Incursion into hostile ground...

Incursion into hostile ground...
Originally posted by reesersgrl:

I am sitting here KNOWING that I have done everything in my power to be there for him, but being made to believe that I have done nothing.
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"It ain't so much the things you don't know that get you in trouble. It is the things you think you know that just ain't so!"
Artimus Ward (1834-1867)


Sometimes what a survivor needs is not obvious. Sometimes he may not need loving words (it may seem condescending to him). Oftentimes he won't know what he needs, so asking might not do the trick either. Sometimes he just needs to lash out - don't allow it to be towards you.

Sometimes he needs just an ear without a mouth. That's kinda blunt - I don't mean any offense to anyone. There have been a few times I asked my wife to please just sit and listen. Don't say a word, and loose the "sympathy puppy eyes". I just needed to say the words and have someone hear 'em. In my case it was about having problems directing my rage. When I was done, she said "is that it?" I said yes, she said "I hope I helped", got up and left the room. No judgement, no sympathy, no loving touch - It just felt good that someone else knew what I was battling at the moment.

If he's telling you you're doing nothing for him then IMHO he's giving you a hint - try doing nothing except waiting, loving, and refusing to put up with any crap.

Above all, he needs someone to believe and expect that he can and will improve.
 
When a man recoils from the touch of one who loves him, there is a reason. There are many possible reasons. For me it is a failure of trust. Sometimes, but not always, justified.

My abused child does not always see clearly the difference between a loving or a demanding embrace. Do you hold me to reassure me or for your own reassurance? I despise being hugged by my mother! She demands a degree of acceptance and forgiveness from me which she will not give to me in return. Yet other, more well intentioned souls, I will embrace and pour out my empathic well being as a healing force.

What is it you want from your partners, and more importantly, why? If you honestly want to help them then you must realize that they will never become the perfect person you wish them to be. And you must understand your own motives behind the help you offer. Sometimes the thing that you think you are giving is in fact a thing you are demanding.

You will achieve more positive results when your intentions are clear within yourself. Do you touch me to heal me or do you touch me to be reassured? Is your help a gift or a demand? It is not too much to ask that you examine your own motivations.

Aden
 
Aden,

Geeze Louise you're Ex sounds like a real looser! I'm happy for you that you're one of the things she lost :) .


You hit the bullseye when you recommend that partners and family do some serious self-examination. I think it's human nature to get on a track and stay there, rolling along comfortably figuring if the direction we're going was good when we headed out, it's still good now. Even if we see a bridge out ahead, it's really tough to change direction.

I've been told that it's normal to expect those around us to treat us well, or at the very least to not hurt us. I've been told that healthy people strive to be better tomorrow than they are today. Survivors need partners to serve as examples of healthy behavior - and make sure they don't get sucked down with us.
 
My only intention, Aden, was to give him love, to let him know that he is loved and cared for. I have listened and I have tried not to judge. I definitely have a better understanding of some things now, because I have made it a priority to inform myself. I think the partners who are here have only the best intentions and selfish reasons arent a part of that.
 
Aden,

This is what I have to say, I hope you will try to understand it.

Your previous marriage sounds pretty terrible. I'm sorry you had to experience it, and sorry that there were children involved in it.

A forum like this, meant to foster open discussion about the tricky work of relationships with survivors, works best when people in all kinds of situations can honestly speak from their own experiences.

It does not work as well when you come in and judge others, or paint them all with the same brush, based on those experiences.

But the point is, she never had a clue that she was unable to see the other side of things
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I'd suggest to you that the entire point of this forum is for partners to educate themselves and seek answers with open minds, because they have already recognized that there is more going on than what they can see.

None of us found this site because we were looking for a board to condemn and complain about the survivors in our lives. Partners find this site the same way most everyone else does-- looking for answers and information about male sexual abuse. And if any came here thinking that they had the whole picture, I'm sure they didn't think it for long-- a quick overview of the articles here or the survivors board is enough to prove that.

You and I, like everyone else on this forum, can only speak from our own knowledge and experience. My experiences in life and reading this forum have validated quite a few of the points you're making-- there are some who would demand from others and call it a gift. There are some who would rather not examine their selfish motivations for overinvolvement in another's healing. There are some who'd rather not realize their imperfections. I am not at all offended that you would point out when something you read here resonates with your own negative experiences, and offer truth based on that.

But as a partner who has done an awful lot of the self-examination and forgiveness that you're suggesting is so uncommon among spouses, I was offended that you assumed so much-- or maybe so little-- of the friends and family in this community. At least that was the impression I, and some other members here, got from your first two posts in this thread.

If you believe, from your experiences and what you've read here, that you have helpful truth to offer the friends and family of survivors, why not begin by telling us what about the posts here, or your own situation, makes you offer that advice?

Instead you came into a forum of hurting, loving people, made statements that devalued our hurt and our love, suggested that all of us expect too much of the survivors in our lives, and then stated your expectations of us, which I have to say, are not realistic, if you read the posts in this forum.

Did you truly expect to be attacked for speaking from your own past hurt, or for making honest and respectful suggestions about how we can help our loved ones?

What expectations do you have, exactly, when you come into a forum full of posts that demonstrate a rather high level of self-examination, forgiveness, hope, strength, and open-minded love-- and then address the entire community as if we have no grasp on these concepts?

Your opening comments here made more than one partner of a survivor uncomfortable, not because we saw an uncomfortable part of ourselves in them, but because we don't like to have unfair demands presented to us in the form of assistance either.

Aden, I don't want my words to deter you from offering specific, respectful observations about what you read here. I'm glad you were able to share your truths despite your fear, and I'm not suggesting that you not share them because they are hard to accept. I am just asking you to take a look at how the first two posts in this thread were offensive to some of us here.

I'd like to ask you your own question: What is it you want from the friends and family here? And why? What are the motives behind the help you offer?

I'm neither a saint nor a judge, and I'd like to give you what you want from us, if I can.

SAR
 
I'm a survivor but I can't make it through all the posts. They are so incredibly good and touching, I sit here with tears in my eyes.

I want to learn how to trust. I want to learn to respect women. I want to learn to respect myself.

I couldn't give a hot hoot about eloquence. This board has been a godsend. When I first started reading info on this site it scared me because I was looking in a mirror. It was like you knew my life history.

What did I do to deserve all the terrible things done to my mind, my body, my soul? I was a good boy when I was 11. I really was, but I got used and used and used.

I sit here crying.

To all spouses of a survivor, you must understand that you are a heavenly angel sent to take the misery out of our lives. You can't even begin to imagine the hell we live in. There were things my wife wishes I hadn't told her.

It takes a lot of courage to post here. At 16, my first T abused me. I think he called it sex therapy and I was his whore for 3 years.

Three very long years.

I lost my soul when I was 14. I felt it leave my body.

There are many things I've never told a T. There are many things I've never told my wife. There are many things I've never told myself.

I would like to love, honor, and respect my parents, but when I was 13 I told them about the rampant sexual abuse in our dorm and by the rabbis and their response was there was nothing they could do! How can parents do something like that? Now they say that was so long ago. To this day they have never even apologized. I begged them to just say they were sorry but they refused. There was nothing they could do!

So the next time any of you family members complain how difficult we are, whether in a post or to your spouse, or just to yourself, just try to imagine what it feels like to be raped. The physical pain alone.

If you go to church or synagogue or whatever, go over to your spiritual leader and while he is talking to you imagine that he is fondling you in the church? Well, that is what happened to me. I was a teenager.

Just a little food for thought.

I do not mind if people PM me. I only ask that you never, ever judge me.
 
Kakdla

and I was his whore for 3 years.
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No, you were NEVER his 'whore' - he was the whore, which my dictionary describes as "an offensive term for somebody regarded as sexually indiscriminate".

He was the one 'indiscriminate' one, as indeed were all your abusers.
Remember exactly how powerless you were and how powerful they were. Were you being 'indiscriminate'?

No.

Dave
 
Kakdla,

Thank you for bringing this important message forward to our helpmates. Your openness is courageous. It doesnt SEEM like we know you personally. We DO know you personally. And welcome you as part of our selves.

Aden
 
TRIGGER WARNING

I wish I knew you or someone like you when I was a teenager. I started going to xxx movies when I was 16. It mirrored my life and I mirrored its life. In part of one of the movies I saw, there was a scene where people went to see a snuff film. I saw a bound and ball-gagged woman stabbed to death.

I saw movies made to look like real life, not actors, where women were raped. It showed women first fighting then enjoying the rape.

I never fought and I never enjoyed.

Where I grew up it was ok to have sex with a boy but forbidden to even look at a girl. Women were considered impure.

If I upset anyone, I do apologize, but I have to speak.

K
 
Hey K!

I may be wrong about this, but I think only original authors & Mods can delete posts.

Mods only get involved if there is something harmful or fake about the writing.

The sentiments you have expressed are all honest & moving. You give the rest of us a lot to think about.

Please consider yourself "family" here.
 
Originally posted by Aden:
Lets use my ex-wife as an example.

*snip*

Maybe by rights you should never have to forgive an others weakness. But love forgives none the less.

*snip*

All that I am suggesting is that before you pass harsh judgments on your partners, take a long look in the mirror. Are you the saint you think yourself to be? Im not. I was moody! But not all of my bad attitude was the result of CSA.

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Lets try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt on here.. we should all try not to map our experiences onto others experiences.. we're all different. And in relationship difficulties it is not only one person's or the other's behaviour that is causing the problem.. it USUALLY is a case of both partners contributing into a difficult or messy or challenging system... half of which (our partners issues) happened WELL before we even came on the scene.. which is probably the most difficult thing for us. We often have to pay for the sins of people who hurt our beloved WELL before we even showed up.

Unconditional love is a difficult thing - While I do love my husband I sometimes abhor some of the things he DOES and I cannot accept them.. there's a big difference between WHO someone is and their BEHAVIOUR.

I deep down know my H is a great and loving man but sometimes in reaction to his past he's pretty hurtful to me and I refuse to accept that beahviour. Does that mean I dont love him because I dont let him say and do whatever he wants to me when he gets angry/triggered? No. And because I love him does that mean I have to put up with disrespectful or mean behaviour? No. If over time he continues to treat me with disrespect and I decide to end the relationship does that mean I dont love him? No - but it does mean that I love myself and respect MYSELF I dont want to submit myself to something that I feel to be difficult or abusive or hurtful to my own self anymore. Sometimes when locked in cycles of dysfunction we have to take some tough stands with either ourselves or with others in order to break them.... While I can handle some challenges in my relationship with my H I dont think I'd be willing to put up with the same old same old FOREVER. I have to see some willingness to accept some of the problems in our relationship and a willingness to continue working on himself and our relationship. If it ever stagnates and hes not open to continuing to work with me then I dont know how long we'd stay together...

P
 
I told my wife she that she is an angel. Her response was that she's far from that. We all have our weaknesses.

We are the sum of our experiences.

I live a very productive life. I learned how to swim a year ago though I was terrified of water. Then I learned how to dive though I had a fear of heights and vertigo.

I put mind over matter.

I have accomplished many things in life, but I just cannot reconcile how my parents did nothing when I told them about all the abuse when I was 13. My parents were pillars in their community. They were well thought of.

They weren't going to let little me ruin everything for them. I was mere garbage.

So, how do I reconcile that my parents didn't care? And don't go and tell me they did their best.

If your child came to you today and told you they were being fondled by grown men, would you say there is nothing you can do? Where was my parents' resposibility?

Don't tell me it's the past. Don't tell me to get over it. That's what my parents say. They say there is nothing to apologize for.

It's so hard for me to understand how someone could possibly love me. Why would they feel that way? My parents didn't even love me.

I always felt that I was adopted. I knew real parents could never do anything like that. So how the hell am I supposed to honor my father and my mother?

And since they refuse to even mouth the words of apology, why should I care when they die? Why should I sit in mourning? Why should I pray for their souls?

If they had only pulled me out of that school I would not have been fondled. I would not have been raped. But they didn't care about me.

I can't even imagine not helping my child. My parents gave up on me when I was 11. By time I was 13 I was just... I was nothing.

But I don't sit around having pity on myself. I work hard, I care for my family and I care for myself.

By the way, there's nothing like diving off a diving board. I know there aren't too many 5o year olds that do it, but I've never let something like that stop me.

I've had people in their 50's and 60's tell me that I was their inspiration to learn how to swim. What an incredible feeling!

If I didn't believe anyone could overcome a limitation, I wouldn't be fighting so hard with my past.

If you are not a survivor, be patient, because we are also patient with you. You may have shortcomings but we were deprived of our dignity.

I got my first T when I was 16. He told me that it was perfectly normal to have sex with men. When I told him I wanted a sex operation he told me to wait until I was 21. He told me a lot of things. He was very abusive but I was stupid. I did whatever he told me to do.

I'm sure someone is going to say I wasn't stupid. Ok, I wasn't stupid. I wasn't brave enough to kill myself. I tried so hard but no one wanted to kill me. I gave so many people a chance.

I sold my body for sex. I stood on a street corner in a short skirt, heels, makeup and a wig. I was a 16 year old boy. Try to imagine. I didn't do it for the money because I gave all the money to someone else. I didn't do it to buy drugs because I didn't take drugs. I didn't need drugs.

I had sex while other people watched. I had sex with animals. Besides the people who were animals. I walked around nude and strangers touched me. It didn't matter to me.

I had lost my soul years ago. No one cared about me. No one. A rabbi would take my penis out of my pants in synagogue and masturbate me. I learned to get used to anything. Anything.

I soon got into BDSM. And I'm talking about incredible pain. I could handle anything. I did this until I met my wife. She was the first person I was ever with in a sexual relationship who refused to hurt me.

I thought she didn't love me. How could someone love me if they refuse to hurt me?

K
 
I know this probably sounds so lame and silly KAKDLA but as I sit here with tears I want to hug you and tell you how important you are. You make me hug my kids a little tighter and wish even more to make a better connection with my estranged husband. Thank you.
 
Val

Thank you for your reply. I was hesitant about getting so personal. I'm so afraid people won't believe what happened to me was true. I dared the devil. I dared death. And by not dying I was stronger than death. Death didn't even want me. That's how bad I was.

I did crazy things, and nobody cared.
 
KAKDLA, and everyone...

This is why I'm here. Because I DID believe a 17 year old boy. And you will too if one ever comes up to you and tells you things that you tried to tell "responsible adults".

The thing is...with the thread...if I can remember everything...EVERYONE has some kind of 'issue'. This site is for male survivor issues and how to make it work. For me, the guys' input was crucial.

I know that trust is a biggie. It's even an issue with me, and I'm not a "survivor". Here, some people can trust more than they ever have been able to in their entire lives. Maybe from the anonymity, maybe from finally knowing someone "gets it".

I have so appreciated the guys who helped me know what to do. To me, that is what 'support' means..."this is what I'm seeing...what can I expect, and what should I do?"

I wish I knew how to say what I want to say!

I don't see Aden as trying to offend anyone.

Here's one way I can explain how I may feel if I were one of the guys trying to help out here. If I went somewhere to help with a music thing, and people were bringing up all the "dirt" on people who play Gibson guitars, I'd probably take my guitars and go home. If instead they asked me how I replace the strings, I would tell them...even show them.

Yes it's hard. Yes it all hurts. But as someone said up there...I think Kolisha...anger only fosters more anger. We all need to vent sometimes, but I think maybe venting about the strings instead of the whole guitar may be less hurtful for the other guitars who just want to make good music!

Lloydy is such a great example. He always has something encouraging to say. Even when he has a not so good day, he's lifting others. I know when I do that, it lifts me.

Anyway, I am grateful for what everyone has given me.

Hugs,
Lynn
 
Aden, and everyone else.

I felt I had to respond because there is a chance (MORE than that, if I've been catching the subtle nuances in this thread) that what you've posted, and how others respond, can be misconstrued as hostility.

Not the place for it. I won't stand for it, and it's not conducive to the healing that is supposed to be the purpose of this site.

Having said that, however, you raise some valid points, both here and in your other thread. What IS the purpose of MaleSurvivor? First and formost, it's a resource and support for MALE SURVIVORS of sexual abuse. This can't be forgotten.

Secondly, it is a resource for those who love and support the survivor in the "real world." It's here to help them understand what the person they know is going through, and perhaps find ways of helping them deal and cope with it.

But we must also not forget that we can be difficult to deal with as well, causing them equal pain when we are hostile or lash out. This is where the F&F forum also comes in.

It is a place for people to vent and ask for love and support. Same as everywhere else here. It's what we all want and need.

As for writing style. I know you meant to use humor to make a point, Aden, but personal writing style is an extention of their personality. It's also a way for people to get their thoughts in order so they can see what they ARE thinking. Some may not know and use their posts here to have their ideas take shape. To make light of this can be harmful and hurtful, even when we don't MEAN for it to be.

Aden, the site IS for us, but it's also for others seeking information ABOUT us to HELP us. It's also a place for them to rant on about how WE make THEM feel. WE don't mean to hurt others, but it's the nature of the trauma we faced that makes it inevitable.

Just my 2 Europennies (the exchange rate is making U.S. currency more difficult to deal in :D ) worth.

Peace and love to all.

Scot
 
Hey, everybody. I've been part of this community on and off for over a year now and this thread is easily the most important one I've come across. I missed a few days reading it, though, and just can't go back to catch up on it all. I think I've got the main points, though.

IS F AND F HOSTILE GROUND FOR MALESURVIVOR?
Not at all! I'm actually getting emotional writing this because family and friends have supported me so much when I needed it so much.

Dealing with childhood abuse as an adult was very hard and confusing for me. When I told my wife, she minimized what the matter at first. (Is that all?) This hurt, but I found support here, and suggestions for continuing the conversation with my wife. Sometimes, when I just read without posting, I gained a sense of what this might mean for her. In other words, I realized this is not just about getting support, but giving it. And that family and friends have real pain.

How could I call this hostile ground when these people facilitated my healing?

WHAT ABOUT THE COMPLAINTS

O.k. sometimes I did not like what I saw at F and F. But that could be said for any thread anywhere on this site. There may have been one or two times (literally that's the maximum) when I wanted to stick up for malesurvivors but didn't because I thought it would be unfair to family and friends. They put up with a lot of crap and deserve/need some space where they can share without having to explain or apolagize to us.

WHAT ABOUT RULES
I trust (do I have a choice) people not to go to a malesurvivor thread unless they belong there. My understanding is that family and friends is not restricted. I have now notice clear titles asked malesurvivors to keep out and I think that is a good thing, a very fair request. When I see that, I respect it. If I don't see such a warning, I assume things entry is allowed. (And I don't think that such a request is hostile.)

WHO IS THIS SITE FOR (FOR WHOM IS THIS SITE INTENDED)

I need to renew my membership, but my conviction regarding this site and this organization is that it is for humanity. Yes, we are working towards the healing of male survivors of sexual abuse-assault, and the prevention of future cruelty, but men and boys are not the only one who benefit from this service.

Friends and family of survivors need support and guidance, and if Malesurvivor doesn't offer that, who the heck will. Not to mention, that if F and F get the help they need, they are more able to give what we need.

HOW SHOULD WE WRITE

Organized paragraphs don't to justice to the chaos and confusion we are dealing with here. If we can't let our thoughts and feelings flow freely, we might not ever work through them. Some times it helps just to get them out first, and sort them through later.

"Non stop complaint is not attractive." Aden, are to be commended for starting this thread with and honest, tender, and articulate post, but this comment that you wrote later I just don't get. God help us if anyone here is trying to keep their content attractive.

WHAT ABOUT JOKES

I'll be up front, when my brother abused me (now I think rape is the word for one particular incident, but I'm trying to deal with that), he laughed, and I did too because he said it was funny.

How much that plays a part in my aversion to sarcastic, bitter humor, I don't know. Bottom line, I don't find it constructive to blend criticism and humor. If the recipient of the criticism lets the joke go, hurt can linger. If the recipient addresses it, they are acused of not having a sense of humor and taking things too seriously.

O.k. I'm talking about something very personal and suddenly I switched to a very distand, abstract tone. It's confusing.

Humor can be good, but let's not use it as a cover for accusation/criticism.
 
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