Incursion into hostile ground...

Incursion into hostile ground...
A

Aden

Registrant
TRIGGER WARNING ( In replies further down this topic )

This is my first post on this forum. I am afraid of what I have to say. But I need to say it anyway. Some truth and a little humor. For those of you who love us, please try to understand.

When a sexually abused child takes charge of his own soul from within the body of a full grown and experienced man, the repercussions can be devastating. To everyone within his reach. I am not suggesting that you simply deal with it. It is a force of nature. Deal with it or not. I guarantee that all he wants is honest nonjudgmental love. Acceptance. Forgiveness. Hope.
Put a quiet warm hand on the back of his neck in a moment of need. Focus all of your positive energy into that hand and pray for the natural salvation of his well being. And expect nothing.
Give the love you want. Act on the hope you hold. And unless he raises his hand to hurt you, forgive his failure to fulfill your dreams.

He hurts. You hurt. Heal together. It is not his fault. Nor is it yours. Both of you must let up on the blame game.

And could we do paragraphs instead of stream of consciousness? (This is a joke) Organize your bombast! At least hold off on your condemnation long enough to indent or separate paragraphs! Take a breath! Non stop complaint is not attractive or reassuring.

Now I am expecting a bloody nose when next I read this forum. Why? Go figure.

Aden
 
Hi. This is my first post. I just had to say thanks for showing up in this section! Maybe it's the title ... "Family and Friends" that makes it difficult for survivors to post here?

Thanks for the words of wisdom. I tried, but my self esteem wasn't enough to make it through, I guess. I'm here to learn.

Thanks.
Emerald
 
I have not responded to anyone's posts here because this is too new with me. It took my partner nearly fifteen years to tell me. I have sought some help for myself to understand and to be a better help to him. But you have given some clear and simple ideas. Thank you for that.

Ian
 
Aden,

Welcome, and please don't expect the worst of us.

I am not suggesting that you simply deal with it. It is a force of nature. Deal with it or not. I guarantee that all he wants is honest nonjudgmental love. Acceptance. Forgiveness. Hope.
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He hurts. You hurt. Heal together. It is not his fault. Nor is it yours. Both of you must let up on the blame game.
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The advice you give in your post is sound, if somewhat simplified-- I don't think most of us would disagree with it, certainly not give you a bloody nose for it. In fact, much of the discussion on this forum is an expansion and examination of the things you're saying.

How do two people "heal together?" What enables us to forgive his failures? What goes into the very difficult choice to "deal with it or not?" What does it mean for us, as people and as partners, to act on hope, or to expect nothing? And can you do both of those things at once?

Secondary survivors, especially those of us who've spent years in that role, do need a place where they can discuss that stuff. I'm sure I don't have to tell you it's more complicated than it first appears.

The other very worthwile and important function of this forum is that it gives friends and family a place to come to terms with disclosure. Hearing about the SA of a loved one can produce strong emotions not entirely unlike the ones a survivor himself feels-- that's why people use the term "secondary survivor." And, as you've said, there are some of us who have experienced additional hurt and betrayal through the actions of survivors.

It's important for people just learning about the abuse in a friend or partner's life to have a safe place to vent those emotions, to learn about them and be validated. It's especially important if they are supporting a survivor during this same time. If they have their own betrayal and anger to process, that needs to be understood and validated too. Personally, I never had a problem accepting that my boyfriend wasn't to blame for his acting out. But my acceptance of that didn't make my hurt and anger disappear.

I think it may be some of these posts that you read as condemnation and complaint. It's natural that if these are the emotions we're bringing here to keep them separate from our own relationships, they might also come across as triggering or judgmental to some survivors. I think some well-intentioned F&F posts do trigger survivors and I think that may be part of why. I've heard at least one of the survivors on this site say that he reads people's first posts with the expectation that they'll be triggering-- it might be a good rule to follow in this forum too, for different reasons.

Aden, I hope you'll stick around and read more here, it's not all hostile, it's all hard work but that's not the same thing. Relationships are tough for everyone and probably tougher on survivors, and the partners here represent different types of relationships at all different stages. Like everything else, you have to figure out what you can use and leave the rest. ;)

SAR
 
I am brand new here as of yesterday. I want to say all involved here have been so helpful to me. I am a wife. I have suffered for 2.5 years in a wonderful relationship things I just couldnt put my finger on. I knew about what happened to my husband prior to our getting married, but had no idea until recently that the marry-go-round we have been on living on actually stemmed from this.
Call me ignorant, but my husband masked it so well that I feel as if I have been Alice falling down the well wondering what in the heck was going on. NONE OF IT HAS MADE SENSE!
Now finally, I am relieve to say.....EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE.
Your words are so helpful in my working with my honey. He is so kind and gentle, yet so hurt and angry. I see that in my actions instead of helping him in the past, I have hurt him constantly by trying to get him to do things he wasnt capable of doing.
I need direction, and the surviors are my touch-stones......my teachers in helping me evolve and heal with the man I love. I too am a victim of this circumstance. I too have been in emotional whirlwind of pain. I want to find peace in this for both him and myself.
At the same time the f and f in here are my advocates, and reality checks. I have been so distraught, I swear sometimes I felt like I was on candid camera.....
because one minute it was as it should be between a husband and wife......and the next I felt like I was just thrown off a wild bull. And I didnt even know I bought the ticket for the ride!
Please know we can learn so much from each other.
I think we crave that.
I will not be a victim. You all, this forum....are educating me to be the spouse of a survior. I am a survior by proxy.
I cant say though, that it doesnt hurt.
My husband has 28 years of shielding himself and dealing with things I have only just experienced.
I feel like I have stepped off an emotional cliff.


Take care, and peace be with all.
 
Aden, What have F&F been missing? You.
You're analogy is spot on, something that I could never have put into words so comprehensivelly.

I would expect to see this in the preface of a really good book for survivors. I tend to read the preface of a book and decide to buy it, or put it back on the shelf. I would definitely buy yours.

You have a very creative talent in thinking, something that is so uncommon in the World.

It is strange that when we do really speak from our inner self, that we expect ridicule or hurt, because that is what we always grew up with.

Our hard wiring was damaged, but our inner thinking is always so much more thought out, and we sometimes/always expect the ridicule, so we shut up and put up.

Spot on post,

ste
 
I've re read the original post several times.

What I am able to comprehend or understand in the posting is that as a partner to a male survivor -- I should give all with my support, expect nothing from him in return -- and what I do post comes across as non stop complaints. Which in turn makes me appear unattractive and non reassuring.
Thank you for validating the message that my separated spouse has been telling me for a very long time, but not so elequently (sp).
May your journey be a peaceful one,
Sammy
 
Sammy,

Short, sweet, direct and a touch of satire. Much better! I had expected a broken nose, two black eyes, and the immediate need for a plastic surgeon to reconstruct my chewed off ears. But what I got was a slightly defensive, self doubting rebuff.

No, you should not give everything you have and expect nothing in return. You should give everything you can and expect as little as possible.

It is in no way my intention to validate your estranged spouse. I dont know him or give a fig about him. But if he has been telling you these things and I (a total and uninvolved stranger) seem to reaffirm those things, then there may be some validity to the assessment.

Male survivors have to face some pretty harsh truths about themselves and their relationships. And apparently so do some of their partners. I wrote some things specifically for you, to help you, to show you what I saw. It wasnt for you Hubby. It was FOR you. In your favor. To your assistance.

I did not call you out. You saw yourself in what I wrote. You have enough awareness of where you are to use that awareness in a powerfully positive way. Should you chose to do so.

Your husband was a victim. You dont have to be a victim of a victim. Instead you could be a pillar of strength for him. Or not. It is a choice.

Aden
 
Aden & others- I always very much appreciate the guys participation on this board- and i am glad to have Aden's reactions to things read here- am constantly trying to understand more but I sure understand the bottom post too.

But as I edit i want to say that this strands title says it all- the core of the problem when we're perceived as hostile, as the "enemy" vs being perceived as desperately wanting to be supportive. i'd say it's incursion into loving ground , not hostile ground and that very misperception is at the core of the craziness described above. and again thanks for posting here- we do need the dialogue! An
 
Aden,
Those of us who participate in the F& F have been asked to follow the guidelines and not post in the male survivor forum. I respect that, it has been suggested more than once that if a F&F has a comment or ? for a male survivor to post it in this forum and to notify a moderator so that they can contact the male survivors.
I wrote some things specifically for you, to help you, to show you what I saw. It wasnt for you Hubby. It was FOR you. In your favor. To your assistance.

I did not call you out. You saw yourself in what I wrote. You have enough awareness of where you are to use that awareness in a powerfully positive way. Should you chose to do so.
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I am unsure exactly what it is you wrote "specifically for me", but if you did please re write them so that I know you are posting this directly to me, not to the entire F&F, it would have saved some confusion for me.

You also are aware enough of your language skills to use your own awareness in a powerfully positive way, should you choose to.

1) this is not hostile ground, as so implied in your title

2)
And could we do paragraphs instead of stream of consciousness? (This is a joke) Organize your bombast! At least hold off on your condemnation long enough to indent or separate paragraphs! Take a breath! Non stop complaint is not attractive or reassuring.
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You stated this was a joke, but your language used was specific enough to understand for even the simpliest of minds to read into this that the way some posters write and post you find as "complaints", unattractive nor reassuring. This forum should be a "safe place" for partners which includes not being criticized either indirectly nor directly on any matter.

Yes, I did find your post offensive enough to respond to it. Over the past approximate year or so I have seen far too many argumentative postings go on when someone intentionally tosses in a "hidden hostile" posting.

Quite simply, I stay out of the male forums, as do most f&f (some newer posters make mistakes) -- perhaps your comments regarding partners of survivors could be kept to the male forums.
Simply -- I'll stay on my side of the fence if you stay on your side.
Sammy
 
The purpose of the family and friends forum is posted at the top of the page:
Open discussion for male survivors and their families and friends.
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It is not meant to be hostile, and I don't believe it is. In fact the overwhelming majority of the posters here handle themselves with grace and compassion, and are more than willing to go out of their way to keep this community friendly.

I'd like to see a real open dialogue that discusses some of the points made in Aden's original post and in the responses. But I don't think that can happen if people come into a discussion with an attitude that says "accept what I have to say, and then be quiet about it."

There is a perception among some male survivors, which many F&F rightfully find offensive, that once a partner or family member has made the choice to support a survivor, she no longer has a right to vocalize and get validation for her own feelings when that choice becomes difficult, and that her pain should always come second.

Aden, I don't know if that's what your post is meant to imply or even if it's what you believe. But I would suggest that such an opinion does not take into account the depth and reality of any long-term relationship. And I'd further suggest that coming into a forum like this with such a belief has more to do with any perceived hostility than whatever existed on the forum prior to that.

Please don't devalue or degrade the real pain and hard work that you see here.
 
Well put SAR. There is pain we suffer too, particularly great at times. This post initially made me feel like I as a spouse of a survivor had no right to question, expect anything from, or get validation for how I feel from my spouse.

Thank you for putting in to words what I was thinking.

Wifenneed
 
Here are $0.02. USD.

To Everyone: I do not AT ALL think that A. meant to imply that we have no "rights" in a relationship - and A. please forgive if I am putting words in your mouth.

What I, personally, absorbed from the original post, was a wistful longing & plea for the kind of love that ALL of us dream about - unconditional, compassionate, undemanding.

And - I feel that A. is being realistic about curbing our expectations - but perhaps we need to clarify that those expectations are fluid & often change over the life of a relationship AND over the course of a healing process.

Let's look at an analogy: when someone is suffering through a physical illness, we who love that person are often subjected to a bewildering arsenal of emotional weaponry from the sufferer: sometimes we can call it to the person's attention - when it is appropriate and when it is helpful. Sometimes we just gotta know when to back off & shut up.

As Our Dave often says - Survivors are notoriously difficult people to deal with: this is a given, it's part of the package.

This is why so many Survivors opt NOT to be in relationships - because they KNOW this pattern & bec. they are honorable people, they CHOOSE not to subject others to their own internal lack of control.

But for those who DO decide to pursue a relationship, it is critical for EVERYONE to remember that SA or no SA, PTSD or no PTSD, normal or totally screwed up - Love brings about more Love, Anger brings about more Anger. Unexpressed resentment that is left to fester, violent language & name-calling, invalidation through silence - all of these testing behaviors are abusive. Those who are subjected to them - whether Survivors or Partners - have a responsibility to THEMSELVES to respond & object. If not, there is no Self-Love & without Self-Love, there is no other kind of Love possible.

Respectfully,

K54
 
Aden said:
No, you should not give everything you have and expect nothing in return. You should give everything you can and expect as little as possible.
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and Kolisha said:
I feel that A. is being realistic about curbing our expectations - but perhaps we need to clarify that those expectations are fluid & often change over the life of a relationship AND over the course of a healing process.
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Here is my very big problem with lowered expectations at any phase of recovery/ relationships.

No matter who is asking that a partner lower the expectations of the survivor, the message underneath is a LACK OF TRUST IN THE SURVIVOR.

I have seen survivors and F&F alike display this lack of trust in the form of lowered expectations. Some examples are:

A partner who takes on or wishes s/he could take on recovery work that must be done by the survivor, because "he needs my help" or "he has always relied on me for advice/stability/to fix things" or "he knows I am a take-charge person and wouldn't have told me unless he wanted me to do this" -- or a survivor who holds the partner responsible for his success/failure in his own recovery work

A survivor or partner who excuses continued abusive/ disrespectful actions because of SA history

A partner who dwells on and continually brings up past wrongs or acting out

A partner who goes without his/her needs met for extended periods of time in the relationship as an "act of love" or "committment", or a survivor who demands this from a partner

A partner who focuses all of his/her positive energy on the survivor instead of meeting his/her own needs, or a survivor who demands this from a partner

It is my very strong opinion that all of these are a piece of the same thing, and it boils down to a lack of trust.

We have to trust-- believe, and expect, and not obsess-- that the survivors we love will do their own recovery work, will live up to their potential as honest, caring partners, will ask for and accept forgiveness when they are ready to deal with the pain they've caused us, will maintain their own boundaries and respect ours.

If we lower our expectations, we are sending the message that we do not trust the survivors to do these things. We are disempowering them-- taking the power OUT of their hands, when we and they should be demanding that they regain the control and mastery of their lives that was first taken from them when they were abused.

Let's face it-- as important as the role of a loving partner is to some people's recovery, as much as we all need others-- Survivors got to where they are today because of their own inner resources. There was a time in each of their lives when they handled this on their own. If they were so weak and untrustworthy as we would make them out to be when we are trying to rescue and justify, they wouldn't have ever gotten to this point.

If I may make an analogy of my own:

If I never ask my daughter to help me clean her room, or demonstrate how it should be done, but wordlessly pick up after her while she is playing or asleep or at school, how will she ever learn to clean the room herself?

If I never pick up anything of hers, and neglect her room until it is too messy to play in and all her toys are lost and broken, is it fair of me to expect that she would just figure out how to clean it herself if she really wanted it clean?

Cleaning a room may not seem like a big deal to an adult who's lived in relative order for much of his/her life, but it requires a set of skills, some of which are over a small kid's head.

As a parent, I had to learn what was realistic and appropriate to ask of her at different stages of her development, and be patient but firm in asking her to meet my appropriate expectations. As she gained the ability to perform more complicated tasks, I raised my expectations.

Of course my boyfriend is not a child, and it is not my responsibility to teach him communication (or housecleaning) skills as I do my children.

When partners come here, they should be learning how to set and re-evaluate expectations that are both realistic and trusting. At times, in the beginning, we can have expectations that are too high and we should examine that. But I think mostly we set expectations too low and get upset (or complain, or nag, or blame) because we magically want the survivor to act above the level at which we trust him and give him permission to act.

Believing that a relationship where all is given and nothing is expected will mature and grow stronger is, in my opinion, about as sensible as believing that a child who is never expected to pick up her toys will wake up one day wanting and knowing how to keep a room clean all on her own. It is also about as loving.
 
My wife expects alot from me. She expects me to get on with my recovery. She expects me to be the best man I can be, regardless of past trauma.

She expects me to provide for our family - because I told her I would.

She expects me to protect our family - because I told her I would.

She expects me to love, honor, and cherish her - because I vowed that I would.

She expects a shining knight on a white stallion - I endeavor to live up to that.

When I was having problems with rage, she expected me to direct it away from her - I did, because she's the love of my life.

When I was having problems in bed, she expected me to be trusting and open - I did, even though it was the hardest thing I've ever done.

She has high expectations, and I love it. I have a lofty goal. Without goals, we stagnate.

I expect her to love me even though I don't always live up to her expectations - and she does.

I expect her to leave me and file for divorce if I ever abuse her or our children - and she will.

Being an SA survivor gives me no license to hurt others. I have hurt others, and I have tried to make ammends since I know what hurt does to a person.

IMHO, the best thing my wife can do is expect alot. Forgive lapses, but expect progress. Leave if there's abuse of any kind. Hold me responsible for my own actions. My abuser took no responsibility - I am better than that.
 
Dear dmcdd-
IMHO, the best thing my wife can do is expect alot. Forgive lapses, but expect progress. Leave if there's abuse of any kind. Hold me responsible for my own actions. My abuser took no responsibility - I am better than that.
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I really appreciated your post as i have all of these- that last thing you said got me to thinking- I wonder if the biggest factor in how we're treated is whether the CAS has held their abuser responsible- something I sense my bf hasn't done yet. I anticipate that being key to consistent progress and he has said that too - would it be right to say that without that (the responsibility being put unequivocally on the abuser) the unresolved anger can only get projected unto the wrong people- either the survivor himself wherein he gets depressed and down on himself or the family and freinds and especially those closest to him and safest to throw the anger on.
I rumple up inside when my bf talks about needing to forgive himself for being a survivor ! cause I know the responsibility is not at all his and I feel like it prevents it being put where it totally belongs instead. I'll be glad when that day comes. And I like all that was said about trusting the survivor- of course when that trust feels so betrayed we find ourselves here "ranting" in our disappointment but we all want so much to hope, trust and believe, it's just a lonely place to be when it's only the two of you and he doesn't yet believe in his own power.
This is such a good place~ thanks again to all! An
 
dmcdd

Thank you for your post. I hate the abuse that has occurred to my husband. I hate what it has done to him and our family. That being said I can not always use his abuse as an excuse for everything he has done hurtfull or harmfull. He is a victim but he is also an adult and must take responsibility for his actions. I will stand by him and support him but he must try to succeed and have hopes, dreams and goals for the future. It was just nice hearing a SA survivor say those words.
 
Lets use my ex-wife as an example.

I cared for a 3 acer, heavily wood lawn, a 2500 sq. ft. garden, cleaned both bathrooms and the kitchen, mopped the floors, vacuumed and shampooed the carpets, took care of all the typically male responsibilities around the house (gutters, painting, installations, repairs, snow removal etc.) And my job required 60-80 hours a week. Figure up the time and effort required for all of that!

She gave the kids everything they wanted, and required nothing of them in terms of help or discipline. I cooked most of my own meals. Her kids didnt like the kind of food I eat. She and the kid lived on Hamburger Helper and Pizza. And she frequently complained that I didnt do enough laundry and that we didnt have enough money. In all of the years that we were married (10) we never once had a disagreement where I was right. She neither apologized nor compromised. Finally, she got fed up with my laziness and inattention, used our savings to pay off all of the debts in her name, bought herself a new washer & dryer, a new car for her daughter, and changed the locks on the house. Why? Because I was too moody.

Thank God and Greyhound...

Now I agree with all of you who believe that partners have a right to reasonable expectations from their mates. The key word being REASONABLE. Sometimes it is a good idea to back up and ask ourselves if our expectations from our partners are compatible with their present ability.
Maybe by rights you should never have to forgive an others weakness. But love forgives none the less.

I am not trying to defend any bodies bad behavior here. It is just that sometimes our assessment of a situation can be really one sided. You know how your partners actions affect you. But do you know how your actions, demands, expectations affect your partner?

The example of my ex-wife is extreme. Just luck (or poor judgment) I guess. But the point is, she never had a clue that she was unable to see the other side of things. She considered herself to be a self-sacrificing help mate, long suffering and companionate. After 10 years of that attitude, the divorce was like the grace of God descending. Salvation!

All that I am suggesting is that before you pass harsh judgments on your partners, take a long look in the mirror. Are you the saint you think yourself to be? Im not. I was moody! But not all of my bad attitude was the result of CSA.

Some men are born irritable, some men become irritable, and some men have irritability thrust upon them... :p

Aden
 
Aden - You rock! it takes guts to look at yourself and actually see what is there. You must be one awasome human being.

Having said that, when push comes to shove, it is the two people involved in the situation that ultimately deal with it. Even with all the information contained here and elswere, it is my responsibility to decide my actions and be accountable for the results of those decisions.

I have been doing some serious reality living in the past 12 months and have realized that and more. THe sadest thing to me now is doing "the same thing over and over and expect different results". :)

Living in reality and holding oneself accountable is TOUGH. But hoe can one even beging to like the person one is is one is a stranger to him or her.

Moral of the comment: we all are fallible. Refusing to see it, acknowledge it, and deal with it is what hurts most. (IMHO)

Peace.
 
Wow-theres quite a lot of stuff going on in this post. Soemtimes, it's just not as easy as being there for them, understanding them, being patient.I have done all that. Somebody said placing a comforting hand on the back of his neck? My b/f recoils when I do that. Sometimes I can't touch him anywhere.And when I realize not to take it personally and where he is in his mind at that point, I try to comfort him with words and try to get him to understand that MINE is a LOVING touch, and NOT the hand of his abuser.
I am sitting here KNOWING that I have done everything in my power to be there for him, but being made to believe that I have done nothing.
 
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