Ignorance Personified Stephen Fry

[KMCINVA]

This really is disturbing and sadly I know people who also share his ignorance. To speak as he spoke shows ignorance, intolerance and pure lack of compassion for something he knows so little about--CSA

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/stephen-fry-which-child-sexual-abuse-victim-do-you-think-changed-their-mind-about-trigger-warnings-a6980546.html



Stephen Fry, which child sexual abuse victim do you think changed their mind about trigger warnings when you told them to 'grow up'?
Victims of abuse or rape are not 'self pitying', they're just taking care of their mental health – and that's something Stephen Fry should understand
Harriet Williamson @harriepw 6 hours ago7 comments




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Writer, actor and broadcaster Stephen Fry attacked the use of 'trigger warnings' in literature

In an interview with Dave Rubin on the American talk show ‘Rubin Report’ yesterday, the writer, actor, presenter, and all round national treasure Stephen Fry decided that "self pity" by survivors of child sexual abuse was an appropriate target for his ire.

Fry’s argument focused on censorship and the “deep infantilism” he perceives in today’s society. Thee discussion included mentions of the unsuccessful Oxford University petition to remove a statue of colonialist Cecil Rhodes and the application of so-called "trigger warnings" to literature.

Fry remarked that many great plays contain scenes of rape and murder, including Shakespearian classics such as Titus Andronicus and Macbeth. "They’re terrible things and they have to be thought about, clearly," Fry said, "but if you say you can’t watch this play… [because] it might trigger something when you were young that upset you once, because uncle touched you in a nasty place, well I’m sorry.

"It’s a great shame and we’re all very sorry that your uncle touched you in that nasty place – you get some of my sympathy – but your self pity gets none of my sympathy. Self pity is the ugliest emotion in humanity. Get rid of it, because no one’s going to like you if you feel sorry for yourself. Just grow up."

The language Fry uses is so utterly patronizing that it strips his wider points, about the inability of some to engage with complex issues, of any real value. To belittle someone’s childhood experience of being abused by a family member and reduce it to ‘uncle touched you in a nasty place’ is deeply callous and irresponsible.

Fry is a well-respected public figure, an entertainer and an intellectual. For anyone who has suffered a sexual trauma, in childhood or adulthood, to hear him tell them to "grow up", that they are "unlikeable" if they have not come to terms with what happened to them, that their emotions are "ugly", is hugely damaging.

Survivors of sexual abuse aren’t waiting around hoping that Fry will feel sorry for them. They are trying to heal and get on with their lives, without being constantly reminded of the event. Which is why trigger warnings are sometimes useful.

Not everyone who suffers from post traumatic stress disorder or has been a victim of a crime such as rape feels that trigger warnings are necessary or helpful. That's because all people are different. Some feel that trigger warnings imply a sense of fragility and make subjects more difficult to broach; others, as the writer Laurie Penny stated in an essay for the New Statesman, describe trigger warnings as facilitating openness and debate, and allowing people to make adult decisions about what’s best for their mental wellbeing.



Deciding that you’re not ready to engage with a book, a film, a play or a social situation that could cause a panic attack or prompt flashbacks, or be otherwise damaging to your mental health, is an example of self care.

Survivors of trauma and abuse are not cry babies or whiners. They are not interested in shutting down debate or limiting artistic expression where it relates to taboo issues. In fact, it is in the interest of survivors that we do create and discuss culture that explores traumatic events. One of the best ways to combat rape is to educate others about the reality of rape; exploring rape in film, literature and on television in a way that doesn’t titillate the viewer, but focuses on the effect on the victim and their process of recovery, is one way to do that.

Fry’s comments about our tendency to approach issues in a black and white way, unable to handle the slightest hint of complexity, are worth discussing. We are all infantilised by reductionist debates around issues such as immigration, the EU, the penal system and the threat of terrorism, and when we’re exposed to reporting on the attire of politicians rather than their policies. This shuts down debate far more often than using trigger warnings.

Fry has done much in his career to raise awareness about mental illness through his candour about his diagnosis of bi-polar disorder. Surely he can see that comments such as "grow up" and "stop feeling sorry for yourself" repeat exactly the language used to shame those managing mental health problems throughout their lives, as he has campaigned against?

 

[king tut]

I can see the quotes but I can't help but think that this has been taken out of context.

His choice of language is poor, but the point he is trying to make is nothing to do with sexual abuse but to do with the controversy in the UK over people trying to destroy and censor history and the arts because people feel offended. It sounds like this conversation (haven't seen the whole thing) was actually about the Cecil Rhodes statue (slavery) and about not censoring history just because it hurts or because it may offend people.

But the fact is he wasn't sensitive in his use of analogy and didn't think about how survivors may interpret it, but as a comedian who often uses those kind of turn of phrases and shock then it is not too surprising that he may draw upon that kind of language.

The clip that is shown- a short clip that shows part of the self pity quote, looks to me like Fry is suffering from depression himself in the video, it almost looks like what he is saying is more referring to his own position and what he has learnt personally from his experience and career rather than a direct rule to apply to anybody else. But it does make him look like a dick. Something about Frys persona just doesn't seem right in that interview, he is never that serious, so I don't know, maybe something else at play there.

Remember Stephen Fry is a massive supporter of mental health charities, he is probably the most famous and prominent person in the UK to be diagnosed with depression and bipolar, and to have openly said he has tried to commit suicide on numerous occasions, and has been a hard drug user, and has openly talked about his bad times in an all boys boarding school (although not explicitly said he was abused, he has hinted at that).

I don't know, it just seems to me like Fry was talking about something he is very passionate about (the arts and Oxford etc) and used a really harsh (and offensive, ignorant etc) analogy to try to emphasise his point and passion over it- but obviously that was a big mistake.

 

[EdfromNYC]

Glad you wrote this, king tut. Fry spoke idiotically off the cuff but he's got a point about self-pity. Self-pity is a part of life but when it becomes the focus of life, it is truly debilitating and suffocating and deadening. I know. I spent many, many years in the self-pity mentality and it got me nowhere.

If one does a search of quotes around "self pity", one will see how many people over the years have found self-pity to be one of the worst aspects of human condition because it can swallow us whole. This doesn't mean we don't deserve a empathy, compassion and even pity but it kept me locked in a very deep place and it kept me a victim. I think Fry's point was to call out the "victim-ese" language but too directly and too harshly.

 

[KMCINVA]

I hear king tut's position but unfortunately the message of the suffering of the victim gets lost with the words he chose. Public figures need to be more sensitive to how they categorize groups of people. It is not always "self-pity" the victim suffers from but rather how they began to think of themselves once the abuse began. Also my opinion is that his words give license for others to say look at the survivor-self pity--get over it. Wrong the survivor needs support and compassion and understanding. How many survivors have been denied this as well as professional help, how many have found themselves in situations where people dismissed them, did not believe them--and how does this impact the self worth of the survivor?

I agree self-piety can be self destructive, but maybe many survivors are not suffering from self piety but rather loss of self because of the abuse. Only changing how we think will allow us to move ahead. How do we change how we think? And how public figures choose to categorize us will impact how other think of CSA survivors.

Kevin

 

[little big man]

People who point the finger at others without looking at their own behavior. Self rightousness. Most people have not looked closely at themselves. I bet those public figures live at the shallow end of the pool.

 

[kwawk]

It is always funny to me when people are referred to in such terms as "well-respected public figure" or "intellectual". By whose criteria? Their own? Their sheeple? Famous idiotic dipshttts spout personal opinions to get attention as if they had any automatic legitimacy (which they don't), and media whores publicize what they have to say, if it sounds juicy enough to incite response. This guy is like Ann Coulter in drag; you don't even know if he really believes what he says, or if it's just pseudo-entertainment to get a rise out of people

 

[Obi]

personally, while he may have meant what he said in a different light. how he did say it, though, was very wrong.

what if a bunch of people saw that, who haven't been abused, took it to mean the same way that kevin and i took it to mean? that could create a negative reaction towards survivors that is ignorant and uncalled for. when i read it i immediately thought this guy is being totally dismissive to us survivors and the struggles we go through. that we aren't recovering fast enough for him. that is the reaction i got. what if a lot of people, who aren't survivors, came away thinking "yeah, they need to stop whining and grow up. just get over it 'cause that happened so long ago." that goes against everything we have been fighting for.

he may not have meant it that way, but it sure sounded like that was how he said it.

 

[KMCINVA]

I think people need to be more sensitive. I know certain people who would jump on these words to hide the truth of CSA-blame the victim, not the abuser or even look at themselves for the damage they have done to a victim/survivor because of their insensitivity and callousness. I heard it all--get over it, it could not be that bad, it didn't happen because you did not tell anyone until now, dissociation any undergraduate psychology major and nurse knows it is not real, trauma and PTSD that does not happen to survivors, triggers--bull spitting on someone like the priest did, locking the survivor in a room like when in the church cellar are not triggers, my T said this does not happen to CSA survivors and so much more. Lies on top of lies, incorrect choice of words, ignorance and Frye's words, may be not meant to, just gives false credibility to those trying to justify their words and actions toward a survivor. Maybe I am sensitive to this because of what I have lived.

What he meant may have been lost in the words he chose. My reaction was as Obi described when I read this article.

Most survivors are struggling and not whining, they are looking to rid themselves of pain and hurt that could not be processed because a child's mind cannot understand or process something so heinous as rape, sexual touching and grooming. People who have not lived it, do not understand the depth of this trauma, the loss the survivor incurred when the abuse took place.

I guess people have given me kindness, support and compassion and they are the ones that helped me move forward while others who sounded like Frye, treated me as a leper, an outcast are the ones who pushed me back and nearly killed me--some say murderers they would be-harsh in my beliefs. Words and actions can kill--maybe tangentially allowing those that inflict or trigger the pain of the abuse to say not my fault and wash their hands. Are they just accessories to the loss of life? I am coming off a very bad place where death was a viable option for me because of the words and actions of others who callously have lied, neglected to tell the truth of the abuse and their involvement and lies relating to the triggers, their dismissal of the abuse, PTSD, flashbacks and dissociation. When I read his words I thought of others who are in a bad place and what these words could do them.

Sorry for the long winded tirade, I want survivors to be respected and treated with compassion and dignity.

Thank you

Kevin

 

[Obi]

Agree, Kevin.

Can't begin to count how many times I was told that it happened long ago that I should be over it by now.

Mr. Fry's words are damaging to survivors. I don't care if he meant it differently than what he said. Those are the words he chose to say and they could've done damage beyond repair to many survivors.

 

[EdfromNYC]

People are going to be insensitive. They have been to me. I forgive them for not knowing how to deal with an extremely sensitive topic. I don't look to provocative comedians for nuanced thoughts and expressions of those thoughts nor do I get outraged when they say something provocative nor do I blame them for the sensitivities of others. I am not one for regulating other's rights to say stupid things. My recovery from CSA does not depend on what one person I know barely anything about says in a one line statement that will be yesterday's news soon enough.