Intimacy...

Intimacy...
Ivanhoe:

You said it all brother. There is nothing else quiet like intimacy in the human experience. I know your children will grow up in a loving environment
 
I thought I knew something about intimacy, but when my wife told me last year we were "not in a loving relationship" I started to wonder. There are still so many things that I can't share yet. Even here, when I have tried to write in the Survivor's Stories forum I never go through with it. And it's not that I'm going to shock anybody here with it; it's some problem I have with letting something so personal out.

Like Bob said,
Intimacy requires trust and that does not come quickly for a survivor.
Click to expand...
My wife and I are working on the same page now, and our marriage is improving. I have three beautiful children, and I thank God for them. But there's the shame thing, the walled off emotions.

I don't know what I'm talking about. I tend to ramble when I try to apply what I've learned about the effects of abuse to myself. At least now I have some place to ramble while I work through this.

Joe
 
Sometimes when I check in here I'm staggered by what I read, tonight is one of those nights.
Where else could we get this kind of talk amongst a bunch of guys who don't even know each other ?

There's so much positive stuff here from Mike, Zadok, Ivanhoe and all the others, we've even got a new guy Jimrh putting his first post into this difficult subject, Welcome Jimrh, thanks for you post.

There's so much encouragement in what you guys write for guys like me, it makes sense. Maybe it's made sense to me for a long while, but I just couldn't get a handle on it. Sometimes we have to think outside the box (to use a dreadful management cliche ) and your thoughts are helping me to do that.

With a friend You share a part of the only thing you own; your body. And that part is your brain. It is what makes you unique. It contains your emotions, beliefs(real or imagined) and your humanity. Sharing that part of you with someone is huge. AND WE HAVE ALL DONE IT HERE [Big Grin]
Click to expand...
Mike, somehow I can walk the walk, but I don't seem to get anywhere. I can talk in any amount of intimate, and emotional detail with my wife, as I do here, but although I have the desires and the intelectual knowledge of "what and why" is going on, I just can't make those final steps.

You have to totally let go of all your reservations, doubts and fear. It is sharing with someone at every level of your being. To achieve it, a person must place their trust totally in another, and that was very hard for me. I had to trust my wife with all the ugliness I had always hid, with all the embarrassing sexual fantasies and past I had. I had to trust her not to judge me, and to support me and love me despite those things. Not everyone would be lucky enough to find a person that would do that, but I was.
Click to expand...
Zadoc, I already have a wife who wants to share at every level, and I do to. I have trust in her, total trust. I think I don't yet trust myself fully, something to work on eh ?

The only wall between us is mine, I know that, and I've wrecked all the other walls I had.
Perhaps the other walls crumbled fairly easily compared to this one, and it's something I didn't expect ?
I've come this far, and I ain't going to be beaten.

Thanks for the inspiration.

Dave
 
Mike, somehow I can walk the walk, but I don't seem to get anywhere. I can talk in any amount of intimate, and emotional detail with my wife, as I do here, but although I have the desires and the intelectual knowledge of "what and why" is going on, I just can't make those final steps.
Click to expand...
Dave,

That's almost exactly how I feel. My wife has listened and listened. I actually lose my voice and sometimes stutter (unusual for me). And I get afraid just imagining talking about some things, even though I feel safe with her.

The only wall between us is mine, I know that, and I've wrecked all the other walls I had.
Perhaps the other walls crumbled fairly easily compared to this one, and it's something I didn't expect ?
Click to expand...
I do think the wall is mine. I built it for a reason, and I've grown so accustomed to it that somehow I'm not ready to tear it down. I think maybe I'm knocking some holes in it, a little at a time, and perhaps one day soon it too will crumble.

Thank you for the inspiriation!

Joe
 
Lloyd:
You cant make that final step. Yup it is a hard one but think a bit about it. You are fearful cause you never done it brother since the shit hit the fan. Everyone is afraid of the unknown, without exception. If they say otherwise they are fooling themeselves.

It is much akin to those brave soldiers in Iraq putting themselves in harms way. All the practice for it cannot compare to the real thing. And I have heard lately some pretty tought young marines saying yeh they were scared but they did it anyway. And that my brother is the essence of your fear. Fear itself.

There comes a time when we gotta take that step come hell or high water. And it is better to take it now than when it is too late.

Give it a try. Just close your eyes hold your breath and let go totally. You will find that it is totally unfamiliar and yet at the same time the most devastatingly comfortable feeling in the world.It is like a nectar of the gods I am telling you. I have found it on occasion and it has only wet my thirst for more ,more and even more of it. smile
 
well, what can I say............

I knocked a small hole in the wall today :D
And it felt good, but you're right Mike - fear is the cement of the wall for me.
But I've overcome worse fears ( I think :confused: ) and TOGETHER we are overcoming this fear.

I talked during sex, asked for things to be done, and if I could do anything different, I allowed myself to have full body contact, ( is this toooo much detail :o ) and I recognise that we 'made love' No fantasy either, which was so good - because there was no guilt after for having a 'sick mind'

All I have to do now is repeat the happy event....

I have to say that this whole topic has helped me immensely. Just the fact that I could express some thoughts, get some ideas back and know that I wasn't alone has helped me to approach the problem in a different way, I hope it carries on. Thanks.

Dave ;)
 
Lloydy:

Great for you! :)

During sex I used to lie as still as possible and never talk or make any noise. My sexual partners would usually feel uncomfortable with it but I would not (could not?) change. In the last few months I have made attempts to remedy this and it has been working great so far. I think I participate much better now in sex and it actually feels better too. It all started with a step like yours and you are right in that you have begun to knock down that wall. :)
 
SP

I think I participate much better now in sex and it actually feels better too.
Click to expand...
Today it felt as though I had taken sex out of my head and into my body, I thought more about the great sensations my body felt and less about the crap I usually do - the fear of failure, SA based memories / fantasies, feeling like 'an abuser' because I instigated sex, worrying whether my wife was liking what I was doing ( I just asked, how hard is that ??? )

That's too much crap to think about AND enjoy myself, I must remember that....

Dave :rolleyes:
 
I was out of town yesterday and most of today but when I returned to this post I felt like a little kid observing with big, wide-eyes. Most of this is so new to me that at this point I don't really know what to say. I'm still processing it. Truely, I do feel like a little kid observing something for the first time. I know that I have more questions and issues to raise but I'm not really sure what they are.

Dave,
When you first mentioned that this was a sad thread I began to question whether I should have started it in the first place. But the way that it progressed was pretty cool and it put any doubts to rest.

MikeChurch,
You are a guru. What else can I say?

Enough for tonight. I need to sleep on this issue some more.
Time for bed,
mike
 
Straying off topic:

Sleepy, please stop doubting what you write. Sharing our Strengths, Experiences and Hopes is what this place is all about. The good, the bad, and everything in between.

We all have our truths and need to claim ownership of our right to express what was supressed and ripped away from us. Newcomers and oldtimers to MS, those with years of recovery and those just starting recovery or in the midst of the painful beginnings of awareness of the damage caused by their sa, we all have equally valid points to share.

Getting back on topic:

Lloydy reply about this being a sad post is true for me. It goes beyond sadness in fact for me.

My two cents about this thing called Intimacy.

Those who wrote about their difficulty gazing into someone else's eyes reminded me of a post I made awhile back about looking into a mirror. I had a spiritual moment of being able to not hate my appearence and, in a way not hate myself. Maybe looking someone else in the eyes becomes easier when one can look into their own with acceptance.

I can see a little more clearly now the wisdom of a commonly expressed belief - we can't truly love (and by extension be intimate) another human being without first (underscore first) loving ourselves. In other words, being intimate begins with knowing, accepting and loving (that sooo difficult for me emotion) ourselves in some manner. [I don't know about those who can love others but not themselves, I've no clue how that works].

For me, the worse thing taken from us by our abusers is our ability to trust, relate to, and be intimate with others. The younger we were when the abuses began makes the relational damage even more tragic and devastating and thus the more difficult our journey toward healing.

This thread is another example of hope shining forth, that some us have intimacy in their lives, that some of us are learning how to be intimate.

Maybe some day I'll be able to be in an intimate, meaningful relationship. First things first. I'm left with having to heal myself or I'll never having love and intimacy in my life.

jer
 
Guy43...what you wrote is somewhat how I feel and why I can't get even a feeling for the topic of intimacy.

I'm sure that you must first love yourself. But how do you do that? It doesn't seem like you just change a spark plug in your brain and one day you wake up and bingo...I LOVE ME.

Do we really ever get to that point or do people just think they're there (loving yourself) and are coping somehow, how do you know it's real (I have a lot of doubt about this one).

So back to the word Intimacy - "the act of being intimate - a very personal, warm friendship or relationship developed through long associaton" - Websters.

So how did this word get translated to being able to trust?

Sounds to me like we lack the ability to be intimate with someone because perhaps we aren't friends even with ourselves....back to loving yourself, not that we don't trust someone or lack the ability to trust. Back to Self-Esteem. Maybe that's what it's all about?
 
Jer,
I remember that post quite clearly and I'm glad that you mentioned it. It appears as though these two posts have come together. If you remember, I made mention that I have this scar on my right shoulder and forever I was ashamed of it. It wasn't until I realized that it was an external manifestation of how I felt on the inside. I felt so much shame because I believed people could view on the outside how I felt on the inside. Just knowing that has helped me immensely in accepting myself.

being intimate begins with knowing, accepting and loving ourselves in some manner.
Click to expand...
If this is the case then we must have to willingly letting down your guard to understand ourselves. I think that by just coming to Male Survivor we are letting our guard down just a little. And therefore we are starting to understand ourselves.

I also think the self-esteem issue is very valid. I believe that trust has never been a big problem for me. However when you don't understand yourself and you think you are a worthless piece of s**t, there is no way you could let someone see into your soul, let alone yourself. You guard yourself just too much. And unfortunatly the self-esteem issues tend effect everything. Careers, friendships, relationships, and everything else. So maybe the first step is to let our guards down and understand ourselves?
Mike
 
I'm sure that you must first love yourself. But how do you do that? It doesn't seem like you just change a spark plug in your brain and one day you wake up and bingo...I LOVE ME.
Click to expand...
I'm sure Jim has hit the nail on the head here, along with Sleepy and Jer.
It's our problem, and not our partners for the most part.
We struggle with the strange feelings that go against intimacy, and we struggle because our self esteem, self worth, confidence and trust have been ripped away so long ago. We don't love ourselves.

And there's no instant fix for sure, we've tried to fix ourselves for so long and failed in as much as we couldn't make ourselves better, We survived by using our various survival techniques, but we got no better. I for one got worse as my survival techniques became tired, and then more extreme.

with the right help through therapy, and my own efforts I got better - slowly I admit - but compared to how I was 5 or 6 years back I'm a different person. Now I do have self esteem, confidence etc. Maybe not as much as I'd like or I might have had in different circumstances, but I have more than before, and I'm thankful for that I can promise you.

Do I love myself ? maybe I do.
Maybe it's something I can't yet admit to myself because I know I still have traces of my old survival techniques within me. I was always a big 'self destructor' and constantly put myself down because I was unable to accept that I could do anything well or succesfully. I recognise that at work still, but it's not much and I can usually deal with it.

So, where does that leave me ? well I think that it's all a part of the slow recovery process.
Sometimes it's so gradual we don't notice what's happening to us until we push ourselves a bit.
And that's hard for us as well because we don't believe we are capable of pushing ourselves, we hang around until somebody comes along to drag us, at least that's how I was.
I needed a kick in the arse, and this topic gave it to me. It might not be the complete answer, but it's got me started.

Dave
 
I've always had the same problem with looking people in the eyes. I've had so many employers tell me that I've lost count.

I always keep people at an arms length too,(literally). If I'm talking to someone and they take a step towards I take a step back, they take another, I take another. Even with my wife.

I remember over the summer when I was seventeen some girl was yelling at me for not looking at her while I talked to her, so I looked at her and she said something like "don't look at me like THAT!!", I'm still not sure what the problem was, I wasn't attracted to her at all, as a matter of fact, she probably weighed three bills (300 pounds (136 kg)). For me its always better to look away.

My wife always says it is like I am hiding behind a wall or something (I can't remember the exact words).

I'm working with my therapist about being too scripted. Sometimes when I talk to someone they ask me if I am reading something outloud, I know this is because of one of my perp's mind games. Usually I used to try to figure out what both ends of the conversation were going to be before it started. I was able to map them out with alarming accuracy. In college I used to tell people sometimes, he's going to say this, then I'm going to say this etc. When I watched movies I used to figure out exactly what was going to happen not only the ending, but what the subplots and twists were likely to be.

I also forbid my wife from surprizing me, and I almost always pick out my own birthday and Christmas presents in advance. I usually decide where she should buy it too.

Peace
MO Healing
 
Les:

I too am unable to make eye contact. When someone is speaking to me I never know where to look. I can't look in their face and I don't want to look at any part of their body in case they think I am "checking them out" but if I gaze off to the side or in the distance it looks as if I am not listening... so I usually dart my eyes all around while avoiding the face... and nod a lot.

I find myself mapping out possible conversations in my head, too. If I anticipate that I will be talking to someone soon I map out what I will say and what their response will probably be. It makes me less nervous of a suprise.
 
Sleepy, all I can say to you is; the book don't sweat the small stuff...and its all small stuff helped me find comfort in having relationships on all levels. I was screaming out to my wife for intimacy but didn't really know what it was. Therapy helped me with that.
I think you once said that therapy was something you did not want to do............?
Well as someone once said to me in regards to my thinking I could do it (heal) on my own...."how's that been working for you so far"?!
Best of luck to you my friend, Ed
 
One truth about intimacy I have found is that it is very fragile. All it takes is one secrete, and all the defensive walls that shut people out go back up. It is a huge leap of faith to set down with your mate, and tear down the walls. You have to overcome fear, and allow someone else to see you at your worst. In my case it ended well, but I realize that it is not always that way. I have talked to many here and other places that came out about the abuse, and were totally rejected, and that is certainly a risk. Yet, if it works out, the rewards are beyond measure. I think about all the years and energy I wasted trying to hide it all, and I kick myself for not releasing it sooner. Do you know how freeing it is to finally be yourself? To finally be able to admit how you really feel about life, is fantastic.

I have also found that if something forces me back into hiding again, I loose the intimacy almost at once. All the old defensive walls spring right back up, the silence; the isolation and loneliness are quick to grab hold. Dave I have felt the rapture of being truly sexual that you speak of, a moment when you are totally with your mate in every sense of the word. Once you have tasted it, you want more, and that keeps you working on the right things.

I want to warn you about some things that are waiting though. There will come a time when you can no longer reach that level of intensity, where it becomes old if you will. It seems to level off after a time, to where you become numb, and take it for granted. That is when you are ripe for something going really wrong. I try to take time to always look back, and remind myself where I came from. It is important to safeguard your gains, and not take it for granted.

Another thing I have found is that I was unprepared for living in a relationship based on intimacy. Maintaining a one on one relationship, devoid of outside things is hard. On an emotional level it becomes easy to slip into a routine, where life looses its spark. That wall is a big part of who and what you are, and when you remove it, there is a big hole there. At first it is filled with the excitement and freshness of all this new openness and closeness, but when that fades, you feel the void. We all want rid of the effects of abuse, but when it is gone, much of who and what we are goes with it. It is vital to fill the space with something. I have a new son, and am working hard to make things better with my older boy and wife. That fills the empty time at least for now, but when I sit alone, I still feel a gnawing hunger for the missing emotions I have let go of. I wanted out of the victim thing so bad, but part of me needed all that crap.

I hope you keep growing and building, and I know you have helped me a lot. Hang in there.

jeff
 
Jeff
I know what you're saying here, only too well I suppose.
In some way's I've already lived some of it. When we were first married sex was great, but complacency sets is and the novelty wears off, and this is another reason the fantasy took over and I started to act out.

For a long while now sex has not been a big part of our lives, but we have become remarkably close and trusting, so an improvement of any kind will be something. And we both have the will, and some new ideas and tools, to move our lives together forward. But there's no denying where we have been, and as long as we never go right back there that's fine by us.

Thanks
Dave
 
Ed,
I've heard of the book Don't Sweat the Small Stuff, but maybe I'll pick it up the next time I'm at Borders. Thanks for the recommendation. As for therapy, I think you have me confused with someone else. I've been back in therapy since October and I was quite willing to go. Good luck with your family and despite what you have had to go through I have enjoyed reading your posts.

Jeff,
I was very pleased to read your post. It seemed like a very nice way to wrap up this thread. I wish I could make more of a comment on it but I am just too inexperienced when it comes to this issue. However I can tell that you have put a lot of thought and energy towards understanding this. Thanks for sharing it because it gives me much to think about.

mike
 
just a quick reply, as it is late and i am feeling sort of sleepy, and also have not read the whole thread yet (ps - such a great topic, i have so much to say, and so many questions to ask, i wish we could all meet and sit down and talk).

i feel intimacy is a double-edged sword for SA survivors. at least in my experience, i rely on intimacy as a way to feel okay, a "substance" to release the pain. intimacy is a drug for me. without it, i am hopeless, meaningless and desperate. exactly at the point i am at right now in my life. if you have not read my first post, my girlfriend of two years broke up with me a couple of months ago, because i used her as a crutch. a leaning post, someone to fill me with happiness and distract me from my inner chaos. however, just like a drug, it eventually becomes harmful...a potential threat. i started to believe in my own insecurities and question her, fearing that i wasn't good enough, that i was just someone she used, someone she can just step all over.

i have more to discuss here...but at another time. tis late and i have much to try to do tomorrow.

one more thing: Sleepy, every word, every phrase, and each sentence you have wrote has tapped into the deepest abyss of my soul...i cannot tell you how grateful i am that you started this thread...and to all of you brothers who have inspired this topic, replied to this topic, and read this topic, i cannot express my gratitude in mere words...many, many thanks

mike
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top