and frightening because I will not know when your perpetrators and their abuse will hurt me like this again.
In terms of being scared that you are going to see me as another woman who leaves you for not giving her what she wants, I think I am just going to have to let go of that fear. I know in my heart that that is not what has happened, and I think that you, deep inside, know the same. I am not doing this because I dont love you or dont want to be your friend I love you more than Ive ever loved anyone and I desperately want to remain your friend. This isnt about you not giving me something it is about me getting hurt worse than Ive ever been hurt before and trying to take care of myself in the aftermath. It is horrible that, in order to take care of myself, I have to do something that will pain us both, but I dont think Ill be able to take the hurt or the fear otherwise. I wont be able to be fully present in our friendship, nor will I feel safe being open and vulnerable with you.
It is so, so unfair that your perpetrators and their abuse are hurting us both like this. Once again, please know that I am not angry at YOU nor do I blame YOU it is them and their actions that are at fault, and they, not you, are where the majority of my anger is aimed.
There is one semantic issue that I would like to address: when we spoke earlier today, you said that you have told me before that you are still in love with Marcia. The only recollection I have of you saying anything like that was during a conversation we had in Las Vegas. During this discussion, you told me that you still felt a sense of loyalty toward your mother and Marcia, and that you still love them. To me, there is a difference between loving someone and being in love with them had you said that you were still in love with Marcia, I would have taken it completely differently and would have ended the romantic part of our friendship then and there because I would not have felt right being romantic with a man who was in love with someone else and not with me.
I truly believe that you and I are kindred spirits, and that we have and will continue to play very important parts in each others lives. Goddammit, David, I LOVE YOU, but I need to let go. You are a good person, a wonderful man, and I am going to keep loving you and being your friend in soul and spirit until the day I die and beyond. I am going to miss you so, SO much, more than Ive ever missed anyone its painful for me to even think about not talking to you everyday or seeing you frequently. This will be the hardest loss that I have ever grieved because our friendship means so much to me. You will always be my first love and my friend I will never stop loving you, praying for you, and sending you light to aid you in your recovery.
I love you, I will miss you, think of me what you will but I think you know me well enough to know that I am not like the other women in your life that have wanted something from you and hurt you. But right now I have to take care of me because the hurt, wherever its coming from, is hurting ME. I am letting go with love, its the hardest thing Ive ever done, but Im letting go with love.

he doesn't understand why i can't be friends with him right now - he doesn't get why it's "all or nothing," "romantic or nothing." i told him that if he was in love with me as much as i was in love with him that he would understand how painful it would be to see and talk to him all the time like we usually do.

my heart is broken. i've never known pain like this before. we were friends for 9 months before anything romantic happened, so i'm losing a friend as well as a lover. it hurts so fucking much. we have one 12 step meeting in common, and i don't think i'll be able to go to that for awhile (i'm certainly not going to tell him what meetings he can and cannot go to like his ex did). we also go to a step study every 2 weeks, and since i'm a co-facilitator i can't not go (plus i want to work the steps). he asked if he could say hi to me there, and i said yes, but i have a feeling it's going to be very hard for me.

right now i'm just talking with trusted friends, crying, and writing. here are some things i've written today as i've been processing the situation. i don't know if they're things i want to say to him (if i do i'll clean them up and take out any sarcasm) or not, but here they are:

(Note: any mention of him or he that is in quotation marks signifies that I am not referring to D as a person, but to his perpetrators and their abuse of him)
It hurts so much, more than anything has ever hurt before. I opened myself up more than I ever have before and I got punched in the gut and IT FUCKING HURTS. I made myself vulnerable, open, every part of me was right out there and he hurt me BADLY. I feel like cutting myself, punching myself, starving myself, bingeing, drinking, ANYTHING. All this time I was so worried that I was gonna hurt him, that he wouldnt feel safe around me, and now he has hurt me and I dont feel safe. I dont want to end our friendship, but how I can I stay friends with someone who has done this to me? Someone who is so damaged that they would choose a person who hurt them repeatedly over someone who they admit is a light and positive presence in their live and who has never hurt them? His disease controls him, and it tells him to love those who abuse him and to be scared of true intimacy and love. I gave him that intimacy and love, and now he is punishing me and himself for it. I feel so stupid why didnt I see this coming? Why couldnt I sense that he was still in love with her, and wasnt in love with me? I am so ashamed that I was/am attracted to somebody this fucked up what does that say about me?

This isnt about me not wanting to be your friend because you no longer want to be romantic with me. This is about me being incredibly hurt because you were romantic with me while you were in love with someone else.
I already demonstrated that romance wasnt everything the first time you did not want to be romantic with me I understood that you couldnt be physical with me not because you didnt want to or because you were in love with someone else, but because of your survivor issues. You told me that you were in love with me, were attracted to me, and very much wanted to be romantic but could not for the time being because of your abuse issues. That was fine with me it was hard but I stayed friends with you. This time is different something did change. Yes, you no longer want to be romantic again, but for a very different reason you are in love with someone else. Not only that, but you have stayed in love with her during all of the romantic part of our relationship. In other words, all the times we were intimate you were not in love with me and I didnt know it. I cannot express in words how deeply that hurts me. Yes, I knew that you were grieving the loss of your romance and friendship with her, but I did not know that that meant that you had stayed in love with her and were not in love with me. I am very, very hurt that you were romantic with me under these circumstances, and I dont see how I can be friends with someone who would act like that and hurt me in the process. How could you be romantic and intimate with me if you were not in love with me? Yes, you loved and love me I have no doubt of that just like I have no doubt that I love you. But you told me to look at your actions, and your actions made me think that you were in love with me; I guess I thought wrong. I suppose this is somewhat of a typical female problem thinking that, even though the guy doesnt say hes in love with you, his actions make you think that he is until he tells you otherwise, then youre devastated. It must be my lack of romantic experience that prevented me from thinking about that, or thinking it could happen to me. I take responsibility for my part, whatever that turns out to be in the long run. Yes, I know that you never promised me anything (other than your friendship), we didnt make any commitments, and we took things one day at a time, but I thought you were in love with me. I thought thats what making love and being intimate meant. Again, I guess I was wrong and I shouldnt have assumed anything.
Why is it that we cant be friends right now? Is it because you wont kiss me or make love to me anymore? I hope to God you know thats not true. I cant be friends with you right now because I feel betrayed betrayed because while you were romantic with me you were in love with someone else and not with me and I didnt know it. And every time I will see or talk to you I will be reminded of this and it will hurt like hell over and over and over again. I need distance and time to let this mend, and the more the wound gets re-opened the longer it will take to heal.
You did not do this on purpose, I know that. I do not blame you. I am angry at the situation and the past that created it. I am angry that it is hurting us both like this.

Remember that time we were making love and you told me that my nervous laughter triggered you, and made you think that I wasnt making myself as open and vulnerable as you were making yourself? We talked it through and things turned out alright. Well, how open and vulnerable were you being if you werent in love with me and were in love with someone else? That doesnt seem right at all.

bravo for anyone who reads this. please, any words would be helpful at this point. i'm fucking devastated *cry*
 
Hi Natlie, sorry that you are hurting. Wish I knew a way to make you feel better. The only thing I can say is take care of you!

Take care,
Clifford
 
Hi, I don't know your entire history with your situation, but I feel for you. I am so scared that my own situation could end up like yours. I've been married 14 yrs next month with a 3 yr old, and 2 months ago my husband's behavior changed drastically to where he wants no intimacy or anything w/ me. He had CSA. I wonder if we'll ever be "intimate" again, at least physically.

Maybe your b/f is just going through a confusing phase of the healing right now. Maybe it's just one of the steps along the way. I hope that if you share all this with him he will find some compassion in him somewhere, maybe to see that he is hurting you almost the same as someone once hurt him, taking your trust away, etc., betraying you.

Sigh. I'm so sorry you're having this much pain right now. I wish I could fast-forward time about 2 years or 5 or 10 so I could see how things will turn out for both of us.
 
all i can say is his abuse is no reason or excuse to treat you like shit ,it pissed me off reading this post cause nobody deserves to be treated like that,used is more like it ,maybe what you said to him about only loving someone who hurts him could apply for you when it comes to him,please i'm not being mean or rude ,but could it be that ? love shouldnt have to hurt for any of us . shadow
 
Natalie,

There's a lot to be said here, but I will only comment on the fact that if David has been abused as a boy that doesn't release him from the obligation to behave responsibly in his relationships as an adult. From what you have said previously it sounds like you thought you had a relationship that had some abuse issues to face, but was still a loving and caring one. If he was in love with someone else for the whole time you two were together, then somehow or another it sounds like he has misled you and used you. That's just wrong, abuse or no abuse.

If his behavior is related to his past as an abused boy, it may be that he is frightened of genuine commitment. The scenario would go something like this: I am worthless and unlovable, and as I get closer to this woman and our relationship develops the risk becomes greater that she will figure out how worthless I am and leave me. So before that can happen, I will leave her.

If that's what he's doing, then any renewal of his relationship with this other woman will also become threatening to him eventually and he is likely to leave her as well.

You hit the nail right on the head when you say this:

Well, how open and vulnerable were you being if you werent in love with me and were in love with someone else?
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I am so sorry this has happened to you; you sure didn't deserve it. It looks to me like David is a guy who not only has abuse problems to face, but also a lot of growing up to do. His attitude towards relationships is selfish and irresponsible.

Much love,
Larry
 
Natalie,

I'm not asking you to answer this question if you don't want to, I just want to put it out there for you to think about. And I want to say THIS IS NOT ABOUT SHAMING YOU. NONE OF THIS MAKES YOU A BAD PERSON.

There is a strong theme in all your posts, about not wanting to be like other women, being better than other women, different from all the other women... one of your fears about D. is that he will see you as he sees other women...

Who were the women in *your* life? What did they do to you-- or not do for you? What is it behind your very strong drive to define yourself as a woman unlike other women?

You may say that you just don't want to be like the women in HIS life-- but that is a relationship that you chose-- something about that way of seeing yourself is powerful and attractive to you.

You are 25. I am too. When the women in your life have made "being a woman" seem like something that is NOT for you-- and you can't go back to being a girl-- suddenly you're at a place where there's a gap in your identity. Creating something oppositional as a way of filling the gap is one solution, but there are others. There are ways to be comfortable in your own female skin that aren't about locking yourself into the relationship with these other women that you are NOT LIKE. Does that make sense?

This guy was "romantic" with you for three months, and used a lot of fancy language and just enough affection to keep you on the hook while avoiding any committment-- didn't want to "be labeled" as your boyfriend, still felt "loyalty" to his ex and was "grieving" the end of their relationship (enough that she was still coming over to his place)-- OF COURSE he put it that way rather than saying that he still loved her--

and now he is putting up a hurt front and saying that he doesn't understand why it has to be all or nothing--

Natalie-- he wants to keep you on the hook-- and my fear for you is that he knows enough about how to push your buttons, that he will get what he wants, again.

My anger is that whatever the women in your life did or didn't do, no one gave you the tools to recognize and act on the red flags in a situation like this.

Please be good to yourself... and PM me if you want...

SAR
 
wow, you guys have given me so much to think about...

Originally posted by lostcowboy:
The only thing I can say is take care of you!
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thank you - i'm not very good at this yet but i'm trying.

Originally posted by Brokenhearted:
I hope that if you share all this with him he will find some compassion in him somewhere, maybe to see that he is hurting you almost the same as someone once hurt him, taking your trust away, etc., betraying you.
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i'm still on the fence as to whether or not i want to write him a letter or something - not a letter or blaming or criticism, but just to explain to him how i'm feeling.

Originally posted by shadowkid:
maybe what you said to him about only loving someone who hurts him could apply for you when it comes to him,please i'm not being mean or rude ,but could it be that ? love shouldnt have to hurt for any of us .
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this is the first time i've been in love, but i know from watching my fucked-up parents that love is NOT based on getting hurt. i know my parents provided me with a shitty model, and therefore i am suseptible to being in relationships where love hurts, but i'm gonna try like hell to NOT fall into that trap.

Originally posted by roadrunner:
If he was in love with someone else for the whole time you two were together, then somehow or another it sounds like he has misled you and used you. That's just wrong, abuse or no abuse.
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i know. i'm really wrestling with this right now. i don't know if he really was in love with her the whole time, or if he's just saying that now because he and i got too close and it scared him - either way it's a shitty way to handle things.


It looks to me like David is a guy who not only has abuse problems to face, but also a lot of growing up to do. His attitude towards relationships is selfish and irresponsible.
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i prefer to use the term "immature" to describe his attitude toward relationships. indeed, he has A LOT of growing up to do in that arena.

Originally posted by SAR:
Who were the women in *your* life? What did they do to you-- or not do for you? What is it behind your very strong drive to define yourself as a woman unlike other women?
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well, you're right in that my initial reaction is to say that i don't want to be like the women in HIS life, but i did indeed choose this relationship. my mother is very messed up - incest survivor, borderline personality disorder, enmeshed, etc. i guess i just don't want to be like her, because she has wounded me deeply, and i don't want to wound people like she's wounded me because then they'll leave me like i've left her. whew.

There are ways to be comfortable in your own female skin that aren't about locking yourself into the relationship with these other women that you are NOT LIKE. Does that make sense?
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i think i see where you're going with this. i'm gonna hafta chew on it for awhile, though.

Natalie-- he wants to keep you on the hook-- and my fear for you is that he knows enough about how to push your buttons, that he will get what he wants, again.
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a few of my friends view the situation in the same way, and i'm on the fence as to whether or not i completely agree. i know that if he is doing this it is not on purpose / consciously / intentionally - but in the end it hurts just the same as if he was, so does it really matter?
 
oh boy...

some stuff happened this evening, but i'm too exhausted to type it all out right now. i'll post about it tomorrow.

all i can say is i don't know what i'd do without a board like this. thank you all so much for your support. i hope you can all bare with me through this, but something tells me that if any group of people can, it's you guys. thanks again.
 
Natalie,

I'm so sorry you had this painful experience. To love someone enough to let them walk away from you takes a big heart. You feel you are doing the right thing but it hurts so bad. Your caring is very admirable.

Take care of yourself.

Sunny
 
ok, here's the update on last night...

he text messaged me several times yesterday, asking if we could talk but telling me he would understand if i didn't want to. finally, while i was at an al-anon meeting, he texted me saying that while he doesn't need me in his life he wants me in it, and he missed me so much. a few moments later he texted me saying that he was gonna call because he was in a bad way. i excused myself from the meeting to talk with him outside.

he started off the call by saying that he DOES need me in his life - i'm his only friend, the only person he trusts, etc. he was in very bad shape, sobbing and such. i listened, but also let him know that i am very hurt by his actions. he apologized at length, saying that he would make it up to me in the future. he told me that the night that i told him about my romantic feelings for him he was scared that if he "rejected" me that i wouldn't be his friend anymore. i then (perhaps unwisely) blurted out, "you were never in love with me, were you?" he started to lose it and said, "don't ask me that. i can't answer. i don't even love myself *sobchokesob*"

he made several references to checking himself into the hospital and maybe hurting himself. i checked to make sure that he wasn't going to hurt himself, and stayed on the phone with him awhile longer until he calmed down. we agreed to meet on tuesday to talk about our relationship issues.

i was pissed when i got off the phone with him. why? because he lied to me. either he was lying then (saying that he did want to have a romantic relationship with me when he didn't) or lying now (he was in love with me but now he's trying to sabotage it), but either way I WAS LIED TO. he told me that he didn't know what he could have done differently, that he owed it to me to be honest on friday - i said that yes, he did owe it to me to be honest, only he owed it to me 3 MONTHS AGO BEFORE THE ROMANTIC PART OF OUR FRIENDSHIP STARTED.

when i first told him about my feelings for him, i made it very clear that i would try my best to stay friends with him if my feelings were not reciprocated. in other words he had an out. but instead of sparing me the pain of learning the truth 3 months into our relationship, he spared himself the pain of losing me then by lying to me about his feelings. doesn't he realize that the chances of losing me by telling the truth then were A LOT SMALLER than the chances of losing me by telling the truth now? better yet, doesn't he realize that my level of heartbreak from learning the truth before anything romantic happened would have been SO MUCH SMALLER than the heartbreak of learning the truth 3 months in? FFFFUUUUCCCCKKKK!!!!

when i meet with him on tuesday, i'm going to give him the letter i'm attaching at the end of this post. i'm probably going to tweak and maybe add a few things, but i'm going to tell him to read it and then we can talk. THEN, i'm going to ask to see his therapist with him this week because I CANNOT HANDLE THIS ALONE. i am sorry that he doesn't have a support system, but i can't help him right now because he has hurt me too much, and i feel like the only other person in his life who can help me out is his therapist.

i think it's so unfair that the incest has caused him to hurt the one person he loves and trusts. goddamn that's fucked up. but i can't blame it all on the abuse, i know. he's a grown man and he fucked up. i'm just sorry that his perpetrators made him this way.

you guys, i know that he is not my responsibility (and he said that himself last night), but PLEASE, ANY WORDS OF ADVICE WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED. thank you so much.

here's the letter for tuesday:
Why am I hurt? Why do I need to not engage in our friendship for a while? Is it because you no longer want to be romantic with me? No. I already demonstrated that romance wasnt everything to me the first time that you did not want to be romantic, back before our Las Vegas trip. As understood it then, you could not be physically romantic with me because of your survivor issues. You told me that you loved me, were attracted to me, and very much wanted to be romantic but could not for the time being because of your abuse issues. Even though I was a little hurt at first, I ultimately tried my best to understand and stayed friends with you through it.
So, whats the difference between then and now? Why am I broken-hearted this time? Why cant I be your friend for a while this time? Because this time it is different something did change. Yes, the end result is the same you dont want to be romantic with me again. But this time it is for a very different reason it is because you are in love with someone else. Not only that, but you have been in love with her during the entire romantic part of our friendship. As I understand it, then, all the times we were romantic and physically intimate you were in love with her, not me, and I cannot express how deeply that hurts. I know that I took the first step when I made you aware of my romantic feelings toward you. However, I assumed that you would not have initiated being romantic with me if you were still in love with someone else and not with me. Of course I was aware that you were grieving the loss of your romance and friendship with her, but I did not know that that meant you had stayed in love with her and were not in love with me. I am very, very hurt that you were romantic with me under these circumstances. The fact that you were romantic and intimate with me when you were not in love with me, and were actually in love with someone else, feels like a betrayal. I know that you loved and love me I have no doubt of that, just like I have no doubt that I loved and love you. But you told me to look at your actions, and your actions made me think that you were in love with me; I guess I thought wrong. I know that you never promised me anything (other than your friendship), we didnt use labels, we didnt make any commitments, and we took things one day at a time, but I thought you were in love with me as much as I was in love with you. I thought thats what making love and being intimate meant. Again, I guess I was wrong and I shouldnt have made such an assumption.
One particular memory truly pains me. It was the night that we stopped making love because my nervous giggling was triggering you. You said that the fact that I was nervous lead you to believe that I was not making myself as open and vulnerable in the act of making love as you were. We talked it through, and I opened up so much that night, and I thought I was matching your level of openness, intimacy, and vulnerability. It hurts so profoundly to know that, while I was being as intimate as I have ever been and know how to be, you were in love with someone else, were not in love with me, and you werent being as intimate as I assumed you were, as you later informed me that you and she had been much more intimate than you and I had ever been. Im sorry to sound dramatic, but just putting this in words makes it feel like there is a knife in my heart.
So why is it that I cannot participate in our friendship right now? Is it because you wont kiss me or make love to me anymore? I hope to God that, from knowing me as a person and reading this letter, you know thats not the case. I cannot be friends with you right now because I feel betrayed betrayed because while you were romantic with me you were in love with someone else, not with me, and wasnt made aware of it. Every time I will see or talk to you for awhile I will be reminded of this and it will hurt like hell over and over and over again. I need distance and time to let this mend, and the more the wound gets re-opened the longer it will take to heal. One of my best friends has really hurt me, and regardless of intention or motive it is going to take time for me to heal. In addition, it is very painful to interact with someone who you have unrequited romantic feelings for (especially if you thought that those feelings were requited for a period of time). Unfortunately I do not know when the breach of trust wont hurt so much, or if or when the romantic feelings will subside. All I know is that I need to detach for a while to heal and sort out my feelings.
 
Natalie,

Again, I am so sorry all this is happening to you. Someone on the site once said: "Abuse: the pain that keeps on giving." He was so right.

I like your letter, also your idea of rereading it a few more times to tweak it here and there. But overall it looks good to me. You are very clear about where you stand and why.

Can I just comment on one other thing you said:

THEN, i'm going to ask to see his therapist with him this week because I CANNOT HANDLE THIS ALONE. i am sorry that he doesn't have a support system, but i can't help him right now because he has hurt me too much, and i feel like the only other person in his life who can help me out is his therapist.
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My first thought is that his T will probably feel he/she cannot agree to your proposal in the present circumstances. The T is too close to your guy's side of the situation and will have been focusing on HIS issues. I think many Ts would just refuse to accept what you suggest since the prospects that the session would get nasty would be very high. This sort of thing would need to be planned out and there would need to be some agreement about what will be discussed and what the benefits will be.

My other thought is that what you really need is a T to focus on the situation from the perspective of YOU and your needs, not from your partner's viewpoint. I really don't see how a T can help you except in a context where YOUR pain and hurt come first and don't depend on accommodating someone else. For that reason alone I would imagine that your partner's T would also feel unable to take you on as a separate client. And in fact, that would be the responsible thing to do, so far as I can see.

Much love,
Larry
 
roadrunner ,

i know you are right about the therapist situation - i just don't know what the hell else to do. i guess that we could both go to each other's therapy sessions week. shit, i don't know. i just know that i cannot handle this alone. somebody else (and i'm thinking that it needs to be his therapist because she's the only other person he has) needs to handle him right now because i can't because of how he has hurt me. i don't know what to do!!! :-( *cry*

natalie
 
Natalie,

The first thing you need to think of right now, as I see it, is that you are getting run over by a pretty big emotional freight train. The pain and trauma are just tearing you to pieces, and in a way, how could that not be the case?

I think you need someone to help YOU as YOU, and not as the partner of someone else. Maybe I'm wrong, but I see this joint therapy idea as something for further down the line, when some clear objectives can be defined. It looks to me like a possible path to even MORE hurt if you pursue it now.

We always get told that we should ask for the help we need. I think that's what you should do: get the help that YOU need to deal with everything that is happening. There needs to be somewhere in all this crap where Natalie comes first, just because she's Natalie.

Much love,
Larry
 
roadrunner,

thank you. i'm going to spend the day reflecting on how to handle this in MY best interests (and as that position is definitely not my default, that's going to take some serious thinking). i need to connect with my higher power and my inner self and figure out what feels right for me, regardless of what other think/feel/advise. shit, i've got my work cut out for me, huh? thank you for caring.

natalie
 
Natalie,

I actually just finished reading your post when I got your pm. Heres my take. Your friend is a mess. Is it because of the abuse? Is it because hes really torn between 2 woman? Is it because he really valued you as a friend but then made the terrible mistake of allowing that relationship to morph into a romantic one? Is it because he broke up with a woman who he thinks he loves and now has the chance to get her back? Is it because hes a 25/26 year old guy who really doesnt know what he wants in life yet? There are so many potential reasons and every one of them is valid yet not a damn one of them is good for Natalie. You care a great deal for this man and youve fallen in love with him. Now, he wants all the benefits of having someone to love him, yet none of the responsibility to love that person back, not in the way you want. I suppose thats really the bottom line. What you want is something he cant give. That doesnt make you bad for wanting it, it hurts. I happen to agree with you 100% that you cannot be friends with him at this point because its too painful for you. Pain caused by a love gone wrong does heal, but only with time and distance. You know that already.

What I would do in this situation is have your meeting with him on Tuesday. Give him the letter and talk, as calmly as you can. Do your best to leave the possibility of friendship open for a later time, but agree that you will not see each other for several months. I know its easy for me to write this and I know, first hand, thats its anything but easy to do. Natalie, youve been hurt tremendously, and like you say, whether it was intentional or not doesnt really matter; the pain is very real. It will get a little worse before it gets better after you see him on Tuesday, but then it will get better as long as you take care of yourself. Getting over a lost love is so painful, but its done day in and day out across the globe.

If your friendship can be picked up at a later date that would be wonderful, but there is only one way to do that and that is to set very specific boundaries for each of you, possibly you more than him. I think, Natalie, that you started to fall for this man well before you admitted your feelings to him, or maybe even yourself, and that what you saw as a blooming love, was for him a terrific friendship. Thats a pretty tough place for either one of you to be in.

I agree with Larry that asking to see his T would be a bad idea. Its up to him what and how much to tell his T; not you. Also, as Larry said, his T is focused on him which is as it should be. You deserve someone who is just for you. If therapy is way you want to go, then find someone who will be Natalies champion, not someone who is already committed to helping your friend. Unless you are specifically invited into that environment, it can only cause problems.

ROCK ON...........Trish
 
Natalie,

I just wanted to pick out a particularly powerful comment from Trish's comment to you:

There are so many potential reasons and every one of them is valid yet not a damn one of them is good for Natalie.
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That's so true, and I think it puts a useful perspective on your (very valid) questions: they are important but at the end of the day they all lead to the same thing - BAD and completely unacceptable for you.

Much love,
Larry
 
we met today, he read the (slightly revised) letter, and even though it's going to be very hard for both of us, there's *supposed* to be no contact until 9/10 (the next meeting of a step study we both belong to). i say "supposed" because he just text messaged me 15 min ago - it's so fucking hard not to open it but i'm going to have a program friend read it for me before a meeting tonight and she'll let me know if it's something i should see or not.

i'll fill you guys in on the details tomorrow. thank you so, SO much for your support.
 
ok, i would like some feedback regarding taking responsibility for my part in all this...

according to him, because he pretty much went from being with his ex to being with me he assumed that i knew that he was still in love with her and i was ok with that.

according to me, i (like i stated in my letter) assumed that he would not have not have initiated being romantic with me if he was still in love with his exgf. i thought that, since he was the one to initiate romantic behavior, that, although he was grieving the loss of their relationship, he was no longer "in love" with her.

now, i know that since this was my first romantic relationship that i was probably niave and immature about certain things, and i made some assumptions that were not wise. i know that it typically takes some time to "get over" a breakup (i'm referring to their breakup here, not ours). however, i *assumed* that since their relationship had been on the rocks for a few months and *he* broke up with *her* that he was no longer in love with her. i also assumed that it was not within his character to be in love with someone while he was acting romantic with someone else.

it hurts me to think that he thinks it's ok to be acting romantic with A while still in love with B, and it also hurts to think that he thought i knew and was ok with that. i'm certainly not ok with that, especially in my first ever relationship and my first experiences with making love (he's aware that this was my first, btw).

i guess i'm not sure as to whether or not i should have been the one to say, "hey, you just got out of a relationship and, even though *i'm* not looking to speed things up or slow things down, we should probably take things slow or maybe even wait awhile." my gut tells me that it was his responibility to say that to me since he was the one coming out of a relationship. again, i assumed that since he was initiating romantic behavior that he was no longer in love with her and was ready to move on. i realize that i'm not an CSA survivor and don't have the issues that come along with that, but if the tables were turned, i would not initiate romantic behavior until i was "over" my previous relationship (for the sake of both myself and my partner).

was it my responsibility to tell him to slow down?

[ETA] also, was it "right" for him to assume that i knew that he was still in love with his ex?
 
no way!and csa is not an excuse for using you which is what he did ,i would be so pissed off !I AM PISSED OFF JUST READING ABOUT IT!you gave him something you can never get back, sounds like a real a hole to me.sorry but no way are you responsible
 
Natalie,

I think there is a lot more going on here than your friends csa issues. First, I reread your older posts and realized that hes 40 and youre 25 - red flag #1. Youve both got some very serious childhood/adolescent/adult emotional issues in your past and present - red flag #2. You met at a 12 step program - red flag #3. You had never been involved in a serious, romantic relationship before and you were a virgin while he had been married for 18 years, has 2 almost adult children and was involved with at least one woman very shortly before the two of you became romantically involved - red flag #4.

OK, as for #1, Im not usually one to worry about age differences. If both people are mature and know what they want, then more power to them. But I dont see that here. Your chronological age may be 25, your intellectual abilities appear beyond that, but your emotional age, Im guessing is quite a bit younger and needier. Under the best of circumstances, at 25, very few of us have the life experience to handle the very real obstacles that have been placed in your way. You havent had the best of circumstances.

The reason red flag #2 is up is pretty obvious. You say so in your very first post:

Me: 25-year-old female. In doctoral program in clinical psychology. No history of previous romantic relationships. Major depressive disorder, codependency, very dysfunctional family. Attends 12 step groups and individual therapy.

..............Incest survivor (perpetrated by mother from birth to approximately 8 years of age), alcoholic (over one year of sobriety), PTSD (combat-induced), double depression (Major Depressive Disorder with Dysthymic Disorder). Attends 12 step groups and individual therapy.
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Red Flag #3 - You met in a 12 step program for all of the issues you stated above. Everyone I know who has been involved in any kind of ____ anonymous program (I am assuming here) has been told time and again by the leaders of the group and their individual sponsors that to get romantically involved with anyone in the group is a bad idea and it is openly discouraged. There are reasons for this. People in these groups are vulnerable for a host of reasons. They need a firm support system and a solid foundation which is why they have sought out the group in the first place. Its supposed to be a place where healthy relationships and behaviors are fostered. Friendships are developed, some which can last for the balance of a lifetime - thats healthy and good and the group is always there. If, however - Im guessing here - the two of you became romantically involved without the knowledge or approval of the group, then youre keeping an unhealthy secret and by the very nature of that, you are diminishing the value and usefulness of the group. Two vulnerable people trying to lean on each other while fighting their way through lives that have been hurt is, usually, disaster in the making.

Finally, you are a young, romantically inexperienced woman who got involved with a much more experienced man. I dont want to say bad things about him because I dont know him, so to put it as gently as I can, hes a 40 year old man with major issues - not just the ones that are unique to him, but those that haunt every relatively newly single 40 year old man or woman on the planet. So, when he saw a giving, caring young woman who showed an interest in him, who also happened to be completely naive in the romance department, to the point of being a virgin, well - he just couldnt resist. There was no thought process at all until after the damage had been done.

Now, did you make mistakes? Sure you did, but none of them was done with malice or anything but the best intentions. It was your naivety that set you up. You simply trusted the wrong person. Again, I really dont mean to sound so totally down on him, but he bears much more of the responsibility for your hurt than you do. CSA or not, intentionally or not, he hurt you by making foolish choices that did not consider what those choices would mean or do to you. That is his failing, not yours. Your friend has mountains to overcome which Im sure lead to his poor choices. I feel sorry for him because of that and I wish him health and a better life in the future. Regardless, he still has to be held responsible for his poor choices when he involves another person.

Im sure this is way more than you expected from me, so I apologize for the length of this post, but when I picture you, I picture my 19 year old daughter and it makes me very sad and angry that you find yourself in this position and if she came to me with a similar predicament, I dont think I would say anything differently.

Trish
 
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